Does This Seem Fair?

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Was training at my Sensei's Dojo the other day when he asked me to take over classes so he could get a drink, talk with some of the leaving students etc. As he was talking to some of the students in the lobby, a couple of punk kids (I'd say 13, 14 at the oldest) walk by. They stop in front of the front window, the one kid pitches the bird into the Dojo and the other spit on the window. My Sensei pretty much burst outside, the one kid tried taking a swing at him so he grabbed the one kid by his shirt, picked him up and wiped off the spit stain...with the kid. The two kids ran off and we thought this would be the end of the incident.

Half hour later, the a police officer shows up saying that he's investigating a case of assault against my Sensei. All the students backed up my Sensei's story as to why he did what he did. The police officer said that he didn't believe us as we would 'obviously' back up our instructor. As he is in good standing with the police in our town they let him off with a warning, told him that if they ever heard of him 'assaulting' anyone they would be forced to fine him etc etc.

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

[MJS]

Was training at my Sensei's Dojo the other day when he asked me to take over classes so he could get a drink, talk with some of the leaving students etc. As he was talking to some of the students in the lobby, a couple of punk kids (I'd say 13, 14 at the oldest) walk by. They stop in front of the front window, the one kid pitches the bird into the Dojo and the other spit on the window. My Sensei pretty much burst outside, the one kid tried taking a swing at him so he grabbed the one kid by his shirt, picked him up and wiped off the spit stain...with the kid. The two kids ran off and we thought this would be the end of the incident.

Half hour later, the a police officer shows up saying that he's investigating a case of assault against my Sensei. All the students backed up my Sensei's story as to why he did what he did. The police officer said that he didn't believe us as we would 'obviously' back up our instructor. As he is in good standing with the police in our town they let him off with a warning, told him that if they ever heard of him 'assaulting' anyone they would be forced to fine him etc etc.

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

I can certainly see your instructors frustration. However, I do believe this in fact was an assault. Reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault). What I do find odd, is that he doesn't take your instructors word as to what happened, but he takes the word of a 13 or 14 yo?

In the future, it would be best for someone to get a solid description of the kids and call the police. Will they be able to locate the kids? Possibly, but at least there will be documentation in the event of future acts of vandalism.

[Christina05]

In the future, it would be best for someone to get a solid description of the kids and call the police. Will they be able to locate the kids? Possibly, but at least there will be documentation in the event of future acts of vandalism.[/quote]

I agree.Its always good to have it documented you never know if there will be further vandalism that will occur when no one is around

[Kacey]

Should the kids have done what they did? No. Nonetheless, I feel that your instructor's response was excessive - and became so the second he laid hands on one of them. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but word (and gestures) will never hurt me" - grabbing someone and "wiping the window" with them is not appropriate to what was said and done, especially when the first action was by children, and the response was by an adult.

[Drac]

Its WRONG, but its the law...In this galdammed sue happy society was gotta be real careful...

[14 Kempo]

My take on it is the same as with MJS as far as the story ... if they really had beileved the kids over the instructor, more would have been done. As with Kacey, I believe too much was done. At least here in California, there was no threat of bodily harm, so therefore nothing could be done. In agreement with others, file a report in case there is further vandalism.

[still learning]

Hello, Your Sensi should have just talk to the kids if they didn't run away.
In a calm lecture manner. (and maybe invite them join )

Your Sensi was WRONG and set the wrong role model for his students. One should be humble and show kindness.

No one was physcial hurt by the "trouble kids" that have NO respect of others as well as themselves.

Anger is learn thing....use too much? will get you into more trouble.

There is always more than one way to handle situtions.....anger does not work, violence in this case was not the right answer.

It takes a BIG minded person to handle this in a calm,cool headed manner...he could have turn it into an opportunity and invited those kids in (I don't think they would? ..but down the road? they might want to join because the Sensi treated them like a human being!)

Act of kindness ...work better most times!

If you were those kids and the Sensi caught your and treated you with kindness? How would you react the next time?

Aloha (always be humble, practice kindness and let this spread).

[Big Don]

My Sifu had a similar incident that he told me about. He grabbed the kid by the arm and walked to the kid's house and talked to his parents.

[newGuy12]

I swear, I'll never get it. I fear that I'll never understand this higher thinking. I can see that a person (me, or anyone else) should try to be a GOOD person, not cause any trouble, forgive others when they harm me. I understand that, and accept that.

BUT, if someone gives insult to a martial arts school?

???

The way I see it, that person is either:

1) Insane

2) REALLY ASKING FOR A BEAT-DOWN!!!

Now, in the case of '1', there's nothing to do. The person doesn't understand things well enough to live rightly with "the big group" (society).

In the case of '2', the way that I see it... Its just a dang shame that we live in a country where the law (and lawyers) are too quick to jump in the fray. Some young person who does that needs to be set straight!

Its a shame that the law could not be "worked around" by sending a young student to give chase and give him "THIS"! POW!

Now, OBVIOUSLY, judging from the above thread, I am wrong to feel this way. Furthermore, the ryu which I am trying to join now DEMANDS that the student be of good character before being taught the higher forms.

I am middle-aged now, so what's the point anyway? I will not be some great fighter, I should not fret if I am not judged to be of good enough character. But who can deny themselves? I am who and what I am, no?

Oh well, on to do push-ups AGAIN, hoping to get from 10 to 11 (the usual is 20, which I cannot do yet, weak as I am!!!).





Regards,

Robert

[Sensei Payne]

Kids are kids...but you have to stop and think...what adult made them think that they could actually do that?

[jks9199]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?

[Tez3]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?


I have to agree with this totally. The instructor went over the top. Tempting though it was to retailate he should not have done so. The kids were in the wrong no doubt and should have been taught a lesson but not like that.

[FieldDiscipline]

Funny though. And to be honest, who can really blame him?

[Carol]

I have a serious issue with an adult trained fighter beating on a child to prove a point. Yeah, the kids are idiots, that's fer sure....but that instructor was totally out of line.

At least when I did stupid stuff like that as a kid, I didn't do it to a martial arts school :lol2: (oh did I say that out loud?).

[stone_dragone]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...

I don't know. Speaking of which, I need to go be a parent...

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?

Those are words of wisdom right there from jks9199. The instructor did commit an assault and battery really for no reason. (he let his anger and emotions get the better of him) He would have been better to try and talk with the kids or to just take a description and call the police to make a report on vandalism. Fortunately no one was hurt.

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...




Yes.

[jks9199]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...

I don't know. Speaking of which, I need to go be a parent...

There's not really a question there.

The instructor is at fault for his actions & over-response.

The kids are at fault for their actions, which were rude & inappropriate, and even criminal in some states.

The parents are at fault for raising kids who'd do something like that.

But who is at fault isn't the issue; the instructor had the ability -- or should have -- to respond in more controlled and positive manner to everything else.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

The Martial Arts are not for retaliation or revenge but for self defense. Our training is supposed to make us better people of high character and in control of our own emotions.

Unfortunately, too many people are concerned with being able to kick someone else's butt that they don't pay attention to their real enemy- themselves.

Teachers have the responsibility of setting a good example for their students. Your teacher has set the example that it is OK to use MA on someone who is weaker than you and no threat to you physically just because they've insulted you. Your teacher did far more damage to his own reputation than an obscene gesture and spit on a window could have ever done.

_Don Flatt

[stone_dragone]

T
But who is at fault isn't the issue; the instructor had the ability -- or should have -- to respond in more controlled and positive manner to everything else.

No argument over this one!

[karate-dragon]

Seems to me that a Sensei would have a little more self-control and handle the situation in a little more level headed manner. What the kids did was wrong and disrespectful. But answering that by losing his cool and being aggressive to 14 year olds is equally wrong. I agree that being clear minded and calm and walking them back to their parents would have been a better tactic and would have been a better example to his own students.

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I want to thank everyone for their replies to this thread, and I do have to agree with all of you, that he was wrong in what he did and how he reacted. As a little bit of a follow up, he found out the names of the kids involved called them at their homes and appologized to them and their parents for what he did. He also offered each one of the kids a month of free classes if they wanted. They accepted and are doing quite well I must say!

[MJS]

I want to thank everyone for their replies to this thread, and I do have to agree with all of you, that he was wrong in what he did and how he reacted. As a little bit of a follow up, he found out the names of the kids involved called them at their homes and appologized to them and their parents for what he did. He also offered each one of the kids a month of free classes if they wanted. They accepted and are doing quite well I must say!



Glad to hear things worked out for everyone.

Mike

[Gordon Nore]

I have a serious issue with an adult trained fighter beating on a child to prove a point. Yeah, the kids are idiots, that's fer sure....but that instructor was totally out of line...

My sentiment, exactly. Hearing that Sensei "burst outside" and put hands on a middle-school aged kid over a walk-by-spitting and bird-flipping seems over the top to me. Flip this story around and suppose that Sensei had called the police over, we all know that the police would probably not have shown up.

Why?

Because in the grand scheme of things, the worst these kids are really guilty of is vulgarity and stupidity. It's distasteful and annoying, but I don't know that it's worthy of a dramatic response, since property was defaced (but not really damaged) and business was not really disrupted. Had Sensei walked outside, told them to clean up their mess and get lost, that would seem a proportional response.

My question: Is this a school where children are taught? If so, I would suggest this sets a rather thuggish example. I have no tears for the kids who pulled the stunt, but I do believe adults ought to know better.

[Gordon Nore]

I want to thank everyone for their replies to this thread, and I do have to agree with all of you, that he was wrong in what he did and how he reacted. As a little bit of a follow up, he found out the names of the kids involved called them at their homes and appologized to them and their parents for what he did. He also offered each one of the kids a month of free classes if they wanted. They accepted and are doing quite well I must say!



Sorry, Kennedy,

I jumped the gun and shot my mouth off before reading your final post. I'm glad things worked out, and I think your teacher made a better choice in the end.

[Loki]

My instructor has to sometimes scare off teens who come in to our studio, turn off the lights and leave, and the worst he ever got to was threatening.

I'm also of the opinion that the reaction was excessive. I think he should have grabbed him and told him not to mess with the dojo again, let him go and clean the spit off. I doubt the kids would have tried the same stunt again.

[later edit] It's nice to see it ended that way. They actually joined? Good for them, and good for your instructor!

[Gordon Nore]

...I'm also of the opinion that the reaction was excessive. I think he should have grabbed him and told him not to mess with the dojo again, let him go and clean the spit off. I doubt the kids would have tried the same stunt again...

In this instance I think that would still qualify as assault and could furthermore be interpreted as a threat.

[still learning]

Hello, We all over react at times. (Human beings are NOT perfect).You can be proud your Sensi understood this and said sorry to those kids and their parents.

At least the parents are more aware of the behaivor of their own kids and realize it was not the Sensi total fault.

Your Sensi was being humble and realize his errors. Glad to hear at least one of the kids is now a student.

Each sitution that happens in our life..can be a good learning lessons, if you accept it and make the best outcome of it.

Aloha ( from someone who made lots of mistakes and is still learning!)

[tempus]

The on interesting point is that when I was that young I would never had done what those kids did. Why? Becaue if my father found out he would have put me thru a wall. Hence I was never being a bad kid. Differnt times now I guess.

[Sukerkin]

A sadly true indictment of the 'triumph of the overly liberal', Tempus.

Glad to hear that the sensei at the heart of this tale had the fortitude to face up to the fact he'd made a mistake and do what he could to balance the scales. Well done that man.

[charyuop]

Your Sensei should have broken the little rascal's neck!!!

No, well kidding apart, maybe the reaction was over the edge, but what alse to do? I don't think your Sensei went out with the intention of assaulting the kid, but if I well read you said the kid tried to punch your Sensei. Going out there and trying to talk some sense into those kids and in reply receiving a punch I bet would have made lose temper to anyone.
Maybe just blocking the punch showing the kid he couldn't do much to him would have opened a window for your Sensei to talk to the kid...but hey, everyone can talk calmly from his desk behind a keyboard.

[CoryKS]

I had a similar experience. Turns out that 'assault' means that you gave someone the impression that you might hit them. Actually hitting them is 'battery'. Who knew?

I think that the sensei was wrong in this situation, just as I was wrong in mine. However, I think he gave those two a very valuable lesson in real world experience that was completely voided by the officer.

Which of these do you think contributes to the better behavior of our citizens?
1) The realization that, if you harass other people, you might suffer for it; or
2) The knowledge that you can do anything you want to others short of touching them, and then use the law to ruin their lives when they respond?

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Perhaps to add to my story I'll give you a little back info on where I'm from. This was a tiny town population of about 11 000 people. Kids who live in this town don't have much in the way of entertainment, and get bored very easily. There have been problems with spray painting, broken store windows, plants in the downtown area dumped and destroyed, the list goes on and on. And it seems the town keeps coming up with excuses, "they're just young" "they'll learn" etc etc. And as they're so young and so many it's hard for the police to really do a whole lot to stop them. We had the front window of our dojo smashed a few months before this happened, plus someone had tossed paintballs at our building which was not fun to clean off I don't mind telling you.

Was my Sensei wrong in how he reacted, yes for sure (though he could claim self defence as I stated the kid did take a swing at him)

Was he maybe just trying to make a stand and show the kids that they couldn't just get away with whatever they wanted...? I'll leave it up all of you to decide.

[DavidCC]

Well, a tricky situation for sure. Did the Sensei take a risky course, I think so. But will those boys have something to think about next tiem they are tempted to act that way again? I hope so. Sounds like the police might have done the right thing: let the Sensei know he was close to going over the line, and hopefully let the kids know they were over the line and the the Sensei is NOT in trouble for what he did. We don't know from the posts what the police said to the kids or their parents, I will assume they did the right thing.

Would the Sensei have been legally safe if he had detained the spitter until the polcie arrived in response to his vandalism complaint? "citizen's Arrest"???

-D

[Kreth]

Would the Sensei have been legally safe if he had detained the spitter until the polcie arrived in response to his vandalism complaint? "citizen's Arrest"???

-D
It's questionable with a juvenile involved. I can think of at least one incident when I was bouncing where we did just that with an adult. A guy was whacked out on some prescription drugs, and flailing around, throwing punches as we escorted him outside. We took him down and controlled him until the cops arrived.

[still learning]

Perhaps to add to my story I'll give you a little back info on where I'm from. This was a tiny town population of about 11 000 people. Kids who live in this town don't have much in the way of entertainment, and get bored very easily. There have been problems with spray painting, broken store windows, plants in the downtown area dumped and destroyed, the list goes on and on. And it seems the town keeps coming up with excuses, "they're just young" "they'll learn" etc etc. And as they're so young and so many it's hard for the police to really do a whole lot to stop them. We had the front window of our dojo smashed a few months before this happened, plus someone had tossed paintballs at our building which was not fun to clean off I don't mind telling you.



Was my Sensei wrong in how he reacted, yes for sure (though he could claim self defence as I stated the kid did take a swing at him)


Was he maybe just trying to make a stand and show the kids that they couldn't just get away with whatever they wanted...? I'll leave it up all of you to decide.


Hello, From the begging of time, the first man "Adam, his wife " and their childen....taughts us human behavior.

Those kids learn good is a nice thing to do....because one of other child did not receive as much attention....he/she learn by being bad....they got attention alright! Note: Adam was from a small village-population (7).

Parents that give lots of "Love and attention" to their kids and act as good role models. Find themselves with alot of good and caring kids/teens/young adults. (NOT ALWAYS).

Those kids who do not have caring and good role models to follow and lack love and attention....then to go "BAD" to get attention many times. (NOT ALWAYS TOO!).

We all need to feel love and we all need attention, (especially dogs) have you notice that!

Concept of martial arts: Adept the good side of the "dog" behavior!
YEP:" learn to wag your tail."

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

still_learning:

Excellent post and a very interesting thesis on the understanding of behaviour of juniors....if there is such thing as understanding the behaviour of juniors...

[charyuop]

But now that your Sensei has given those kids a free months at your dojo...is he using this free month to beat the crap out of them? hee hee J/K

[Touch Of Death]

Was training at my Sensei's Dojo the other day when he asked me to take over classes so he could get a drink, talk with some of the leaving students etc. As he was talking to some of the students in the lobby, a couple of punk kids (I'd say 13, 14 at the oldest) walk by. They stop in front of the front window, the one kid pitches the bird into the Dojo and the other spit on the window. My Sensei pretty much burst outside, the one kid tried taking a swing at him so he grabbed the one kid by his shirt, picked him up and wiped off the spit stain...with the kid. The two kids ran off and we thought this would be the end of the incident.

Half hour later, the a police officer shows up saying that he's investigating a case of assault against my Sensei. All the students backed up my Sensei's story as to why he did what he did. The police officer said that he didn't believe us as we would 'obviously' back up our instructor. As he is in good standing with the police in our town they let him off with a warning, told him that if they ever heard of him 'assaulting' anyone they would be forced to fine him etc etc.

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?Your intructor had no right to do that, but tell him I will buy him a beer if I ever see him.:drinkbeer
Sean

[Brandon Fisher]

Though I think the kids were wrong I think the response was over the top. I think he could have been much more in control of his response.

[dart68]

The picture I have of the incident is the sensei went outside to confront the kids (hopefully not physically) and one of them took a swing at him. Considering this, I think his response was completely appropiate, juviniles or not.

There are too many people (not just parents) who believe that only the LEOs should be the ones to take action in any incident. In many cases this is correct. The problem is that there is now a great many people, including children, who believe there are no real consequences to there actions.

I'm not saying that if someone keys your car that you should pound them into a bloody pile of goo, but there there has to be an immediate response that, I would hope, would cause the assailant to seriously think twice before doing that again.

[dart68]

Ahhhh.....

It's been nearly 24 hours since my post was the last one here. They don't call me the thread killer for nothing!

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

They don't call me the thread killer for nothing!

Sorry, would have responded earlier but I had to work. Guess I just killed your reputation!

I agree with you that there are way too many people doing wrong in the world today and not enough who want to stop them. But of course we have to consider our roles as citizens there's only so much you can do, as you said it's not as though you can take someone who keyed your car and key them.

I was once asked if a martial artist has obligations like a doctor. If a doctor is off duty and is say walking down the street and someone starts having a heart attack, are they not obligated to help? If a martial artist is walking down the street and say sees someone being unfairly beat on, do we have an obligation to stop and help. Granted they are in a totally different league, but it is something to consider.

I think my personal bottom line on what my Sensei did is, he did the right thing in teaching them a lesson but went about it the wrong way!

[dart68]

I was once asked if a martial artist has obligations like a doctor. If a doctor is off duty and is say walking down the street and someone starts having a heart attack, are they not obligated to help? If a martial artist is walking down the street and say sees someone being unfairly beat on, do we have an obligation to stop and help. Granted they are in a totally different league, but it is something to consider.



I don't think that a martial artist, or anyone else for that matter, has an legal obligation to stop and help. But there might be a moral obligation (another discussion). Most of the people I know couldn't just look the other way. I would try to help some way, even if it's just calling 911.

On the other hand, there are those that would like to litterally strap on a cape or something and go out and fight crime. Believe me, we've had a couple of those ilk coming into the dojo wanting to train. Pretty scary actually when you think about the mentality behind the thinking.

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

On the other hand, there are those that would like to litterally strap on a cape or something and go out and fight crime. Believe me, we've had a couple of those ilk coming into the dojo wanting to train. Pretty scary actually when you think about the mentality behind the thinking.


I know exactly what you mean I've had to deal with a couple of those people myself. They train for 6 months (sometimes less) and think that they could put on a red cape and boots and fly around and stop all the crime in the city! And I agree that it is pretty scary!