retaining female students?

[RachelK]

I am still the only female in my class *sigh* Our problem is not attracting women, but keeping them. Granted, we've never attracted huge numbers of women; they are generally outnumbered 3:1. But we manage to reel a few in. They try the class, sign up for a month, some even stick around for a few months. But they just don't last. I can't figure out why. Learning a martial art is a lot of work. But since when has that stopped women from learning a new skill? BTW I'm not writing about busy working mothers or women who may be too hard-pressed for time to dedicate themselves to martial arts. These are women who are largely in their 20s, do not have children, and many of them are already inclined towards athletics, sports, and fitness. So why don't they enjoy martial arts?

Part of it could also be the style I practice - Systema - is very close contact. That could be a turnoff for a woman in a class of mostly men, not because people behave inappropriately, but just because getting that close to strangers can be daunting. So I wanted to throw this out there to see if I can get some perspectives from people who practice other styles. I know we've discussed attracting female students, in many different threads. Has the topic of retaining female students ever come up for discussion? Does your class attract women, but have difficulty retaining them? I am curious if retention of female students is an issue in other schools, or is the retention rate about the same for men and women in your class?

-Rachel

[jks9199]

I am still the only female in my class *sigh* Our problem is not attracting women, but keeping them. Granted, we've never attracted huge numbers of women; they are generally outnumbered 3:1. But we manage to reel a few in. They try the class, sign up for a month, some even stick around for a few months. But they just don't last. I can't figure out why. Learning a martial art is a lot of work. But since when has that stopped women from learning a new skill? BTW I'm not writing about busy working mothers or women who may be too hard-pressed for time to dedicate themselves to martial arts. These are women who are largely in their 20s, do not have children, and many of them are already inclined towards athletics, sports, and fitness. So why don't they enjoy martial arts?

Part of it could also be the style I practice - Systema - is very close contact. That could be a turnoff for a woman in a class of mostly men, not because people behave inappropriately, but just because getting that close to strangers can be daunting. So I wanted to throw this out there to see if I can get some perspectives from people who practice other styles. I know we've discussed attracting female students, in many different threads. Has the topic of retaining female students ever come up for discussion? Does your class attract women, but have difficulty retaining them? I am curious if retention of female students is an issue in other schools, or is the retention rate about the same for men and women in your class?

-Rachel
Can you do an exit interview with some of the women who have left? If you can contact them, and see why they left, you'll have a better idea what's up. It may simply be that they were looking for a kickboxing aerobics class, and your program isn't what they want -- or some similar variation.

[donna]

I find the hardest thing for me as a female/mother/wife is the time most lessons are held. The earliest lessons are 6pm, some as late as 7.30pm. With trying to work around the kids sports needs(training etc), getting tea prepared, and all the other duties that happen at that time of night, I find it extremely hard to get to training. Especially if you dont have the approval or support of your spouse. If lesson times were a bit more user friendly ,I think female participation would increase.

[Kacey]

My retention of female students is about the same percentage as my retention of male students - but because I have fewer female students, I retain fewer overall.

[terryl965]

My wife would love to know how to get them to stay longer. It would differently be a plus for the school.

[stickarts]

Our retention for women is the same as for men. I would try and get some honest feedback from women still enrolled with you as well as from women who have left. if they are uncomfortable talking face to face, it can be with a written survey given to them with no name listed when they return it.

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

At the school where I study we once held a free self-defence class for women through the local YMCA. Originally 8 signed up. 5 showed up the first week. 3 showed up the second and third week. By the fourth two. By the fifth 1. Next week none. It was only an 8 week course 1 night a week for an hour. So the woman who had arranged the program called my instructor and told him the reason they had all quit....the self defence class was too realistic and too intense.

[RachelK]

Can you do an exit interview with some of the women who have left? If you can contact them, and see why they left, you'll have a better idea what's up. It may simply be that they were looking for a kickboxing aerobics class, and your program isn't what they want -- or some similar variation.Most of them sort of drift off gradually, but you are right, we should call them up and ask why they chose to stop training, that would be helpful. Thanks for the tip (and thanks to Donna for the same advice). However, if they were looking for a different sort of class, we do offer all kinds of classes. I train at a large school, and we've got lots of in-house styles as well as numerous instructors who rent the space, so if it's a question of taste, they could certainly find kickboxing or another style offered on premises.

I find the hardest thing for me as a female/mother/wife is the time most lessons are held. The earliest lessons are 6pm, some as late as 7.30pm. With trying to work around the kids sports needs(training etc), getting tea prepared, and all the other duties that happen at that time of night, I find it extremely hard to get to training. Especially if you dont have the approval or support of your spouse. If lesson times were a bit more user friendly ,I think female participation would increase.Of course we cannot accomodate everyone, but we do have a wide assortment of classes at various times, including early AM, mid-morning, noon, early evening, late evening, and weekend. I'm not saying that time constraints aren't an issue. I think women tend to have more extra-curricular activities than do men (please don't flame me for that one. It's just that every woman I know seems to be involved in one or more charities/networking groups/book clubs/professional organizations, etc.) The earliest class is 7 AM; the latest is 7:30 PM, and classes are offered 5 days a week. Of course, like any school, we hope to expand and offer more classes.

At the school where I study we once held a free self-defence class for women through the local YMCA. Originally 8 signed up. 5 showed up the first week. 3 showed up the second and third week. By the fourth two. By the fifth 1. Next week none. It was only an 8 week course 1 night a week for an hour. So the woman who had arranged the program called my instructor and told him the reason they had all quit....the self defence class was too realistic and too intense. I have to confess that we had a similar experience with offering a women's only course. We were hoping that Systema in a women's-only environment might be more appealing. But it was a package deal so they could also take Muay Thai classes. Four women signed up; three showed up. After a few classes, one woman left the Systema classes because she preferred the Muay Thai. Fair enough; part of our goal was to give them a chance to try different styles. One just dropped out for unknown reasons. And the last one did tell us that she didn't like Systema, and I guess she didn't like Muay Thai either. The women's-only course ran for a month before all the students dissappeared.

I did try teaching the three women during one class, and they were enthusiastic about the striking and knife exercises, but I couldn't muster any enthusiasm for falling and rolling on the hard floor. Systema does not use mats and that may be what ultimately turned them off. It is uncomfortable at first; very few people can do with natural ease on their first try. It takes about a month to get used to the falls and much longer to get comfortable with the rolls. I tried to encourage them to do their best, not be too hard on themselves, and not get discouraged. But I was unsuccessful. I have to admit that I don't think they were the most open-minded bunch of students. They didn't want to learn to roll and although my teacher and I explained the importance of this skill, their unwillingness was daunting to me. One woman in particular almost seemed resentful about me asking her to try after she made it clear she didn't enjoy it. I wonder if we had told them "never mind, we'll work on something else," would they have stuck around? And then once they were committed, tried again with the rolling, sneaking it through the proverbial back door.

Thanks everyone for your insights. I have found this discussion very helpful and with my school's permission, I'd like to try the 'exit interview' idea.

-Rachel

[KEritano]

Just a few thoughts on the subject:

1. Many adult females didn't get into fist fights and are uncomfortable with the concept of sparring and the physical contact.

Like it or not, some people don't understand sparring and need to start at a very basic level. They require a progressive learning method and most MA schools don't teach this way ... mainly because male tend to be comfortable with sparring. Most adult women dislike being punched in the head, especially if they don't know how to block &/or weave. And they really dislike ending up with bruises or scratches on their faces.
2 . Push-ups. For whatever reason, MAists seem to think push-ups can only be improved upon by just doing push-ups. After a while women get tired of only being able to do a few good ones and wonder why they are still asked to do 50 - 100. Same for pull-ups. Want your female students to improve their arm strength? Then give them exercises so they can improve instead of just doing 3 good pushups and 47 bad ones.

3. Breaking. Again destructive behavior isn't natural. What, you want us to "break" something??? This is where bag and shield work is benefical. Going from kicking or punching air to breaking a piece of wood isn't easy ... you have to focus the strike AND recognize the resistance ... so that wrist had better be tight or ouch, you just sprained something.

4. Most women don't consider bruises, sore muscles, sprains or injuries as a badge of honor. It's an inconvenience. Granted stuff happens, but it's best to minimized that stuff from happening until they have had time to find out they enjoy the training.

Please note, I'm not saying "all" women are this way, but many are. If you are looking to retain more women, then some things need to be adjusted to get them up to speed.

[RachelK]

Most adult women dislike being punched in the head, especially if they don't know how to block &/or weave. And they really dislike ending up with bruises or scratches on their faces.
Can't help but wonder who are these guys who like getting punched in the head? Isn't it safe to say that no-one, male or female, likes getting punched in the head? I guess you could argue that a bruised face is more of a badge of honor to men than to women. I know that when I've gotten black eyes, strangers view me with pity. I can tell that they are thinking "victim" not "martial artist who got a little too reckless while sparring." So I can understand that women be turned off by the potential for facial bruises. But we don't start our beginners off by having them hit each other in the head.

It's funny about being hit in the head and face: one might think that men are more resilient to it, because it's probably happened to them more often than to women. But I haven't found that to be the case. As I mentioned above, I have never met anyone who likes getting hit in the head. Everyone seems to dislike it, men and women alike. And while women may be averse to the facial bruising, I think men take it more as a blow to their pride. I have seen men freak out about getting hit in the face. In fact, I recall one time, my (male) sparring partner came at me real fast, and I punched him in the face and bloodied his lip. It was just a real small cut, we've all endured much worse, but it freaked him out so much that he left the class that instant and never came back. I didn't expect my punch to make full contact; I thought he'd avoid, or yield at least, and turn his face a little to lessen the blow, as we have been trained to do. Instead he took it full-on. I am not absolving myself here; I should have been more restrained. But I have never seen a woman ditch class altogether after getting a little bloodied. I don't believe men or women have an advantage in this particular area. Getting punched in the head and face is unpleasant and it is certainly true that women dislike it, but so do men. And I think that's only right and natural. If we enjoyed getting punched in the head, we'd soon have no brain cells left.

We had the female students doing 20 pushups, mostly on their knees although there was one woman who did them just fine without going to her knees. There is about 10-15 minutes of conditioning exercises, they seemed okay with that. I have found women to be mostly accepting of conditioning exercises for fitness although the self-defense training is more fun.

Breaking stuff, kicking or punching bags or shields, punching the air - not usually part of Systema training (although the Muay Thai class uses pads). We punch each other. And I have to say, the women had no problem with that. I guess the big problem was that we don't use mats, and they didn't enjoy falling or rolling on the floor, no matter how slowly and carefully we tried to teach them, they just didn't like it and their unwillingness was a bit difficult for me to handle (not being a teacher myself, just a female student who was helping out).

I think your suggestions are very good, but they apply to all beginners, not just women. I wouldn't want a male beginner to get lots of cuts and bruises on his first day, either. Beginners shouldn't endure a trial-by-fire. Actually, although I'm not a spokesperson for the style, I think we aim to avoid spilling blood, whether you are a man or woman, beginner or expert. Bruises are inevitable but cutting each other intentionally is not acceptable in any class that I have attended. But perhaps there's nothing wrong with being more careful with female beginners. All beginners deserve a little extra consideration, IMHO.

I just wonder, to what extent can we omit the less comfortable aspects of martial arts training in order to retain female students? I don't mean pushing yourself through exhaustion or the occassional accidental cut. I mean learning certain skills that are a big part of the curriculum. Half a loaf better than none? Or is "softening" the style to make it more palatable changing it too much?

[tellner]

Our retention of female students is at least as high as our retention of male students as is our teacher's. But, as with Kacey, more men are interested from the get go.

Many posters have talked about the usual problems - bad attitudes towards women on the part of male students and teachers, close physical contact as a barrier to women who are not already comfortable with it, the sheer time it takes if you have children or even do the traditional female "second shift" of most of the housework, the simple fact that men get into more fistfights and see more of a need to be good at it. All of these are excellent and insightful.

I've seen a few others.

First, a lot of women are interested in martial arts for self protection. With all due respect, that is not what a lot of schools offer. They are excellent as social groups. They provide a strenuous and enjoyable form of exercise and athletic competition. Many function as unlicensed after school daycare centers. But they either don't give good value for the self defense hour and dollar or the women or the students don't perceive that they do. Whether the problem is real or imagined it's still an issue. Also, I've known a lot of women who went through our self defense classes and figured they had what they needed. They weren't interested in a long-term hobby.

Another reason is men. Boyfriends and husbands. I've known a lot of women who took up martial arts to share an activity with a man in their life. When the relationship changed classes ended. Or their progress or lack of it or just the generalized "bad scobies" that can happen when lovers train with each other became an issue. Or they found that it just wasn't worth the time and sweat when there were other things that could be shared.

Another reason is men. It's certainly less true than it used to be, but many martial arts schools are hardcore sausagefests :) It's not that women can't or don't function perfectly well in mostly male environments. It's just that some (who knows how many?) would rather spend more of their leisure time socializing with other women.

There are women's martial arts schools, of course. Many of them are excellent. I've had some longterm contact with two and saw an interesting split. The divide between the self defensers/fighters and those more interested in self improvement and other goals seemed more pronounced. I can't imagine what it must be like to try to serve both markets in the same school.

Women tend to have less disposable income than men. Martial arts is a luxury for most of us. And money you spend on black belts is money you can't spend on books :D Actually, there's some truth there. Industry figures show that women are much more involved in reading than men. The disparity is growing.

With the rise of MMA there's another factor. Many of the people going into martial arts have some sort of expectation or at least daydream of getting into one of the MMA circuits. There are certainly more opportunities for women in MMA than there used to be. There's still nothing like parity.

Size and strength can be a real problem. When you get to a certain point other attributes become more important. As my beloved friend and teacher Brandt Thomas "Blunt Trauma" Bollers says "If you've got good Silat the beef won't do him no more good than it did the cow." The issue is that "certain point". Beginners don't have good body mechanics, sensitivity or understanding. They tend to compensate with size and strength, especially upper body strength. Men on average have more of that and are more inclined to throw it around. It can be terribly frustrating. A certain fraction of women and smaller men aren't inclined to put in the years it takes to get to the level where it's less of an issue. Sera is a system which emphasizes lower body strength, body mechanics, sensitivity, flow and timing. We still have to gently separate larger stronger beginners and the overly competitive from beginning women students so that the women can get used to doing it right instead of vainly trying to out-muscle guys who have eight inches in height and fifty pounds in weight on them.

A final reason, which I hesitate to mention is comfort with violence and close contact with men. I hesitate because taken wrong it could play into the hands of those who say "See! Women are just naturally bad at it." That's b.s. of course. There isn't something magical about testosterone that makes it easier to stick a knife into someone or kick out a knee. The fact remains that most men are more socialized to violence and to strenuous physical contact. It's normative for them, at least in theory. Great strides have been made in female equality in this regard. But women are still on average less prepared for it by social training and upbringing. Sometimes it's an issue, don't know to what extent.

I don't have a good sense of how many women slip through each of these cracks. As the original correspondent noted they just tend to drift away and don't usually say why. These are just a few things I've noticed over the last couple decades.

[ihraxhunnie]

at our dojo we do a ton of grappling and street fighting situations. I've notice that we do have females but young females. as the age goes up, the females decrease.


on the other hand, at my dojang, where grappling and street fighting is not heard of during classes, the older women flock yet as well as the younger females...


maybe it does have something to do with the fighting/sparring. personally i've never had problems getting on the ground with the guys to beat them up till they tap. :lol: