A teenager walks in to your school...

[Carol]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

[Boomer]

Accept his challenge if you are the one who sets the rules to the "match". When he agrees to this stipulation, explain to him that the match will be decided by a game of rock, paper, scissors.
If he hasn't already left, explain to him that martial arts are a path of self discipline, not one of glory seekers. And tell him to stop using Clearasil...it causes TOO much confidence.

[still learning]

Hello, Do people still act like that? This teenager still needs to grow up. Most likely had a bad role model? or wants to brag or prove he can fight?

First of all I would tell him "NO" and politely ask him to leave. If he persists' time to call 911.

To reason with someone who does not have any common sense can be useless? Watches too many martial movies?

I also would watch my back a few days,weeks.

Always be humble, be nice, and ask him to leave. Let him know that is NOT our way.

Remember if challenge? You will need to prepare to fight to the death?
Who knows what he may do to you? (avoidance is the best answer).

Guys like this may lose and come back a few months/years later for revenge...a never ending story here.

Hope this is NOT real here? ............Aloha

[Tez3]

As long as he walked into the adults class and not the childrens there'd be no problem. We'd probably ask him to do the nights training with us first then if he still wanted to he can go on the mats with anyone he liked. If he won we'd sign him up for the team, if he lost we'd hope he'd stay and train with us. We've never had anyone come in and challenge us but we are a fighting club. We've had people come to train with us who've had a cocky attitude but they've either not come back or changed it quickly. We don't go overboard and hurt anyone but we do train hard.
To walk into an MMA club and challenge someone in the manner described would take a lot of guts (or sheer stupidity) so we wouldn't be insulted or laugh at him. We would however be careful not to damage him.

[terryl965]

First off Iwould ask him to please show me some simple techniques and go over those teachs. If done not correctly explain it to him and if done right go on to some simple mid belts and then advance once we have fininshed that I would simply explain that the challenges of the seventy is gone but if he would like to sign a waiver, so the school and myself was not held responsible for anything. Then I would proceed to gear him up and let him sparr a few students and if he could show that he could hang with them then I would explain the beenefits from coming to class to learn everything else he need to know.

I would personally not spar him it would not be a fair fight, Not that I'm that good just that I have more experience and would use that to my advantage against him.

[tshadowchaser]

being of an old mind set I would explain that we needed his medical information and a wavier signed by his parent (in front of me). I would explain that a challange is not an offer to spar and that someone would end up in the hospital.
I would invirte him to come back when a class was being taught and I might let him go through the workout with us.
I might accept him as a student or I might not depending on how he conducted himslef in the free class.

BTW he asked if he could come in and teach some of the things he has learned to the class. would you let him show what he knows???
YES folks this one is for real it happened Sat.
For those of you that know us he wanted to challange Charlie or myslef at first

[stickarts]

I smile and thank him for the offer and then recommend that he try some other school.:)
Thats not at all in in line with why I or my my school is here.

[stone_dragone]

House Rules...no one crosses hands without a full practice first. I agree with the sentiments above regarding this concept!

[Drac]

For those of you that know us he wanted to challange Charlie or myslef at first


..Hell have to go back to his buds and explain that a skinny MA beat the chicken soup outta him...I'd have paid for a copy of that fight

[Tabris]

Believe it or not, but on one of my trips to china, that happened, only the boy was 18, had want from school to school learning for a year, then moving on. He dropped by the school I was visiting (recommanded by a friend and fellow MA) and bravely stood his ground and asked to fight only the master of the school. He threw down the challenge and it was picked back up and threw back at him, he lost... BUT... he was very polite about it and thanked the students, teachers and master for letting him enter there honorable school and asking to be forgiven for so rudely stopping the class. I am told two weeks later he moved onto a school two "blocks" over and fought there. True Story. If it had asked anywhere else, he'd be refused. Interesting yes?

[theletch1]

15? Nope, doesn't even get a handshake until I see the parents. Our country has gotten far too litigious to even consider breaking a nail on a 15 year old with that kind of mindset. It sounds like he's watched one too many old kung fu movies and doesn't have enough parental supervision in his life.

[Tez3]

Insurance not really a problem, we have public liability as well as instructor and personal. For us it wouldn't really be a problem if he wanted to spar with any of us, we wouldn't take a challenge seriously as such just let him get in with the rest of us. He'd might be annoyed at the lack of fuss though. Everyone is skilled enough to not hurt him and also to take anything he gave out. Just watching some of the others spar could be enough to make him change his mind, if not and he was calm and confident we'd see no reason not to let him have a go. As I said if he's got the guts to walk into a full contact fighting club we wouldn't belittle him, he'd be treated with respect. I'm not sure though what should happen in a traditional club though.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well first I would show him the door and tell him that he is interfering with the students time. (would not matter what his age was) Next I don't do challenge matches. Not because I do not believe in them just because it is not what I train for. I train for real life personal protection skills not sport. That is a big differance. Nor do I have time for testosterone filled egos as it gets in the way with all of the practitioners training. Still if he pressed and attacked me then it would be a self defense situation and that would be a bad situation for one of us as I do not play fair nor do I engage empty handed when I can have an advantage. (advantages abound in my Training Hall and I would seek the best one) Next I imagine that the whole class would join in and we would cuff him (lots of those hanging around in the Training Hall) and call the police and off he would go for a nice nights stay in the local jail. (that is if he survived and his attack did not warrant lethal force) No matter what I would abide by the law and make every effort to have him leave peaceably and under his own volition. Still if he attacked myself, one of my assistants, students then action would be needed and taken if necessary!

Bottom line I have simply no time for children or adults acting like children. Threasts, challegnes, etc. are assault and would be treated like an assault!

I am not hiding either because I love to have a go at it with students and fellow practitioners all the time but they are students/practitioners and we have mutual goals in mind. So if this individual after being told to leave did and called me later and said he was sorry for interrupting and wanted to train we might accomodate him and eventually he would get plenty of hands on training, rolling, grappling, sparring, with and without tools, etc.

You see there is a difference in approach with real world personal protection and a different mind set. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

Surprisingly enough I have not been challenged by anyone in a long, long time even though I am sure a few have thought about. Maybe it is the way I move or carry myself or my presence as I am pretty matter of fact and have been in many work related physical confrontations in the past!

Still this is just a what if as every situation is fluid and would require unique handling skills. What might work in one situation simply would not work in the next.

I wonder what spurred the question Carol as few people seem to be interested in going into a FMA school and challenging an instructor with all the sticks, blades, etc. laying around! Did this happen at your training hall?

Just my 02. on the matter.

[kosho]

For those of you that know us he wanted to challange Charlie or myslef at first.


Sensei,
Call me when you get a free moment, I would love to hear more this...

and also share a story as well.

Kosho

Dojo number 1-978-544-9693

[Tez3]

Thinking more about it, it's probably a lot easier for us as we get people coming in to train with us all the time, sometimes it's people from other teams or clubs who want to spar with different people, we get boxers coming in to do stand up with us, we have TMA people who are in the area for a while and pop in. At 15 we'd treat him as an adult, it's one of things about our club that the teenagers are treated the same as the adults as to how they are spoken to and included in the conversations, jokes etc. We have a couple of 14 and 15 year olds who help out at shows as well and they respond very well to being treated this way.

Anyone who walks through our door and wants to spar with us is welcome to,we're open to everyone. What we would never do though is match someone up like this on a show without a coach or trainer putting entering him. he'd only be allowed to fight junior rules until he was 16 then amateur until he was 18.

[Makalakumu]

I would ask him to leave and if he didn't, I would call he cops. Challenge matches are a big no no in my dojang. They go against the spirit of what I am trying to teach my students and they have all of the legal risks that have been mentioned above.

On his way out, I would make sure he had my contact information just in case he wanted to come back and try some classes. And I would make sure that he learned the proper attitude before he came back through my door.

[Tez3]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

People are assuming the worst here when the OP says that he's calm and quiet. There's no reason to assume he's an out of control, rampantly hormoned thug who wouldn't leave if asked! I imagine if he's as described by the OP he would take a polite refusal and leave, doubtful he would attack anyone when he would seem to want a proper match. We wouldn't bother calling the police, I'm already there lol! Plus where our club is he would have had to show ID to get in through the camp gates so we'd know who he was.

Our classes aren't rigid and someone coming in wouldn't disrupt us, we don't do challenges but we do have an open door for any that want to come in. I can see how it would disrupt a traditional class but we are always on the look out for new fighters, we don't expect them to challenge anyone though to get into the team lol! I know we aren't everyone's cup of tea but it suits us.

You know 15 year old boys can be quite romantic when it comes to challenges and proving themselves? He may think he's on a quest and be perfectly respectful and sane about it, I wouldn't laugh at him for being old fashioned! Until I knew differently I would treat him with respect and not as a delinquent who needs to grow up. If he were serious I would not want to hurt his feelings or treat him like a child. If he really insisted he wanted to challenge someone, I'd try to dissuade him but I'd see no reason why he couldn't spar wth us, plenty of others do.

[MA-Caver]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?
Wasn't this guy on MT a little while ago? He talked about this and got basically "shouted off" this forum by the instructors and the (real) ranking Dans. Is he STILL around? Geez. Did he walk into your school Carol?

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, if I *Had* a school it'd go like this, we'll set the time 10, 15 years in the future:

ANDY: Do you understand what it is you're doing? What you've just done is not the same as simply asking for a friendly spar. People stopped doing this 20 and 30 years ago because of what used to happen to people in them. Do you understand that?

KID: (gives whatever response he does)

ANDY: Son, how old are you?

KID: 15.

ANDY: When are you gonna be 18?

KID: (gives a month/year)

ANDY: OK, if at that time you still wanna do this, come back and talk to me. I don't need the cops lookin' to pick me up for assaulting a minor. HOWEVER-- In the meantime, come over here with me, there's something I wanna show you and something I want you to think about for those 3 years.

*walks the kid over to his uncle's shadow box he made that has the triangular folded flag, his posthumous Purple Heart, his unit patches/pins and such.

ANDY: When my uncle was killed in Vietnam, his family got this Purple Heart. He served in the 25th Infantry Division as a medic. He was killed by a sniper outside Cu Chi in 1969.He was supposed to be shipped out to Germany that year, but chose Vietnam instead despite the danger he knew was there. Do you know why he did this?

KID: (gives whatever answer he gives, probably "no" or "why")

ANDY: OK, now look over here.

* Andy shows the kid his own two shadowboxes--one from his days in the Massachusetts State Guard, the other from his time in Civil Air Patrol( served concurrently).

ANDY: These are from MY days in uniform--I joined both these services when I was 29. I first tried to join the regular federal forces the week I turned 17, but was turned away for my hearing problem. Some years later when 9/11 happened, I came to be very frustrated that I couldn't be out there doing what had to be done. So when I learned that My home state at the time had such a force available, my best friend had been in a few years before me and they were for real, and I got in. Do you know why *I* did this?

KID: (gives whatever answer, maybe even closer to what I'm trying to drive home to him).

ANDY: The common bond between my uncle and I, even though he died before I was born, is this: WE READIED OURSELVES TO FIGHT FOR A CAUSE BIGGER THAN OURSELVES.

When my uncle chose instead to deploy to Vietnam, he didn't do it for some bull**** abstract like his Flag, his Nation, or "Democracy"--he went to be near his COMRADES. It was his job to heal the wounded and he wanted the people he cared about to be safe, enough that he risked, and gave, his life for them, in order to do *whatever it took to look after the ones he cared about.*

I didn't swear in or put a uniform on for some bull**** abstract like my Flag, my Nation or "Democracy For damnsure I didn't do it for our President at the time.

I chose to volunteer for this way of life for one simple reason: I want the people I care about to be safe. Which included my brothers and sisters in my unit as well as my family, friends and countrymen.

Now I wasn't so naive as to think that I could wave my magic bayonet and magically prevent anything from happening to them specifically, but I guess what I was hoping is that if there IS some kind of higher power pulling strings up there, that maybe it understands fair trade. That if I prepared to face the bad things, maybe they wouldn't have to.

And that's the whole point of this little talk: You came in here today, I'm thinkin', because you wanna get strong.

So I'm thinkin' maybe you need to ask yourself of just what exactly "strong" is.
Has anything I've said sunk in?

KID: answers however he does, I'm hoping he starts to "get it")

ANDY: So now you're starting to understand that the reason you train is less about you and more about keeping the people you care about safe, and if you're any kind of "awake", it's startin' to switch on in your head now why this approach you're takin' seeking out violence for its own sake isn't ****in' kid stuff , good to go?

KID: (answers however he does, hopefully he's enough on board I can continue and close this out).

*Andy points one last time to Uncle Ricky's Purple Heart*

"Whatever it takes to look after those you care about"......and maybe now you're starting to understand just exactly what that means. THAT'S where the strength you need comes from, son, not challenge matches. Keep training, keep working out, but always remember this talk we're having.

*Andy reaches into his pocket and pulls out his 25th Infantry challenge coin he keeps around in his uncle's honor.

ANDY: I want you to keep that, to remind you of this talk we had. In the meantime, you can start changing what you need to about how you view things on your way out--when you find yourself walking out on that street, or next time you're out with your friends or wherever, quit thinking in terms of, "these people better watch out, because I'm here".or trying to out-stare them or whatever, instead just look, give'em a slight smile and a little nod, and think from the point of, "Everyone in this place is just that little bit safer because I am here". You'll find that people in general are less likely to be put off and you'll make more friends that way as a side benefit. People's perception of you is that subtle, but that real, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll find that your number of "high-risk" incidents rapidly drops to near zero.

I've a class to get back to, but I hope I've given you something to think about in the time before we meet again. Have a good night, "

[Sukerkin]

Interesting response, Andy, that delves into a few of the essential precepts of what makes a martial artist and a good person at the same time :tup:.

[Tez3]

To get into the camp where my club is a 15yr old would have to have a dependants ID, that means he would be the son of a soldier/s. In a year or less he could be a soldier himself. At seventeen and a half he could be in Iraq or Afghanistan probably one after the other.

I understand where Andy and the others are coming from but feel that an awful lot is being made of someone walking in and challenging you. A calm no thanks would be enough if you feel you don't want anything to do with him. It sounds as if people are thinking they are being insulted by him? I don't really understand why people are upset to be honest. On an average night in my club in the adult session we will have five amateur fighters, three or four semi pro, a couple of pro fighters, two Parachute Regiment PTIs, two army nurses (female), three Infantry Regts NCOs, one Army Air Corps, two Royal Artillery and two RAMC soldiers. The chief instructor is ex spec forces and close protection, plus two civilian doormen and if anyone wants to walk in and wants to spar with us good luck to them! We spar on different levels according to what we are training but it's always hard. We fight full contact so frankly it's no big deal a kid walking in and saying he wants a challenge but I can't see it happening myself can you? He can join in the sparring if he wishes, he won't get hurt as my guys won't either but then, you know, he may just turn out to be another Bruce Lee, Bas Rutten or Chuck Liddell! His confidence in himself could be justified lol!

[Tez3]

It could be that I work and train in such a testosterone enriched atmosphere that someone walking in with a challenge isn't deemed unusual lol! We've had challenges from gypsy fighters but I wouldn't like to say whether they are taken up! I will say they are very honourable fighters though lol!

[MarkBarlow]

Regardless of their age, I don't accept challenges. I explain that I'll be glad to spar after they sign the waiver (under 18 requires a parent/guardian to sign in front of me), pay tuition and train for a month. We don't allow anyone to randori without following the same procedure. I'm certainly not going to reward someone for disrupting my class. If they become belligerent or threatening, I ask them to leave and explain that they are now trespassing and I call the cops.
I've had this happen twice and both time they left after hearing us make the 911 call. When the cops arrive, I filed a complaint, just in case. I don't see it as being timid or afraid to fight, I view it as protecting myself financially and legally. The challenger has nothing to lose. If they are beaten, they lost to an instructor. If they win, they'll brag that they whipped some worthless black belt. If I win, big deal, everyone expects me to win. There is absolutely nothing to be gained.

[FieldDiscipline]

Once again I enjoyed your response Tez.

My response would depend on the three day candle... :mst: :)

[Andy Moynihan]

Yeah, a simple no thanks would be enough if He was to be dismissed, only in the description Carol gave, it seemed like the kid wasn't a total waste and had a sense of discipline and respect about him.

That we aren't reading that he ended up hospitalized is a testament to the fact he wasn't there just to make trouble. Carol's one of my best friends, and she trains with Sheldon and Charlie, and by extension, I too have had a training session with/have gotten to meet and know Sheldon and Charlie. Neither one of them is exactly on my Top Ten list of people I would wanna take the Back Alley Test with.

But it sounded to me like the kid had much of the necessary groundwork to have the warrior ethos inculcated in him, he just was goin' about it in a less than ideal way--that's what teens do, this is the time they're figuring out who they are, and being uncertain, are afraid, so I figure this kid had to prove to his own satisfaction he could handle whatever was thrown at him, and , in my imagined scenario, provided the best way I knew to introduce him to change his general worldview to that end, and if all worked out , he'd be a good kid ready to pass into manhood with *correct* warrior values, because there aren't enough of 'em, and for damnsure they aren't gonna learn it in school.

[Rich Parsons]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?


My Answer before reading what others have written. :)

I would reply as I have years ago, that I have already lost. ** Usually this brings startle from the students and a confused or angry face from the challenger. ** I have lost as if I accept and you win then it is assumed that even if I cannot win, I cannot teach others to have good technique. If I do win then you can walk out of here and call the police and say I hurt you when you did not wish to be hurt. So either way I loose.

But if you insist on still wishing to test your skills then I ask the following:
** I usually say this very quiet like and with my arm around them if possible. **
1) After everone leaves we lock the doors.
2) It is only you and I.
3) No witnesses and no camera's.
4) There are no rules.
5) Understand that by no rules I mean no rules.

Or do you just wish to test your skill set out? If so then just sit back and watch. Enjoy, and learn if possible.

***** Note: as this was addressed to a person under age other precautions may also have to be stated. As I did one night with a young punk who kicked me and said I could nto do anything in return as he was under 18 and I as over 18. I reached out and grabbed him by the neck and pinned him on his toes against the wall. I then screamed my head off for the police and for help and yelled fire. the police station was actually real close to us. The back of their property touched ours as well. No one came to help. No one wanted to get involved. I then explained to him that while the "LAW" protects him he has to survive long enough to get to someone to press charges and then to get a ADA to think there is a case to take it to court. I also then explained that according to the local laws that I could defend myself agsint someone of any age with equal and opposite force. I then explained that in our state kicking someone with your shoes on was assault and battery with a deadly weapon. Minimum Great Bodily harm, could be charged with attempted murder. So this allowed me to use my discretion in defending my life from great bodily harm and possible murder. Equal means I can reply in kind. The young punk asked if he could home. I smiled and let him go home, no damage, just a scare. Explaining this to a minor is sometimes required, for they believe they are some how untouchable.

Personally, I have never had to go past the explaination of closed doors and no rules, and no witnesses. As most want to show off their skills and make you look bad. And the others now are concerned about being in your place with the doors locked and it is just one on one with no real gain as both sides can claim what they want, unless someone actually gets seriously hurt.

[MarkBarlow]

I love the way Gene LeBell deals with this. Whenever he's challenged, he asks how much the guy is going to pay him to fight. The challenger invariably says they're not going to pay anything and Gene tells them he doesn't fight for less than $10,000 (the amount varies) and to come back when they've got the cash.:)

[Tez3]

Yeah, a simple no thanks would be enough if He was to be dismissed, only in the description Carol gave, it seemed like the kid wasn't a total waste and had a sense of discipline and respect about him.

That we aren't reading that he ended up hospitalized is a testament to the fact he wasn't there just to make trouble. Carol's one of my best friends, and she trains with Sheldon and Charlie, and by extension, I too have had a training session with/have gotten to meet and know Sheldon and Charlie. Neither one of them is exactly on my Top Ten list of people I would wanna take the Back Alley Test with.

But it sounded to me like the kid had much of the necessary groundwork to have the warrior ethos inculcated in him, he just was goin' about it in a less than ideal way--that's what teens do, this is the time they're figuring out who they are, and being uncertain, are afraid, so I figure this kid had to prove to his own satisfaction he could handle whatever was thrown at him, and , in my imagined scenario, provided the best way I knew to introduce him to change his general worldview to that end, and if all worked out , he'd be a good kid ready to pass into manhood with *correct* warrior values, because there aren't enough of 'em, and for damnsure they aren't gonna learn it in school.

I love that expression! We've never had anyone wander in and start trouble (said in a wistful tone lol) We don't at shows either.To actually come in our door is usually regarded as being a pretty good test of intentions. We may not get trouble at our shows but we get plenty of the bravedo! "yeah I'm coming to train with you" and "yeah I want to fight" many say they will come in but very few do which is amazing the amount of "cage fighters" there are in the area rofl! so if this lad walked in our door we'd be welcoming! We've had a couple of mothers drag their lads in though as they were getting out of hand, one of them is now our best pro fighter with exciting prospects ahead of him.

[Gordon Nore]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

I doubt my teacher would really care how polite or calm the challenger is. To my way of thinking, nobody walks into someone else's school to show what they know, but to learn what the teacher has to offer.

[Tez3]

We have a Brazilian BJJ coach who's talked a few times about challenges behind locked doors. I think they may be common in Brazil.
This is one of our Para PTI's, he's from 2 Para Regt. Not the best of records but he's as hard as nails. He teaches the recruits so is used to teenage boys. The have "milling" as part of their training. The recruits put boxing gloves on and fight each other.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=3941

You'll like this one lol, they are discussing milling,Sandy 'The Guvnor' is the above fighter.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=758698.html

[FieldDiscipline]

Mmm. Milling...

A link to Arrse Tez? What have you started!

[Tez3]

I doubt my teacher would really care how polite or calm the challenger is. To my way of thinking, nobody walks into someone else's school to show what they know, but to learn what the teacher has to offer.


I see your point exactly there. We aren't a school but a team and have one instructor and a couple of coaches. We actively encourage and invite people to come and show us stuff so it makes it easy for us to have people in. I can imagine though it would be impolite to say the least to enter a school uninvited.

[CuongNhuka]

A couple of years ago something like this happened to my Sensei. He had some guy come in, about 20, and asked for a fight. He said that if my Sensei could beat him, he must have something worth learning, and would train with us. My Sensei told him no a coupld of times, but the guy wouldn't go away. So, my sensei finally said "ok, we have a class going on right now, come back when it's done, and I'll have you sigh a waiver, we'll look the doors, and we can fight". At this time we had commercial space, and a kids class (which is what was going on).
The kid aparently a 'deer in the head lights' look, and asked what a waiver is. My Sensei answered with "it's a piece of paper that says that if I mess you up, or worse, you wont sue me". He was never seen again in my school.

[Tez3]

Mmm. Milling...

A link to Arrse Tez? What have you started!

LOL, you understand I don't go on there myself......I use the RAF bit lol!

Have to admit the humour may fox a lot of people though!



So what's your usename on there then lol!

[FieldDiscipline]

Not telling! Not an ex-crab are you? Oooh no!

[mjd]

This sort of thing actually happen at our school, accept is was new black belt about 20 years old from a TKD school in a neighboring town, I found out later he was training for a MMA fight he was competeing in the next month. He came in one night an watched our class, at the end of class he said he was a black belt and wanted to challenge our black belts to a full contact MMA match, I told this person no at first stating we are not about proving anything to anybody and this was a disrepectful way of making new friends, and offerred him to join our class and earn the right to test his skills, he joined, and earned his rgiht, he got is match.

[Tez3]

Not telling! Not an ex-crab are you? Oooh no!


Yep lol! Worse..my other half is an ex Rock! But I have a fondness for Bootnecks :boing2:

[Makalakumu]

In the neighborhood my school is located, we have lots of criminal and gang activity. More often then not, if someone walks in looking for a fight, its a good bet that they belong to some sort of gang. I'm not going to take the chance of letting gang members hone or test their fighting skills at my school.

Imagine what would happen if word got around that I accepted challenges in that kind of environment?

It's not worth the risk. It goes against the philosophy that I teach. It sets a bad precedent.

If challenge matches are part of what you do, thats fine. It just can't work for me.

[Kacey]

My sahbum and his sahbum have told me about the challenge matches they responded to, and the ones they made - but even they admit freely that those times are gone; it's a different world, and people today train largely for different reasons. I would not accept a challenge match at my school, nor would I allow my students to do so.

[jks9199]

It'd depend on the circumstances. I'd have to talk to the kid, and see why he thought he could challenge me. Then, if he impressed me favorably, I might let him fight in my class. I'm not fighting a kid unless I'm teaching him or it's for real... but I've got a couple of students that I'd happily let fight someone with the right attitude, in a training mindset.

If he's got the wrong attitude... Then, he's gone. With whatever force is necessary to convince him of the errors of his ways.

[grydth]

In the neighborhood my school is located, we have lots of criminal and gang activity. More often then not, if someone walks in looking for a fight, its a good bet that they belong to some sort of gang. I'm not going to take the chance of letting gang members hone or test their fighting skills at my school.

Imagine what would happen if word got around that I accepted challenges in that kind of environment?

It's not worth the risk. It goes against the philosophy that I teach. It sets a bad precedent.

If challenge matches are part of what you do, thats fine. It just can't work for me.

Genuine kudos to you for taking this position. I wonder how many of the pseudo Sokes who have darkened these cyber shores would take the business.... maybe pump up their 'street creds' a little, who cares about the resulting increased mayhem in the neighborhood?

When dojos stop teaching "the philosophy", they degenerate into simple training grounds for better bullies and more capable thugs.

And if just a few of your younger guys see this stance, and realize you don't have to take every challenge, one corner of our country will be a little better.

[still learning]

Hello, Challenges? and Revenge? "usuallly go hand in hand". Once you let them know you are willing to fight? You will get others looking to challenge you." Best is to say NO, and ask them to go elsewhere....


Challenges today is a childish thing....some people never grows up! Like an old western gun fight? Quick draw.

Remember any challenge (between black belts) will always be to the death....because both of you know how to kill...and you do not know what the other guy is going to do to you! He may even take out your eyes? or break your neck?

There is very little rules in a challenge (if you make rules? how will you know this stranger will keep them if he is losing?)

Best is to walk away! ............Aloha

[Cirdan]

At our Wado club he would be told that we don`t do that kind of thing and politely asked to leave. We would also have a little laugh at his expense, just as with the other kid who wanted to join the "secret underground karate championship" :lol:

At the Ju Jutsu club the reply would be more like "You are free to join the class and we always do some randori towards the end. It is none too serious tho so leave your ego outside."

[morph4me]

I would just tell him "You win" and get on with the class. I don't feel the need to prove myself or to be used as a tool so others can prove themselves, so if he needs to test himself I'll give him the satisfaction of surrendering, he can claim he beat me, or that I was afraid to fight him, or whatever else he wants, I'm OK with it.

[tshadowchaser]

As has been discussed in a different thread many things in the world of Martial Arts have changed in the last 30 years.
When I was younger and less gray my instructor had more than a few challengers walk into his school. They where met with respect and we let them try to prove themselves on the floor. i fought many of these challengers and so did a few others as well as my instructor. My instructor also put me in a few situations where I fought because he wanted to see if another instructor was truly what he claimed to be. BUT that was then and this is now and such practices are now frowned upon by most.
I do recall one young man who came in to prove his worth and was defeated , a year later he came back and tried again. This went on for 4 years with a different student defeating the young man but not seriously hurting him. After the 4th time my instructor told the man that if he came back again he would have to pay $100 to step out on the floor because my instructor was tired of giving him free lessons each year.
In today’s world with all the laws protecting youth and everyone being sue happy it is almost foolish for a person to accept a challenge. Still little things like challenges keep us on our toes both mentally and physically and we must ever be aware that such things happen.

Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.
The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.

[Adept]

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

Lay out mutually agreeable rules, find a ring and appropriate safety gear, and have at it.

Obviously extenuating circumstances, such as upnorthkyosa's situation, will affect whether or not you agree.

But a challenge match doesn't have to be about ego, or one-up-manship. And fights can (and usually are) be conducted safely and with a minimum of fuss. If the kid wants to fight, and you believe everyone involved will be as safe as possible, then why not?

[jks9199]

Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.
The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.

No. If I know the person or their background, and believe that what they can demonstrate might be of use or interest to my students, I'm happy to have guest instructors or demonstrators. But some guy walking off the street? Nope. I'll be happy to talk with him, maybe work a little privately to see if what he has to share would be valuable... but that's it.

[morph4me]

No. If I know the person or their background, and believe that what they can demonstrate might be of use or interest to my students, I'm happy to have guest instructors or demonstrators. But some guy walking off the street? Nope. I'll be happy to talk with him, maybe work a little privately to see if what he has to share would be valuable... but that's it.

Agreed, why waste everybody time. Unless I know that he has something of value to offer I wouldn't let hime teach my students.

[Grenadier]

If someone comes into the dojo, and starts issuing challenges, I'll simply state, that if he wants to fight our people, then he has to join the dojo, and work his way up the ranks to the point where we allow for free sparring.

If he's willing to go through all of that, then I'll certainly welcome him into the dojo, as long as he behaves well, since he would be like any other member.

Otherwise, if he insists on fighting right here, right now, I'll tell him that's not the way we do things, and ask him to leave. If he doesn't leave, I'll call the police.

Maybe challenges were more acceptable in the days of John Timothy Keehan, but that's not the way we do things in this day and age, and if he wants to fight with other people, then he's certainly free to enter various sanctioned full contact competitions.

If anything, if he really wants to throw down with a group of full contact fighters, I would encourage him to enroll in Oyama Shihan's school (Kyokushin Kai), where he would get what he wants. I have full faith in Oyama's people, that they would politely give him what he was seeking, and that they would do so in an honorable manner. :)

One way or the other, I would find out which school he was training at (shouldn't be too difficult in my area, since I can probably pinpoint the style to a specific school around here), and contact his sensei / sahbum / sifu.

[bmcgonag]

If I practice fighting so that I do not have to fight, then to accept this challenge would defeat my whole purpose. If he is only asking, and not demanding then I would have to say no thank you, offer to let him sign the waivers, and stay for practice as long as he maintains a proper attitude.

If he is demanding, then it is not really a challenge, and now I defend myself. In most cases I would say walk away, or run if need be, but if it is your dojang, then you may have to take the approach of calling police or having someone else call while you keep him occupied.

Just because it is a place of learning to fight does not mean that assault charges cannot be pressed, especially by a non-student.

Good thinker, hard to know until you face it for real though.

Best,

Brian

[CuongNhuka]

Yep lol! Worse..my other half is an ex Rock! But I have a fondness for Bootnecks :boing2:

Would you mind explaining what these terms are to those of us who aren't part of what ever group this is from?

[grydth]

[COLOR=black] Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.
The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.

Those of you who have your own dojos have complete control over who teaches...so I can't imagine any of you turning over a class to a stranger who you've never seen perform. That's because anyone standing up there has your seal of approval - and you could suffer if the man is a fake, a nut, an imposter or 'heretic'.

If a traveller appeared to offer worthwhile skills, I'd guess most would opt for a private screening of sorts, instructors only. If the guy was for real, you could arrange a seminar or something more lasting.

[Tez3]

Would you mind explaining what these terms are to those of us who aren't part of what ever group this is from?

Sorry we were being rude! Crab is a dreadful insult used by the army about us very nice RAF people lol! A rock is a rockape otherwise someone who is a member of the RAF Regiment. A Bootneck is a member of the finest fighting force in the world, they ride to battle tied to apache helicopters.True. The Royal Marine Commandos!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6269613.stm


Back to the thread.
Absolutely yes we'd let him take over the class! We have a Forces sense of humour I'm afraid and while it wouldn't be very noble of us it would however be very funny! Can you imagine someone coming in and taking over a fight team's training lol!

We do train to fight, our self defence classes are different, I'm afraid if someone came into one of them he'd end up as Uke lol!

[CuongNhuka]

Sorry we were being rude! Crab is a dreadful insult used by the army about us very nice RAF people lol! A rock is a rockape otherwise someone who is a member of the RAF Regiment. A Bootneck is a member of the finest fighting force in the world, they ride to battle tied to apache helicopters.True. The Royal Marine Commandos!

Crab = RAF? Explain this logic to me. RAF stands for "Royal Air Force", right? How are you a crab?

[Andy Moynihan]

"Bootneck" I'm gonna take a Scientific Wild Ass Guess and say it might refer to a leather collar on , or having historically once been on their uniform as in the case of our US Marines whose nickname of "Leatherneck" referred to the stiff leather collar on their uniforms from 1775 to 1875 which served not only to enforce correct posture but offered a small amount of protection to the neck from bladed weapons in a time when ship-to-ship combat and the tactic of boarding parties was still a common practice in warfare.

My guess is Americans having borrowed or adapted many British military customs may be similar to the Royal Marines in this regard.


Then again I could be way off base.

Tez will tell us, Tez knows everything :D

[Drac]

Way back when I first started hanging around dojo, dojangs, etc...etc..If you were stupid enough to walk into a strange school and challenge the teacher, Sensei, Sifu, Sabum etc..etc.. you got WHATEVER he or she decide to give you..Like I said that was WAY "back in the day" when people didn't haul you into court because you looked them crosseyed...

[Gordon Nore]

Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.
The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.


tshadowchaser,

I get the distinction you're making. I still have a fairly narrow of this: My teacher would not accept that, nor would I. People are invited to teach -- they don't invite themselves. We've had guests in who teach and train in arts quite different from our own, but, generally, my teacher -- or one of his seniors -- saw them teach or train elsewhere, and then invited them.

The decision is obviously up to the instructor. Again, I don't think teacher would be too happy me if were to invite myself to teach other schools.

Like I say, I seem to be narrow of mind on this topic.

[kidswarrior]

In today’s world with all the laws protecting youth and everyone being sue happy it is almost foolish for a person to accept a challenge. Still little things like challenges keep us on our toes both mentally and physically and we must ever be aware that such things happen.I agree this applies for current students. I allow a little leeway when they've been with me for awhile, and we both know the power of the art to do harm.


Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.

The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.No. In fact, when this happens to me (and it has--they are obviously there to try to embarrass me/show off for friends), I've taken to just telling them I'm not accepting new students (even if I am :D) This subtly lets them know I consider them a student while I'm the chief instructor.

If they continue or escalate it to seriously challenging me to fight, (and I have had this happen, but not in a MA class), I just say something like, Start whenever you want. Their unfailing reply of 'But you don't have your hands up', or, 'We need gloves', or some such shows me they have a duel in mind. A simple reply of this is my fighting stance (hands on hips), or, I don't use gloves, tells them the gravity of the situation. One of the strengths I gained from San Soo was hearing the masters say We don't spar, we do 'workouts' (although this slow-mo partner practice can bruise and even break things :D). As Doc said on another thread, quoting Ed Parker if I'm not mistaken, there's a difference between sparring and fighting, and a challenge from one of these youngsters is a good time to make it clear. Have never had one who didn't back down--thank God!! :)

[brianlkennedy]

I have lived in Taiwan for the past 14 years so I have no idea what goes on in American training halls. But a martial arts friend and I were talking about this exact topic awhile back.

I expect I will end up teaching back in California someday. I am already 49 so I suspect I will be in my mid 50s before I ever teach my first American student. Lets say the kid does calmly challenge me or one of my younger but senior in rank students.

I tell the kid I do not take challenges, kid insists, maybe with a laugh saying I will not hurt you old man, just want to cross hands like in the old days. Kid will not leave. I call the cops, cops escort the kid out (this I realize may not be a very realistic situation, the kid most likely will bolt out the door when I start dialing the cops).

Okay, the evenings potential disaster is averted. But------what do my students think? Do they still have confidence in me, my teachings? Or, in the back of their minds are they thinking, "ummmm, Teacher Brian may not be the real deal, if he was he should have duked it out with that guy last night. He backed down, whimped out and called the cops on the dude, I think I will take my martial arts money elsewhere to spend".

Now I realize the answer to that question maybe it depends on how mature your students are and how exactly you are presenting yourself and your art. (i.e. if I am hyping my program just for health or Chinese culture I am less expected to duke it out than if I am claiming to teach self defense or hard core fighting).

Comments?
Take care,
Brian (the maybe future teacher)
p.s. I have not talked about Taiwan because the whole situation is quite different here about challenges, culture and the position of teachers.

[Odin]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

I would ask if he was related to the Gracies by any chance :P

[bobster_ice]

Clearasil...it causes TOO much confidence.

Roflmao!

[Balrog]

A teenager walks in to your school....and calmly asks to challenge you.

You ask why?

He says he's self-taught, and he's recently challenged masters in a nearby town. He doesn't say the name of the school, but he says the style, and the town. He says he's held his own.

You gaze at his build, and notice that he is athletic. You ask how old he is, he says he is 15.

The teen talks to you clearly, calmly, and quietly. He doesn't raise his voice, and speaks very confidently and in a matter-of-fact fashion.

What do you do from there?

I would ask him to come back with his parents and sign up for classes. Since he is a minor, he can't legally sign the contract or the waiver.

[tshadowchaser]

some interesting answeres to this thread
thanks to Carol for starting it.

I like the idea of letting the young man come back and showing what he knows before a select group of senior students and possibly a few outsiders from other school ( they might as well know he is in the area)
If the young man truely has learned some good techniques he may well make a good student for someone if he is willing to learn.
This might be a good time to show the young man , in a friendly manner, that he has learned little and there is much he has no idea about.

As for the challange at his age it would not be accepted unless he made the first violent move. I hate putting my coffee done just tp satisfy some kid.

Now if it where an adult things might change depending on how he presented the challange. there are polite ways and some not so polite ways and each is delt with in a different manner.
As for doing anything in front of the class , no I dont think so , I dislike the idea of haveing qitnesses if things ended up in court. The exception would be if they came onto the floor and started kicking and swinging.
Oh and as to calling to plice I dont have a cell phone or phone in my school. nor do I allow the use of one within the school except in my office

[tshadowchaser]

dup post
edit by me

[Tez3]

Just an idea here. Everyone is assuming this kid walking in doesn't know anything, childishly wants a challenge and will attack when refuses also he wants to take over the class. What if he walked in quietly because he was confident because he knows he can actually fight, in fact he was the next Bruce Lee/ Chuck Liddell and this was the only way anyone would take him seriously as everyone assumes they know more than he? It may be unlikely but it's about as likely as someone walking into my club to challenge anyone.

If someone walks into your club/school and speaks with respect ( there is nothing in the OP to suggest he doesn't) do they only get respect back if they are over a certain age? Everyone keeps refering to 'the kid' of how immature he is etc what if he's not? there are many mature 15 year olds out there who have had the sort of life where they grew up quickly. There are many 'child' carers in this country who support and care for their families.
Anyone entering through our door is given the benefit of the doubt until it proves otherwise. If he came in and said he wants to fight there's no reason for him not to join in with the warm up and then sparring with us. if he went over the top he wouldn't be the first and it's easily controlled with no harm done. He's not stepping on any egos and being treated seriously may do him the world of good. He'd learn he doesn't have to go round issuing challenges but will be treated as one of the team if he works hard. If he doesn't act like a child no reason to treat him as one.

We know our instructor can fight, we know we can fight, we also know we can be beaten, it's no big deal. We train hard but we also have a good laugh and a lot of fun. If the challenger joined us we'd make sure he never lived down the challenging bit lol! Anyone's welcome to join us, bring a sense of humour though!

[Sukerkin]

I haven't stuck my tuppence in the ring on this one as it's highly unlikely that it's a situation I would ever face, given my art.

Hypothetically tho', I think I sit in the camp of those who would not dismiss the challenger out of hand but would explain that he's chosen an inappropriate way to go about things.

If he was serious enough to boldly walk in and speak to me in such a fashion then he's serious enough to demonstrate what he thinks he knows in a manner more in keeping with the mature mien of a dojo environment.

If that's really not what he's after, then child or adult, I would not be inclined to allow him to remain before kamiza with such an attitude.

[MarkBarlow]

J
If someone walks into your club/school and speaks with respect ( there is nothing in the OP to suggest he doesn't) do they only get respect back if they are over a certain age? Everyone keeps refering to 'the kid' of how immature he is etc what if he's not? there are many mature 15 year olds out there who have had the sort of life where they grew up quickly. There are many 'child' carers in this country who support and care for their families.


I can respect him for having the courage and self confidence to challenge the instructor and I can overlook his not knowing proper protocol. Regardless, I'll require him to follow the same procedure as anyone else. Making exceptions for his age is as bad as being prejudiced because of it.

[Em MacIntosh]

At 15 there's too much legal hassle. It would be an impossibility. At 18/21 I'd call legal aid or sit down with a lawyer and find out all the particulars and if there is a waiver that would remove me of all liability. If so, I may choose to accept the challenge at a later date, arrange for medics on site (split the cost), each of us would bring one witness, all forms would be signed. There would be rules, agreed on beforehand. It would be full contact. No biting, gouging, scratching, limb destruction or groin-grappling. If there were no rules I'd boobie trap the site ahead of time, sneak up on him and hit him with a brick then proceed to barbecue and eat him.

[MarkBarlow]

At 15 there's too much legal hassle. It would be an impossibility. At 18/21 I'd call legal aid or sit down with a lawyer and find out all the particulars and if there is a waiver that would remove me of all liability. If so, I may choose to accept the challenge at a later date, arrange for medics on site (split the cost), each of us would bring one witness, all forms would be signed. There would be rules, agreed on beforehand. It would be full contact. No biting, gouging, scratching, limb destruction or groin-grappling. If there were no rules I'd boobie trap the site ahead of time, sneak up on him and hit him with a brick then proceed to barbecue and eat him.

Unfortunately, even if both parties agree beforehand to a duel/challenge, it doesn't absolve either party from a criminal offense. Training and sparring is class is an accepted aspect of the martial arts but something like you're describing can get you arrested.

[Em MacIntosh]

BBQing people does tend to get you arrested lol
I heard from my dad that back in the "good'ol days" there was an actual right to consent to a fight where if both parties consented no one could be held accountable as long as a "reasonable" amount of force was used in the situation (whatever that means). Medics are expensive, I imagine, to keep on stand-by. I also have a funny feeling that you can't make a contract for a situation like this. You'd have to assume the other party has honor. A rare commodity these days...

[tshadowchaser]

it has been suggested that the young man may just want to find out what he knows and how good he is but dose not know the proper way of doing things. This may well be the fact but as he claimed to have gone to schools in other towns and done the same thing it seems to me somewhere along the line someone shouldd have told him the proper wy of doing things

[Carol]

it has been suggested that the young man may just want to find out what he knows and how good he is but dose not know the proper way of doing things. This may well be the fact but as he claimed to have gone to schools in other towns and done the same thing it seems to me somewhere along the line someone shouldd have told him the proper wy of doing things

People that don't know the right way to approach something are often inconsistent and hesitant. The way the teen came in and first challenged you, then asked about Grimfang.....he seemed intent and focused on his purpose...whether it was proper or not.

Personally I thought you did a great job of handling the situation sir. :asian:

[Sukerkin]

Did this really happen, Carol? I thought it was a hypothetical situation :o.

[Carol]

Did this really happen, Carol? I thought it was a hypothetical situation :o.

Out of respect for Sheldon and his school, I didn't add any details in the original post...or even hint to the idea that it actually happened. However, since he's shared the details...I can say yes, it did happen, and it happened when I was there.

Never saw someone try to challenge an MA instructor before...that was definitely a first.

[Sukerkin]

:scrurries back to read the 'real' response:

Crikey! All I can say is, "Well done that man!" followed by :sensei rei:.

[tshadowchaser]

Yes folks it did happen the day before she posted the first post in thread

Yes it was asked as a hypothetical situation because as she said out of respect. I was going to keep out of the thread but got caught up in the thread.
I really wanted and still want people to say what they think about the situation so I could get a general idea of what others thought/think

[Carol]

:scrurries back to read the 'real' response:

Crikey! All I can say is, "Well done that man!" followed by :sensei rei:.

Astoundingly well done. He sized up the situation beautifully and pushed back on the teen with enough mustard to open the young fellow's eyes a bit, but still made an honest attempt to bring him in to class and make an honest student out of him (with his parent's permission, naturally).

[tshadowchaser]

BTW the young man has NOT returned as of yet but maybe he will and hopefuly he will take part or at least watch a full class or two

[Sukerkin]

I cross my fingers that he does - it sounds as if he needs to learn a few things both martial and social and walked into the right place for both :tup:.

[grydth]

Astoundingly well done. He sized up the situation beautifully and pushed back on the teen with enough mustard to open the young fellow's eyes a bit, but still made an honest attempt to bring him in to class and make an honest student out of him (with his parent's permission, naturally).

Carol, you have performed an excellent service (one of so many) in bringing this story to public notice, and in doing so in a way respectful and acceptable.

Ts.... many can write high sounding posts from an easy chair. You walked the walk, and did that despite what must have been considerable provocation. Now THAT is what a sensei should be and should do.

All we seem to hear of in life are the phony sokes, the McDojo's, the mindless violence, the inflated 20th dans.... but then, there's this. Even a jaded individual such as I feel a little better about the state of the arts and the society after reading this.

[kidswarrior]

Astoundingly well done. He sized up the situation beautifully and pushed back on the teen with enough mustard to open the young fellow's eyes a bit, but still made an honest attempt to bring him in to class and make an honest student out of him (with his parent's permission, naturally).I agree. To me, this shows a mix of long experience as an instructor, holding to principle (no one gets a complete pass on walking into another's studio like this), and compassion (inviting him back--even hoping for it? Don't know that I could have gone that extra mile). Well done, for sure. :asian:

[Rich Parsons]

As has been discussed in a different thread many things in the world of Martial Arts have changed in the last 30 years.
When I was younger and less gray my instructor had more than a few challengers walk into his school. They where met with respect and we let them try to prove themselves on the floor. i fought many of these challengers and so did a few others as well as my instructor. My instructor also put me in a few situations where I fought because he wanted to see if another instructor was truly what he claimed to be. BUT that was then and this is now and such practices are now frowned upon by most.
I do recall one young man who came in to prove his worth and was defeated , a year later he came back and tried again. This went on for 4 years with a different student defeating the young man but not seriously hurting him. After the 4th time my instructor told the man that if he came back again he would have to pay $100 to step out on the floor because my instructor was tired of giving him free lessons each year.
In today’s world with all the laws protecting youth and everyone being sue happy it is almost foolish for a person to accept a challenge. Still little things like challenges keep us on our toes both mentally and physically and we must ever be aware that such things happen.

Now for those that have read this thread I am going to take it off track a little.
The young man asked if he could teach the class and show them what he had learned. ( He has no idea what i teach or what I have taught)
Would you let this young man walk to the head of your class and demonstrate his knowledge. If so what would you do after he demonstrated??? I ask this in all seriousness.


No, I would not let him demo or teach.

I would do what I have done and did before.

If someone I knew asked to do a demo, I would consider it based upon my relationship with the person and what I knew of them.

[Laurentkd]

I would ask him to come back with his parents and sign up for classes. Since he is a minor, he can't legally sign the contract or the waiver.

I agree with this exactly. #1 prevents any liability issues. #2 gives an easy out of the situation without it turning ugly.
We have had a couple kids come in like this over the years (there is a school down the street that...well let's just say they don't teach the same philosophy we do). Everytime we tell the kid "Sure! Just bring a parent up here to sign a waiver and we'll hit the mat!" We have yet to have one show a second time.

[Kodiak61]

I like the idea of Rock – Paper – Scissors; However I would NOT accept the challenge. The training principles we work under call for disciple and respect. I would offer a free week of lessons.

[tshadowchaser]

A free weeks lessons sounds like another great idea.

Yhis thread was not started for me to take credit foir anything on my part. I wish those reading it for the first time or 2nd or whatever would continue to express themsleves on how to deal with people who come into a school and issue a challange.

[onibaku]

I'll say no. but if he still want to fight, I'll fight only as self-defense

[kidswarrior]

A free weeks lessons sounds like another great idea.

Yhis thread was not started for me to take credit foir anything on my part. I wish those reading it for the first time or 2nd or whatever would continue to express themsleves on how to deal with people who come into a school and issue a challange.I believe the point (made several times in the course of the thread) that this is a teen could be drawn out a little further.

Just as a counterpoint, an adult who would do something like this, in my mind, is on his own. Several ways have been suggested to get rid of such a person. My personal favorite was in another thread, where someone mentioned their sifu responded to a challenge of 'What if I hit you', with 'Come up and try it'. The challenger did for about five minutes, left and never came back. That's a different, much smaller liability issue to me, so more easily handled (Hey, if an adult comes into my class and tries to attack me, and all I do is block, what ammunition does he have to tell the authorities).

But a teen, well, I work with challenging teens (by choice :rolleyes:), and often the old maxim is true: Obnoxious behavior is a cry for help. So as much as we hate it, sometimes being able to see past the surface behavior to the kid's real need is what might really turn that adolescent around--or just continue what he may have started, and not know how to finish (the passage from teenager to adulthood).

So, ts, I know you want to get the spotlight off your self and onto solutions, but still gotta say again, kudos for your handling of this so far. And as far as how to go forward, I'd just say that your willingness and effort to pull this kid into the fold of your training family (one week free lessons, or whatever) is the approach I would lean toward.