My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

I can't speak of the national martial arts situation in the late 80's (I started in '94), but I can imagine that your sensei was a man of incredible foresight. I understand that it was the mid to later '80s that karate tournaments began to incorporate more "protective restrictions" including more padding and less contact. Since the tournaments were becoming more popular, schools would (my guess) train more towards tournament success and less for the traditional art.

If todays state of the arts is any indication of what he saw, MMA and non-traditional "reality" based arts have taken away the mystique of the average person who might be interested in marital arts...instead of seeing Chuck Norris kick a bunch of biker's asses, they see Chuck Liddell bringing the pain (for the record, I am a biker who is also a fan of Chuck Liddell).

Then again, I could be way off base. It happens more often than not.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place.

I think that this is true. I'm pleased to say that pockets of resistance are there though!

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.


I don't know, but I don't think the "day of the warrior" has passed. There are a lot of soldiers (military) and sheepdogs (from cops to your neighborhood watchman) out there that live a warrior ethos.

I do think that there has been a decline of wierdo behavior in regards to traditional arts. There seem to be less people out there trying to make up for a low self-concept by trying to fullfill a warrior archtype through the acting out of a faux tradition, as if they are in another time and culture (of which their mutation of it never really existed at all). You know...guys like these: http://www.goldendragondojo.com/instructors.html

But, I think that this is a good thing... :idunno:

C.

. You know...guys like these: http://www.goldendragondojo.com/instructors.html
C.

I hit the link and involuntarily snickered immediately...I need to go back to it and actually look at the page...

You're not alone with the s******ing, Stone :o.

We've had a few discourses on the nature of the 'Warrior' and they ran into difficulties as there was something of a schism over just what a warrior is.

For example, I have a particularly idealistic notion of what makes a warrior, as contrasted to a fighter or a soldier. I don't believe that it's a very realistic notion I hold but, to me, it's very real distinction. Others think that it's not a term restricted merely to martial subjects any more, whereas, in complete inversion of this, others consider that anyone who studies and uses weapons is a warrior and noone else is etc etc.

Is the day of the warrior passed?

Our governments would like it to be so - a docile, passive, popuation is much more easily regulated. However, I do feel that it is an attitude of mind that is part and parcel of being human for some of us and so, as long as people are born that have that martial spark then the age is never trully gone.

I should clarify that by this I don't mean just training in the martial arts. I do that and I consider myself to be much more a gardener than a warrior (altho' I am equally happy with a sword or a trowel in my hand :D). There are people still that have a militant soul that is only satisfied when following a martial path and they continue to be born.

EDIT: Darn it, the swear-filter mistook part of one of my words above as being an offensive term used to describe a black person! The word is a more English variant of 'snickering' - I'm sure you'll work it out ... political correctness gone mad it is :D

EDIT: Darn it, the swear-filter mistook part of one of my words above as being an offensive term used to describe a black person! The word is a more English variant of 'snickering' - I'm sure you'll work it out ... political correctness gone mad it is :D

Thats some filter.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments.

You Sensei had great insite. Many changes have happened in what was called the Martial Arts from the eighties on but many had happened from the sixties to the eighties also.
Tournaments became highly padded with "friendship" being pushed upon the compeditors not the "beat the hell out of him and show him who is better" attitude. Tournaments where once about which school produced the best fighters and about punishing your opponet. In the eighties the lets not hurt anyone attitude became popular and the where all friends also.
As for the warrior well there are still some on the tournament circuts but not nearly as many as befor.
Has all this been for the best? I have my personal opion but it is my thoughts on what was once a proving ground to test your physical condition, reflexes, and ability compared with with what I see today. Now don't get me wrong there is plenty of speed and reflex out there today and some great technitions but way to much of what i see in tournaments today is slop.
As for the dojo's, well, most of the schools do not have extreem physical workouts today and are focused more on getting mommy to bring in little johnny and jane than they are in teaching people to survive getting punched in the face. Rank is now being handed out in many places to people who would not have lasted the first day or week in the old schools. Also there are way to many schools being operated today by people whith rank and titles that they bought or where given and never earned.
:soapbox:

ok I'll let that go for other threads.

Your Sensei had a true vision of what was to come

Yes, some of you are correct, warriors can and do come from many walks of life. My post is in reference to my Sensei and his interpretation of what he saw coming back in the late 1980s. In the late 50s to the early 60s there was an influx of military people with wartime disciplines and a knowledge of Martial Arts that they acquired in there off time from bases in Okinawa, Korea and Japan. Many people when thinking of a warrior think of a killing machine and they are not wrong, but my Sensei looked past that to the core of the person. He was a pioneer in his own right and opened up his dojo in the early 60s. By the mid 80s he sadly decided to drop out of formal training and gave up his dojo to teach a select few at his home. In the 60s when I started, his was the only dojo in our city and if he would have stayed he could have made a lot of money, but by the mid 80s there were many schools. Some of these dojo’s were a product of the movie fad Martial Arts and others from the wave of Karate that sweep across the United States from the west coast where Martial Arts had a good foot hold. He was a very honorable person that felt quality was more important then size of school but soon found he could not compete with that newer mentality of “give them what they want“. Also with his military teachings of discipline, honesty, integrity that he felt meshed well with Martial Arts was disillusioned with this new breed. This is strictly an observation on his and my part having lived through it and to see first hand with our own eyes. His words in the late 80s was that the day of the warrior was passing and sadly enough having been there myself, and here now, I must agree with him. For those old warriors that are still out there, pass the word, keep the faith, and fight the good fight.

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.


Nice post Could'nt rep you all out.

Warriors are still being born every day and warriorship still lives on in those defending freedom and those protecting people in other way's. Have some martial arts changed sure. Some for the better and some for the worse. Just my 02.

Thank you Brian for your input. I have one of those warriors in training at this time. My son graduated from the Army Basic combat training at Ft Benning Ga on Sep, 6th and is currently in Officer Candidate School for the next 3 months. He spent 12 years in Martial Arts and was in Law enforcement before making the commitment to serve our country. I will agree he is a warrior. The Army training has not changed, and we still have the best fighting force in the world. But my Sensei made a statement years ago pertaining to changes in attitude that the Martial artists in that day were beginning to demonstrate openly at public events, and the way some were conducting themselves in and out of their DoJo. As “Field Discipline” put it so nicely there are still pockets of resistance out there pertaining to “the day of the warrior has passed“. Maybe my Sensei stands corrected and he should have said that the day of the warrior spirit has passed. Either way there definitely have been some changes that have taken place from what I remember. Once again thanks for your input.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.



If by that you mean that people are training and even being trained with basicly only sport in mind, yes.. that is true unfortunently.

However, there are a few dojo's out there that DO NOT train primarily for sport and that the advanced students at least remember that traditional martial arts are about combat survival, and protecting yourself and your family and friends.
'Warrior' I have heard defined as an "individulistic fighter who does not fight as a team member like a soldier" as a "self reliant man who will fight if he has to" even as "any one in a military or similer role where they may have to use violance to protect some one else or themselves."

so you can see that its aparantly a loose term. But I agree that there are a lot of people out there who think that martial arts should be about sport, and sportsmanship, and perhaps even have the combative part removed and leave only art.
I guess I am old school, Martial means military or combative, and that is why martial arts were invented and developed. so I will resist any 'sportification' of the style I train in, and train and keep what is handed down to me as a viable and effective system of self defence that happens to have a lot of other benifits.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.

I believe most use the term warrior incorrectly. A warrior is a person habitually engaged in warfare. Many of us have added additional aspects to being a warrior like a code of conduct, or being a part of a caste or class of their own. Ethical codes are utilized in order to ensure the warrior class is not dangerous to the rest of society. Warrior codes usually have common features and value honor in the form of faith, loyalty, and bravery.

Why, that could describe most of the world’s militaries. No I think the days of the warrior are far from being over. Pertaining to martial arts especially in America there are still many good schools teaching and training warriors everyday just as there are others which do not.

Danny

You're not alone with the s******ing, Stone :o.

We've had a few discourses on the nature of the 'Warrior' and they ran into difficulties as there was something of a schism over just what a warrior is.


Ultimately, these discussions end up boiling down to what one defines as a warrior. And the problem (as I believe has been discussed in previous threads) is that the word "warrior" is emotionally charged. People, particularly personality types who study martial arts, have a lot of emotional/identity investment with the idea of "warrior." What I find more often then not is that people adjust the definition of the word "warrior" so that they can be included in the definition. Or, they adjust the definition so that NO ONE in this day and age can be a "warrior," because if they can't be one, then no one can.

Anyway, this is just my observation. So, to answer the original question, one needs to clarify (without there being any "right" or "wrong" answers) what being a "warrior" means to them first.

That said, I believe that a warrior is someone who is willing to, without hesitation or question, put themselves in danger to fight for the betterment of mankind. This type of person is, by nature, selfless to a degree, and does at least try to follow a morality and ethos fitting of the kind of person who would do such a selfless act. There is just something inside this kind of person that makes them run towards the danger to help or to fight (metaphorically speaking), and this kind of person couldn't see themselves doing anything different.

Now that I have defined what I think a warrior is, I think that there are many people who are warriors. Soldiers and Cops are usually safe assumptions, but not all soldiers and cops are actually willing to put their ass on the line in a selfless manner, so it isn't always as obvious as it seems. There are plenty of community watchdogs who are warriors as well, but they are even less obvious.

But, I do believe that warriors exist...

So, really, before one answers

Thank you Brian for your input. I have one of those warriors in training at this time. My son graduated from the Army Basic combat training at Ft Benning Ga on Sep, 6th and is currently in Officer Candidate School for the next 3 months. He spent 12 years in Martial Arts and was in Law enforcement before making the commitment to serve our country. I will agree he is a warrior.

Just wanted to say that you should be proud of your son. Since we are talking about warriorship, Ft. Benning being the home of the Infantry and Rangers still maintains a high standard of training, and definatily breeds warriors. [Hell, it's hotter then ballz in the summer, and that by itself will make a 'warrior' out of anyone who can manage to not be a heat casualty! :lol: ]

But the army has a clear set of values that defines the kind of person (by the army standard) that a warrior is. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage are the values that every soldier is supposed to uphold. This mirrors nicely the 7 values of Bushido, ironically.

So, arguably, our military has the best program to date as far as breeding "warriors" is concerned. With that, I just can't agree that the "warrior days" have passed...

I think they are alive and well.

That's just what I think, though.

:)

C.

So, arguably, our military has the best program to date as far as breeding "warriors" is concerned.

I'll argue with that one :wink1:

Seriously though, I agree with Cruentus, you have much to be proud of. We live in difficult times and those are superb values.

I hope that the day of the Warrior is not over.
From my understanding the Samurai code is:

a sense of justice and honesty
courage and contempt for death
self-control
sympathy towards all people
politeness and respect for etiquette
sincerity and respect for one's word of honour
absolute loyalty to one's superior
a duty to defend the honour of one's name and guildTo me, if you hold these type of values close then you are a warrior.

A warrior to me is

The guy who finds your wallet in the street and returns it with the cash still there, without asking for reward.
The guy who pulls over on the freeway to offer help when your car breaks down.
The friend who stands beside you through thick and thinSo, just in my opinion, the day of the warrior is not over - it's just changing.

But then again, this is just my thoughts on the topic.....

According to Inazo Nitobe, the 7 precepts of bushido are:

Justice
Courage
Benevolence
Politeness
Sincerity
Honor
Loyalty

Just for those interested.... :)

But my Sensei made a statement years ago pertaining to changes in attitude that the Martial artists in that day were beginning to demonstrate openly at public events, and the way some were conducting themselves in and out of their DoJo.


First let me say thanks to “Cruentus” for the input, and yes I am very proud of my son. He braved 115 degree temperatures at Benning in full battle gear. They definitely know how to tap that warrior spirit
Please let me set the record straight since I initially started the thread about a statement my Sensei made some 20 years ago. Above is part of a post I wrote stating his feeling pertaining to the reason behind his statement. He was discharged from the US Marine Corps in the late 1950s and as “Cruentus” stated pertaining to values of Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor Integrity, and Personal Courage and how they mirrored nicely with the 7 virtues of Bushido. My Sensei had, demonstrated and also passed on all of these to his students. In the 1950s, and early 1960s there weren’t a lot of dojo’s around and tournaments were far and few between so we trained within our own dojo or traveled from time to time to other cities to train at other dojo’s. Please don’t take me wrong because I am not trying to diminish in any way the training of today, but training was very hard and unforgiving in those days. I will say with all honesty that we trained like warriors. We had sparring only a few times a week because with no protective gear on, you could and did get hurt. Our blocks were sharp because if you missed and got hit it was not their fault but yours for not blocking, or getting out of the way. We were traditional and Kata was first and for most along with drills. But when sparring day came you had better have your game on. My Sensei did not put up with any horse play or disrespect toward each other or toward him and if there we any issues they were always handled on the sparring floor and that is where the truth was taught. Classes were 2 hours long with no socializing during class. From the time you bowed in until the time you bowed out it was all business. All the virtues of bushido were drilled into our heads, because you can’t train to hurt someone and have a bad heart or attitude. Both were found out early on and no one over green belt was guilty of this. We trained hard, sparred hard and most importantly we were all friends. This is what we did and this is how we trained but more importantly this is what we looked for in other dojo’s. This was the standard and when you came into the dojo this is what you adhered to. It wasn’t about your money or dues, no contracts, no court action against each other. There were no sayings like “karate is for everyone” because it wasn’t, you either had it or you didn’t. Was it harsh? I don’t know, you tell me. Would it fly today? His statement in the 80s was “ the day of the warrior has passed ” . He based this on what he saw within the Martial Arts community at the time. Was he right? Was he wrong? That was then and this is now.

You know...guys like these: http://www.goldendragondojo.com/instructors.html


I already check that page regularly for any new pictures so I can get a good laugh now and then.

It is the day of the clown, not the warrior.

I already check that page regularly for any new pictures so I can get a good laugh now and then.

It is the day of the clown, not the warrior.

:rofl:

I hope that the day of the Warrior is not over.
From my understanding the Samurai code is:

a sense of justice and honesty
courage and contempt for death
self-control
sympathy towards all people
politeness and respect for etiquette
sincerity and respect for one's word of honour
absolute loyalty to one's superior
a duty to defend the honour of one's name and guildTo me, if you hold these type of values close then you are a warrior.

A warrior to me is

The guy who finds your wallet in the street and returns it with the cash still there, without asking for reward.
The guy who pulls over on the freeway to offer help when your car breaks down.
The friend who stands beside you through thick and thinSo, just in my opinion, the day of the warrior is not over - it's just changing.

But then again, this is just my thoughts on the topic.....


IMO the day of the warrior is NOT over. The difference between a warrior and a killer is a moral ethos. Warriorship is a quality of an individual stemming from his (or her) spirit. It's an indomitable will coupled with a compassion for humanity. Those who are willing to stand up for right regardless of personal danger. Here is one of my favorite warrior philosophies from the Late Mr. Humphrey.

Wherever I go,
everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.
Wherever I am,
anyone in need has a friend.
Whenever I return home,
everyone is happy I am there



And here is a great anology for todays warrior.
This letter was written by, Charles Grennel and his comrades who are veterans of the Global War On Terror. Grennel is an Army Reservist who spent two years in Iraq and was a principal in putting together the first Iraqi elections January of 2005. It was written to Jill Edwards who is one of the students at the University of Washington who did not want to honor Medal of Honor winner USMC Colonel Greg Boyington because she does not think those who serve in the U.S. Armed services are good role models.

To: Edwards, Jill (student, UW)
Subject: Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Miss Edwards, I read of your 'student activity' regarding the proposed memorial to Col Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor winner. I suspect you will receive a bellyful of angry e-mails from conservative folks like me You may be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of servicemen and servicewomen on whose shoulders you and your fellow students stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being a sheep - - as long as you know and accept what you are.
William J. Bennett, in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 said: 'Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.'

We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. Then there are the wolves and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Then there are sheepdogs and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the unchartered path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our chil dren are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep.
Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, 'Baa.'

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America , more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, 'Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes.'
The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, 'Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.' You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory & nbsp;crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness.
They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa , when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury , New Jersey . Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When they learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd and the other passengers confronted the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke. Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be.

It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously.

Its ok to be a sheep, but do not kick the sheep dog. Indeed, the sheep dog may just run a little harder, strive to protect a little better and be fully prepared to pay an ultimate price in battle and spirit with the sheep moving from 'Bhaa' to 'thanks'. We do not call for gifts or freedoms beyond our lot. We just need a small pat on the head, a smile and a thank you to fill the emotional tank which is drained protecting the sheep. And when our number is called by 'The Almighty', and day retreats into night, a small prayer before the heavens just may be in order to say thanks for letting you continue to be a sheep. And be grateful for the thousands - - millions - - of American sheepdogs who permit you the freedom to express even bad ideas.

Just wanted to say that you should be proud of your son. Since we are talking about warriorship, Ft. Benning being the home of the Infantry and Rangers still maintains a high standard of training, and definatily breeds warriors. [Hell, it's hotter then ballz in the summer, and that by itself will make a 'warrior' out of anyone who can manage to not be a heat casualty! :lol: ]

But the army has a clear set of values that defines the kind of person (by the army standard) that a warrior is. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage are the values that every soldier is supposed to uphold. This mirrors nicely the 7 values of Bushido, ironically.

So, arguably, our military has the best program to date as far as breeding "warriors" is concerned. With that, I just can't agree that the "warrior days" have passed...

I think they are alive and well.

That's just what I think, though.

:)

C.
I would argue that a ranger is an ELITE SOLDIER!!! not a warrior. a warrior is some one who is interested in personal glory and single combat, not victory in battle in organized warfare.
If say ohh 50 sue warriors were to meet 40 well trained infantry soldiers on the plains in 1875.. the sue warriors will loose!! not because they are less able individual fighters.. they may well be better! but because a soldier is a team fighter and a professional at killing and other wise imposing his will with his unit on the enemy!!
if I have to go into combat against true warriors.. I want true and well trained soldiers to fight with!!! when a group of warriors meet an even smaller group of soldiers on the battle field, the soldiers win! this is historical fact. the Roman soldier won against the Celtic warrior, not because in single combat he was better! .. but because he fought as part of a well oiled machine of killing and imposing his and the roman will on the enemy! this is still true! a Ranger unit of any size.. just like an SAS unit or a Seal Team or any other Elite Military unit fights as a team!!! their job is to kill or other wise render the enemy unable to impose their will on the battlefield or any where else. Please ask any SAS, Ranger, Delta, Special Boat Squadron, or any other Elite military unite member, and they will tell you they are soldiers! members of an elite team. that does not mean they may not be individually warriors in that they are well trained in individual combat, or capable of kicking most peoples asses in a one on one fight, but when they are doing business they do it as a team and are out to do it so that more of the enemy die for their country or cause then the men of their unit do!

I
And here is a great anology for todays warrior.
This letter was written by, Charles Grennel and his comrades who are veterans of the Global War On Terror. Grennel is an Army Reservist who spent two years in Iraq and was a principal in putting together the first Iraqi elections January of 2005. It was written to Jill Edwards who is one of the students at the University of Washington who did not want to honor Medal of Honor winner USMC Colonel Greg Boyington because she does not think those who serve in the U.S. Armed services are good role models.

To: Edwards, Jill (student, UW)
Subject: Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Miss Edwards, I read of your 'student activity' regarding the proposed memorial to Col Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor winner. I suspect you will receive a bellyful of angry e-mails from conservative folks like me You may be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of servicemen and servicewomen on whose shoulders you and your fellow students stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being a sheep - - as long as you know and accept what you are.
William J. Bennett, in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 said: 'Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.'

We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. Then there are the wolves and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
...



The majority of this is a very close paraphrase of David Grossman's piece, which you can find HERE (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm). The points remain valid -- but correctly attributing them is, I think, important, and essential to integrity.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.


Without asking him specifically what he meant by the use, I can take a guess based on lots of other conversations I have had with people (note it is a guess and my opinion).

Most of the time I have heard that expression, they are NOT talking about warriors as in police, military, etc. They are referring to the old concept of warrior and scholar or more specifically a fighter. In the early days of karate in the 60's and 70's you used to hear all of the stories that the class was all hard sparring and injuries were common. The men (very rarely were women and children there) not only liked that training they thrived on it. The classes didn't focus too much on the "arts" part, but really focused on the "martial". I think that many of today's MMA fighters are like those old school students. They like to fight and they like to train to fight and aren't concerned with alot of the other things.

I think he is right in that aspect. MA's are becoming more open to all people and all people can benefit from the training. Not all people train to be the best fighter out there or want to fight. Many people argue that most of today's training is watered down and "real dojos/schools" are rare.

My Sensei made a statement back in the mid to late eighties that the day of the warrior had passed. He felt that pertaining to Martial Arts, he saw a change taking place. He saw this change in the dojo’s as well as karate tournaments. Would anyone care to share some thoughts on the above statement, and the health of the Martial Arts today. Nothing negative please, just observations.


This train of thought is along the same lines as "when I was your age, we had to walk to school 10 miles in 3ft of snow uphill both ways." lol

People want to believe that they are doing things the best way in their era. Martial arts is no exception. Things are more widespread that they use to be,but that goes for everything. Fact is, their are more people with the 'warrior' mindset than there use to be because more people are training. There is alot of crap out there,but there are more good quality schools than you think.
Think of the number of people on these forums you believe belong to good quality schools, that's just a drop in the bucket! :ultracool