Complaints about Moderation of Shaolin Do? Thread.

[fist of fury]

If they don't want ridicule then they shouldn't place themsleves in a public spot light and make false claims. I didn't realize that joking around about someone was considered offensive. They have the right to defend themselves and were never denied that right and they can easily post here just like anyone else.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by fist of fury
If they don't want ridicule then they shouldn't place themsleves in a public spot light and make false claims. I didn't realize that joking around about someone was considered offensive. They have the right to defend themselves and were never denied that right and they can easily post here just like anyone else.

You too make a solid point. It's possible the ridicule could forwarn
others looking to educate themselves about self defense.

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen, while you have valid points, the fact remains that several of the comments were downright cruel towards someone who had no control over a physical condition.

We recieved some complaints, investigated and trimmed the 'fat' out of this thread. Rather than pass a judgement on which post was ok, and which wasn't, we removed all off topic posts to focus on the main topics of this thread.

The fact that the founder had a condition does not effect the quality of his martial arts, and is besides the point. You can better prove your position on the quality and authentisity of this art by displaying the facts, not making personal attacks on the physical disfigurements of the deceased. The fact that someone is overweight, blind, or otherwise 'physically challenged or disfigured' has no bearing on the quality of their arts.

Yiliquan1 made a very valid point : "its practitioners, though deluded and conned, are still people..."

You will not convert them or members of any art by ridiculing them or their art. That only plants their feet firmer as they try to prove you wrong.

State the facts on the art, not the practitioners disfigurements.
The other statements elsewhere on this board concerning other practitioner has to my eyes delt not with how they look, but more so on validity of concepts and quality of arts.


As far as the majority of the 'funny poses', those were cute, and can be reposted in the humor forum. Just be certain to include at least 1 of your own. :)

[Kirk]

Okay, the founder's been dead for like a hundred years. I see
no difference between the deleted posts the comments of "I can
kick Bruce Lee's ass, because he's dead" posts.

[Bob Hubbard]

Had nothing to do with his being dead. However the comment "They have the right to defend themselves and were never denied that right and they can easily post here just like anyone else. " makes me wonder if MartialTalk is so widely known as to reach the afterlife? Do they have Net Access in Valhalla? :)

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Had nothing to do with his being dead. However the comment "They have the right to defend themselves and were never denied that right and they can easily post here just like anyone else. " makes me wonder if MartialTalk is so widely known as to reach the afterlife? Do they have Net Access in Valhalla? :)

Huh?

I guess it doesn't matter, this is your show.

I was under the understanding that you didn't like the postings
about the hairiest "grandmaster" to ever walk the face of the
earth. Who's much, MUCH older than Bruce. But he's fair game.

:confused:


As far as posting a picture of myself, if you can find a picture on
of me in my gi, on a public website, then by all means, post it in
the humor forum and make fun of me all you want.

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Had nothing to do with his being dead. However the comment "They have the right to defend themselves and were never denied that right and they can easily post here just like anyone else. " makes me wonder if MartialTalk is so widely known as to reach the afterlife? Do they have Net Access in Valhalla? :)

No they meant anyone from that organization. But it's your playground so I'll play by your rules. And again I still say if you don't want to be joked about then don't put yourself on the web. Especially if you have no sense of humor and I'll be the first to admit I'm a jerk and have a very harsh sense of humor. I forgot this is a day and age where everybody gets offended with everything.

[Bob Hubbard]

Which disability of Bruces was commented on in any of the posts you mentioned?

I didn't realize that the quality of an art depended solely on the founders physical perfection. It is such a shame that this is a criteria, as there are many arts I guess are frauds due to their founders being old, obese, blind, deaf, balding or incontient. Or is that ok, as long as they don't suffer from something more 'funny'?

The point was the offending jokes were not about someone being dead, or striking a weird pose. I've seen enough of those on other boards, and some are admitedly funny. I'll MST3K a technique tape, or a class myself from time to time.

It was about making a joke out of a condition that was beyond their control. It is rather interesting to note that this individual managed to accomplish what he did, in an era where he would otherwise have been subjected to being a sideshow freak. I am so glad we have moved beyond that stage.

If your point was this art is bad because the founder had a hair condition, then I guess Kenpo is out because so many of its high ranking blackbelts are overweight. What next, Tai Chi is bad because so many of its practitioners are old? Frankly, I expect better from our long time members.

If your point is that this art is not any good, then please provide a better arguement than "give him a bone". Because if thats the best you can do, then you have given no real reason why there is anything wrong with this art.


Thank you.

[Bob Hubbard]

Moderator Note:
This thread was broken off from the original to allow for a seperate thread for comments on this moderation.

:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me put -my- position on this:
I'd rather not see -ANY- one poked fun at.

Friendly ribbing is fine... its when we get complaints that we have to act. This does not give anyone the right to go back thru year old posts and flood us with complaints. Acting like a child having a temper tantrum will only result in one getting the boot.

Some people have refered to this forum as "MartialSlam". I for one am tired of hearing that. This is your playground. Dont crap in the sandbox.

We try to be fair, but things slip thru the cracks. We are all only human.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

It was about making a joke out of a condition that was beyond their control. It is rather interesting to note that this individual managed to accomplish what he did, in an era where he would otherwise have been subjected to being a sideshow freak. I am so glad we have moved beyond that stage.

If your point was this art is bad because the founder had a hair condition, then I guess Kenpo is out because so many of its high ranking blackbelts are overweight. What next, Tai Chi is bad because so many of its practitioners are old? Frankly, I expect better from our long time members.


Interesting point. But this post remains?


Originally posted by GouRonin
What are you talking about? Most Kenpoists don't know what to do with a knife other than to use it to cut their steak to put in their fat bellies.

Now the filipinos...watch out for them...

Very interesting.


I called a dermotologist. This is called hypertrichosis, or hirsutism
in women. The person in said picture died well over 100 years
ago. The doctor on the phone said that saying a condition like
the person in the picture had is rare, is an over statement. The
sufferers of today would be someone like Robin Williams, who has
a noticeable excess of hair. I realize this is supposed to be a
"friendly" discussion here, but I see a lack of consistancy, and an
overbearance. Moderators should be when something is out of
hand not a big brother. Maybe it's a cultural thing. With the
exception of downtown Austin .. most Texans aren't so darned
politically correct.

As for the complaints .. I see another lack of consistancy.
Whenever I've reported a post, all that's ever happened was a
mod warning, IF that.

[Bob Hubbard]

Gous done Kenpo and FMA... Have you done Shaolin Do?

The otherside of this is, the thread concerned questions on the art. The removed posts had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Regarding Moderation and complaints, we look into every one...even the frivilous ones that a few individuals have put in, one after the other after the other. We've tried leaving some threads alone, hoping that maturity will show up...and we get "where the hell are the mods'. We go in and moderate and get 'go the hell away mods'. Gee, damned either way, huh? I've got people who say 'good job there'. And I have people who say 'too hard man'. Whose right?

There are folks who were canned on their 4th post...others who got a warning for doing something 3x worse, on their 400th post.

Purhaps this is too PC, but you have still not convinced me that some guy's hair disorder is in anyway shape or form related to the quality of his martial art. Convince me of that, and I will personally restore all the cut posts.

Or is the only way you can prove an art is bad is to hold the founder and students up to ridicule?

The posts were culled en-masse as they were off topic, complained about, and in poor taste. End of story.

Have we missed a few hundred other similar cases? Possibly. But I don't find commenting on the gaudiness of Elvis' black belt, or someone saying they could kick a dead guys ass to be in the same league here.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Gous done Kenpo and FMA... Have you done Shaolin Do?


He doesn't claim to anymore, and his attack wasn't on the art,
but on it's practitioners.

So then are you going to modify the rules?

Be respectful of the other arts, and your fellow members
unless you've studied that art


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
The otherside of this is, the thread concerned questions on the art. The removed posts had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Yeah, okay. :shrug: Said thread doesn't exist along side a
million others that have gone off topic? Why aren't you deleting
those posts?


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Purhaps this is too PC, but you have still not convinced me that some guy's hair disorder is in anyway shape or form related to the quality of his martial art. Convince me of that, and I will personally restore all the cut posts.

Hmmm .. I've seen Cthulu talk way worse than that CMD. The
only source I found on the subject was ONE web page. He called
it a cult. I didn't even see a mod warning there.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Or is the only way you can prove an art is bad is to hold the founder and students up to ridicule?

There's been loads of ridicule on this board, yet it all remained.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Have we missed a few hundred other similar cases? Possibly. But I don't find commenting on the gaudiness of Elvis' black belt, or someone saying they could kick a dead guys ass to be in the same league here.

How about calling someone retarded? It's happened a couple
times in various threads. But, yet, the, posts, remained.
Are retarded people not held in the same reverance as really hairy
people?



You and I see way different here friend. Yet this can be
an important thread, if you'd like to establish some consistancy
in acceptable/unacceptable posting.

[Bob Hubbard]

I deny none of the above.

We cannot fix the past, only the future.

We have recently updated the rules for this forum to correct certain issues. We shouldn't have to have more than 'Dont be a jerk', but sadly we do. As we find more gaps in the armour, we will probably have to update them again.

We rely on our members to keep things civil and for the most part, they do. We allow a little wandering in the treads as most conversations do do that. Where we've seen a way to split things, we have been, and sometimes, we cant find a place to split, so we've expanded the topic to cover the wider subject.

We really try not to do 'in your face' moderation. This thread is an exception to that long standing policy.


You and I see way different here friend. Yet this can be
an important thread, if you'd like to establish some consistancy
in acceptable/unacceptable posting.

Let us agree to disagree here then, and deal with the growing pains as we work towards that goal.

:asian:

[Cthulhu]

There are several resources available that investigate CMD/Q's cultish behavior. The member, white belt, even offered FIRST HAND knowledge. Most of my information comes from the explosion of discussion on the topic on RMA nearly 10 years ago or so. CMD/Q people, including the 'grandmaster' were tried and convicted of tax fraud, which can also be found on the Internet. The information is out there if you do more than a cursory search for it. Being that I'm currently at work, I don't have the time nor inclination to do that research for you. Even if at home, I would not.

Cthulhu

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
There are several resources available that investigate CMD/Q's cultish behavior. The member, white belt, even offered FIRST HAND knowledge. Most of my information comes from the explosion of discussion on the topic on RMA nearly 10 years ago or so. CMD/Q people, including the 'grandmaster' were tried and convicted of tax fraud, which can also be found on the Internet. The information is out there if you do more than a cursory search for it. Being that I'm currently at work, I don't have the time nor inclination to do that research for you. Even if at home, I would not.

Cthulhu

I found differently, so it can't be that predominant. I hold an
oracle certification, and know how search engines work, so it
must be well hidden. The grandmaster's tax fraud in no way
negates the art, the same way as facial hair doesn't. Which
is why I used the example. White belt didn't say, cult in that
thread, you did. Again, let's agree to disagree. Peace bro!

[Kirk]

I forgot to mention that I do agree with you on it being a
cult. But it was a fitting example IMO to support my argument.

[arnisador]

There's not much I can add to what Mr. Hubbard has already said, but I'm going to post anyway. We try to walk a fine line here--hoping problems will work themselves out and stepping in when we feel we must. Insulting comments directed at disabled individuals cross the line. Comments about people being 'retarded' have generally merited an in-thread or PMed warning. Of course, even I don't read everything that's posted here. We rely on our members to alert us to problems.

I certainly felt that the comments about the Shaolin-Do founder's physical appearance were inappropriate, and that their removal was very appropriate. For those who disagree with moderation that removes pejorative comments about disabled individuals, there is always rec.martial arts.

Mr. Hubbard owns this site and he has asked several of us to help him administrate and moderate it. We've made some decisions in that regard. One is that we don't want to be associated with a site we're not proud of. We wouldn't be proud of a site that doesn't let adults express themselves; we also wouldn't be proud of a site that is full of profanity, disrespect, and abusive comments.

I grant that the founder is deceased and could not be offended. But the comments are offensive in and of themselves. Reasonable people could disagree about the extent to which his death alters the seriousness of the matter, but making fun of the disabled on MartialTalk is simply a non-starter. It's that simple.

When you're on MartialTalk you're speaking in public as a martial artist. We expect that our members will behave as such. We're rarely disappointed. Often while debating whether or not to post a warning in a thread we find that it startightens itself out as our members exhort one another to be their best. That's heartening, and explains some of the posts cited earlier. Others may have led to in-thread or PMed warnings.

This place is for the members. It costs Mr. Hubbard time (e.g., six hours fixing the Search function this weekend, if I am not mistaken) and $$$--MartialTalk is a money-losing proposition. It costs the rest of the moderation team time. A lot of time, speaking for myself.

This place is for the members. Discussion of the moderation policies is most welcome for that reason. We have made policy changes based on members' comments before--relaxing the profanity filters, for example. Please, continue to let us know how you feel about our moderation policies, but also please recognize that some decisions are very unlikely to change.

This place is for the members. We're doing the best we can to make this a site that our members find useful and that we're proud of. It's clear that what Mr. Hubbard has created is appreciated by most of our members--including those criticizing the mdoeration policy. People don't criticize unless they care, and much as with the government I consider thoughtful criticism a civic duty of every MartialTalk member! But this is a red-flag issue because it is one of the things that makes us "not rec.martial-arts" in accordance with Mr. Hubbard's succinctly stated goal for this forum.

In summary, I fully support this decision and expect that I will advocate that similar incidents in the future be handled in the same manner.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Matt Stone]

The only reason I posted what I posted was because had I made comments about other "founders" such as Bruce Lee (a slacker that never finished his Wing Chun training, and was a devout follower of a semi-cultish guru to hippies), or George Dillman (a fat man who stole his info from legitimate instructors, created his own style and now markets himself well to cover the self-fulfilling wishes that support the bogus claims he makes), or Ed Parker (another chubby dude that should have laid off the poi), or any other instructor, I would have been flamed like a heretic in the middle ages who had shat on the altar of the main church in Rome...

While I was in Japan I learned that it is possible to make either humorous or insulting comments all the while looking like you aren't. Perhaps such a strategy could be used more often in relation to such topics. While I don't condone being "PC," there is still common courtesy that we should observe... Martial Arts claims to teach that in darn near every school. We should simply practice what we preach.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

In my opinion, calling someone a 'slacker' is different from commenting on something they have no control over. I may or may not agree that someone is a slacker, but that's discussion, not ridicule. Similarly for stealing.

Whether obesity is a sign of sloth/lack of willpower or a disability over which one has little or no control is debateable. It's a judgment call I suppose. In terms of moderation I'd look at the context, I suppose.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Cthulhu]

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.htm
http://www.rickross.com/groups/chung.html
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/244.html
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/243.html
http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/articles/dockim99.htm
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.htm
http://www.rickross.com/groups/chung.html
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/244.html
http://anyboard.net/rec/sports/Royal_Dragons_Dungeon/posts/243.html
http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/articles/dockim99.htm
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html

Of all listed, only 2 pages even use the word "cult". The 2nd
one refers to the first, via the cult awareness network. The
others simply state money and/or tax fraud. If tax fraud beget
a cult, then why is Willie Nelson not locked up for cultish activity?

And just because it's discussed on a message board .. does NOT
make it true.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
I certainly felt that the comments about the Shaolin-Do founder's physical appearance were inappropriate, and that their removal was very appropriate. For those who disagree with moderation that removes pejorative comments about disabled individuals, there is always rec.martial arts.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

There's a huuuuge line between overbearance, Barney the
dinosaur martial arts discussion only, and rec.martial.arts' "pejorative comments".
It's called humor, and I resent your name calling. Being hairy is
NOT a disability, so let's call it what it is please? If being
overweight is something that's so easily remedied, being hairy
is remedied even easier, so that argument doesn't fly. You're
saying since fat is correctable, it's okay to poke fun at fat people.
But it's not okay to make a joke at the expense of someone really
hairy, even though he can shave.

I have 2 points to make. One is the lack of consistancy, and the
other is where does your political correctness end? Shall you
complain if someone says "Mailman" instead of "Mail Deliverer"?
Or Stewardess instead of Flight Attendant?

You may accuse me of being facetious, but whitey has been
deemed, by you, as an intolerable word, regardless
of context. Where do you draw the line?

You turn a deaf ear, or put a little PM warning about the use of
the word retarded, which truely IS a disability, unlike being hairy.
But making a joke at the expense of a person, who more than
likely isn't said grandmaster anyways, dead over a 100 years, is
just flat out intolerable? I don't get it.

[Michael Billings]

Treat others as you want to be treated ... in the context of a civilized society. We do not have to be a chest beating, harisuit, testostarone driven society on MartialTalk. I try not to say anything I would not say to someone else, in front of an audience. The "in front of an audience" is important. That is what a forum is generally. It is definitly what MartialTalk is. I never know when I will end up at a camp or seminar with other posters, and as such, what do I want my relationship with them to be.

Now here is an interesting note, often we admire people with strong values, whether we agree with them or not. There is a difference between this and just not having the social skills to know how to disagree without being sarcastic, demeaning, or insulting. It takes a little more effort, especially since I can be just as sarcastic as anyone (yes, I just edited myself.)

I have a lot more to say on this issue, but don't want to be redundant or boring.

1. Generally MartialTalk moderators do a good job.

2. Some people just like to argue (ok if they actually know how to allow for disagreement and don't get personal)

3. Some people are a#$holes and are not going to interact with some people in any way but the way they do. Who are they making look bad ... themselves. None-the-less, you have to interceed.

Remember, if you cannot say it in person, in front of an audience, and deal with the verbal or physical consequences, DON'T SAY IT!!!!!! The consequences may show up on your front door someday, and it would not be pretty. If you have enough of an ego to think you can deal with any possible consequences, then you are probably not mature enough to be on any Board that I want to visit.

Talk the talk, walk the walk, but nobody likes a bully, and there are way more of us than you. That is why I appreciate the moderation. Consistancy, well, keep working on it. It takes a lot of hours to read every string and I don't even pretend to try. My hats off to those who can.

-Michael

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
" makes me wonder if MartialTalk is so widely known as to reach the afterlife? Do they have Net Access in Valhalla? :)

Yes they do and fortunately with that much extra time on thier hands they don't mind their 28.8K modem

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
You're saying since fat is correctable, it's okay to poke fun at fat people.

I don't believe that that's what I've said. Indeed, obesity is clearly a disability, which may or may not be correctable in an individual case.

I would also disagree with you in that I feel that hirsutism as severe as what is in the picture does constitute a disability.


You turn a deaf ear

I don't believe that this is correct. Certainly, however, I'm fallible. I resent the implication that failures in consistency on my part are better explained by malfeasance and intentional selectivity than by incompetence and time pressures leading to a failure on my part to hold to MartialTalk's agreed-upon standards.

When I'm at work I watch my language more than when I'm, say, working out with my long-time friends. It's situational. This situation requires a certain level of decorum too. We have set standards we feel are appropriate, beneficial, and in keeping with our vision for MartialTalk. Someone else might have made a different decision.

Feedback on the standards is welcome. It's less clear to me that the present discussion is beneficial.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Bob Hubbard]

arnisador is actually more laid back than me. He's just more 'professional' in his approach to running this place.

We strive to consistancy, but whats consistant Oct 2001 may not be consistant Jan 2003. As we go, we develop. As we develop, we relax certain rules, strengthen others. Moderation is an evolutionary process, and we will make mistakes.

The fact that we are not infested with trolls and spam is noticed and commented upon often by many individuals. We are not so strict as some boards, nor as lax as others. We try to find a medium.

We always want feedback. We've grown from it. We will however not always do what is suggested.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

When I first found out about these kinds of forums, it was E-budo that I was introduced to. I went there, posted occasionally, actually got to talk with some folks I consider semi-celebrities, had a good time, made some really good friends (several of whom I met in Tokyo and who I continue to maintain contact with regardless of the distance involved), learned a few things too.

I then learned about Kung Fu Online. Went there, posted occasionally, got tired of constant, endless, harrassing threads designed to instigate "X is better than Z" flame wars between zit-faced teens hiding behind their PCs... I still go over there once in a blue moon, for entertainment moreso than information.

Then I learned about CyberKwoon. Cool site, cool site moderator, good content, boring forums. Probably because the membership is WAY lower than other sites. Had two articles published there, and I am forever in Fab's debt.

Then a buddy of mine (nbcdecon) told me about MT. The first time I came here, I was impressed only by the quantity of MMA fanatics I saw. Didn't come back for months. When I did come back, I was impressed by the open attitude, the lack of flame wars and trolls, and the real sense of community and fellowship that I was looking for. There have been some tiffs, but for the most part life here has been swell...

I think Shaolin-Do, along with a number of other schools (Temple Kung Fu, Oom Yung Doe, and a few others spring to mind) are beneath contempt. I wish the Horror Stories forum here on MT was more active with reports of such low quality frauds so that some of the "younger" members could have the info ahead of time and avoid falling into such traps. But on the other hand, I think it speaks volumes that that particular forum is as inactive as it is... Folks here seem more concerned with positiive learning rather than the darker side of web forum posting...

SD sucks. Period. They are a fraudulent group with questionable business practices and a lineage that is about as fake as it can get (though there are schools and teacher who are much worse). I just don't think anybody had to get "personal" about it, making fun of poorly done photos of alleged instructors. Whether the photo of the hairy guy is their grandmaster or not, whether the guy is dead or not, makes little difference as to the appropriateness of comments aimed in their direction.

[white belt]

Not good. I looked at Shaolin Do's site and the menu of forms. It looks "familiar" to me as an Ex-CMQer. Same tangled web.

The flaw I see, if I may be so bold, is that someone funned on the original Master's hair/skin deformity? The hoodwinked followers that are in denial were given ammo., by that very action, to spank those involved with making the forum possible. Now, WHY give anybody that opportunity if you feel they are providing a disservice to the Martial Arts community? That somehow doesn't seem analogous to the smart strategy a Martial Artist should practice by leaving such a window of opportunity to something untrustworthy. Present facts and leave it at that. I know I can be rather aggravating with my left field humor and perspective, but I give facts about CMQ and don't feel it helps give a trustworthy view, to their potential dangers, by slamming a CMQ instructors physical shortcomings. It might lead an outsider, who uses this forum to size up schools, to disregard my comments altogether and then waste months, years, dollars. That's not what I want to happen! I crack on DKI no touch KO stuff and HKD psychic conversations because THOSE THINGS ARE TOO OBVIOUS when "outed". The CMQ, Shaolin Do, Yellow Bamboo guys are more subtle and the public needs intelligent facts or we are putting money into those "schools" doors. Slamming deformities slams the speakers credibility with strangers who may be goodhearted easy prey for these places.

CMQ? Cult. Spent over 3 years. When the forum went down a while back, I considered it was my fault. I did not put it past one of the CMQers to somehow crash the forum because of my revealing nature. Yes, I am serious. The word needs to be spread about such places. If I were to use an ethnic slur to describe the leader, how credible would I seem to a stranger?

white belt

p.s.
I appreciate being allowed to share and learn here.

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw, wasn't your fault. We can't say more than we have for legal reasons.

:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
Feedback on the standards is welcome. It's less clear to me that the present discussion is beneficial.

I'm glad you look at it that way. :asian:

[Michael Billings]

My sentiments exactly ... and why I don't go to other Forums, they just end up pissing me off.

-Michael
KenpoTexas.com (http://www.kenpo-texas.com)