Board-Breaking Competitions

[Lynne]

I get to break boards in the October competition. This month, I'm going to a board-breaking clinic so I can learn how to break boards.

How are you judged in a board-breaking competition? Is is according to the number of various punches/strikes you use to break a board? Is it demonstrating ability with all the punches, strikes and kicks you know? Is it how many boards you can break with one type of punch?

We haven't covered the topic in class and I'm very interested in what the procedure is and how we're judged.

Thanks for any feedback.

[searcher]

How is determined by the rules of the competition and what type of breaking they are doing(power, speed, or creative). The three mentioned are the most common.

Have you started conditioning for this competiton yet? Make sure you take it easy until you get conditioned. And go buy some Dit Da Jow, it will work wonders.

[aplonis]

If I were judging a board-breaking contest I'd look first and foremost for technique since, as everyone knows, MA is all about technique as opposed to power.

If one's technique is lacking, then more power is required. The more power I see someone all-too-obviously putting into a break the more I have to wonder how much lack-of-technique are they making up for?

Best thing to do is make it look easy. So do not look doubtful. Don't look as if you are working up the power beforehand. Don't take half a dozen practice aims. Walk up to it, assume either a natural pose or a classic stance, take one shot and just technique your way through it. That means be correct in motion, be accurate, and be fast. Be all of those in a single moment and it is sure to impress.

Nor does your kiai/giyup have to be all that tremendously loud or frightening...or worse sound fearful and pained. What that is for is a focusing of your energy. It only needs to be concentrated and purposeful. So make that too sound out your precision of technique as opposed to the death cry of some enraged animal.

On the other hand, you can stomp up to your helpless target, take eight or nine practice swings, gather all your mechanical force and just brute your way through it. You could do that. But you'll only come off looking like Muscles McGurk from the classic Bugs Bunny cartoon. It will look just like what it is, brute strength, and not like anything skillful at all.

But as I say, I've not judged any breaking competitions. These are just the thoughts which go through my own mind when I am watching them, or participating.

You might want to practice your ridge hand. Or better yet, the zero-distance speed break. I like the former very much. The latter I have yet to accomplish. I need at least a couple of inches to palm-heel a board. But I know a guy who can indeed contact-break the heaviest rebreakables from zero inches. That impresses just about everyone.

[Lynne]

Thank you searcher and aplonis. I will concentrate on technique and speed, and be as focused and composed as I can.

I'll leave enraged kihaps to the movies ;)

[cdunn]

Lynne,

I'll be attending the same tournament. In our competitions, we are told that the breaks are supposed to be judged on purely technique. Major factors are generally as follows:

1: Were all breaks successful, first try? If not, what mitigating circumstances are there? At my first tournament, over 75% of the break attempts failed, because of the greenness of the locally supplied wood. Breaking at all generally won the division - One younger cho dan girl left a fist shaped indent a quarter inch deep in a board without breaking it.

2: Were the techniques clean and solid? Were you confident in your ability to execute them?

3: How difficult is the technique expected to be for your rank? Reverse punch - step behind side kick - inside outside crescent kick can win a yellow - orange belt division, but it probably won't win at red belt. Is the wood suspended (Speed break - harder) or supported? (Power)

4: In lockstep with 1 and 3, how much lumber did you break? A reverse punch through four - five boards is going to beat the same punch through two, all other things equal. It's not supposed to, but it will. However, this is generally overcome by the difficulty and success of the technique. I've out scored competitors by breaking two boards cleanly on the first strike while they took two or three shots to fell their entire trees. I have also seen highly athletic techniques through a single board outscore simpler breaks through many boards, the most recent being a successful jumping round kick... at a suspended board 9 feet off the ground.

At this tournament, you will be allowed to break up to three stations - That is, three techniques. Go in knowing how to set up the holders for your break. Know where you want them, what height and angle you want the boards. Make sure the judges can see clearly. Your clinic should cover this.

Generally - Pick a set of techniques that you are confident in. Do them through as much wood as you think you can, and generally have fun. Don't get hurt, and don't worry about winning.

(Disclaimer: I haven't been to any of Master R.'s tournaments yet - this will be my first of his as well. But I have been to other ATA and related tournaments, and the judging pool is significantly the same.)

[Last Fearner]

How are you judged in a board-breaking competition?

Hi Lynne,

Well, I have competed in many board breaking tournaments over the past few decades, and have judged thousands. Each host organization, and tournament organizing committee will have some rule variations and set criterion.

Here are some that we have typically used.

1. First, you are graded on a successful break. Whether you are breaking one board at one station, multiple boards at one station, or breaking at two or more stations, you must break everything on the first try. In most cases, you will be allowed to repeat attempts with one point deduction from your score for each unsuccessful attempt (Judges might decide to waive the penalty if the fault was from the board holders moving, but as for the material - it is the responsibility of the breaker to bring wood that is not too green, and not tampered with to facilitate an easy break).

2. The correct execution of a technique will score higher. A sloppy technique that breaks two boards will not usually score higher than a clean, proper technique that breaks one board. If you break with a hand technique but your stance is not well grounded and reinforced, then you might lose points. If you kick and break successfully, but stumble and lose your balance, or even fall, then you will lose points.

3. The difficulty of the technique. Most hand techniques will score about the same, but in a Taekwondo Tournament, a basic kick will score higher than a basic hand strike. A spinning kick, or a jumping kick will score higher than a basic kick on the ground. A Jump spinning kick, or a flying kick will score higher than most others. Remember that a difficult kick that fails to break on the first attempt will most likely lose to a basic kick or punch that succeeds on the first try.

4. The number of boards broken at each station. This is where judges have to make a judgment call. If one competitor breaks two boards at one station without fail, and another competitor breaks one board at two different stations, the higher score will probably go to the two station break because there is a chance of missing twice. Even though breaking two boards at one station requires more power, the skill of transitioning from one board to the next (or one opponent to the next in real life) is considered more valuable if done correctly. Again, remember that attempting to break more boards might result in a miss, which would lower the score and might lose to a single break that succeeds.

5. Breaking multiple stations. As mentioned before, regardless of the number of boards at each station, breaking more than one station increases the risk of missing, and will earn a higher score if successful. However, it is a gamble as to what you are good at, and what the other competitors do. If you break one board at two different stations, but someone breaks three or four boards at one station, they might receive the higher score. If you break at multiple stations, you should be able to start and finish within 2 to 3 seconds. Taking time to re-align yourself between breaks, or aim again at the next board before breaking will lower your score. Each hit should come quick and successive, with no pauses or hesitation between breaks.

6. Simultaneous breaks. This is mostly for Black Belts, or very advanced breakers. If you can strike two different stations at the same time (a punch and a kick, or jump with two front kicks), this will earn a higher score. Some breakers will run and jump, then begin kicking and punching multiple stations. Even though they are not striking the different boards at the exact same time, they complete all breaks (4, 5, or 6) before landing on the ground.

7. Unsupported Speed Breaks. There are a multitude of ways to demonstrate this, and it increases the difficulty along with the risk of failure. A single board speed break done well will probably out-score a two board break at one station, but maybe not breaking 3 or 4 boards at one station. It will depend on how well each technique is performed.

8. Added difficulties. If it is allowed at your tournament, some breakers add special difficulties such as jumping over people on a flying kick, doing a back flip while breaking a board over-head, or doing the splits while breaking a hand strike. Some will even do a break blind-folded.

What you do in preparation before a break is usually restricted by a time limit, so be good at setting the boards up where you want them as quickly as possible. Some people like to break quick with no apparent preparation, meditation, or advance kihap. Others will build up the suspense to show that it is a difficult break which requires mental focus and concentration. An audience will often be impressed with a display of serious preparation as long as you don't go over-board. The judges know exactly how hard the break is, so you are showing them that you realize focus is important.

We can get good enough to just snap into action, and break with no prep, but this can also work against you. Judges are Black Belts, and most have broken boards many times. They know that quick breaks are good, but if you make the break look too easy, it might not be given the points that go along with what impresses an audience.

For example, I could set up ten stations of one board each, and casually whip down the line with kicks an punches to break all ten without missing. Then, my opponent breaks five boards in a stack with palm strike, only he builds up the suspense for about a minute and yells several times before he blasts through the boards. He will probably win. On another day, I break the stack of five boards, but I just walk up and pop through them with no prep (not an easy thing to do). My opponent breaks ten stations with one board at each station, but takes a few moments to build up his focus with some kihaps and showmanship. He will probably win again. It all depends on the judges, and what they like to see.

Good luck, and let us know what you learn from your breaking clinic.

[searcher]

cdunn brings up something that I had not even thought about, but can easily be addressed. The boards that you are using can be prepared for the competiton. In my years of breaking I have found a few ways to deal with green boards, but one will help more than others. Now understand that I am not saying to cheat, I despise cheating. If your boards are to flexible they can be made less so by baking them in your oven overnight. Set the temp at 250 and let them bake for 8 hours or so. This allows the moisture content to go down and the board hardens a bit. This hardening will make the board not flex.

Just thought I would add a tid-bit.

[Kacey]

cdunn brings up something that I had not even thought about, but can easily be addressed. The boards that you are using can be prepared for the competiton. In my years of breaking I have found a few ways to deal with green boards, but one will help more than others. Now understand that I am not saying to cheat, I despise cheating. If your boards are to flexible they can be made less so by baking them in your oven overnight. Set the temp at 250 and let them bake for 8 hours or so. This allows the moisture content to go down and the board hardens a bit. This hardening will make the board not flex.

Just thought I would add a tid-bit.

I see two problems with this: 1) IMO, it is cheating. 2) I've never been to a competition where the competitor supplies the boards; they've always been supplied by the tournament promoter at the tournaments I've attended... to avoid just such preparations as baking the boards to make them break more easily, which gives those who are willing to fix their materials an unfair advantage. From the 8 Examples of Poor Integrity, per The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, by Gen. Choi Hong Hi: "2) The student who misrepresents himself by 'fixing' breaking materials". Even were I to be providing my own boards for competition, my integrity would prevent me from such an action; I would rather lose honestly, than win by fixing the breaking materials.

Now, having said that, the boards are set up by whichever referees are running the breaking competition - but competitors are always welcome to select boards themselves from those provided by the promoter. Most students don't - but that doesn't mean they can't.

[Lynne]

Lynne,

I'll be attending the same tournament. In our competitions, we are told that the breaks are supposed to be judged on purely technique. Major factors are generally as follows:

1: Were all breaks successful, first try? If not, what mitigating circumstances are there? At my first tournament, over 75% of the break attempts failed, because of the greenness of the locally supplied wood. Breaking at all generally won the division - One younger cho dan girl left a fist shaped indent a quarter inch deep in a board without breaking it.

2: Were the techniques clean and solid? Were you confident in your ability to execute them?

3: How difficult is the technique expected to be for your rank? Reverse punch - step behind side kick - inside outside crescent kick can win a yellow - orange belt division, but it probably won't win at red belt. Is the wood suspended (Speed break - harder) or supported? (Power)

4: In lockstep with 1 and 3, how much lumber did you break? A reverse punch through four - five boards is going to beat the same punch through two, all other things equal. It's not supposed to, but it will. However, this is generally overcome by the difficulty and success of the technique. I've out scored competitors by breaking two boards cleanly on the first strike while they took two or three shots to fell their entire trees. I have also seen highly athletic techniques through a single board outscore simpler breaks through many boards, the most recent being a successful jumping round kick... at a suspended board 9 feet off the ground.

At this tournament, you will be allowed to break up to three stations - That is, three techniques. Go in knowing how to set up the holders for your break. Know where you want them, what height and angle you want the boards. Make sure the judges can see clearly. Your clinic should cover this.

Generally - Pick a set of techniques that you are confident in. Do them through as much wood as you think you can, and generally have fun. Don't get hurt, and don't worry about winning.

(Disclaimer: I haven't been to any of Master R.'s tournaments yet - this will be my first of his as well. But I have been to other ATA and related tournaments, and the judging pool is significantly the same.)
Hey Christopher,

Hope I'll get to meet you! I suppose you're going to compete in the sword competition, too? Good luck in all areas of competition and hope you have fun.

I heard that around 500 competitors will show, coming from Europe and all over the US. Wow.

I must say I'm relaxed about the competition for the most part. Winning is the farthest thing from my mind so I think I've got the right attitude. I just want to do my best and honor my school.

Thank you for the tips about board-breaking. I had no idea what to expect.

See you in October, hopefully.

[Lynne]

Hi Lynne,

Well, I have competed in many board breaking tournaments over the past few decades, and have judged thousands. Each host organization, and tournament organizing committee will have some rule variations and set criterion.

Here are some that we have typically used.

1. First, you are graded on a successful break. Whether you are breaking one board at one station, multiple boards at one station, or breaking at two or more stations, you must break everything on the first try. In most cases, you will be allowed to repeat attempts with one point deduction from your score for each unsuccessful attempt (Judges might decide to waive the penalty if the fault was from the board holders moving, but as for the material - it is the responsibility of the breaker to bring wood that is not too green, and not tampered with to facilitate an easy break).

2. The correct execution of a technique will score higher. A sloppy technique that breaks two boards will not usually score higher than a clean, proper technique that breaks one board. If you break with a hand technique but your stance is not well grounded and reinforced, then you might lose points. If you kick and break successfully, but stumble and lose your balance, or even fall, then you will lose points.

3. The difficulty of the technique. Most hand techniques will score about the same, but in a Taekwondo Tournament, a basic kick will score higher than a basic hand strike. A spinning kick, or a jumping kick will score higher than a basic kick on the ground. A Jump spinning kick, or a flying kick will score higher than most others. Remember that a difficult kick that fails to break on the first attempt will most likely lose to a basic kick or punch that succeeds on the first try.

4. The number of boards broken at each station. This is where judges have to make a judgment call. If one competitor breaks two boards at one station without fail, and another competitor breaks one board at two different stations, the higher score will probably go to the two station break because there is a chance of missing twice. Even though breaking two boards at one station requires more power, the skill of transitioning from one board to the next (or one opponent to the next in real life) is considered more valuable if done correctly. Again, remember that attempting to break more boards might result in a miss, which would lower the score and might lose to a single break that succeeds.

5. Breaking multiple stations. As mentioned before, regardless of the number of boards at each station, breaking more than one station increases the risk of missing, and will earn a higher score if successful. However, it is a gamble as to what you are good at, and what the other competitors do. If you break one board at two different stations, but someone breaks three or four boards at one station, they might receive the higher score. If you break at multiple stations, you should be able to start and finish within 2 to 3 seconds. Taking time to re-align yourself between breaks, or aim again at the next board before breaking will lower your score. Each hit should come quick and successive, with no pauses or hesitation between breaks.

6. Simultaneous breaks. This is mostly for Black Belts, or very advanced breakers. If you can strike two different stations at the same time (a punch and a kick, or jump with two front kicks), this will earn a higher score. Some breakers will run and jump, then begin kicking and punching multiple stations. Even though they are not striking the different boards at the exact same time, they complete all breaks (4, 5, or 6) before landing on the ground.

7. Unsupported Speed Breaks. There are a multitude of ways to demonstrate this, and it increases the difficulty along with the risk of failure. A single board speed break done well will probably out-score a two board break at one station, but maybe not breaking 3 or 4 boards at one station. It will depend on how well each technique is performed.

8. Added difficulties. If it is allowed at your tournament, some breakers add special difficulties such as jumping over people on a flying kick, doing a back flip while breaking a board over-head, or doing the splits while breaking a hand strike. Some will even do a break blind-folded.

What you do in preparation before a break is usually restricted by a time limit, so be good at setting the boards up where you want them as quickly as possible. Some people like to break quick with no apparent preparation, meditation, or advance kihap. Others will build up the suspense to show that it is a difficult break which requires mental focus and concentration. An audience will often be impressed with a display of serious preparation as long as you don't go over-board. The judges know exactly how hard the break is, so you are showing them that you realize focus is important.

We can get good enough to just snap into action, and break with no prep, but this can also work against you. Judges are Black Belts, and most have broken boards many times. They know that quick breaks are good, but if you make the break look too easy, it might not be given the points that go along with what impresses an audience.

For example, I could set up ten stations of one board each, and casually whip down the line with kicks an punches to break all ten without missing. Then, my opponent breaks five boards in a stack with palm strike, only he builds up the suspense for about a minute and yells several times before he blasts through the boards. He will probably win. On another day, I break the stack of five boards, but I just walk up and pop through them with no prep (not an easy thing to do). My opponent breaks ten stations with one board at each station, but takes a few moments to build up his focus with some kihaps and showmanship. He will probably win again. It all depends on the judges, and what they like to see.

Good luck, and let us know what you learn from your breaking clinic.
Hey Last Fearner (laughing at your screen name),

Thank you for taking the time to give tips and information. Actually, your tips will help me when I attend the board-breaking clinic, too. My mind will be more focused I believe.

I'll post a thread about the clinic; it's on September 24.

[Last Fearner]

I see two problems with this: 1) IMO, it is cheating. 2) I've never been to a competition where the competitor supplies the boards; they've always been supplied by the tournament promoter at the tournaments I've attended...

"Cheating" is a matter left to the rules of any competition, and I have yet to see a written rule about "drying" or even "baking" boards. There are many ways that a person can "fix" their breaking materials, but I have never heard of anyone calling the practice of baking boards "cheating." I have been buying, cutting, drying, and breaking boards at demos, tournaments and testings for decades.

The fact of the matter is that pine boards of specific dimensions are used to equate the comparison of breaking bones. Green wood, which is filled with sap, does not compare accurately. Boards are cut from live trees and sold at Lumber yards and home improvement centers. They are typically intended for building furniture, and home remodeling projects. This wood is naturally moist and filled with sap. Such a fresh board is considered "green" wood and is very, very difficult to break.

Most every instructor that I know of, who have been doing this for years, will always buy wood weeks in advance of a demonstration or tournament to give the wood time to dry out. Many instructors will leave the wood out in the sun during the day, or cut the planks and store the wood in a warm, dry place in the dojang (near a furnace or in the sauna when no one is using it). Placing wood in an oven can shorten the drying time, but you have to be careful that you don't over bake the wood till it hardens.

This natural drying process is the proper and standard way of preparing wood for breaking. It is not a method of cheating since a light drying period does not weaken the board, but has always been considered a standard practice that everyone did, thus everyone's wood maintained the same amount of resistance.

Cheating would be a way of making the wood snap under the slightest pressure. #1 pine boards are of good condition, and have very few knots or cracks, but costs a little more. Most people use #2 pine and look for the best quality. Some people seek out the cracked wood, hoping no one will notice the imperfection. Some will cheat by "scoring" a board (making a small, razor cut on the back of the board along the line where it should break).

It is up the judges in each ring to inspect the boards, look for shaving of the surface, scoring, cracks and imperfections, and apply a fair amount of pressure to the middle of the board to ensure the board does not snap with ease. As a judge, I've had boards crack and break when I pushed with the palm of my hand. The competitor always looks surprised as though they had no idea the board was weak.

I have seen tournaments who provide the boards (or sell them at the start of the day), with exact requirements for sizes for each age and rank level, however this gets to be a bit costly, and time consuming for cutting the boards, and ensuring you have enough for everyone. I have also been to many tournaments (and hosted quite a few) which required the competitor to bring their own materials (some times brick breaking for Black Belts). Even boards provided can have weak or cracked boards that get through (unless you closely inspect every single board). Some tournament officials get too busy, and wait till the last minute, and buy green wood which just makes the breaking competition very unpleasant.

Then again, you still have to rely on the integrity of the students not to score or prep the tournament provided boards prior to the breaking competition, or even switch them with boards they secretly brought. It is very difficult to provide proper materials and ensure a fair contest without inspection in the ring. It is still up to the judges in the ring to make sure the boards are not fixed.

The only way that I see drying or baking wood as possible cheating or fixing of the materials is if the wood is dried to a point of becoming brittle, and will snap under fingertip pressure. Drying is supposed to remove "excess" moisture and sap from the wood that protects the tree when it is alive. I would be interested to hear how many instructor out there consistently use drying of their boards before breaking.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

[Dave Leverich]

We used to just stack them with spacers and let them air for a few days before the event (usually a break-a-thon for Jerry's kids or such). It's not a scientific approach but it would help somewhat.

As far as breaking competition though, I think my best was a 360 side kick through 4 in 87, I wish my org still did breaking as part of the regular competition.

My next is 10 bricks though, 16x2x8 (the large patio ones), it's to tie up with my friend. After that, we'll raise the bar one at a time :)

[Kacey]

"Cheating" is a matter left to the rules of any competition, and I have yet to see a written rule about "drying" or even "baking" boards. There are many ways that a person can "fix" their breaking materials, but I have never heard of anyone calling the practice of baking boards "cheating." I have been buying, cutting, drying, and breaking boards at demos, tournaments and testings for decades.

As I said, it is my opinion that baking the boards in an oven is cheating. That is the way I was trained, and I hold to it. Your training - and therefore your opinion - is different, and if that works for you, great! But that doesn't mean that my opinion - based on my experience and training - is wrong, just that it is different than your own. Nor does it mean, as you seem to think, than I am impugning your opinion and methods - just that our backgrounds, and our opinions based on those backgrounds, are different.

I see a difference between the tournament promoter buying the boards and treating them all the same way - that puts all of the competitors on an even footing - and having competitors bring their own wood and having the option to prepare the boards in a variety of ways. As I said, I have never been to a tournament where competitors provided their own breaking materials - the ones I have attended have always had the boards provided by the promoter, who then took any remaining boards for his/her own personal use or for his/her own class, or, on occasion, sold them to others, if there were too many remaining for easy storage.

[Last Fearner]

As I said, it is my opinion that baking the boards in an oven is cheating. That is the way I was trained, and I hold to it. Your training - and therefore your opinion - is different...

Kacey, I understand your point, your opinion, and your perspective. As I said, I have been involved in many tournaments that do provide boards, but if the student bringing their own materials is suspect of not playing fair (by "fixing" the boards), then it would be difficult to prevent dishonesty after purchasing boards at the tournament.

Specifically about baking or drying boards, the term "cheating" is a bit strong - - opinion or not. It implies that those who dry or bake boards to remove excess moisture are doing something unethical or unfair in competition. Now, if the rules of the tournament state that "NO BOARDS ARE TO BE DRIED OR BAKED" and one person baked their boards to get an unfair advantage, then that would be "cheating" according to those tournament rules. However, if it is a standard practice among instructors to provide their students with boards that have been dried or baked, and everyone has the same type of board, then it is not a matter of opinion to call that "cheating" but an incorrect and unjust accusation.

Furthermore, I would question as to how one would determine that tournament provided boards create an exact balance of resistance for breaking throughout every board cut from every plank. Since every tree provides different quality of wood, and shopping at a Lumber Yard does not guarantee that all of the planks are cut from the same tree (not likely) nor have been stored at the Lumber Yard for the same period of time. Some will contain more moisture than others that have already dried for a unknown period of time. How are you going to test the moisture and sap content of each board to ensure they all break under the same pressure psi?

Also, boards cut from center of a tree, as opposed to an outside cut are going to have a different grain alignment. Boards with knots or thicker portions of grain near where branches were growing cause a tougher break. Is it cheating to select the boards with optimum grain patterns, and fewer knots? I wouldn't call any of this "cheating" unless it is specifically forbidden by the tournament rules, and everyone is held to the same standard. It is a matter of "opinion" as to whether or not breaking dried boards is an accurate comparison to bones and what power we expect from students at various age and rank levels, but "cheating" is a matter of fact only determined by competition rules, not personal opinion.

Most of the boards I break, are not dried beyond natural time from mill to Dojang, but I do not expect children or beginner students to hit with the power of an Adult Black Belt nor risk injury because of excessively green wood.

[Kacey]

As I said, it is my opinion; your opinion is your own, and obviously different from mine. As I also said, I have never been to a tournament where the boards were not provided by the tournament promoter. Are they all going to be the same? Of course not. However, I would expect the variations to be less in a group of boards purchased from the same supplier, at the same time, under the same conditions, than I would if the boards were brought in piecemeal by individual competitors.

As far as grain, section of the tree, and so on, I expect there to be variation in that; that's where skill comes in, in addition to power - knowing how to choose boards that will be most appropriate for the break to be performed. The boards are provided by the promoter, and set up by the referees running the breaking - but all competitors are welcome to choose their own boards from the wood provided by the promoter, with the caveat that boards that were attempted, but not broken, are no longer available, as the stress of previous attempts may have caused unseen weaknesses in the wood, an unfair advantage for other competitors.

As an instructor, when I buy wood for my class, the amount of sap - the greenness - of the boards is a consideration. If the only boards I can find are green, then yes, I will leave them somewhere dry so that some of the excess moisture has time to evaporate out - but I do see a difference between leaving boards to dry naturally and deliberately baking them to remove moisture.

You can call it cheating or proper preparation, as you prefer - but for myself, and my students, I will not bake wood, in an oven, or using any other artificial heat source. Drying the boards in excess of what would occur naturally removes the resilience of the wood, and yes, it makes the boards easier to break... but if I want my wood to be easier to break, then I will use boards cut into smaller pieces - 8 or 10 inches wide, or even 6, instead of 12 - and, in fact, that's what I do for younger students or those who are extremely uncertain about their abilities before their first break.

It would be far to easy to bake wood past the point it would reach naturally, make the wood far more brittle than it would otherwise become, and thus easier to break - but what happens if a student who is accustomed to dried-out wood gets into a situation in which s/he is provided with naturally-dried wood, much more resilient and harder to break than what s/he is accustomed to, and overestimates his/her abilities - and injures him/herself? I'll take my chances with naturally cured wood; if it dries more than I expect, lucky me - but when it doesn't, I'll know what to expect.

It also depends on why you break. If you break so that you can look impressive to others, or so that you can build confidence in yourself or others - then dry your wood. If you break so that you can know what it takes to go through a resisting target (like wood, or cement... or people - and I'm certainly not going to practice breaking on people who aren't trying to kill me) then why would you want to make it too easy? What would be the point? That's also why I don't use spacers.

Now, I suspect that you won't agree with me - and again, I say that my opinion is based on my training and my experiences. Your opinion - like your training and experience - is different than mine. That does not make either of us right or wrong - it makes us different. I have given you an explanation of why I choose to do what I do; you have given me an explanation of why you do what you do. At this point, neither of us is likely to change the opinion of the other - and continuing to restate why we disagree with each other serves no purpose. I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but I am not interested in any attempts to convince me of what you see as the error of my ways, as for myself, I see no error.

[shesulsa]

I thought baking boards is just generally understood as a less-than-above-board thing. I would have to think it would be in the rules.

I've never attended a board breaking competition - has anyone ever read the fine print in the enrollment packet? or the rules?

[Dave Leverich]

Baking them would be considered such if it was 'bring your own boards' but not if they're all done that way. It's simply a way to make sure they're consistent difficulty (or more consistent that is, boards are never the same ;p).
I generally look for non-green boards to buy for break-a-thons etc, but I would have no qualms with letting them air (or speeding it up via another method). A very green board can be 2-3-4 or more boards in difficulty depending on grain and pitch content. Something, which in a demonstration, no one else will see so it's simply adding difficulty for no reason.

Break 4 if you want it that hard.

That's just me though :)

[Last Fearner]

Now, I suspect that you won't agree with me...

Well, you would be wrong there. I agree with almost everything you just said. Naturally drying green wood is a practice that I believe almost every Martial Artist uses. I don't typically advocate baking the wood artificially, but I have been pressed for time, and bought wood too close to an event to let it dry naturally. Baking wood too much to the point of making it brittle and simple to break would be improper, but these are the kinds of things I catch when inspecting wood in the ring. If it is too brittle, has a hairline crack, or has been scored, then it will break from the pressure of my hand. If any board brought into the ring can withstand a fair amount of pressure and tapping without snapping, then it is sufficient to be a fair break, regardless of how it was dried.

The only disagreement I had with anything you said was calling this practice "cheating."

Definition:
Cheat (v intr) 1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud. 2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. (American Heritage Dictionary, 2000).

I don't disagree with any of your "opinions" about drying wood, or the affects that it can have on breaking. You seem to be separating us as 'I bake, and you don't' but that is not an accurate assessment. On the two or three occasions many years ago that I dried wood in an oven, it was overnight in a gas oven with just the pilot light on. It sped up the drying process a bit, but did not make the boards brittle (in fact, I think it made them a bit harder to break, but I'm not sure).

Anyhow, the only disagreement I have is that no one is violating rules of a competition by doing this (unless a tournament posts a rule against it), and most will openly admit that they are drying their wood before breaking, therefore there is no "dishonesty," no "fraud" and thus no "cheating." I respect your opinion about the practice, and I agree with most of it, and since you admit to drying your wood "naturally" if it is green, then we tend to do the exact same thing. I just won't call something cheating, or someone a dishonest cheater (which in essence is what is being said here), unless they have deliberately violated a rule of a contest, or fraudulently taken an unfair advantage that others are not allowed to take.

My students practice board breaking on a weekly basis with very difficult re-breakable boards. The boards they break at testings are every bit as solid and hard to break as anyone else's - guaranteed! :)

[Carol]

Do contests generally have restrictions against over-dried wood, sir?

I can understand wood having hairline cracks is indicative of it being dried. However, is that necessarily indicative of the board being baked per se? It seems that unfinished wood could conceivably get as dry as that simply by sitting in dry air for too long before competition.

[shesulsa]

Baking boards will have a similar effect to drying or curing green wood, though it will do so much more thoroughly. Breaking a baked board would be like breaking a board cured for at least a year if not longer ... but that depends upon how long it was baked for.

I *do* believe it is *generally* looked upon as "cheating."

[Last Fearner]

I've never attended a board breaking competition - has anyone ever read the fine print in the enrollment packet? or the rules?

I have read many tournament rules, and written quite a few. The only stipulation that I have ever seen that affects breaking materials is when the tournament host requires the boards to be purchased at the tournament site. Hopefully, the tournament organizers have the common sense to buy the wood well in advance, cut it to length, and let the sap dry out naturally!

Like Kacey, I have been involved with tournaments that do provide the boards to attempt to prevent fixing of breaking materials, but it does not always succeed. As I said, a person who is dishonest is going to attempt to cheat one way or another (even switching tournament boards with boards brought at the last minute, or scoring them just before breaking). Inspection is the only way to ensure a fair break.


Do contests generally have restrictions against over-dried wood, sir?

Basically, if a tournament permits boards to be brought, then the only rules are that they must not be "tampered with" in order to give an unfair advantage, and this is something that is left to the inspection by the judges in the ring. Since drying the wood naturally is a standard practice (it dries some in shipment from the mill to the Lumber Yard, and while waiting at the Lumber Yard to be bought) there are no rules against drying wood. No one knows how long a plank has been drying since the time it was cut from the tree, and Lumber Yards often have a mixture of new shipments with wood that has been there a while.

Rules simply can not arbitrate drying time or methods, but judges can check to see if the wood is too easy to break. If the tournament is providing the boards, then there is no need for a rule because everyone is using boards of similar drying time (hopefully), but you still have to check the boards in the ring for natural imperfections, and impromptu fixing.


I can understand wood having hairline cracks is indicative of it being dried. However, is that necessarily indicative of the board being baked per se? It seems that unfinished wood could conceivably get as dry as that simply by sitting in dry air for too long before competition.

You are right, Carol. A plank of wood (like pine) can have splits and hairline cracks just because of the way the tree grew, and the plank was taken from a weak spot. Also, natural drying of wood can cause hairline cracks as the wood dries out, expands and contracts from heat and cold of day and night or the seasons. Between Jr. High and High School, I spent six years in woodworking and cabinet making classes (made a nice grandmother clock). We always have to lookout for these natural splits in the wood.

Also, I have changed boards out on children who selected wood with a huge knot in the middle. They would likely break their hand or injure their foot if they attempted to break such a board, but they or their parents didn't know this, and their instructor apparently didn't check it. I've also seen knots, and sections of wood go flying and hit board-holders or someone clear across the room.


I *do* believe it is *generally* looked upon as "cheating."

"Cheating" requires first that a rule to be written and enforced upon all of the contestants at a given event, and then to have one or more individuals violate that rule in order to gain an unfair advantage. A tournament in which everyone is allowed to bring their own boards, and allows any method of drying, then drying or baking can not be rightfully called "cheating." Absent of a rule, you can not have a violation of that rule. The practice of drying wood, in and of itself, is not "cheating." Only using dried wood, or baked wood at a tournament that forbids it would be cheating against those specific rules!

[shesulsa]

"Cheating" requires first that a rule to be written and enforced upon all of the contestants at a given event, and then to have one or more individuals violate that rule in order to gain an unfair advantage. A tournament in which everyone is allowed to bring their own boards, and allows any method of drying, then drying or baking can not be rightfully called "cheating." Absent of a rule, you can not have a violation of that rule. The practice of drying wood, in and of itself, is not "cheating." Only using dried wood, or baked wood at a tournament that forbids it would be cheating against those specific rules!
You really don't need to emphasize your words using bolding and underlining any more than you already have, sir. I do understand the concept of written rules and what the literal definition is of cheating. So I will refer you again to what I said:

I *do* believe it is *generally* looked upon as "cheating." I did not say that what you are doing is cheating. I did not say that I thought it was cheating. I did not say that there is a rule somewhere that says it is cheating - I said I believe that the general concensus is that it is considered to be cheating.

I also usually become uncomfortable when people are so animated with the semantics and specifics of rules and ... work-arounds. Because I would think one would have to admit that if one does not "have the time" to naturally dry wood appropriately that baking the boards, even if for a very short time, could be considered a work-around or a substitute.

It's a bit different than protecting the soft developing bones of children from damage by giving them an easier board to break, though that could also be done dimensionally.

And I don't think anyone is arguing the knots issue (still have a scar from the knot in a board I once held, thanks to another user here on MT).

I think the worry is that this work-around of baking boards might give one an unfair advantage since baking the boards lends a different, more intensely drying effect to the wood than does natural aging, hence the idea that many people consider this "cheating."

[cdunn]

Yeesh. One casual comment. :D

Sorry I didn't get a chance to read and respond over the weeked, but, as for the particular tourney on question, the rules are oddly mum about the provision of boards. It's customary in the related tournaments I've been to, though, for the host school to be selling boards at the site of tournament, you are required to use those boards. I expect this one will be the same.

[Kacey]

I agree with shesulsa on this one. From my training, it is considered cheating to dry wood with a heat source. This is not written down anywhere - it is something that instructors teach their students. Since boards are provided by the instructor for the class, and by the promoter for events - and we all have the same Grand Master who defines "fixing" as preparing the boards in any way that is not going to happen between the sawmill, the lumber yard, and in normal storage (which is inside, away from significant variations in temperature) - then yes, for myself, I would consider baking the boards to be as much "fixing" the materials as scoring the wood, shaving the board, or any of the other methods of "fixing" materials that anyone can think of - and I consider "fixing" and "cheating" to be synonymous in this context. No, it is not a written rule for tournaments - it is something we were all taught as students and adhere to as instructors, an accepted definition within our association.

As far as what students do with boards at the event - we must set our events up differently than yours, because the boards are not sold to the students; they are stacked up against the wall where breaking will take place, and the people running the breaking take boards off the nearest stack (checking for flaws, cracks, excessive knots, etc.), put them in the holder or on the cinder blocks (depending on the break) and competitors break them. Competitors have the option of choosing other boards from the ones provided, of rearranging the materials, etc. - but that always occurs in the presence of the referees, so opportunities to modify materials are generally not available. Certainly, if someone were so inclined, s/he could take boards from the stack prior to their event and modify them - but since the choice of boards is random (from the nearest stack, usually), and the number of boards to be broken is determined as the competitors line up, it would be extremely difficult to for someone to modify boards ahead of time and ensure that s/he got the same boards when it was his/her turn.

[Last Fearner]

You really don't need to emphasize your words using bolding and underlining any more than you already have, sir.

Shesula, please do not misinterpret, or take offense to my practice of bolding or underlining words in my replies. It is not intended to be insulting or to imply a harsh response. I realize that many people do not have time to read long replies, and often skim through the posts. I do this to help people see the particular words and phrases that I consider important to making my point. Sorry if it appeared to have a different meaning.


I said I believe that the general concensus is that it is considered to be cheating.

The reason I challenged this allegation in the first place is that I believe the term "cheating" has a very harsh and negative connotation, and implies, by definition, that a person who does this practice from time to time is being "dishonest." If you say there is a "general consensus" which supports this notion that baking wood, even to the slightest degree of removing excessive moisture, is cheating, then who is participating in this pole. "General consensus" seems to attempt to convince others that the "majority" of persons in this field would agree that any baking is "cheating," but I question if such a widespread "consensus" has been taken.

I was taught the same ethics and integrity about not "fixing" materials for demonstrations, let alone competition, and I teach the same to my students. I don't advocate baking, but I am not going to call those who do "cheaters" or "dishonest" when they have not "cheated" anyone at anything.

To establish when it becomes cheating:

1. If a person buys a plank of #2 pine 8' x 12" x 3/4", takes it home and never cuts it into smaller boards, never bakes it, and never breaks any of the wood - - is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

2. If they cut the plank into average size boards, bake them, but never break the boards, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

3. If they cut the boards, bake them, and break them in their back yard for practice, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

4. If they cut the boards, bake them, and take them to a tournament, where all contestants are allowed to supply their own wood, and all contestants are allowed to bake their wood or dry it naturally, and they break those boards in a competition where the rules permit it for everyone, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

5. If the tournament rules state that no wood is to be baked for drying purposes, and a contestant uses wood that is baked, is that "cheating?"

Answer:_______

How much does natural drying change the difficulty in breaking a pine board? Is it significantly different for drying naturally for one day as opposed to one week, or one week as opposed to one month, or one month as opposed to one year? Have tests been done to measure how much easier it gets over time by drying naturally? Do we set limits on how much time is allowed between the purchase of wood to the date of the tournament? Do we require verification of the room temperature where the boards are stored and if there is electric heat as opposed to a gas furnace, and how far are the board stored from any room's heater vent?

Perhaps someone who advocates "buy and break the same day," sap and all, would say that even one day of natural drying time is "cheating." Cheating who? What are boards really supposed to do, but provide a target with some resistance to show power? How much resistance is in each pine board? How much is that changed by natural drying? How much by baking? Is the allegation that baking can be abused and thus is "fixing" the materials? If you bake for one hour, but another person dries naturally for one week or one month, whose boards will be easier to break? Have tests been done? Couldn't a person who dries their boards naturally abuse the system and gain an unfair advantage?

I think this is a valid discussion with valid issues that should be talked about among Martial Artists. Rather than just blanketly labeling all drying as cheating, or all baking as cheating, or all cutting of boards into narrower pieces as cheating, we should analyze the results of doing so, and see if it really has a great affect. Plus, what difference does it make if it is fairly, and evenly done by everyone (some natural drying, long term drying, quick baking, over-baking, over-drying naturally)?

Until someone provides statistics that shows every board provided by a tournament has the exact same moisture and sap content, has dried naturally the exact same amount of time from tree to Lumber Yard to tournament day, and will break under the same exact pressure (or within a certain allowable range), then I think we need to do more research and tests. Perhaps drying wood artificially, to a pre-approved exact temperature, then testing to see what the resistance of each board is depending on drying time, might be the only way to ensure a closer, more fair contest. The very practice that some are calling "cheating" might be the best way to level the playing field, make all boards break under the same (or very close) resistance, thus making contests more fair.

Opinions and input are welcome! :ultracool

[Kacey]

The very practice that some are calling "cheating" might be the best way to level the playing field, make all boards break under the same (or very close) resistance, thus making contests more fair.

If your purpose is to level the playing field, then perhaps this would be true - but if that were the purpose, why break wood? Why not just buy rebreakable boards, and ensure that each board has been used the same number of times before being used in competition; that would be much more "fair" than trying to standardize boards, which are, by their very nature, not consistent. If your purpose is to challenge your students to surpass their preconceptions about what they can and cannot do, and to teach them to adapt to the circumstances life presents them, I see no purpose in finding ways to "standardize" breaks.

If my students attend a tournament - to break, to spar, to perform patterns, etc. - and can come back and tell me what they've learned, then I am happy. Whether they win or lose is of no import to me - just what they learn in the process. Learning to deal with defeat can be a valuable lesson. Learning to win well - with grace and courtesy - can also be a valuable lesson, and one that many people never learn unless the circumstances are against them... as when the boards are not "standardized", and students who expect to win lose, because they got a bad board. Learning to deal with variations is part of life.

After all, in a self-defense situation, which do you want to think - "Wait, I can't fight you, your bones look denser than what I'm used to, I can't break your rib/arm/leg because I've practiced on standardized boards" OR "Hmm... he's big... I'm going to have to hit him harder, just like those nasty boards I practiced on"? This is, of course, a dramatization - but it demonstrates my viewpoint. As an instructor, I am attempting to individualize my students' instruction, so that each is able to react individually to the circumstances that life presents them with - not create assembly line robots that can't deal with non-standardized situations.

Board breaking may not seem particularly important to you as a method of reaching individualization - but to me it is, and I would rather spend time teaching my students to deal with the variables of different boards than searching for ways to standardize the materials.

[Last Fearner]

As an instructor, I am attempting to individualize my students' instruction, so that each is able to react individually to the circumstances that life presents them with - not create assembly line robots that can't deal with non-standardized situations.

Board breaking may not seem particularly important to you as a method of reaching individualization - but to me it is, and I would rather spend time teaching my students to deal with the variables of different boards than searching for ways to standardize the materials.

Wow! Where did this come from out of left field. Do you forget that I'm the one who said I don't object to people bringing their own boards to tournaments, drying their own boards, or baking them. As long as the board is not "flimsy" and too easy, I have no objections to the variations in board difficulty - heck, I grew up breaking boards that way in tournaments, and promote it among my students. I responded to those who said drying or baking makes the boards easier than other people's boards, so they are the ones who advocated tournament provided boards for consistency. I merely said that if they want consistency, perhaps consistent drying time would be more accurate!

I teach my students with plenty of individualism to their training, but I also work towards a consistent base that everyone is capable of accomplishing (depending on age, rank, and other factors), then build from there. In time, any student of mine will have no problem breaking four or five boards, straight from the Lumber Yard, with no extra drying! Why not use re-breakable boards for competition, well I'm sure it would even things out a bit, and I've heard some people suggest that seriously (not me), but I still believe there is a realism to breaking wood and I don't care to see that go away.

I don't know if this conversation is not going the way it should, but I make a few comments to appease those who are looking for consistent, fair tournaments, and you seem to label me as a robot factory, producing students who can't deal with challenges, or difficult board breaking?????
Where does that come from???? If only you knew me, and my students!

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Senior Moderator-

[Lynne]

We will buying the boards at our tournament.

[Last Fearner]

We will buying the boards at our tournament.

Well, there you go! No fuss ~ No muss! :)

I hope all goes well for you! :ultracool

[searcher]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.

[Lynne]

Well, there you go! No fuss ~ No muss! :)

I hope all goes well for you! :ultracool
I just found out that we have to purchase the boards at the competition. I guess I'm glad of that. ;)

I hope they aren't green though. That wouldn't be any fun. It is quite humid up here. Maybe they'll dry out the boards a little :D

Thank you for the well wishes.

[Lynne]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.
Give me three years...ha ha ha ha

[Last Fearner]

I hope they aren't green though. That wouldn't be any fun. It is quite humid up here. Maybe they'll dry out the boards a little :D

Oh Noooo! We're going in circles!!! :lol:

[shesulsa]

Forget the boards and go with concrete pavers. That is the be all, end all of discussion on drying boards.
I've known people to bake these too!! *groan*

[Carol]

I've known people to bake these too!! *groan*

But baking bricks is patently against (nearly all) competition rules. Breaking boards doesn't seem to have the same prohibition...

[Lynne]

Today is the day! We have our board-breaking clinic today. I'll make a separate post regarding how it went, what we did.

I have questions about the drying of boards. Some of you feel it is cheating, others have always done it to remove excess water/dry out the sap.

Is there any scientific proof that drying #2 pineboards makes an iota of difference when breaking???? If so, how much??? Is there really an advantage to drying the boards?

I was going through a stack of precut boards the other night. Some were quite heavy with sap. Some were not.

The way I see it, fairness may not happen. What if you are one of the last people buying boards to break and the only ones left are heavy with sap??? Or there isn't a grain to speak of, but crazy whirls. Those boards are not going to break - most likely. Maybe the school won't bring such boards to sell?

What if boards are cut over a 6 week period? Some will be drier than others. Will it make any difference during breaking?

[Lynne]

One more question. Where should boards be stored? Mine are in the trunk of the car. I guess I should try to find a dry place. That's not happening in my house. I guess I could try some spacers of some kind.

[Tez3]

Good luck! though why anyone wants to punch pieces of wood is beyond me lol! It's why I like MMA I get to punch people and it's fair.... they get to punch me back!!
:boing2:

[Lynne]

[quote=Tez3;855962]Good luck! though why anyone wants to punch pieces of wood is beyond me lol! It's why I like MMA I get to punch people and it's fair.... they get to punch me back!!
:boing2:[/quote

I think board-breaking is very valuable though. It teaches one how to focus a lot of energy in one area.

The board can't hit me back but if I hit one wrong, I'm sure I'll be sorry.

During the last board-breaking clinic, a woman tried a chop break (I think it was a chop) and hit the board with the wrong part of her hand. Her hand bruised all the way through from the top of the hand through the palm. Her hand turned all sorts of pretty colors instantly.

I just hope I don't hit the board with my elbow funny bone when trying an elbow strike.

[shesulsa]

One more question. Where should boards be stored? Mine are in the trunk of the car. I guess I should try to find a dry place. That's not happening in my house. I guess I could try some spacers of some kind.
You have no dry-enough paces in your house? Um ... living room? Dining room? I put mine in the living room or dining room where it's reasonably dry (we have a wood burning stove, so I make sure I put them a safe distance from the stove, both for fire safety and to make sure they're ... er ... not baked). Say, about 15-20 feet away.

[Lynne]

You have no dry-enough paces in your house? Um ... living room? Dining room? I put mine in the living room or dining room where it's reasonably dry (we have a wood burning stove, so I make sure I put them a safe distance from the stove, both for fire safety and to make sure they're ... er ... not baked). Say, about 15-20 feet away.

We have places that aren't as wet as others. Mold is a problem here. No a/c in the summer. My bedroom might be the driest. We've had to run our heat a few times lately.

[Lynne]

I just had a thought. What's the difference between baking a board and placing it in the sun to dry out, or placing it in an 80 degree room to dry out. You could place your boards near a wood stove or a pellet stove for two weeks and get the same results as baking a board in the oven. It seems that the only thing the oven does it make the boards dry faster.

I'm not trying to start WWIII, but I think I'm bringing up valid points.

[shesulsa]

I just had a thought. What's the difference between baking a board and placing it in the sun to dry out, or placing it in an 80 degree room to dry out. You could place your boards near a wood stove or a pellet stove for two weeks and get the same results as baking a board in the oven. It seems that the only thing the oven does it make the boards dry faster.

I'm not trying to start WWIII, but I think I'm bringing up valid points.
Truthfully, I've never seen nor done the scientific proof - all I can say is that I've broken boards baked on top of the wood-burning stove and I've broken boards allowed to cure for 6 months in warm and relatively dry weather but inside. I've only ever put my boards in the sun when there was no dry wood to be found - test was less than 48 hours away and if I'd tried to break *those* boards, I would have broken my bones instead.

The boards from the stove broke *easily*, the boards cured for 6 months broke less easily and the sun-"dried" wet boards bruised my hand pretty badly but a few broke.

Perhaps a study is in order! :D

[Tez3]

[quote=Tez3;855962]Good luck! though why anyone wants to punch pieces of wood is beyond me lol! It's why I like MMA I get to punch people and it's fair.... they get to punch me back!!
:boing2:[/quote

I think board-breaking is very valuable though. It teaches one how to focus a lot of energy in one area.

The board can't hit me back but if I hit one wrong, I'm sure I'll be sorry.

During the last board-breaking clinic, a woman tried a chop break (I think it was a chop) and hit the board with the wrong part of her hand. Her hand bruised all the way through from the top of the hand through the palm. Her hand turned all sorts of pretty colors instantly.

I just hope I don't hit the board with my elbow funny bone when trying an elbow strike.

That's a big ouch! My instructor and I break roof tiles in demos but it's only for fun. He can break 200 of them in a couple of minutes.We put them on bricks in piles of ten. I don't know though if you have the same kind of roof tiles we do. Fun to do but a bugger to pick up afterwards lol!

[Kacey]

The more moisture a board has in it, the farther it will flex before breaking - thus, wetter boards will require more force and precision than drier boards. How much of a difference that makes in terms an objective standard like foot/pounds of pressure required to break a board is not a study I've seen in the MA world, but might be available from the construction community.

Likewise, boards with tighter, straighter grain will break more easily than wood with looser (farther apart), more crooked grain. The difficulty imposed by knots depends on where they are, what size they are, and whether they go with or against the grain of a board - all other things being equal (which they rarely are! :)) a long narrow knot that goes with the grain of the board will break more easily than a 2" round knot near the center, as the long narrow knot will create a weak spot in the board, while a round knot - especially toward the center - will create an un-grained and harder to break area, especially when compared to tight, straight grain.

[FieldDiscipline]

I havent read the whole thread, just the first page and Kacey's post above.

Baking boards is cheating. For the reasons Kacey has sited above.


The more moisture a board has in it, the farther it will flex before breaking - thus, wetter boards will require more force and precision than drier boards.

[Dave Leverich]

I think this thread has been beaten to death on both sides.