Probably one for the pressure point group but I wanted a more open/un-biased response also:
Have any of you in actual fighting (I'm not talking kata or sparring but full on fighting, be it contact competition or otherwise) ever experienced a successful attack/hit etc from a pressure point practitioner?
I don't mean necessarily just a nerve pinch/grip etc or a carotid artery/jugular vein lock common in grappling/submission fighting but actual pressure point hits that have resulted in black-outs etc.

I have never fought one of these so-called practitioners and although I try to train and fight with an open mind am not sure on their capabilities using pressure point attacks while in a full on fight against a skilled fighter. My sensei told me he fought a chinese practitioner when he was touring asia but he never experienced any pressure hits as he broke the guy's rib with a side kick that ended the fight. In my old dojo we also had this chinese woman visit that pressed our head sensie in I 3 separate areas in quick succession and he momentarily passed out but again, not sure if this could be pulled off against an aware or unwilling partner/opponent??

I would therefore be interested in any experience or comments on this.

Grandmaster George Dillman knocked someone out with a punch in a demo..At a seminar I had the chance to be his Uke for a technique, I swear my whole arm went numb from a light tap...I just realized that this post is no help..Sorry...

Probably one for the pressure point group but I wanted a more open/un-biased response also:
Have any of you in actual fighting (I'm not talking kata or sparring but full on fighting, be it contact competition or otherwise) ever experienced a successful attack/hit etc from a pressure point practitioner?
I don't mean necessarily just a nerve pinch/grip etc or a carotid artery/jugular vein lock common in grappling/submission fighting but actual pressure point hits that have resulted in black-outs etc.

I have never fought one of these so-called practitioners and although I try to train and fight with an open mind am not sure on their capabilities using pressure point attacks while in a full on fight against a skilled fighter. My sensei told me he fought a chinese practitioner when he was touring asia but he never experienced any pressure hits as he broke the guy's rib with a side kick that ended the fight. In my old dojo we also had this chinese woman visit that pressed our head sensie in I 3 separate areas in quick succession and he momentarily passed out but again, not sure if this could be pulled off against an aware or unwilling partner/opponent??

I would therefore be interested in any experience or comments on this.

nope I have not, but there are some pressure points that do work. major nurves and such that are good attacks.. the vagus nerve in the neck, solor plexes, and well "dim mak" means as far as I know 'Vital points' as in leathal points. I am sure you can figure out what they are at least most of them!

He thing about dim mak /pressure points / vital points etc. is that you go for them when they are available. Against another skilled fighter that is defending well, this will always be difficult. But as mentioned above, there are many vital points, and some of these are very easy to hit, i.e. neck, groin, but they are out of bounds in contest fights.

Another thing worth mentioning about dim mak is that it is made more difficult when people are wearing thick coats and the like, which means if you get into a fight on the street on a cold night, then you have to throw all that knowledge away and just go for the good old knock out punches etc.

It should be mentioned that a good "dim mak" practitioner does not rely only on dim mak, it just forms a part of their skill set, and it is never relied upon. But, if the point is open for attack, they know where to hit.

Probably one for the pressure point group but I wanted a more open/un-biased response also:
Have any of you in actual fighting (I'm not talking kata or sparring but full on fighting, be it contact competition or otherwise) ever experienced a successful attack/hit etc from a pressure point practitioner?
I don't mean necessarily just a nerve pinch/grip etc or a carotid artery/jugular vein lock common in grappling/submission fighting but actual pressure point hits that have resulted in black-outs etc.

I would therefore be interested in any experience or comments on this.

In EP Kenpo, in the beginning techniques there's alot of fixation on the radial nerve; I've been hit there a few times to where I couldn't close my hand for a few minutes. Another famous kenpo target is the brachial plexus which I've been hit hard to almost black out - I had to fight consciousness. I had a friend who was deep into Chin Na and he would tell me stories of his teacher slowing down peoples hearts and dropping them into unconsciousness by poking them with his finger. I have never seen this first hand, when me and my buddy would spare none of his such techniques would work, he would tell me my adrenaline was to high.

No the only time I have witness anything like it is at a seminar and it was not actual fighting. Great question though.

no i have not been hit by one however i have hit pressure points on people in real life> nothing that was intended to hurt forever but simple little shots that have hurt for a moment and got the point across. Have I done it often NO but once or twice I have been successful in intercepting a hand/arm that was coming my way and was able to stop it effectively enough so that the person on the other end thought about what happened. it is like anything else we do as a martial arts student, if you do the move enough it becomes a reflex and your chance of hitting the mark increases

Dont know if this helps but...

If you look for it and know what to look for, you see it all the time.

I like to watch UFC knockouts highlites, boxing highlites and the like.

Most common knock out points you see are: ST6 (One of the Dillman group favorites), TW 17, TW 23, GB 1, GB 20's, CV 23. and the list can go on. These are not so much "Lethal" but they are great for KO's and if add that to the idea of (what you could do once the guy is out cold). Hmmm. It's just part of the package.

GM Dillman's student, Master Mark Gerry, told me that at one time Dillman actually taught ALI (ST6). Makes you think. ???

Look at your PPT charts TCM, or Trigger points (Western medicine) and then notice exactly where the opponent was struck for the final shot causing the KO. Well, theres my nickle on the thread.

Again, dont know if this helps to contirbute to your search for answeres...

I respect you desire to find the answeres. Your not alone.

Dean

Dont know if this helps but...

If you look for it and know what to look for, you see it all the time.

I like to watch UFC knockouts highlites, boxing highlites and the like.

Most common knock out points you see are: ST6 (One of the Dillman group favorites), TW 17, TW 23, GB 1, GB 20's, CV 23. and the list can go on. These are not so much "Lethal" but they are great for KO's and if add that to the idea of (what you could do once the guy is out cold). Hmmm. It's just part of the package.

GM Dillman's student, Master Mark Gerry, told me that at one time Dillman actually taught ALI (ST6). Makes you think. ???

Look at your PPT charts TCM, or Trigger points (Western medicine) and then notice exactly where the opponent was struck for the final shot causing the KO. Well, theres my nickle on the thread.

Again, dont know if this helps to contirbute to your search for answeres...

I respect you desire to find the answeres. Your not alone.

Dean


well Ali would not have been looking at using a lot things becouse the gloves and hand wraps and rules of a sport bout make things dificult. but old line pugilism used KO points.. that is why the all had coliflower ears and their two front teeth missing... punching the point of the chin was not really a good choice with a bare hand .. it is now sport boxings bread and butter KO point. there are a lot of places that you can strike or grab that can couse a lot of pain from pressure on nurves, also locks that do similer things. they can work pretty well depending on the situation. it is a tool in your tool box.

He thing about dim mak /pressure points / vital points etc. is that you go for them when they are available. Against another skilled fighter that is defending well, this will always be difficult. But as mentioned above, there are many vital points, and some of these are very easy to hit, i.e. neck, groin, but they are out of bounds in contest fights.

Another thing worth mentioning about dim mak is that it is made more difficult when people are wearing thick coats and the like, which means if you get into a fight on the street on a cold night, then you have to throw all that knowledge away and just go for the good old knock out punches etc.

It should be mentioned that a good "dim mak" practitioner does not rely only on dim mak, it just forms a part of their skill set, and it is never relied upon. But, if the point is open for attack, they know where to hit.

I guess that depends on if you are looking for a pain point on say an arm or something where a heavy coat sleave will make it almost imposible to do.. or if you are in a situation where your life is at stake and any thought of fair play or just knock him out is no longer nessesarily aplicable. but I have to agree pressure points and things are part of the skill set and not an end all be all..

Dear All

Thanks for your comments/responses to this query, which have been helpful and of interest to me.

GM Dillman's student, Master Mark Gerry, told me that at one time Dillman actually taught ALI (ST6). Makes you think. ???

Look at your PPT charts TCM, or Trigger points (Western medicine) and then notice exactly where the opponent was struck for the final shot causing the KO. Well, theres my nickle on the thread.

I had heard this too, sadly I cant remember where, but if I remember correctly and you look at some of his fights you can see him hit two of the points on the same channel and put the guy to sleep.

Gallbladder rings a bell, but I know next to nothing about this stuff so I may be wrong.

Look at your PPT charts TCM, or Trigger points (Western medicine)...
Trigger points are something very different from accupuncture points.

(Myofascial) trigger points are chronic spasms in the middle of the length of muscles. They are an abnormal condition that cause a very nasty phenomenon called "referred pain", in which they create pain at a site away from their actual location in the body. Western MDs frequently misdiagnose them (I experienced this myself).

I suffered from them in the adductor and gluteus muscles for quite some time, until I found a well-informed chiropractor, who correctly diagnosed them and successfully treated me with ultrasound.

Here's a link to an inexpensive but very good book about trigger points if you're interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1572243759/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6762325-7850426?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188841788&sr=1-1

Trigger points are something very different from accupuncture points.

(Myofascial) trigger points are chronic spasms in the middle of the length of muscles. They are an abnormal condition that cause a very nasty phenomenon called "referred pain", in which they create pain at a site away from their actual location in the body. Western MDs frequently misdiagnose them (I experienced this myself).

I suffered from them in the adductor and gluteus muscles for quite some time, until I found a well-informed chiropractor, who correctly diagnosed them and successfully treated me with ultrasound.

Here's a link to an inexpensive but very good book about trigger points if you're interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1572243759/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6762325-7850426?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188841788&sr=1-1

Thank you. I am new to Trigger points being that I have just entered the Physical Therapy field (OJT). But I did see a some similarity to TCM PPt's (mainly general location in some cases at first glance).

When I think of PPt's I try to look at all related aspects as well. (ie PP't striking, Seizing Muscle/tendons, Nerve strikes, etc.) Trigger points just seemed to possibly fall into this general catagory for study and research in a Martial as well as healing aspect. I suppose each of these area could have their own thread.

I will look into your recomendation.

Dean
(always the student first) :ultracool
Enjoy your Labor day

I have seen many done at a reasonably paced attack but the attack was also predetermined and there was still instructor student respect so the attack wasn't full on. I doubt any pressure point practitioner would risk their reputation on allowing someone to throw anything, full speed with no regard to the instructor. I have heard stories from many high ranking pp practitioners but strangely enough no one could confirm their stories.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Hi Dean, you're welcome. Hope that info helped.

Since you mention physical therapy, I'll tell you this... about the only people around who successfully diagnose and treat myofascial trigger points are well-informed chiropractors like mine, and massage therapists. It's interesting that I've never heard of anybody being referred to a physical therapist for treatment of trigger points, since I can't think of any reason why a qualified PT would not be able to treat them with massage.

Regarding using PPTs in fighting, in our style of Hapkido, we use them quite a bit, but not in a "dim mak" sense. We typically attack them by digging into them with our fingertips. Most of the ones we use are nerve points, I think, although some are exactly where certain important PPTs are (like GB21, Stomach 9 and Colon 8 - 10). We also attack lots of them on the face.

Our approach to PPTs is pretty down-to-earth. We're not looking for knockouts, we're aiming to cause a kind of "shudder" in the attacker that will render him vulnerable for a fraction of a second. That fraction of a second is supposed to give us the window we need to execute a defensive technique.

When talking about pressure points everybody seems to give them a number/letter or both(e.g. like GB21, Stomach 9 and Colon 8 - 10). Is there any website which will show where each pressure point is and what the code is? It would really help me to keep up with some of the posts on these boards.

When talking about pressure points everybody seems to give them a number/letter or both(e.g. like GB21, Stomach 9 and Colon 8 - 10). Is there any website which will show where each pressure point is and what the code is? It would really help me to keep up with some of the posts on these boards.

Go to www.kyusho.com and you will find such info there. Their forum will be informative for you too

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Go to www.kyusho.com (http://www.kyusho.com) and you will find such info there. Their forum will be informative for you too

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Another favorite of mine is: www.yinyanghouse.com (http://www.yinyanghouse.com)

Cheers
Dean:wink1:

Another favorite of mine is: www.yinyanghouse.com (http://www.yinyanghouse.com)

Cheers
Dean:wink1:


please remember that some points will very from person to person and some will be in the same place with in a very very small variation. Leathal points are of course something that do not variate... but others may...

please remember that some points will very from person to person and some will be in the same place with in a very very small variation. Leathal points are of course something that do not variate... but others may...

I'm sure the people from the above mentioned sites will be able to answer all of the questions you have.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Another favorite of mine is: www.yinyanghouse.com (http://www.yinyanghouse.com)

Cheers
Dean:wink1:

Good diagrams here too..

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=HE4&meridian=Heart

I'm sure the people from the above mentioned sites will be able to answer all of the questions you have.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

actualy it was not a question, but a statement of fact. some of the pressure points do have variations of some distance from person to person. the leathal points are of course always in the same place. but there could be an inch or more variation on some people on some of the others.

actualy it was not a question, but a statement of fact. some of the pressure points do have variations of some distance from person to person. the leathal points are of course always in the same place. but there could be an inch or more variation on some people on some of the others.

The way I am taught, the points are located using not absolute measurements, but are relative to the body itself... So your 5th intercostal space might be an inch higher or lower than mine, but relative to my ribs it is the "same place".

The way I am taught, the points are located using not absolute measurements, but are relative to the body itself... So your 5th intercostal space might be an inch higher or lower than mine, but relative to my ribs it is the "same place".


yep it should be pretty much the same place. but nurve bundles vary much more then bones .... personaly I tend to use the ones that are duel in that there are bones and organs in the same place for meany things. But like chokeing for instance some people are more imune from some of the lesser things then others. just as some people are a lot harder to choke .. becouse the arterys in the neck are deeper or the musculiture is more developed.

actualy it was not a question, but a statement of fact. some of the pressure points do have variations of some distance from person to person. the leathal points are of course always in the same place. but there could be an inch or more variation on some people on some of the others.

I wasn't referring to your statement but the fact that you mentioned this as advice to zero when the people from the mentioned sites will be able to assist them with their questions involving pp and their locations/variations etc. I didn't know why you bought your point up.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I wasn't referring to your statement but the fact that you mentioned this as advice to zero when the people from the mentioned sites will be able to assist them with their questions involving pp and their locations/variations etc. I didn't know why you bought your point up.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I have heard people assert that they are always in the same place and work exaclty the same way ... So I was makeing the point that that is a guide and not an absolute.