Questions about Pyong Ahn Cho Dan/Preparation

[Lynne]

I started learning Pyong Ahn Cho Dan Tuesday night. Gee, at least I know half of the form, lol.

I'm actually doing well with it. I freeze when I get to the Hadon Sudo Makees at the end but am getting there.

I have some questions, please...

1) At the beginning, you look left, do a low block and then middle punch. Then you turn 180, do a low block, a downward hammer strike and then you take your right arm over you head and do a hammer strike with the right foot coming back perpendicular to the left foot. What are those two moves called in English? What is that perpendicular stance called? Anyone know the Korean names for those moves? It will be helpful if I know - I hate to articulate by calling the moves "that crazy arm thing."

2) Preparation for Hadon Sudo Makee. Since I'm just learning it, I haven't been taught a leg preparation. We simply (well, not so simple yet) prepare with the arms, step in a back stance, perform the move, prepare with the arms, step into a diagonal back stance, perform the move. I saw some of the higher belts doing a stepping Hadon Sudo Makee and it looked like they were preparing with the legs but it wasn't a twist like we do in defensive stepping (or it didn't look like it).

Thanks for your time!

[stoneheart]

Lynne, it really depends on which strain of TSD you are what stance you are are when you perform what is likely the hammerfist block or strike (me joomeok). The way I learned it, it can be either a block or strike, the motion is same, regardless of what you imagine your target to be. The stance you are speaking of is a cat stance (bom so gi) the way I learned Pyong An Chodan, where 90% of your weight is balanced on the back foot.

[Tez3]

Korean for the crazy arm moves (love it!) is I believe Kwon Do Kong Kyuk, thats what it is in my book though we don't bring our hand over our head we just do a straight hammer fist (Kap Kwon)


We've never done a presentation stance before the low knife hands at the end which are in what I know as front view cat stance. I'm afraid we mix Korean, Japanese and English terms up. It's a back stance but with the front heel raised as it's a stance used for knife hands strikes and blocks. You will use it in Pyung Ee Dan.

We teach knife hands from the beginning, Cho Dan is the fourth one we learn usually for 7th Kup grading.

[Chizikunbo]

Hi Lynn, the hammer fist strike...as stated in an earlier post largely depends on what tradition your school follows...almost all TSD books will call it something different, as will instructors, in any case I learned it as "aejun kwon do kong kyuk".

Concerning the # 2 question, the preparation with the arms is called a chamber...this particular instance is one unique to main line TSD'ers because they most always use the hands at the hip chamber for soo dos...But this hadan soo do is performed with hip twist (hu ri tuel) to develop power, so the preparation may be slight drawing back of the leg to torque the hip, for the explosive application of the hadan soo do mahk kee. It is performed left 90 degrees, then right 45 degrees, and then opposite on the right side (90 and 45 degrees).
Hope that helps,
--josh

[crushing]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in even though I'm TKD. This Pyung ahn cho dan hyung is also our third form after the kichos. I just wanted to second Josh's point about the hip twist and power. One of the things that your teacher may look at is how your belt's ends move when you do those last techniques, I know mine does.

Also, be aware that they know when you cheat those belt ends into flying about too! ;)

[Lynne]

Lynne, it really depends on which strain of TSD you are what stance you are are when you perform what is likely the hammerfist block or strike (me joomeok). The way I learned it, it can be either a block or strike, the motion is same, regardless of what you imagine your target to be. The stance you are speaking of is a cat stance (bom so gi) the way I learned Pyong An Chodan, where 90% of your weight is balanced on the back foot.

Hey stoneheart, how do you balance your weight on the back leg??? Both of our legs are straight. Is your back leg bent?

Thank you for the Korean names and descriptions.

I feel a little more like I know what I'm doing.

[Lynne]

Korean for the crazy arm moves (love it!) is I believe Kwon Do Kong Kyuk, thats what it is in my book though we don't bring our hand over our head we just do a straight hammer fist (Kap Kwon)


We've never done a presentation stance before the low knife hands at the end which are in what I know as front view cat stance. I'm afraid we mix Korean, Japanese and English terms up. It's a back stance but with the front heel raised as it's a stance used for knife hands strikes and blocks. You will use it in Pyung Ee Dan.

We teach knife hands from the beginning, Cho Dan is the fourth one we learn usually for 7th Kup grading.
Hiya Tez,
Thanks for the info. With the knife hands, we call that a Hulgul Jaseh, back stance. Feet are perpendicular to one another but about the same distance as a front stance, both legs bent, hip out, and front foot on the toe.

What do you call a back fist? I think one of my instructors called that a Kap Kwon but I'm not sure. It was the first time I heard it in Korean and it was mumbled.

[Lynne]

Hi Lynn, the hammer fist strike...as stated in an earlier post largely depends on what tradition your school follows...almost all TSD books will call it something different, as will instructors, in any case I learned it as "aejun kwon do kong kyuk".

Concerning the # 2 question, the preparation with the arms is called a chamber...this particular instance is one unique to main line TSD'ers because they most always use the hands at the hip chamber for soo dos...But this hadan soo do is performed with hip twist (hu ri tuel) to develop power, so the preparation may be slight drawing back of the leg to torque the hip, for the explosive application of the hadan soo do mahk kee. It is performed left 90 degrees, then right 45 degrees, and then opposite on the right side (90 and 45 degrees).
Hope that helps,
--josh
Oh goody :) More info. A chamber, eh. I'll write that one down. And your info does help a lot. I knew good and well there'd be a twist of the hip/leg preparation in there to wind up for explosiveness. I just experimented and since it's not full-on defensive stepping, do you bring your leg straight back just a bit before stepping forward? I tried that and it does add more power but I don't know if that's the right preparation. (I know I don't have to worry about this until green belt but it's good to know.)

[Lynne]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in even though I'm TKD. This Pyung ahn cho dan hyung is also our third form after the kichos. I just wanted to second Josh's point about the hip twist and power. One of the things that your teacher may look at is how your belt's ends move when you do those last techniques, I know mine does.

Also, be aware that they know when you cheat those belt ends into flying about too! ;)

I'll put weights in the end of mine! :D

So you learn Pyung Agn E Dan and Sam Dan before the Cho Dan? This will be my fourth form.

[crushing]

I'll put weights in the end of mine! :D

So you learn Pyung Agn E Dan and Sam Dan before the Cho Dan? This will be my fourth form.

Hmm. Weights. Also gotta figure out a snapping mechanism for the cuffs of the pants and jacket. ;)

WOW! I really messed that sentence up. I meant Cho Dan is the first form we learn after the three kichos. We do the the Pyung Ahns in order. My apologies.

[Lynne]

Hmm. Weights. Also gotta figure out a snapping mechanism for the cuffs of the pants and jacket. ;)

WOW! I really messed that sentence up. I meant Cho Dan is the first form we learn after the three kichos. We do the the Pyung Ahns in order. My apologies.
My uniform is too floppy to snap - 8 oz. I really have tried to snap it with a good punch. I might was well snap a sock.

Well, I wouldn't have been surprised if you were doing your Pyung Ahns in a different order. I'd read something here about the third one having been first - some political thing where they'd been flip-flopped.

[JT_the_Ninja]

I can't be sure how exactly your school teaches the hyung, but as for us, these are the first few moves of pyung ahn cho dan:

(1) From choon bee, look left. Turn to the left with left fist crossed to right shoulder, right fist down in front of body, left knee raised. Step down with hadan mahkee in chungul jase.

(2) Right foot steps, right hand choong dan kong kyuk (center punch) in chungul jase.

(3) Look over right shoulder. Simultaneously cross right over left (as in 1, but reverse) and pivot on left foot 180 degrees clockwise, then stepping into right hand hadan mahkee in chungul jase.

(4) Without raising the right hand, snap it back so that the elbow is in on the solar plexus, arm bent at a near right angle with forearm sticking more or less straight out from the body. At the same time, right foot snaps back so that feet are almost touching, pointed at a right angle (meaning left foot pivots). Back remains straight. Cross left hand to right shoulder, stand straight up and deliver a right hand hammerfist, left hand drawing back to ribs on left side. Step forward with left foot and left hand center punch in chungul jase.


Your school seems to muddle (4) a bit, which is unfortunate, as it obscures the point behind that move: your opponent grabs your right hand; you snap your hand out of your opponent's grip (going against the thumb) and counter. Basic ho sin sul move.

As to the hadan soo do mahkee series at the end, just make sure you pick up your feet/knees so that you're pointing the correct direction first. Your back foot should also be facing forward at first as well, pivoting as your stepping foot lands, allowing you to put more snap into it (and also giving you more freedom of movement midway through the move).

[Chizikunbo]

Oh goody :) More info. A chamber, eh. I'll write that one down. And your info does help a lot. I knew good and well there'd be a twist of the hip/leg preparation in there to wind up for explosiveness. I just experimented and since it's not full-on defensive stepping, do you bring your leg straight back just a bit before stepping forward? I tried that and it does add more power but I don't know if that's the right preparation. (I know I don't have to worry about this until green belt but it's good to know.)

Okay, from the last right middle punch, right leg forward, look left, chamber left hand high, right hand low (this is called an um yang chamber, or the dobson method chamber) turn left 270 degrees pivoting on the right leg into cat stance, as you complete your turn use the hip torque you have generated, and sink into your stance while executing the hadan soodo mahk kee, chamber right hand high, left hand low, look 45 degrees right, while you look right, torque your hip to the left (facing your body square to the left where we executed the soo do, and use the hu ri tuel (hip twist) while you step out with the right foot at the 45 degrees, again sink your weight (and breath out, which guided energy downward, the opposite guides it upward just FYI), and use the hip twist snapping down the soo do kong kyuk, then do the same (opposite hand movements from above) at 90 degrees to the right, and from there 45 degrees to the left before you return (baro). Just experiment with it slowly, remembering the correct angles to turn, and "cocking" your hip before stepping out and executing the soodo, it will be worked out from there ;-) Dont modify the stances, only changin them in the transition, as it says in the song of sip sam seh (thirteen influences), the source of the will (power) is in the waist! Remember to pay attention to your posture as well, keep your back straight, and your tail bone tucked under, otherwise your back is not truly straight. (dont leave your behind sticking out)...this has a big effect on power generation...the forms are like books that can be read for awsome stuff, but only if we read them correctly (i.e. not changing the words as we go through 'em)..

Hope that helps, and best wishes in your training!
--josh

[stoneheart]

Hey stoneheart, how do you balance your weight on the back leg??? Both of our legs are straight. Is your back leg bent?

Thank you for the Korean names and descriptions.

I feel a little more like I know what I'm doing.

Yes, my back leg is bent. I don't see how a cat stance could be performed without bending your leg since it's meant to be a transitory defensive position. It's not a strong stance that you use to hold ground with. The bending helps you explode into more avoiding footwork or hopefully a more attacking posture. I'm rather fond of dropping into a cat stance as when I sidestep an attacker. I then immediately counter with a lead leg front kick, since the weight loading is already conveniently in place already.

Of course I am more of an Okinawan karate guy, so your mileage may vary.

[Tez3]

Stoneheart, your cat stance is the same as mine for the same reasons! (I know it as Mashomen no Nekoashi, front view cat stance) Theres three cat stances as opposed to the one TSD one.

The fourth move we do is definirely different from JT's description, this is what is says in my book:

3. Look to left and turn 180 onto the first right line,right foot forwards. Execute a right hand low block in front stance.
4. Twist the right hand clockwise then pull the right foot to 90degrees to the left and execute a hammer punch by bringing the right fist above the head, movements 3 and 4 should be executed in quick succession applying hip twist.

That's the 'correct' way according to the book we go by however we don't bring the fist over the head, we do it karate style which I won't confuse you with!

I used to do a lot of kata compotitions, single and team kata so have a very nice thick Gi which makes good 'swishing' noises and certainly snaps when I move lol!

[stoneheart]

Stoneheart, your cat stance is the same as mine for the same reasons! (I know it as Mashomen no Nekoashi, front view cat stance) Theres three cat stances as opposed to the one TSD one.


That's interesting, Tez3. I've studied a smattering of various karate systems, but I really have the most time in goju-ryu, and I only have the one cat stance. Do you mind briefly describing the others?

[Tez3]

No worries, Wado also has three horse riding stances lol! It has stances for everything, Chinto, Gyakuzuki, Seishan, natural stance, short fighting stance, there's loads!
Anyway, front view cat stance (Mashomen no Nekoashi) is as previously discussed used for knife hands going forward usually. Side view cat stance (Mahanmi no Nekoashi) which is used in Pinan Shodan (Pyung Ee Dan)for the first movement with blocks.
The last is back view or reverse view cat stance (Gyakunekoashi) is used in Pinan Godan (Pyung Oh Dan where its called Sang Soo Joong Dan Mahk Kee) just before that horrible jump! My instructor who used to do Shotokan as well calls it Dragon stance.
Hope that explains it? If not I'll try to be more technical, the internet challenges my powers of description lol, it's so much easier to show!

[JT_the_Ninja]

Stoneheart, your cat stance is the same as mine for the same reasons! (I know it as Mashomen no Nekoashi, front view cat stance) Theres three cat stances as opposed to the one TSD one.

The fourth move we do is definirely different from JT's description, this is what is says in my book:

3. Look to left and turn 180 onto the first right line,right foot forwards. Execute a right hand low block in front stance.
4. Twist the right hand clockwise then pull the right foot to 90degrees to the left and execute a hammer punch by bringing the right fist above the head, movements 3 and 4 should be executed in quick succession applying hip twist.

That's the 'correct' way according to the book we go by however we don't bring the fist over the head, we do it karate style which I won't confuse you with!

I used to do a lot of kata compotitions, single and team kata so have a very nice thick Gi which makes good 'swishing' noises and certainly snaps when I move lol!

Actually, that's not all that different from the way I do it. I was just a lot more descriptive, since we focus a lot on making sure students grasp the ho sin sul aspect of that move. I broke down the "steps" into "counts." One number = one count. As the students get better with the form, the move becomes faster, but hopefully no less technically correct.

[Tez3]

Actually, that's not all that different from the way I do it. I was just a lot more descriptive, since we focus a lot on making sure students grasp the ho sin sul aspect of that move. I broke down the "steps" into "counts." One number = one count. As the students get better with the form, the move becomes faster, but hopefully no less technically correct.

The book I work from is Grand Master Kang UK Lee, it's probably not as descriptive as it has photos. However a lot of the photos show the back view only on some which means I have to guess where the hands are sometimes as in Chil Sung Ee Ro, where it says " Simultaneously, cross both open hands in front of the face and bring them apart at eye level" in the picture you can't see the arms or the hands so I don't know what the hands are doing exactly! I can't ask my instructor, he doesn't know the hyung , I'm teaching myself which is reasonably easy as I have a good grasp of katas and hyungs plus stances and techniques..... as long as I know what they are supposed to be lol!

[agemechanic03]

The book I work from is Grand Master Kang UK Lee, it's probably not as descriptive as it has photos. However a lot of the photos show the back view only on some which means I have to guess where the hands are sometimes as in Chil Sung Ee Ro, where it says " Simultaneously, cross both open hands in front of the face and bring them apart at eye level" in the picture you can't see the arms or the hands so I don't know what the hands are doing exactly! I can't ask my instructor, he doesn't know the hyung , I'm teaching myself which is reasonably easy as I have a good grasp of katas and hyungs plus stances and techniques..... as long as I know what they are supposed to be lol!

If you haven't figured it out by what he means with "croos both open hands in front of the face, think of it as you are grabbing the inside of your opponents dobok, then twist out, then pull and front kick with your back leg simultaniously.

[Tez3]

If you haven't figured it out by what he means with "croos both open hands in front of the face, think of it as you are grabbing the inside of your opponents dobok, then twist out, then pull and front kick with your back leg simultaniously.


Ah! that's so simple, thank you! I wasn't sure if the palms were facing me, away or each other lol! But that does the job nicely! I suspect the book does it deliberately to make sure you ask an instructor which is a fair one really.

[JT_the_Ninja]

The book I work from is Grand Master Kang UK Lee, it's probably not as descriptive as it has photos. However a lot of the photos show the back view only on some which means I have to guess where the hands are sometimes as in Chil Sung Ee Ro, where it says " Simultaneously, cross both open hands in front of the face and bring them apart at eye level" in the picture you can't see the arms or the hands so I don't know what the hands are doing exactly! I can't ask my instructor, he doesn't know the hyung , I'm teaching myself which is reasonably easy as I have a good grasp of katas and hyungs plus stances and techniques..... as long as I know what they are supposed to be lol!

I have that book, actually, so I understand what you mean.

[Lynne]

Thanks for all the replies and tips. My instructor seems to be happy with my progress and I'm getting feedback on how to improve my techniques.

Also, we were doing stepping Hadan Sudo Makee with combinations the other night. We were twisting with Hadan Sudo Makee just like we do with Hadon Makee. That gave me a chance, in class, to practice.

I specifically asked about twisting in the form and was told not to, but to place my forward leg first before I chopped. This seems to force you to twist at the waist as far as I can tell. That was an important piece of information as I was likely to chop and move my leg at the same time just like we would in a low block or a high block.

[Tez3]

Once you get past a certain point in your training the hyungs/katas become much easier as you will have already done the techniques and you just have to learn the actual order rather than learning a whole bunch of new techniques. It's quite satisfying when your instructor can take you through a new kata just by telling you what technique is next! If you have a book or video it's easy to follow as well when you know whats what!

It's good to remember though what you found difficult and how you got around it as you find yourself teaching others far quicker than you thought you would!

[Lynne]

Once you get past a certain point in your training the hyungs/katas become much easier as you will have already done the techniques and you just have to learn the actual order rather than learning a whole bunch of new techniques. It's quite satisfying when your instructor can take you through a new kata just by telling you what technique is next! If you have a book or video it's easy to follow as well when you know whats what!

It's good to remember though what you found difficult and how you got around it as you find yourself teaching others far quicker than you thought you would!

I had learned my 3rd form from the school video. I didn't learn the Pyung Ahn Cho Dan from the video because I didn't know what the various moves were, like the chop block down the middle or the low knife blocks. Even watching the video, knowing to look for arm preparation and defensive/offensive stepping wasn't that helpful. There are books we can buy but I haven't had the $$ to fork over yet.

At least I knew half of the form already. There is something exciting, though, about the challenge of learning new moves even if I feel like my brain is going to blow up sometimes.

[Tez3]

I had learned my 3rd form from the school video. I didn't learn the Pyung Ahn Cho Dan from the video because I didn't know what the various moves were, like the chop block down the middle or the low knife blocks. Even watching the video, knowing to look for arm preparation and defensive/offensive stepping wasn't that helpful. There are books we can buy but I haven't had the $$ to fork over yet.

At least I knew half of the form already. There is something exciting, though, about the challenge of learning new moves even if I feel like my brain is going to blow up sometimes.


Wow! I didn't start teaching myself until I'd got my 1st Dan and outstripped my TSD instructor! I've never had to teach myself the basic kata thankfully. It's impressive that you have taught yourself, it can't have been easy but I must admit I'm a bit appalled that you had to!

[Lynne]

My form is getting better and better. The Hadon Sudo Makees aren't quite "natural" yet (well, it's been just over a week since I started learning the form). I have to do this form in the competition in October so I want it to be great. I don't care about winning but I do care about executing the form well.

My daughter wants to teach me one of the Chil Sun forms and have me do that. Maybe later. Much later!

[Lynne]

Wow! I didn't start teaching myself until I'd got my 1st Dan and outstripped my TSD instructor! I've never had to teach myself the basic kata thankfully. It's impressive that you have taught yourself, it can't have been easy but I must admit I'm a bit appalled that you had to!
Well, I was taught the first form and second forms. The second, Gi Cho Hyung E Bu, was fairly easy as it's almost identical to the first, except for high punches and high blocks. The third form I did learn from our school's DVD; I was troubled that I didn't get feedback during the two months before my next belt test. By definition, as a beginner, I need correction. They thought I was doing great, come to find out. But I didn't know that. You can always go a little deeper in the back stance, you can always square your shoulders (that's a problem I have, sloppy shoulders), and a million other things.

This time around, they are paying much more attention to my form and correcting me. I ask questions, too, by the way. I am finding out asking questions is the best way to improve. There isn't always time for questions or an appropriate time. I wait for the instructor to ask if anyone has a question or if they are working with me one-on-one. The Pyong Ahn Cho Dan form has a lot of room for mistakes.

[JWLuiza]

My uniform is too floppy to snap - 8 oz. I really have tried to snap it with a good punch. I might was well snap a sock.

Well, I wouldn't have been surprised if you were doing your Pyung Ahns in a different order. I'd read something here about the third one having been first - some political thing where they'd been flip-flopped.


Okinawan Japanese Korean
Pinan Nidan(2) Heian Shodan Pyong Ahn Chodan
Pinan Shodan(1) Heian Nidan Pyong Ahn Nidan

Funakoshi Gichin (maybe his son) switched the order for the ease of learning.

Iain Abernethy has a theory that Pinan Shodan (our Pyong Ahn Ee Dan) was first because of the pedagogy behind the learning order. Check out his podcasts for more info.

[Makalakumu]

Okinawan Japanese Korean
Pinan Nidan(2) Heian Shodan Pyong Ahn Chodan
Pinan Shodan(1) Heian Nidan Pyong Ahn Nidan

Funakoshi Gichin (maybe his son) switched the order for the ease of learning.

Iain Abernethy has a theory that Pinan Shodan (our Pyong Ahn Ee Dan) was first because of the pedagogy behind the learning order. Check out his podcasts for more info.

Do you have the link to that podcast? I must be blind...

[JWLuiza]

Do you have the link to that podcast? I must be blind...

I subscribe through iTunes, and it was one from July... Sorry!

[Lynne]

Yes, my back leg is bent. I don't see how a cat stance could be performed without bending your leg since it's meant to be a transitory defensive position. It's not a strong stance that you use to hold ground with. The bending helps you explode into more avoiding footwork or hopefully a more attacking posture. I'm rather fond of dropping into a cat stance as when I sidestep an attacker. I then immediately counter with a lead leg front kick, since the weight loading is already conveniently in place already.

Of course I am more of an Okinawan karate guy, so your mileage may vary.
The deal is we weren't going into a cat stance/hulgul jaseh at that point. It is some other kind of move. We only do the cat stance with the Hadon Soo Do Makees. I realize that's different than how some people do the form.

After doing the low block on the right side, we straighten our left leg, pull in the right foot on it's toe, do a downward hammer strike, then we pull the left foot in perpendicular to our left foot, performing a hammer strike /block at the same angle as an inside/outside block.