Lofty Claims in Martial Arts Advertisement

[Independent_TKD]

I was recently browsing the internet and noticed an advertisment by Lloyd Irvine. From his credentials, he seems to be genuinely good at what he does. However, his add claims that news students can earn a black belt in judo within one year. I've practiced judo for 3+ years and am only just now a brown belt.

The add also claims that students can reach a BJJ color belt within months and a BJJ black belt in three years.

Has anyone else seen this add? Unless you start his program as a world sombo champion or an olympic wrestling gold medalist, I don't see how these claims can be true.

[Tez3]

Well he'll be sued by the UFC soon for using the words 'octogon cage' in his ad!
I don't know about judo but there's no way he can give out BJJ belts in that short a time, they take years.It's the slowest grading system I know of. I can't see it being true either.

[tshadowchaser]

haveing not seen the ad or seen the program in action all I will say is each instructor has his own thoughts on what it takes to get a BB and what it costs to pay for it

[CuongNhuka]

The Cuong Nhu thought on attaining your Black Belt: It wont be any time soon, but you'll appreciate when you get it! Which is true, you need atleast 4 years to get that Belt, and the normal range is 5-6.

[Kacey]

I was recently browsing the internet and noticed an advertisment by Lloyd Irvine. From his credentials, he seems to be genuinely good at what he does. However, his add claims that news students can earn a black belt in judo within one year. I've practiced judo for 3+ years and am only just now a brown belt.

The add also claims that students can reach a BJJ color belt within months and a BJJ black belt in three years.

Has anyone else seen this add? Unless you start his program as a world sombo champion or an olympic wrestling gold medalist, I don't see how these claims can be true.

I've never seen the ad - but the purpose of advertising is to get potential clients in the door. Once there, and signed up, truth in advertising requires that the terms of the advertising be possible - there's nothing about likely, just possible. It is possible (if unlikely) for someone who devotes sufficient time to training could indeed truly earn belts in the time frame stated... but either the facility is selling belts, or there's some significant small print that's just not apparent in the advertising - or it's a lie. Not having seen it, or having any experience with the person you name, I can't say.

[TheOriginalName]

It is possible (if unlikely) for someone who devotes sufficient time to training could indeed truly earn belts in the time frame stated...


Alright time for a crazy man's thoughts (yes, that's me).
I've only been training in MA for about 4 months now and i could not imagine what level of training it would take to go from nothing to black in a year.
I train 4 hours a week - intense hours a week i should really say, and i find that this is pushing my body to it's limits.

But hey, each to their own - and the above it true, it only has to be possible.

You could probably get him for missleading advertising, but you really have to wonder about someones commitment to the art if they are only looking to be committed for 12 months.

But hey, these are the thoughts of someone who enjoys their insanity...so take it with a grain of salt or even sugar if you prefer.

[Last Fearner]

I was recently browsing the internet and noticed an advertisment by Lloyd Irvine. From his credentials, he seems to be genuinely good at what he does. However, his add claims that news students can earn a black belt in judo within one year.

It appears you might be talking about Lloyd Irvin. Here are some links about him, his background, and some claims he makes about training and rank:

"Follow Lloyd On A Journey Of Doing The Impossible. Lloyd got his BJJ Blue Belt In Only 30 Days, Got His BJJ Black Belt In Only 3 ½ Years And Laughs At The People That Said It Couldn’t Be Done. Follow Him On A Journey To Reach Your Potential At Lightning Speeds."


http://www.lloydirvinlive.com/cd_tgphen.htm
__________________________________________________ ________________

Lloyd Irvin is a World Renowned martial arts coach, competitor and expert. He is a Multiple Time National Judo Champion, a Multiple Time National Sombo Champion and after coming out of a three-year retirement he recently became aBrazilian Jui Jitsu World Champion. A Graduate of Bowie State University he holds the rank of 7th Degree Black Belt in Thai Jitsu, 1st Degree Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, 5th Degree Black Belt in Combat Sombo, and a 1st Degree Black Belt in Judo.
He's the only person in the World to hold black belts in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Combat Sombo and Judo.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] In 2002 he was named The United States Judo Federation International Coach of the year.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Irvin

[Last Fearner's note: I find it interesting that he is only a 1st Dan in Judo yet he is named the USJF International Coach of the year! Also, how would he offer training to 1st Dan and certification of a Black Belt in Judo if he is only 1st Dan? Although he has apparently won several Judo Championship titles, the concepts of rank, teaching and the authority to promote is typically separate from sports titles.]
__________________________________________________ ________________

In this link, it states the following:

"After Receiving His Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt In Only 4 Years And Defeating Two Gracie's Mike Fowler Finally Reveals

How His Instructor Got His Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt In 3 1/2 Years, A Judo Black Belt In 1 Year And A Sombo Black Belt In One Year."

[Note: It does not state that you can get the Black Belt in one year, just that Mike Fowler tells you how his instructor (Lloyd Irvin) got HIS Judo and Sombo Black Belt in one year.]

"Why It Doesn't Take 10 Years To Get A Black Belt (We've All Been Lied To)"

"The Grappling Blueprint is the exact Step-by-step training system that Lloyd Irvin used to shatter the grappling learning curve and went on to earn black belts in BJJ, Judo and Sombo all in under 4 years."

[Again, does not say you can do it, just how Lloyd Irvin did it]

"Enter Your Name And Email Address Below And Discover How He Was Able To Do It."

[Note: "How He Was Able To Do It."]


http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/
__________________________________________________ ________________


This whole "rank debate" is really quite silly, in my opinion. Even if I were to claim in an ad that You WILL earn your Black Belt in ONE MONTH "Guaranteed!" it still would not be a false claim if I issue everyone a Black Belt after one month. All this boils down to is, what is the worth of a Black Belt earned in a short time? A Black Belt is a piece of cloth. Anyone can issue a Black Belt. There are no legal restrictions, nor legal definitions as to what a Black Belt is, or what it takes to "earn" one.

A Black Belt is only worth something in the minds of those who have it, and those who view it as being worth something - - like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I Black Belt is supposed to represent a level of progress along the various grades of a curriculum. What that curriculum is, and what the standards are for attaining each level may change from organization to organization, and instructor to instructor.

If a person's claim is to offer something they can not provide, such as rank from an organization they are not affiliated with, or a Black Belt from that organization within one year if they do not permit Black Belts within one year, then that would be false advertisement. The fact is, there are so many people running around claiming to be experts in arts (IE: Judo, Karate, Taekwondo, BJJ, etc), that it has become a free-for-all on teaching whatever you want, claiming your own "style" and issuing rank at the drop of a hat (or a few hundred dollars).

This is why rank has value, but is worthless at the same time. It really only means what is evident by the source issuing it, and the abilities of the person holding it. If the source is legit and honest, and the person is qualified, then the rank actually means something. Otherwise, it is not worth the paper it is written on, nor the threads it took to sew the belt together. Not all rank is worthless, just those that are given out without justification. Therefore, claims of rank can't be held to any standard but your own, and those who are willing to issue it. There are no false claims about Black Belt rank, time it takes to attain it, or how much it costs unless you mention affiliation with an organization, or other person from whom you do not have permission to do so.

Personally, I am never impressed when someone says "You can earn your Black Belt from me in under "X" amount of time. Time should never be the issue. Quality, and competency is what should be important, in my opinion.

[Shotgun Buddha]

Pffft. He's certainly no Lieutenant X. Now there's a man who gets things done!

[K31]

Pffft. He's certainly no Lieutenant X. Now there's a man who gets things done!

Good one. :)

Lt. X is the reincarnation of Frank Dux.

[Sukerkin]

A well thought through and laid out post above, LF :tup:.

[Brian R. VanCise]

A well thought through and laid out post above, LF :tup:.

Yes that was quite a good post Last Ferner! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Tez3]

Last Fearner is right of course, when we say you can't earn belts that quickly we are thinking of genuine clubs not ones where they sell the belts.
It does cross my mind sometimes when I'm struggling with the club accounts trying to find money to pay bills etc that wouldn't it be so much easier if we joined one of those billing companies that bombard us and earn loads of money but then common sense kicks in and I think well at least when our people grade they know they earned it and they can fight/defend themselves etc. We don't earn posh cars and fancy houses at others expense still. . . . . . if only we could get a little more money in.

[SensibleManiac]

Hi guys, I've heard great things about Lloyd Irvin, one thing is his students success and not to mention Brandon Vera who is a phenomenal fighter.
Mr. Irvin's whole thing is organizing the structure of your training to the point of developing as good and as fast as possible. Going into a training session with a goal on your mind and keeping a training log are 2 of the basics involved.
Of course his advertising uses that terminology, "find out how he did it that fast" as a way to gain attention, but I agree that's not the most important thing in training. Quality training is, which I think he is offering.

[Balrog]

For wild-ass claims, I don't think anyone beats this guy:

http://streetcombat.8m.com/main.html


I have laughed about this site for years.

[Dave Leverich]

Dangit Balrog!!!

I JUST had forgotten about that guy!
You strike again! (He posted it like 3 years ago after I'd forgotten about that guy last time rofl).
Hehehe.

[Drac]

For wild-ass claims, I don't think anyone beats this guy:

http://streetcombat.8m.com/main.html


I have laughed about this site for years.

Too flipping funny...Never saw it before..

[Em MacIntosh]

If you put in 5 hours per day, six days per week, rain or shine all year some people are capable of attaining what I would consider the honest, competent level of BB but that's also if you naturally fit into the "jacket". Natural flexibility and excellent kinesthesiological awareness, natural strength etc. Unless you're independantly wealthy or have paid for an intense immersion program good luck setting aside that kind of time. The diet you have to eat would be extensive and all that meal time, recovery, commute etc. all add up quick. Plus you have to have your head in the right place, undistracted virtually all the time. Some of us are capable though (Chuck Norris?)

[Tez3]

Dangit Balrog!!!

I JUST had forgotten about that guy!
You strike again! (He posted it like 3 years ago after I'd forgotten about that guy last time rofl).
Hehehe.

I think you should go through all the rubbish until you get to the bottom where there is a list of people who have challenged Master Bristol and been vanquished.... in that list is one Joe Rogan, from Los Angeles... who was submitted in 19.4 seconds!!! If true if impresses me!

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I think you should go through all the rubbish until you get to the bottom where there is a list of people who have challenged Master Bristol and been vanquished.... in that list is one Joe Rogan, from Los Angeles... who was submitted in 19.4 seconds!!! If true if impresses me!

Tez3,
That's not nearly as impressive as this one on the news page.




Hans Eric Bristol Defeats Rickson Gracie
Ever since Hans Eric Bristol started sending Rickson Gracie numerous challenges, Rickson has not responded. Hans even used a male stripper messenger service to deliver the challenge to Rickson himself at his school in Pacific Palisades, California on January 23, 2004 to invoke a response from him. Still, nothing. On December 12, 2004, Hans Eric Bristol was finally able to challenge Rickson. At 2:00 A.M. in the morning, Hans through meditation made his celestial body separate from his physical body. His celestial body arrived at Rickson's home where Hans drew Rickson's celestial body out into the open. Rickson's celestial self accepted the challenge. Hans visualized a cage out in the Neo-Tranzoride realm where the fight was to take place.
During the fight, Rickson attempted numerous takedowns. Hans was able to evade the takedowns by shifting his body to the side and visually redirecting Rickson's eyesight with a feinting motion. The frustrated Rickson attempted to punch. Hans was able to block and dodge many of the punches, but Rickson did land one sharp jab at Hans' face. Then suddenly, Hans darted, and he disappeared from Rickson's frontal view. Then Rickson was surprised to know that Hans was in back of him. He turned around where he was met with a left hook to the chin. Rickson was knocked out in 21.3 seconds. Hans Eric Bristol has won the challenge. Keep in mind, the Neo-Tranzoride realm is a place in the celestial plane where the physical laws of nature are EXACTLY the same as in reality as proven by neo-physicists, so this is valid victory. After the fight, Rickson woke up in his bedroom with a bruised chin with total memory of what has happened. Hans also was able to pinch Rickson's sacral nerve after he was knocked out which made him impotent. Hans imputed into Rickson's memory that he is the only one who can align his nerve function meridian, and that he will only do this if Rickson's would release a public letter telling of his defeat to Hans Eric Bristol Hans Eric Bristol thanks Rickson Gracie for accepting this challenge. Rickson Gracie is wholeheartedly respected.


_Don Flatt

[bydand]

He turned around where he was met with a left hook to the chin. Rickson was knocked out in 21.3 seconds. Hans Eric Bristol has won the challenge. Keep in mind, the Neo-Tranzoride realm is a place in the celestial plane where the physical laws of nature are EXACTLY the same as in reality as proven by neo-physicists, so this is valid victory. After the fight, Rickson woke up in his bedroom with a bruised chin with total memory of what has happened. Hans also was able to pinch Rickson's sacral nerve after he was knocked out which made him impotent. Hans imputed into Rickson's memory that he is the only one who can align his nerve function meridian, and that he will only do this if Rickson's would release a public letter telling of his defeat to Hans Eric Bristol Hans Eric Bristol thanks Rickson Gracie for accepting this challenge.

:lfao: I guess if you can challenge somebody like that, and the Neo-Tranzoride realm has been proven to be exactly the same as reality, I am the worlds greatest stud because I have had more than a few actresses and models take me up on my offers while sleeping. :)

Now I see how he whips behind so quickly, hope he doesn't read this and come pinch my sacral nerve to make me a believer. Of course if the wife reads this Master Bristol will not have to :idunno:

[CoryKS]

Gracie deserved to have his Neo-Tranzoridian butt whooped. It is not honorable to disregard the Male Strip-o-Gram of Martial Challenge.

[Sukerkin]

I'm so glad that I wasn't eating or drinking when I read the above reportage - I'm also glad that there wasn't a mirror nearby to reflect back at me my slack-jawed-idiot expression as I emit an astonished "Whaa ...?!".

[CuongNhuka]

It is not honorable to disregard the Male Strip-o-Gram of Martial Challenge.

Strip-o-gram? I think I missed something, somewhere... (-tries not think of male strippers-), LOL

[Tez3]

And who said all the fun went out of MA! Master Bristol used to post on a forum I use - SFUK (Submission Fighting UK) where people have a tendency to say what they think lol!

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Master Bristol is not just the ultimate martial artist, he's also the ultimate lover.




Through travels all over Europe and America as a talented stage magician, Hans Eric Bristol met and befriended the world's well-known celebrities and public figures. Hans tells own his true life encounters with Princess Diana, Prince Charles, Prime Minister of France, Antony Hopkins, John Travolta, Slyvester Stallone, and many more. In 1996, Hans Eric Bristol was appointed the Chairman of Athletics by the Prime Minister of Switzerland. He made frequent trips to the White House where he advised the president on the U.S.'s health and athletic programs. In his book, Hans Eric Bristol revealed his controversial torrid two week love affair with first lady, Hillary Clinton, along with dilemma he had with the Swiss tabloid that ensued afterward.

"Hillary and I would take long walks out in the White House rose garden. Chelsea would sometimes follow. I remembered the day August 18, 1996 at 9 in the morning when I first kissed Hillary. In the garden, there would be this large maple tree. Hillary and I walked under it. Hillary turned around and hugged me and said, "Do you know that you are a wonderful man." She leaned forward and kissed me. Out of the corner of my eye I saw Chelsea looking on in the distance. She smiled. For the next two weeks we went on outings and we would have long, passionate episodes of kissing and fondling whenever the secret service agents cannot see us. Though being an older women, she had the vivaciousness of a twenty -year-old coupled with the charm and discipline of a mature women.".... "We ended the affair after two weeks when I left to go back home. Though we never slept together, I can tell in Hillary's eyes that if this world were free of judgement and gossip, we would be together forever. She was my heart. I had what her husband lacked. Chelsea knew of our affair and approved of us. I cannot speak for her, but I felt that I had everything that her father didn't have."


_Don Flatt

[CoryKS]

Strip-o-gram? I think I missed something, somewhere... (-tries not think of male strippers-), LOL

From Kosho Gakkusei's post:



Ever since Hans Eric Bristol started sending Rickson Gracie numerous challenges, Rickson has not responded. Hans even used a male stripper messenger service to deliver the challenge to Rickson himself at his school in Pacific Palisades, California on January 23, 2004 to invoke a response from him. Still, nothing.


Again, one does not disregard the Strip-o-Gram of Challenge. Whole chapters have been devoted to this breach of etiquette in the Asian texts of lore.

[Last Fearner]

You know, another point comes to my mind about this rush to Black Belt. There are those who make these statements of revelation that they figured out, contrary to traditional time tables, that you can reach "Black Belt" quicker than previously thought!



"Why It Doesn't Take 10 Years To Get A Black Belt (We've All Been Lied To)"

In my opinion, this is the sign of a naive, inexperienced Martial Artist. This just goes to show that a person can have great physical talent, win championships, and still not be enlightened to the truth about teaching the Art. The wise Masters of the past who set these lengthy time tables for achieving Black Belt did not do so because it was not possible to learn this material in a short time. They did so because of the maturity required of someone who was learning a deadly art. Serious, dedicated instructors understand the responsibility of teaching what we know, and have more integrity and ethics than to rush to teach someone you barely know who they are, or what their intentions are, such a deadly skill.

One could admire Lloyd Irvin for what he has accomplished, but he would not be the first who was able to learn quickly, and have a natural talent for this knowledge. What I don't respect about his website is that he is attempting to make the unjustified transition from student, and athlete, to an all knowing Master who reveals that he has discovered it does not take 10 years to reach Black Belt. If I could stay in business doing so, I would make students wait longer.

Only an uneducated Black Belt (perhaps one who rushed to that level themselves) would presume to know better than all of the Grandmasters who came before him, and dispense with he time requirements for a student to mature in the Art, and for the instructor to get to know that student, having a great influence on that person's life, character, self-control, and discipline before teaching them the most advanced, deadly techniques.

I'm not impressed with anyone who makes such claims!

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Again, one does not disregard the Strip-o-Gram of Challenge. Whole chapters have been devoted to this breach of etiquette in the Asian texts of lore.
True, but in Brazillian ettiquite the Male Strip-o-Gram is acknowledging the others superior skills and stating the subservience of the sender to the recipient. Knowing that you could understand Ricksons confusion on the challenge and the surprise he encountered given Master Bristol's apparent dominance in the Neo-Tranzoridian realm.

_Don Flatt