The Arts i plan on mastering / What is Mastering really mean? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com

bart

01-04-2003, 03:13 AM

Hey,

You guys have to cut the kid some slack, he's only 18. When I was 18 I wanted to master Kosho Ryu Kenpo, Hsing I, Wing Chun, Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, and Judo.

Then over the course of the years I found that mastery is elusive and that just when you think you know something, you find that it's really just the beginning. I don't have enough years to master those. So I'll be sticking with Wing Chun and Doce Pares and even that's aggressive.

Martial Arts mastery has much more to do with attitude, understanding, perseverence, and seasoning than it does with the acquisition of techniques.

Attitude requires being humbled. Understanding requires studying theory, culture, kinesiology, etc. Perseverence requires the juxtaposition of your everyday life vs your time in the school. Seasoning requires years of learning the correct attitude, gaining accurate understanding through practice and study, and persevering in the pursuit of balance between your martial arts and the requirements of being a good person.

Good luck in your pursuit. I still believe in mastery, but I just haven't gotten there yet.

J-kid

01-04-2003, 04:00 AM

First off age really dosnt matter, second off I can and will master those arts one way or another, Like sambo is alot like judo and jujutsu is almost like Judo and sambo the three are close. Boxing and Mt are alike, Wrestling is diffrent yet effective and when submissions are added most look like Jujutsu submissions and are easy to pick up since my grappling back ground. And again Escrima is diffrent then all of them though but i have a master of Escrima that gos to my judo school and we have clinics for stick fighting clinics, I am going to one tommorrow, Listen It dosnt have to take a life time, So what some people are slower at learning i learn hard fast and link of fighting all day. You might just do it for fun , This is my way of life One day ill prove my self on UFC and show the world...... Tito and bob are going down.....

J-kid

01-04-2003, 04:11 AM

I made a mistake online, the common mistake of posting my age, these people on here who try and act mature have to try and make it seem like Im incapable of coming up with an original thought. Making them ignorence Punks, Many people have done this ''Guys hes only 16 give him a break'' ''hes 16 why should we listen to him'' My favorite I remeber when i was 16, Well guess what i am not you and we are not the same my train of thought is so diffrent then yours and proble will remain diffrent, So what i am a teenager dosnt mean i cant do anything or think on my own. Maybe when you where a teenager you couldnt think clearly but i can. People like you make me sick traped in your own world. :mad:

J-kid

01-04-2003, 04:11 AM

err ment ignorent, up there:soapbox:

bart

01-04-2003, 04:35 AM

Hey,

Like sambo is alot like judo and jujutsu is almost like Judo and sambo the three are close.

They are different though, and different for many reasons. You'll see as you study.

Boxing and Mt are alike, Wrestling is diffrent yet effective and when submissions are added most look like Jujutsu submissions and are easy to pick up since my grappling back ground.

Again they may be similar, but they are different and very different for a good number of reasons. People spent their whole lives making them different.

And again Escrima is diffrent then all of them though but i have a master of Escrima that gos to my judo school and we have clinics for stick fighting clinics, I am going to one tommorrow

You're not going to master any art through clinics shuffled in with other arts, especially eskrima. What style of Eskrima does your "master" classmate practice? By calling himself a master, he must have some creds, what are they?

So what some people are slower at learning i learn hard fast and link of fighting all day. You might just do it for fun , This is my way of life One day ill prove my self on UFC and show the world...... Tito and bob are going down.....

Who do you compare yourself to when you say "some people"? Would that be the local heat in your town? You might need to see the world a bit to really be able to compare yourself to others realistically.

Also, the UFC is one thing, mastery is another. Few of the people who fight in it would even consider themselves masters, especially at a list the size you plopped down for yourself. You might want to add grammar to that list as well, if you intend to be clearly understood.

To be a master of Judo or Jujitsu involves not only technique, but healing, the same for some Eskrima. Does your eskrima "master" do that too? Will you learn it? Did you even know about that? To be a master of Judo also requires study in Japan at the Kodokan. Are you ready to go?

Some of us on the forum have fought or taught MA for a living. so before you go there, learn a little about your audience otherwise you'll seem doltish.

I would say that you're right, for the most part, that age doesn't really matter. Aside from some actual time in training requirements by particular systems, age is often negotiable. But often the accoutrements of age do matter. For instance, living on your own instead of with Mommy and/or Daddy, having a full time job, having an education, having had to sacrifice things that matter for things that matter more, and the list goes on. All of these things are part of mastery, because they are the framework of your life. All of your techniques will be applied within that framework. Make sure you're not confusing being a "technique collector", with mastery. They aren't the same.

One thing about tournaments, like the UFC. They prove you have some fighting skill, but for the most part they just prove that you can fight and maybe win in a tournament.

I do admire your resolve. If you can achieve your goal legitimately, then you truly will be remarkable. I hope that "Tito" and "bob" are quivering in their spandex from the fear of ultimately meeting their competitive demise at your eventual face off. Best of luck.

Yari

01-04-2003, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
This thread is to see what arts people want to learn and plan on mastering...

Good luck...

By the way, what do you mean when you say mastering?

When have you mastered a style?

/Yari

J-kid

01-04-2003, 04:55 AM

Of course there are diffrences in those arts from one from another or i wouldnt need to take them( a given)
The guy who gos to my gym knows 4 styles of escrima and has been doing it a LONG time. Healing what a load of crap, What the heck are you talking about. Hnmm i dont know if i should take you serously anymore. LOL Also i dont need to travel to japan, The way to show your a master is to beat everyone else. Also I never once stated that one night i would go to sleep wake up and be the master of all these arts. I will show you all once i get in the ufc and prove my self you will all aww in wonder because i did it . Became the worlds greatest fighter and i will.

Astra

01-04-2003, 05:13 AM

Damn, how dense can you get. People study a single art exclusively for decades and don't dare call themselves masters yet. Mastering an art doesn't mean you can beat someone else, it means you know nearly everything there is to know about it. If I ever even become good at the style I'm learning at the moment (and I study more then you can immagine) then I'll be happy.
BTW, there will always be someone better then you, so striving to be the best is a lost cause. You will learn these things when you become older and advance in martial arts (except if you are a a product of a McDojang).

Angus

01-04-2003, 06:07 AM

Move along, move along. Lost cause, people. Nothing to see here.

RyuShiKan

01-04-2003, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
I just wana be master in my own damn household for once. :samurai: :wah: :wah: :wah: :wah: :wah:

For it's the Remote for the TV

J-kid

01-04-2003, 07:30 AM

Well with thinking like that of course you will never be the best, You call me dense i call you Ignorent, Dude if people listen to you no one could do anything. Everyone would sit around scared because someone else might be better then them. You know what there is always a number one pritty much and your gonna have to learn and try to fight to be the best or sit back and do nothing like a dipshi*t. your thoughts make me sick, You got a problem and will never make it any where in life. I feel pitty for you.....

RyuShiKan

01-04-2003, 07:32 AM

Judo-Kid,

Who are you talking about?

Aegis

01-04-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
... The way to show your a master is to beat everyone else...

No. It doesn't.

Is a professional boxer a master of karate if he goes into karate dojos and beats the instructors in sparring? Hardly.

Whoever told you this definition of mastery was most certainly not a master themselves, as they don't even begin to see the depth of the martial arts.

Originally posted by Judo-kid
... Jujitsu is almost like Judo...

Well by that reasoning, vetinary studies are almost like being a doctor, I'll open up my own clinic. The more you study these arts, the more differences you find.

*btw: no, I'm not studying to be a vet, just needed a quick example*

Astra

01-04-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well with thinking like that of course you will never be the best, You call me dense i call you Ignorent, Dude if people listen to you no one could do anything. Everyone would sit around scared because someone else might be better then them. You know what there is always a number one pritty much and your gonna have to learn and try to fight to be the best or sit back and do nothing like a dipshi*t. your thoughts make me sick, You got a problem and will never make it any where in life. I feel pitty for you.....

Flames coming from a 16-year old. You're striving toward perfection? Fine, when you reach perfection, come back and gloat all about it. With that kind of attitude, you're probably never going to master a single art.

BTW, a someone only aged 16 is HARDLY the right person to tell someone they will not reach anywhere in their lives, when they
a) Assume and know nothing.
b) Have themselves reached nowhere in life. Still living with your mommy and daddy I see?

H@pkid0ist

01-04-2003, 10:47 AM

I personally don't believe that one can master an art like Hapkido or others like it. It is to eclectic and progressive. Even my teacher who has been a 9th dan since "83" and one or the senior ranking HKD GMs in the world feels this way. But it doesn't mean that you can not be confident and secure about your abilities. I'm just not going to fool myself. Here is a Quote from Neslon Mandele that I do believe in.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that people won't feel insecure around you. We are meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not in just some of us; it's in all of us. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
Nelson Mandela 1994

SteelShadow

01-04-2003, 11:02 AM

In a martial art espeacily one thats always evolving the only thing a person can hope to be a master of is themselves.
And the techniques they learned in there life.Because they will never be able to completly master the art itself .As people we grow old and die the art is always evolving or exspanding there for even after we are gone it will continue to evolve.And I agree with the post no matter how good you are theres always someone better.striving to be the best you can be is a good thing.But trying to be better than everyone else is a waist of time.And even if you never fight or meet the person thats better than you dosnt mean they dont exsist it only means you were lucky.....

Abbax8

01-04-2003, 11:12 AM

quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid
... The way to show your a master is to beat everyone else...

Judo-kid,
when Kano founded Judo, he stated that judo has two fundamental priciples, Best Use of Energy and Mutual Welfare and Benefit. To master judo, one would have to learn to apply these principles in all areas of their life. Beating people up has Nothing to do with it. You have great Intensity, Drive and Desire. If you choose to channel your energies towards competition that's great, and Good Luck. But Mastery? That's different. There have been judo Masters, they are very few. Mifune, Kotani, Samura, Nagaoka, Isogai and Yamashita all achieved tenth Dan and are recognized as judo masters. They got there by winnimg tournaments, AND by teaching the highest principles of JUDO. To truly call yourself a master you too will need to do both, then you will be recognized by OTHERS as a master. One does not take for oneself the title of master, rather it is given to them by others.

Peace
Dennis

KennethKu

01-04-2003, 11:18 AM

Kids are encouraged to dream. Please don't tell them they can't. May be he will extract all the better part of each art and create his own system. Who knows? You got to be able to dream in order to create something out of impossibilities.

So the kid has a big mouth and somewhat of an attitude. Which 16 yrs old is not some what that way? :) Heck, they all learn, eventually. The same way we did! :)

Go ahead and chase your dream, Judo Kid. God Speed! Best of luck to you! You have a whole life in front of you. If only I could be 16 again...... :)

bart

01-04-2003, 11:36 AM

Kids are encouraged to dream. Please don't tell them they can't.

Well said. If the Judo-kid had actually read my post he might have seen that I was being supportive. We were all there once.

Master of Blades

01-04-2003, 12:38 PM

Back on topic, if I can master Kali I would be a happy bunny....and then I would probably move onto Wing Chun and try and master that, I doubt I will be able to do either....but I would love it to happen.

Back off topic, Age has nothing to do with it. Most people here know or should know if they BOTHERED to read my posts that I am the tender young age of 15. I dont get the same replys as you do though. I thought about it and I kinda figured that it isnt anything to do with age but how you put your dreams and ideals across. But I do also think people need to cut you some slack and let you try and accomplish whatever you think you can. I used to think the same kinda thing but all I wanted to Master was BJJ Kali and Wing Chun. My dad shattered that saying that I would rather you mastered just Kali and not all three so that when you go into a fight or tournament or whatever your not alright in three areas against a person who is fantastic in one. Cuz you will most likley lose. Took me two years and many lost spars to realise he was right but it happened.

Still it is nice to know that someone regards their own self esteem highly enough to achieve that lol :D

karatekid1975

01-04-2003, 12:39 PM

I agree with everyone here. "Mastering" an art is a totally different thing than "beating people up". Judo-kid, no offense, but I don't think you have the true meaning of MA. If you like the sport end of it, so be it. Go for it. There's nothing wrong with dreams and goals. But there is more to martial arts than just the "physical" side. MA's are 10% physical, 90% mental. Except the sport ones, but you still have to be disiplined and train mentally in some way. To "master" all those arts is crazy. It takes a life-time to "master" just one art.

fissure

01-04-2003, 01:01 PM

Hey bart, you'll get used to Judo- kid after a while.
Judo- kid, the reason people get on you is because you think that MA is simply about beating the crap out of other people. You figure that if you can choke out your Judo or Wrestling coach then you have "mastered" that discipline. If some other guy comes along and whips you have you now lost that mastery?
It seems to me that you don't care anything about the MA, what you care about is simply fighting -- and there is nothing wrong with that.
What you seem to want to master are the individual "fighting movements" of certain arts. Just keep in mind that learning how to punch, kick, throw and such doesn't mean you now understand that MA.Thats why some people get pissed off when you mention mastering half a dozen MAs, when they have have spent a couple decades on one and are still not ready to close the book.

jfarnsworth

01-04-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by fissure
Hey bart, you'll get used to Judo- kid after a while.
Judo- kid, the reason people get on you is because you think that MA is simply about beating the crap out of other people. You figure that if you can choke out your Judo or Wrestling coach then you have "mastered" that discipline. If some other guy comes along and whips you have you now lost that mastery?
It seems to me that you don't care anything about the MA, what you care about is simply fighting -- and there is nothing wrong with that.
What you seem to want to master are the individual "fighting movements" of certain arts. Just keep in mind that learning how to punch, kick, throw and such doesn't mean you now understand that MA.Thats why some people get pissed off when you mention mastering half a dozen MAs, when they have have spent a couple decades on one and are still not ready to close the book.

That is one of the best posts I've read in a while. :asian:

Kirk

01-04-2003, 01:56 PM

Chase your dreams Judo Kid!

Jay Bell

01-04-2003, 02:13 PM

Judo-kid,

My laughter had nothing at all to do with your age. It had to do with anyone talking about mastering anything. Not matter what it is...martial arts, writing, basket weaving...there's never an end-point. You don't just one day wake up and say, "Wow...I'm done with Sambo, what's next?"

No one truly masters anything in my opinion. We can look to those who have gone and done long before us....and to us they are masters. But to themselves...are they?

jkn75

01-04-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
The guy who gos to my gym knows 4 styles of escrima and has been doing it a LONG time.
This does not make someone a master.

Healing what a load of crap, What the heck are you talking about. Hnmm i dont know if i should take you serously anymore. LOL
By the "lol" I hope you are kidding. This is an important function of any martial arts master. Someone who is a master can cause great harm with their techniques whether in teaching or challenges. Healing came about to repair the damage done. It can be as simple as knowing some basic first aid to the more advanced ki/chi healing.
Spiderman said it best, with great power comes great responsibility.
To truly be a master the point is not to harm, it is to help and heal.

I will show you all once i get in the ufc and prove my self you will all aww in wonder because i did it . Became the worlds greatest fighter and i will.
And what will this prove? That in an octagon with set rules, on one night, you beat someone else? Fantastic, what happens if you leave the arena and are jumped by a couple guys who take your money, your UFC belt and your car because you were busy gloating and not aware of your surroundings? And I already know your response "this would never happen to the greatest UFC fighter in history" but remember, there is still no great technique for stopping bullets.

If you do go into the UFC and have success, this will not "aww" the masses who respond to your posts and fall into your flame war traps. We know you want to go into the UFC and want to be successful. I want a million dollars and all the wanting in the world will not bring it.
If you want to awe martial talk come back in 3-4 years and say:
"Martial Talk, 3-4 years of hard training out on my own really showed me how difficult training, a full time job, bills and life are to balance. That it's hard to seek out the people who can teach me the techniques that I need to learn and that the advanced tecniques in (insert any style) are to learn. I learned the basics quickly but the subtlety's in the styles really reveal how different the styles are and although I would still like to master many styles, it's going to take me a lifetime"

That would awe me and many others. Good luck Judo-kid: Have goals and try to fulfill them.

arnisador

01-04-2003, 02:43 PM

When I started off at 14 I believed all sorts of mystical stuff about the arts. I'm glad a forum like this exists to help educate people to be more realistic but that takes time! One's dreams and goals will become more realistic as one learns more about the arts--it's a natural, iterative process.

Using the other person's age as an argumentation device is a sign of defeat, in my opinion. I grant that youthful enthusiasm may be at work here though it's more likely time in the arts (and the nature of those arts) than age per se that matters here. Still, I am a scientist and we have a saying in the sciences: Anyone who can't explain what they do to an 11 year old is a fraud. Is it different in the martial arts?

Bob Hubbard

01-04-2003, 02:55 PM

I believe it is possible to master -an- art. To know all that is know about it, and take it further.

Those individuals are very rare. People will mention Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Ed Parker, Remy Presas, Wally Jay, to name a few. I don't believe any of them considered themselves the 'master'. Humility prevented that.

For someone in their teens to say "I will master" is a very noble goal. Time will reveal the truth. Who are we to say?

JK may just become a master of the arts. He may also find enlightenment along the way, and see the true meaning behind the arts. He may understand the truth behind Bruce Lees words, that so many have missed.

He may also fall into the same trap so many of us have. A girlfriend, then a wife, then a family. That 40 hr job we all hate. Lawn care and vehicle maintainence, plus family obligations. How much time for training now? Let us now forget the injuries sustained when young, now slowly come back to haunt us in our growing years. The mind, is not as sharp as once it was, the body, not a limber nor quick to move.

Can he, or any of us do it? All things are possible. They are just not probable. Does he have 'it'? I can't say. His posts are full of the "bravado of youth". Ours the 'well of experience'.

Judo, you have stated you wish to be the best of the best, a master among masters. You have said this when you are but a few steps into the thousand step journey. We all wish you luck. Time will reveal to us if you have completed the never ending journey.

:asian:

Rich Parsons

01-04-2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Waking up every day

Eating a good balanced meal

Enjoying Life to its' fullest.

I wish you the best in your search. If I can 'master' one art in my life I will be pleased.

Rich
:asian:

First of Judo-Kid et al,

I did not know about an age when I made my comments. Second, I care not for age of the poster if they are coherent and I can understand them. Now for mastering multiple Arts go for it. When you accomplish it come back and let us all know. I would enjoy the conversation at that time. Be it tomorrow or in a life time. As for dreaming you can do it, I support your cause. Just remember, they teach you things in school so you can learn them to avoid the long trails of failure that others have gone before you.

As for My Post, I do not get up at the same time everyday, and I meant mastering Getting up and waking up. As for eating a good balanced meal, I meant that also, for I do not always do that. :) . As for enjoying Life to its' fullest I also meant that. I wish to enjoy what I do and how I do it.

As for you, I wish you the best in your mastery. I will make a comment if you look at Eskrima as weapon or stick art only, then you are not seeing the whole thing. As you learn more, more doors will open and you will see that it is not the same view you had before. This does not mean you could not do what you say, only that others that have traveled your desired path have seen it otherwise. The one who have gone before you. So do not throw away their comments.

Train Well

Rich
:)

Kirk

01-04-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I believe it is possible to master -an- art. To know all that is know about it, and take it further.

Those individuals are very rare. People will mention Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Ed Parker, Remy Presas, Wally Jay, to name a few. I don't believe any of them considered themselves the 'master'. Humility prevented that.

For someone in their teens to say "I will master" is a very noble goal. Time will reveal the truth. Who are we to say?

JK may just become a master of the arts. He may also find enlightenment along the way, and see the true meaning behind the arts. He may understand the truth behind Bruce Lees words, that so many have missed.

He may also fall into the same trap so many of us have. A girlfriend, then a wife, then a family. That 40 hr job we all hate. Lawn care and vehicle maintainence, plus family obligations. How much time for training now? Let us now forget the injuries sustained when young, now slowly come back to haunt us in our growing years. The mind, is not as sharp as once it was, the body, not a limber nor quick to move.

Can he, or any of us do it? All things are possible. They are just not probable. Does he have 'it'? I can't say. His posts are full of the "bravado of youth". Ours the 'well of experience'.

Judo, you have stated you wish to be the best of the best, a master among masters. You have said this when you are but a few steps into the thousand step journey. We all wish you luck. Time will reveal to us if you have completed the never ending journey.

:asian:

That's all I'm saying. He has a little while left before he has to
go out "into the real world". And having such a huge goal that
we all feel is unacheivable, if pursued, can yeild positive results.

It's important to have a passion in life, a dream, a goal. A heavy
drive in acheiving it can't be harmful.

Bob Hubbard

01-04-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Kirk
That's all I'm saying. He has a little while left before he has to
go out "into the real world". And having such a huge goal that
we all feel is unacheivable, if pursued, can yeild positive results.

It's important to have a passion in life, a dream, a goal. A heavy
drive in acheiving it can't be harmful.

I agree.

Wise man once say to me "Don't let anybody steal your dream".

Wise man make aver 1 Billion american dollars each year from his dream.

He start out soda pop delivery man... now have more soda pop than even Micro$oft can drink. :)

He did it despite all those who said he couldn't succede. That he wasnt smart enough, or strong enough, or popular enough.

If that is your dream, then go for it. In the end, you determine your final destination. Your attitude is directly related to your altitude. Train hard and train smart.

I'll add my 2 cents here...
what arts do I wish to master?
Wing Chun.
Sword Arts.

What do I have against me? Lack of quality instructiors within my reach, Age, and injury. Then again, Col. Sanders started KFC when he was in his late 70's and dead broke. So, who says age is a problem. :)

Good luck. :asian:

Master of Blades

01-04-2003, 08:07 PM

Great Post Kaith.......I think that pretty much sums up the whole matter :asian:

J-kid

01-04-2003, 09:06 PM

Well i believe you can become a master By mastering teaching ablity , all the skills , the technics and the grace of the art. I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine. I am christen and that would be against my relegion. But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not. I believe it takes a good time to master the arts but it can be done and i will do it. Best of luck to you all Judo-kid.

chufeng

01-04-2003, 10:18 PM

"I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine. I am christen and that would be against my relegion."

The spelling is Christian (note the capitalized first letter)...
...and you'd best go back and READ your scriptures...there is nothing in there about NOT believeing in qi...magic is NOT the same thing as a natural God-given ability (one that we all possess).

Good training and good luck.

:asian:
chufeng

J-kid

01-04-2003, 11:18 PM

Read the bible and yes there is, Just like where not suppost to bow.

arnisador

01-04-2003, 11:32 PM

See this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=732) for more on bowing and Christianity.

When I started reading the New Testament in the original Koine Greek it was quite a schock to see that the word God was not capitalized! It was a different language of course but it takes some getting used to at first.

Back on topic, Judo-kid mentions teaching ability as part of what it takes to be a master of an art--do people agree?

fissure

01-04-2003, 11:59 PM

Back on topic, Judo-kid mentions teaching ability as part of what it takes to be a master of an art--do people agree?

No. I think the ability to be a good teacher is a function of personality. I have seen probationary BBs, who were far better at communicating ideas and principals than I am. I have a hard time putting myself in the shoes of a novice - I have to fight the urge to become frustrated. I honestly don't like teaching ( I only do it to help my best friend, who owns and operates the school) and sometimes lead the class into things they may not be ready for. I often expect that someone should simply understand how a tech. should "feel", which is of course unrealistic for a new practitioner. Having said that, I in no way consider myself to be a master of anything. Maybe if I become one, my teaching will improve.

Rich Parsons

01-05-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by arnisador
See [url=http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=732]this thread[/url[ for more on bowing and Christianity.

When I started reading the New Testament in the original Koine Greek it was quite a schock to see that the word God was not capitalized! It was a different language of course but it takes some getting used to at first.

Back on topic, Judo-kid mentions teaching ability as part of what it takes to be a master of an art--do people agree?

Arnisador,

Even if you were to read the old Gospel in Greek, you would see that in some of the 'books' it is written 'god' and in othercases 'lord'. It is consistent, in that a book my one uses the word consistently.

Back to your regular scheduled topic. :)

Rich

:asian:

white belt

01-05-2003, 12:31 AM

Judo Kid,

There is the bow defined as a type of handshake greeting and there is the bow defined as submitting to anothers will. A Christian won't go to hell for shaking hands, last I checked anyway. If you bow to anothers ill intended will, or a different philosophys doctrine, then yeah, you are not trustworthy in that system of beliefs arena. If I say "Ship Pal Gae" to my Korean friends, they are blushing to say the least, but they are smart enough to know I mean the Martial Art. The "h" in Ship is supposed to be silent. If not, then it describes a certain sex act. Does that make me "evil"? Bottom line is, you just need to reexamine things, as you go along in life, like all of us. You make better sense of your surroundings and you find that the true thing we all must master is who/what we ourselves are. By mastering myself, all other doors then become better accessable. By focusing on a Martial Arts mastery, an illusion is used in the beginning, to help put us on the path of mastering ourselves. The titles become less important as you progress. Kind of like finally biting into the cereal after reading the colorful box. You want to someday "show us" by winning a title or titles. That is an attempt to seek others approval and admiration. That is not a bad thing on the surface, but somehow you have mistaken us for someone else who was once or still is important to you. Us. Perfect stangers. Doesn't that tell you that your very admirable load of energy needs a more applicable home or target? Who would that be? Only you know for sure. And from the fervor posted, they really must be important to you. Your training frantically is for more than you realize maybe?

You remember Jens Pulver's speech after he beat BJ Penn for the title? It was a classic case study of something called "projection". He broke down in front of the cameras and he rambled about his Father beating him when he was young and cried about not being accepted. Jens, in my opinion, was using his sparring partners and opponents as substitutes or surrogates in a deep seated need to fight back against his Father after the rejections and possibly gain some acceptance from him. The surrogates were all he had. I felt bad for that young man. He just won the UFC championship and I felt lucky I was not him. That void is now propelling him down a road of endless battles to regain something he never had, and possibly never will, from the wrong people. His Father's respect and love. Success isn't always a happy thing. It can be fueled by a bottomless supply of grief. Where does your fuel come from Judo Kid? Master yourself, be happy and don't overly concern yourself with our opinions. Hope you find that fuel source with your training.

white belt:)

Bob Hubbard

01-05-2003, 01:15 AM

We could argue the topic of religion and the arts. But thats been discussed as Arnisador indicated.

I read the bible...I just wonder if Judo uses the proscribed instrument (a wooden paddle) and goes the requisit distance out side of his town (I don't recall it) to evacuate his bowels as the good book indicates. (As Bill Cosby would say, get a thick bible, not the one ya 'found' at the Motel 8). Or has he adapted the 'relief' experience based on modern advances in sanitation?

There is literal, and there is intended. The intent of certain guidelines in there as just that, guidelines. And, I'm glad. Cuz, otherwise our subburbs would be more FOS than they currently are. :D

I suggest this topic be left go for now. Judo is set in his mindset that he can become an Uberman, and none of us 'magic users' can stop him.

Just for the record...being able to knock me on my ass don't impress me.. its too easy... Go walk on water...that impresses me. :D

rmcrobertson

01-05-2003, 02:34 AM

OK, in no particular order.

First off. People, I think, should be going to the martial arts to learn something more than how to fight. It's related to a question Larry Tatum frequently asks: " Well, by about brown belt you know all you really need to know aabout fighting and self-defense. So why does anybody keep training?"

Second. I kept training, and keep training, because I felt that I had to. And to try and become a better person.

Third. Is teaching necesssary to mastery? Hell yes. For one thing, doesn't teaching imply that you notice other people exist and are different? And if you don't teach, isn't it just a matter of developing your own ability to beat people up? isn't it just the development of more technology?

Next: in the martial arts--and in a weird but related way, in the study of the humanities--the idea is to become a better, more balanced person and to exemplify this to one's students and in one's society. Certainly that's ingrained into the Confucian ideals at the base of a lot of Japanese martial arts. For example, one might want to worry about one's school grades as well as one's "mastery."

Fifth: in kenpo, bow to things but salute people. (Arnisador, I loved that insane court suit. Methinks I smell a parent with an axe to grind...) I might add: bow to things that deserve respect, not to the merely fancy...

Sixth: mastery schmastery. Among other things, I think a master of the martial arts has a real humility--not because they're wearing a patched gi and showing off how humble they are (Golda Meir: "Don't be so humble. You're not that great.") but because they have a lively sense of wwhat idiots they are, how much there is to know, how fragile knowledge is.

Seventh: becoming a, "master of martial arts," implies more than individual study, however brilliant or willing to work one might be. It also implies being part of an ongoing tradition---and to be a real master, like Mr. Parker, you haave to be in the right place at the right time. Karl Marx: "men make history (sexist pig. his wife did his shirts while he screwed off in the British Museum...), but they do not make it from materials of their own choosing."

Eighth: ya wanna see a master? There's the one in the first year of, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," and then--I'm watching, "That's Entertainment"--there's Gene Kelly. When he died, "Time," ran a picture of him in what I firmly believe is the best cat stance I will ever see. The scene in, "American in Paris," where he gets up and walks around his apartment should be required viewing for every martial artist, along with Baryshnikov and Hines doing a martial arts routine choreographed by Twyla Tharp in, "White Nights."

That oughta do it.

RyuShiKan

01-05-2003, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well i believe you can become a master By mastering teaching ablity , all the skills , the technics and the grace of the art.

You have to be a student first, and even after you become a teacher you are still a student.
Take it from someone who has been teaching longer than you have been alive.

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine.

I didn’t either when I was about your age.

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I am christen and that would be against my relegion.

I think you mean Christian & religion, don’t you?
I’m Catholic and it’s not against mine. Do you think Chi training is some kind of religion?

Originally posted by Judo-kid
But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not.

When you make un-educated statements like this your respectability goes down.

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I believe it takes a good time to master the arts but it can be done and i will do it. Best of luck to you all Judo-kid.

While I can understand your desire and agree that you should try to accomplish that goal I have serious doubts about it happening.
You might become very good at one or all of the arts but to master any one of them to their fullest will take a life time. Take it from people that have walked the path before you.
My teacher is 75 years old, he has trained for about 60 years and says he is "maybe" only half way there.
Think about it.

Mike Clarke

01-05-2003, 06:26 AM

Hey Judo kid,

I hope you're paying attention here?

Mike.

ace

01-05-2003, 12:46 PM

And everyone's picking on Judo -Kid
Waz up with that.

Look Take Whats Best from each ART
Make it your own & follow your dream.

In Realty fighting it's not the art
But the person.

white belt

01-05-2003, 01:42 PM

Ace,

When people verbally get spit upon, it gets attention, malice intended or not. I feel that JK means well, but his displaying the shopping list of arts to master, to those with more experience, kind of says it all. Some responded by suggesting future frustration is inevitable for him if he does not take things more a step at a time. Those people were showing interest in him and his goals. We all stand a better chance of failing if we spread ourselves as thin as possible. That's all. I personally would like to see him happy and not leave the forum. His will is admirable.

On topic now. I plan on mastering the art of "self". It makes all else more possible.

white belt

Yari

01-05-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
The way to show your a master is to beat everyone else.

How many times?

I'm very curious to this thought.

So when you win your a master? And when you lose you are a...?

Who is going to teach you, because a person who is not a master (= the person who has beat everybody else), cann't learn you how.

Now don't get me wrong. Follow your idea, try it. I'm just intriged by your thought.

/Yari

Rob_Broad

01-05-2003, 02:35 PM

After reading your posts for quite some time, I suggest you look at mastering the english language if you plan on communicating beyond a 6th grade level. Then I would work on mastering reality. After that feel free to spend time in the arts trying to better yourself.

ace

01-05-2003, 02:37 PM

:soapbox: U say no names:mad:

arnisador

01-05-2003, 02:47 PM

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Rob_Broad

01-05-2003, 02:55 PM

Judo Kid you believe the ability to teach is part of mastery I will make you an offer to help get you on the road to mastery. Email me directly at Rob_Broad@yahoo.com and I will send you an ebook on teaching, for free no string attached. Your email must be able to accept attachments over 1.44 mb I would suggest a yahoo acct. You can ask several members here what the book is like because I have given to many people. I hope you take me up on the offer, it may help you more than you think.

Pyros

01-05-2003, 03:39 PM

I feel it is funny how we the western countries seem to feel mastery of a budo art is something godlike. My background info is mostly from Japanese arts, but five centuries ago it was common for a samurai to become a master in less than 10 years, some even in less than five. This was nothing weird, mastery simply meant you had learned all the techniques of the school (menkyo kaiden usually). Several of today's jujutsu styles were found by a person who mastered 1-5 different arts in relatively short time frame. Mastered in this context means, got their menkyo kaiden, that is, graduation scroll of the school. It simply meant he had been taught all techniques of the style.

Today, many arts teach all their techniques before 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever degree but keep giving upper degrees based on time-in-school, political or social achievements, etc. Many today only train 2-4 times a week. If you trained like in the old days, every day, you might easily learn all the techniques of a style that teaches it's last techniques at say 4th dan, in just a few years.

But to people who feel that the word "mastery" is loaded with some godlike powers, that is not reasonable. They feel either that it is impossible to master an art, or that mastery only comes after 50-100 years of active practice.

So the problem here is the definition of the word mastery. It seems (to me at least) that people here have differing definitions and thus argue about how and if you can achieve mastery.

Just my 2c.

ace

01-05-2003, 03:44 PM

To Train everyday is the way to go
This is my firm belif as well

cali_tkdbruin

01-05-2003, 05:19 PM

If the J-kid dreams of being a jack of all MA trades, so be it, it's his perogative and good luck to you son on your long and arduous journey. I hope you reach your goal. May the Force and the martial arts gods be with you.

Me personally, I just want to become proficient in my primary art. It would be presumptous for me to say that I could ever master it because there is so much to master. Never hurts to try though.
The study of ANY art is infinite... :asian:

bart

01-05-2003, 05:37 PM

Hey JK,

I am christen and that would be against my relegion.

Hmmm...wouldn't violence of any sort then be against your literal interpretation of Christianity? Like that other guy said "get a thick Bible" and do more than just the recommended reading.

But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not.

That's quite a misunderstanding of chi. I don't believe in the chi that blows out candles from another room and the chi that can inflict voodoo like damage to remote objects. That is hokey and I also don't think that's what chi is when used in the MA. Along with your list of arts JK, study up on kinesiology and see what a kinetic chain is. That is just plain physics. From my study chi is just a way of explaining kinesiology that predates modern science. Which by the way, physics may also be in conflict with your literal interpretation of Christianity. Chi is part of judo and jujitsu, so I hope you can open your mind to it, otherwise some instructors won't be able to teach you, as they use chi or qi as vocabulary for instruction.

Now on to your eskrimador...

This is what I asked:

What style of Eskrima does your "master" classmate practice? By calling himself a master, he must have some creds, what are they?

This is what JK answered:

The guy who gos to my gym knows 4 styles of escrima and has been doing it a LONG time.

What styles? How long is a long time? Who did he learn from? JK are you avoiding answering those questions? If you don't know, that's fine, just say so, but I'm curious about this "master".

Healing what a load of crap, What the heck are you talking about.

Healing is not like the D&D type of healing that you're probably misunderstanding it as. Rather, if you dislocate a guys shoulder, you know how to put it back in, or if you break a guy's finger, you know how to set it, or if you hit someone really hard in a large muscle, you know how to work the charlie horse out, or you kick a guys balls into his abdomen, you know how to drop him and pop them back out. Do you follow? This is mostly for use on your training partners. They would get to be in short supply if you injured them and didn't have some way of lessening the damage after the fact.

Anyway, like I said before, good luck to you JK. Aside from a lack of spell check and a tendency to knee jerk your answers you seem like you'll get where you want to be eventually.

H@pkid0ist

01-05-2003, 05:56 PM

I have a dry and sarcastic sense of humor to begin with. I am sorry if I personally came off as putting you or your dreams down in any way. I wasn't. I do believe that you can achieve high levels of proficiency in all the arts you stated. You can do what ever you set your mind and heart to. But, I personally do not believe that any art that is not stale can ever be mastered. The most we can ever hope for is understanding it, and being exceptional at it. As far as mastering one's self, I believe that this is an aver tougher goal, but not impossible. Also, it is a more noble goal.
Here is a quat from Nelson Mandela. Read it and take it to heart. I believe in it and encourage everyone else to. Good luck and aside from the sense of humor, anytime you ask I will be more than happy to give an honest and unbiast response.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that people won't feel insecure around you. We are meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not in just some of us; it's in all of us. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
Nelson Mandela 1994

God speed.

D.W.McCullar ( Still not master of my own damn house!!! )

arnisador

01-05-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Pyros
I feel it is funny how we the western countries seem to feel mastery of a budo art is something godlike. My background info is mostly from Japanese arts, but five centuries ago it was common for a samurai to become a master in less than 10 years, some even in less than five.

You make some good and interesting points. When the arts were used frequently in battle it was necessary to train someone to competence sufficient to protect their lives and/or take another's in a relatively short time. Who would want an army of 75 year old "masters"? We view it differently now--partially a do vs. jutsu thing.

RyuShiKan

01-05-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by arnisador
You make some good and interesting points. When the arts were used frequently in battle

Sorry but I always have a problem with this statement of arts used “battle”.

Which arts?
Judo……..nope.
Jujutsu……..nope
Karate…….nope
Taichi…….nope
Chi gung………nope
TKD………..nope
Using the above arts in "battle" would be like taking a knife to a gun fight.

These arts were used in battle:
Kenjutsu…..yes
Naginata……..yes
Yari………yes
Kyujutsu……..yes

Originally posted by arnisador
it was necessary to train someone to competence sufficient to protect their lives and/or take another's in a relatively short time.

Good point but since it was their job to train from childhood for 6~8 hours a day it shortened that training time considerably……also given the fact that most people didn’t live as long.
Another point to consider is the legal one. Dueling was still legal in those days and the loser more often than not died. Talk about motivation to train hard!
Now the winner of a tournament wins a cute little trophy and maybe a few bucks…..the loser gets to go home and lick his wounds to fight another day.

Originally posted by arnisador
We view it differently now--partially a do vs. jutsu thing.

99.99% of the worlds martial artists are “Martial Hobbiests” at best. Many MMA don't even view them as a "Do" anymore as well.

Pyros

01-05-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Karate…….nope
Taichi…….nope

Not to pick blood from my nose, but tai chi is well versed in weapons, including sword and staff tactics, just as kenjutsu and yarijutsu. Taichi has been used in real battlefields. Of course, the morning exercise taichi most often seen today has nothing to do with complete taichi training.

And karate... When it still was "The Chinese Hand", it was used in battle or at least what you'd call "real life combat", along with it's weapon systems (not "The Empty Hand" back then).

But of course, you did make a valid point otherwise. :cool:

RyuShiKan

01-05-2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Pyros
Not to pick blood from my nose, but tai chi is well versed in weapons, including sword and staff tactics, just as kenjutsu and yarijutsu. Taichi has been used in real battlefields. Of course, the morning exercise taichi most often seen today has nothing to do with complete taichi training.

True TaiChi does use weapons but they were incorporated into TaiChi and not part of the original art just as Okinawan Kobudo is practiced by many Karateka.

Originally posted by Pyros
And karate... When it still was "The Chinese Hand", it was used in battle or at least what you'd call "real life combat", along with it's weapon systems (not "The Empty Hand" back then).

Karate was used in "fist fights" and self-defense situations but would be impractical in a "battle".
It’s weapons systems were, as I stated above, “incorporated” into it’s training.

Qasim

01-06-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Sorry but I always have a problem with this statement of arts used “battle”.

Which arts?

.........
Jujutsu……..nope
.........
Using the above arts in "battle" would be like taking a knife to a gun fight.

These arts were used in battle:
Kenjutsu…..yes
Naginata……..yes
Yari………yes
Kyujutsu……..yes

Are you saying that jujutsu was not used on the battle field by the samurai? :erg:

I think a lot of Heads of Koryu systems would be interested to know that the systems that they inherited that were developed and passed on for hundreds of years were not in fact used in battle. :rofl:

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
Are you saying that jujutsu was not used on the battle field by the samurai? :erg:

Let me put it to you this way.........the other guy has a 3 foot long razor known as a katana and you are armed only with Jujutsu.......who do you think has a realistic chance?

Jujutsu was practiced by several schools of swordsmanship but was for intents and purposes not developed for doing battle in a war.

BTW, what is "Fuji" Ryu jujutsu?.........I can't seem to find it on the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Hozon kai list of authentic schools of Jujutsu.

Pyros

01-06-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
I think a lot of Heads of Koryu systems would be interested to know that the systems that they inherited that were developed and passed on for hundreds of years were not in fact used in battle. :rofl:

It was already obvious earlier that he uses the term 'battle' in a more constrained manner. That is why I substituted it with "real life combat" when I mentioned karate... :rolleyes:

Bob Hubbard

01-06-2003, 02:12 AM

Maybe putting it another way...

We train soldiers in 'unarmed' combat, yet we send that same soldier into the field armed with a rifle. How good would -any- system of empty-hand techniques be at 500 yards?

So, why do we teach them it? Because they may be in a situation where its all they have. Sneak attack, disarmed, outta bullets, cut off, covert op, too close.

Its not the -primary- weapon, but it is there, if needed.

Purhaps a 'particular' art as we know it today wasn't used in combat, but components of it or what it came from were. Many of the FMA masters did hone their arts in combat durring WW2. I'm positive that others did similar at different times in history.

:asian:

Qasim

01-06-2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
BTW, what is "Fuji" Ryu jujutsu?.........I can't seem to find it on the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Hozon kai list of authentic schools of Jujutsu.

Never said it would be found there, it's Gendai not Koryu and it is primarily influenced by Sosuishitsu Ryu Jujutsu which IS an AUTHENTIC Koryu Budo.

Fuji Ryu (http://www.fujiryu.com)

International Sosuishitsu Ryu Association (http://http://www.isja.com/)

Your highlighting and underlining of authentic tells me you wish to get off the subject by throwing attention my way, allow me to put us back on the subject. You claim that jujutsu was not used on the battlefield. Do you understand what the purpose of the unarmed skills were? This statement of yours surprises me as you are in Japan.

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Qasim

Your highlighting and underlining of authentic tells me you wish to get off the subject by throwing attention my way

Nope, just wanted to find out what it was since it was in your profile...........

Originally posted by Qasim
You claim that jujutsu was not used on the battlefield.

I would like to see some proof of how extensively it was used and how it would qualify as a “battlefield art”. I think it was an art that was developed as a “just incase” art………like just in case I lose one or both of my swords and can’t find anything else around to use as a weapon. JuJutsu could hardly compare to Kenjutsu as a “battlefield art”.

Originally posted by Qasim
We aren't talking about karate, we're talking about Jujutsu. Do you understand what the purpose of the unarmed skills were? This statement of yours surprises me as you are in Japan.

You see smart ass comments like this and the one before it tell me you're not really intyerested in discussing this on a polite level.

Qasim

01-06-2003, 03:29 AM

That's an interesting quote that you have up there from me. It isn't in my post.

You however need to provide proof that it wasn't effective in combat, and since you are in Japan, you should have TONS of material and history available to you. Serge Mol's book, Dan Draeger's books and Darrell Craig's are examples on jujutsu's history for those of us here and over there.

On the web there is also Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com) .

If it wasn't EFFECTIVE, it would not have survived hundreds of years. The Samurai didn't have a history of keep things that didn't work. Especially, when lives were at stake. :mst:

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
That's an interesting quote that you have up there from me. It isn't in my post.

It sure was before you edited that post at:
Last edited by Qasim on 01-06-2003 at 03:41 PM

Qasim

01-06-2003, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

It sure was before you edited that post at:
Last edited by Qasim on 01-06-2003 at 03:41 PM [/B]

You posted after my edit was already posted. It was up there for less than a minute as I'd decided not to give you anything else to steer away from the subject. Yet again you go off the subject.

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
You posted after my edit was already posted. It was up there for less than a minute as I'd decided not to give you anything else to steer away from the subject. Yet again you go off the subject.

First you start in with the snide comments and then deny posting the above then claim I am taking this thread off track.........get real.

KennethKu

01-06-2003, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
If the J-kid dreams of being a jack of all MA trades, so be it, it's his perogative and good luck to you son on your long and arduous journey. I hope you reach your goal. May the Force and the martial arts gods be with you.

Me personally, I just want to become proficient in my primary art. It would be presumptous for me to say that I could ever master it because there is so much to master. Never hurts to try though.
The study of ANY art is infinite... :asian:

EXACTLY !!

I aim for proficiency. Claim of Mastery is bordering presumptuous. :asian:

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by KennethKu
EXACTLY !!

I aim for proficiency. Claim of Mastery is bordering presumptuous. :asian:

Good Point.
With all the terms people are using like “proficiency” and “mastery” I wonder if we should define what they mean since they seem to mean different things to different people.

Qasim

01-06-2003, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
You posted after my edit was already posted. It was up there for less than a minute as I'd decided not to give you anything else to steer away from the subject. Yet again you go off the subject.

That look like a denial to anyone? It looks like I said that I edited my post immediately after. You've still not addressed the subject of this thread.

Yari

01-06-2003, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Good Point.
With all the terms people are using like “proficiency” and “mastery” I wonder if we should define what they mean since they seem to mean different things to different people.

Judo kid started the thread, and in that he defines what he's talking about. Remember it's his dicussion, and that he asked about which styles we would like to master.

I understand that mastry for him is to be able to beat up evebody else in that style.

He didn't define proficiency. We could ask him???

/Yari

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
That look like a denial to anyone? It looks like I said that I edited my post immediately after. You've still not addressed the subject of this thread.

No but this does.

Originally posted by Qasim
That's an interesting quote that you have up there from me. It isn't in my post.

Originally posted by Qasim
You've still not addressed the subject of this thread.

Is that so.......this is a couple of pages back incase you missed it.

quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid Well i believe you can become a master By mastering teaching ablity , all the skills , the technics and the grace of the art.

You have to be a student first, and even after you become a teacher you are still a student.
Take it from someone who has been teaching longer than you have been alive.

quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine.

I didn’t either when I was about your age.
quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid I am christen and that would be against my relegion.

I think you mean Christian & religion, don’t you?
I’m Catholic and it’s not against mine. Do you think Chi training is some kind of religion?

quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not.

When you make un-educated statements like this your respectability goes down.
quote: Originally posted by Judo-kid I believe it takes a good time to master the arts but it can be done and i will do it. Best of luck to you all Judo-kid.

While I can understand your desire and agree that you should try to accomplish that goal I have serious doubts about it happening.
You might become very good at one or all of the arts but to master any one of them to their fullest will take a life time. Take it from people that have walked the path before you.
My teacher is 75 years old, he has trained for about 60 years and says he is "maybe" only half way there.
Think about it.

KennethKu

01-06-2003, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Good Point.
With all the terms people are using like “proficiency” and “mastery” I wonder if we should define what they mean since they seem to mean different things to different people.

Proficiency : Competence derived from training and practice. eg. Proficient in the use of a language.

In normal usage, you can say you are proficient in the use of a language or you have mastered a language.

In the context used here, I believe we are referring to mastery as becoming the authority in a MA, ie to have mastered all the skills and knowledge involved and is at the leading edge at advancing the knowledge and skills boundary of that MA. Whereas, being proficient at it , means you are competent at it.

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Yari
Judo kid started the thread, and in that he defines what he's talking about. Remember it's his dicussion, and that he asked about which styles we would like to master.

I understand that mastry for him is to be able to beat up evebody else in that style.

He didn't define proficiency. We could ask him???

/Yari

Since “mastery” and “proficiency” are a bit ambiguous maybe we should give a brief but concise idea of what we consider them to be when we reply. Just so there is not so much confusion.

Qasim

01-06-2003, 05:01 AM

Judo-Kid,

Right now you have high goals, and there is nothing wrong with that. Please take heed to what everyone is saying to you. It is merely advise that will keep you from feeling that you've failed if you don't make it.

Of those fighting styles that you wish to study, choose one to put your all into, and try to master that. Don't stop training in the others, but take from them that which is best.

Good luck. :asian:

Master of Blades

01-06-2003, 05:02 AM

I can see only more arguments for this post.....:shrug:

On a more pleasant note, the more and more I read of Whitebelts posts the more I like you. Glad your enjoying MT :asian:

Qasim

01-06-2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Master of Blades
I can see only more arguments for this post.....:shrug:

On a more pleasant note, the more and more I read of Whitebelts posts the more I like you. Glad your enjoying MT :asian:

Only as long as we have posts by people who feel they don't have time to educate anyone and aren't getting paid to do it.

Yari

01-06-2003, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Since “mastery” and “proficiency” are a bit ambiguous maybe we should give a brief but concise idea of what we consider them to be when we reply. Just so there is not so much confusion.

I don't mind defining my veiw on mastery, or proficiency. But as everthing else we'll end up with just as many definitions as posts. It'll give us a main stream idea, but not an answer.

If we want to discuss J-K's thread, it's has to be on his definitions. We have to accept them. If we press our own definitions on to him, we only suceed in telling him what we want, and not accepting him for what he whants. If we want clarification, ask him.

If you still want my definition:

Mastery - to have the style become you, and you become the style

Proficiency - to have been taught all the techniques in a style (not nessarly understanding it)

/Yari

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 05:16 AM

Here is a definition I use that was written by Musashi and then borrowed by a bunch of others:

Basically it goes something like "it takes 10,000 days to be proficient in a style and a lifetime to master it."

10,000 days is about 27.3 years I meet very few people that have trained that long .....let alone in one art

Master of Blades

01-06-2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Qasim
Only as long as we have posts by people who feel they don't have time to educate anyone and aren't getting paid to do it.

Point taken, but if were going to try and educate this kid (What am I saying he's older then me! :rolleyes: ) Can we at least do it in a positive way and not argueing over who is teaching the right thing or not etc........Oh I give up, go ahead and do whatever :shrug:

J-kid

01-06-2003, 06:06 AM

oK PEOPLE

The whole point of this thread is woundering *IF YOU COULD MASTER A ART* or ARTS in my chase what arts would it be.

Not *You cant do that J-kid* This thread was not suppost to be about this but rather what arts you wish to learn to the utmost. Jeez

Master of Blades

01-06-2003, 01:44 PM

Coulda told us that before we spent all this time argueing :shrug:

cali_tkdbruin

01-06-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Here is a definition I use that was written by Musashi and then borrowed by a bunch of others:

Basically it goes something like "it takes 10,000 days to be proficient in a style and a lifetime to master it."

10,000 days is about 27.3 years I meet very few people that have trained that long .....let alone in one art

Okay, okay, forget about the J-kid for a moment. If we base our definitions of mastery and proficiency on the info provided by RyuShiKan then I just want to become competent in my primary art. How about that...:wink:

KennethKu

01-06-2003, 03:22 PM

I know this is definitely gonna make me the most unpopular person here, for saying this. Musashi was full of it. People who made those claims about taking long long time to learn a martial art were/are mostly interested in keeping newcomers at bay.

Since I will be needing fire support, I am taking the pre-emptive strike of bringing out this site.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/index.html

Knock yourselves out. It is unlike any martial art site you have seen.

Bob Hubbard

01-06-2003, 03:39 PM

Moderator Note:
This thread has drifted -way- off the original topic. Unfortunately, I can not find a place to make a split, so I have updated the title of this tread to reflect where the conversation has wandered to.

Please keep this within the realm of:
"What I intend to master.", "What is Proficiency" and "What is Mastery?/ a Master?"

I think the 2 are interrelated, hense the expanded focus of topic.

Thank you.
:asian:

RyuShiKan

01-06-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Okay, okay, forget about the J-kid for a moment. If we base our definitions of mastery and proficiency on the info provided by RyuShiKan then I just want to become competent in my primary art. How about that...:wink:

I think Uehara Seikichi of Motobu Ryu is one of the people I would most like to keep up with.
Uehara is about 99 years old this year and still teaches and trains!
To me that is one side of "mastery".
Also, at his age probably has a stronger grip than most people on this forum.......including myself!

Mike Clarke

01-07-2003, 02:42 AM

Musashi was full of it eh? [easy for you to say].

You know the problem many people have in the martial arts is that they think training has something to do with being better than someone else[thus being able to win a fight/trophy etc].
No matter how long they train their understanding never changes and so their mind stays the same as a bigginers, ignorant.

To think that one day you will 'master' an art [or a number of them], is to limit yourself to a fixed end of training, You reach the end the day you think you've mastered everything.

[I laugh every time I hear people say;"We took the best techniques from several styles and created are new devistating fighting form."]

If you just want to be a good fighter, why bother learning an 'art' ? just go out and fight, you'll soon get to know if you're any good at it or not?

After almost 30 years of training in karatedo, I can say with all humility that I am a better person than I was as a teenager.
Older [yes] wiser[maybe?] better able to deal with the way I handle problems [absolutely].

My students think I'm quite masterfull when I teach them, but my teachers in Okinawa think I've still got a long way to go to master anything!

Dosen't everyone know it's the journey, not the arrival, that's the important thing in all this?

Mike.

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Jay Bell
:rofl:

This whole thread is just comical....thanks for the good hearty laugh

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by KennethKu
Kids are encouraged to dream. Please don't tell them they can't. May be he will extract all the better part of each art and create his own system. Who knows? You got to be able to dream in order to create something out of impossibilities.

So the kid has a big mouth and somewhat of an attitude. Which 16 yrs old is not some what that way? :) Heck, they all learn, eventually. The same way we did! :)

Go ahead and chase your dream, Judo Kid. God Speed! Best of luck to you! You have a whole life in front of you. If only I could be 16 again...... :)
I remember when I wanted to kill everyone at everything, I would get so pumped up for all my matches

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well i believe you can become a master By mastering teaching ablity , all the skills , the technics and the grace of the art. I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine. I am christen and that would be against my relegion. But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not. I believe it takes a good time to master the arts but it can be done and i will do it. Best of luck to you all Judo-kid.
I am a Christian also, but what is your point?

What he basically meant by healing was the ability to do an opposite action to your action. The idea of a reaction to every action is found in the Bible, what is your point? You seem to misunderstand chi along with other things.

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 03:30 AM

Actually, TKD, the generic name, incorporated archery especially and it was originally meant to be a combat art and now, it's more of a hand-to-hand combat art.

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by KennethKu
I know this is definitely gonna make me the most unpopular person here, for saying this. Musashi was full of it. People who made those claims about taking long long time to learn a martial art were/are mostly interested in keeping newcomers at bay.

Since I will be needing fire support, I am taking the pre-emptive strike of bringing out this site.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/index.html

Knock yourselves out. It is unlike any martial art site you have seen.
That site is trash, the webmaster is trash. I talked to him online and his sources for information is so inaccurate (he even argued that Bo Jackson was 6'4" and grew three inches from the transition between major league sports) it's not even funny. His lack of knowledge in the arts, film, or anything for that matter.

His site is listed as a mcdojo at McDojo.com

KennethKu

01-07-2003, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by MartialArtist That site is trash, the webmaster is trash. I talked to him online and his sources for information is so inaccurate (he even argued that Bo Jackson was 6'4" and grew three inches from the transition between major league sports) it's not even funny. His lack of knowledge in the arts, film, or anything for that matter.

His site is listed as a mcdojo at McDojo.com

I have zero interest in Shotokan, Zero qualification in Shotokan and my view in that area would not worth a piss on. So I have no idea of his expertise in Shotokan.

However, everything else he talks about on his site, makes perfect sense. It rubs many people the wrong way. But he isn't wrong. If anything, he is right on the money regarding the politics and human frailty involved in dojo politics and practices. I don't see how you can disagree with that.

Any one who reads the site can judge for himself/herself.

KennethKu

01-07-2003, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Musashi was full of it eh? [easy for you to say].

You know the problem many people have in the martial arts is that they think training has something to do with being better than someone else[thus being able to win a fight/trophy etc].
No matter how long they train their understanding never changes and so their mind stays the same as a bigginers, ignorant.

To think that one day you will 'master' an art [or a number of them], is to limit yourself to a fixed end of training, You reach the end the day you think you've mastered everything.

[I laugh every time I hear people say;"We took the best techniques from several styles and created are new devistating fighting form."]

If you just want to be a good fighter, why bother learning an 'art' ? just go out and fight, you'll soon get to know if you're any good at it or not?

After almost 30 years of training in karatedo, I can say with all humility that I am a better person than I was as a teenager.
Older [yes] wiser[maybe?] better able to deal with the way I handle problems [absolutely].

My students think I'm quite masterfull when I teach them, but my teachers in Okinawa think I've still got a long way to go to master anything!

Dosen't everyone know it's the journey, not the arrival, that's the important thing in all this?

Mike.

Musashi pulled the 10000 days number out of his a$$. There is no proof nor anything to prove that must be the set length. MA is a fighting skill. It is a matter of physiological and psychological training and conditioning. You definitely do not need that long to produce a proficient boxer or a Muay Thai fighter, or any MA fighter. If you go to tell any athelete that it would take him/her that long to be proficient at his/her sport, you would get laughed out of town. No one in the sports field buy this BS except for people in the MA world. They believe this b/c their masters fed them this BS the same way their grandmasters fed them the same cr@p. :asian: And I say this with all due respect and no malice nor disrespect intended to anyone in particular.

Of course your knowledge and insight grow and advance with age, and you are better off than you were 27 years ago. No one denies that.

If you want to approach MA as a personal charater development or life philosophy or some ZEN nature journay of personal enlightenment, may be it takes 27 yrs. The thing is, chances are by then, you would have matured and mellowed and become a better person simply b/c you have grown wiser in age. Heck, you could be playing golf for that 27 yrs and still might have achieved that milestone. And MA might have squat little to do with it. People outside of the MA world do and often grow older and wiser in time.

Mr Clark, I read your articles and bio and you have my respect as a true MA master.

In "The secrets of Karate-do " you mentioned that training in classical Karate for self defence is futile and most blackbelts cannot fight. Correct me if I am wrong, that can only mean that it is not a fighting art in your view.

In "Is science killing the art of Karate?", I see your points about people piling scientific terms to decorate their martial art and sell it as scientifically based MA. But that is just cosmetic decoration and certainly does not pertain to making use of modern atheletic performance enhancement training methods. Hence, Science is NOT killing MA, rather snake-oil charlatans using fake scientific mumbo jumbo are polluting the art.

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by KennethKu
Musashi pulled the 10000 days number out of his a$$. There is no proof nor anything to prove that must be the set length.

He most likely did pull it out of his a$$…..but he did it after killing 60 people in duels by the time he was 30.
Maybe with all the fights to the death you have won you have a better number? (joking) ;)
However he wrote those words when he was about 60 years old and added that he now knew he didn’t win by skill and said it was most likely luck.

Originally posted by KennethKu
In "The secrets of Karate-do " you mentioned that training in classical Karate for self defence is futile and most blackbelts cannot fight. Correct me if I am wrong, that can only mean that it is not a fighting art in your view.

I don’t know about Mike’s view but in mine it would suggest that many…..too many dojo have gone the “way” of the business instead of the “way” of the defensive art.
Which produce “kuchibushi” (mouth warriors) that can talk a good game but can’t walk it like they talk it when things get going.

Case in point:
In my dojo we spar full contact with bogu gear. (see photo)
My enrollment drops after each time we do bogu. If I announce we will be doing bogu the next class only the serious folks show up.
Many of the people in my dojo come from other styles some as high a 5th dan so they are not all “beginners”.
One guy claimed to be the All Osaka Champion when he was in University. The guy couldn’t last 1 round of bogu.
Full contact sparring is not what I would call “real” Karate but it is a bit like Marine Corps boot camp…….it weeds out the nut cases & falsely brave…….

Mike,
Why is it so many of the “young guys” on these boards that haven’t trained very long seem to think they have all the answers and most of the “old guys” on these boards that have “been there and done that” seem to have only more questions than answers when they train………weird eh….

KennethKu

01-07-2003, 05:53 AM

Musashi was talking about the philosophical aspect of MA, IMHO. Musashi might have attributed his victory to luck than skills, but we all know better that the more skilled you are the luckier you get.

I understand your point. The fact is, 1+1 =2, it does not matter whether Einstein said so or the 3 stooges said so. It is still true. If something is true then it is true, irrespective of the messenger.

As regarding to sparring in full protective gears, I have being proposing that as the most effective training for the one training to attack. The response I got is "you don't need protective gears. What you need is to be able to control your strike. There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force" " Yes Maam. If you say so Maam."

If you run a school, you just have to cater to the need of your students. If they want to learn a performance martial art as sport instead of a combat martial art, they want what they pay for. Not going to argue with that.

Lastly, in reference to your remark addressed to Mr Clark regarding young bucks having solutions to every problem under the sun, I don't presume to offer answers here. Rather simply suggesting somethings different from the prevailing view, for further exploration. If I came across any differently, my apology. I certainly do not have answers. At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified.

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 06:19 AM

Kenneth,

I wasn’t referring to you in my comment to Mike Clarke.
It was about this thread specifically and most BBs in general.
Your answers seem to reflect what you think in a reasonable way (i.e. I can figure out where you are coming from instead of just ranting)
Nothing wrong with different opinions.

Originally posted by KennethKu

As regarding to sparring in full protective gears, I have being proposing that as the most effective training for the one training to attack. The response I got is "you don't need protective gears. What you need is to be able to control your strike. There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force" " Yes Maam. If you say so Maam."

I hear that ("There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force") from a lot of Japanese Karate teachers too. It’s a cop out.
Hell, I have enough control NOT to hit someone….that’s easy. (I have heard that called “dead kumite” 1 meaning is not spirit another is if you practice fighting that way you will die in the real world )
It’s when someone is out there trying to kick your butt and cause you bodily harm that you need “control”! Mental and physical.
How will that person know if they have put enough power into the strike? They won’t.
The All Osaka Champ. That I mentioned was a “tippy-tap” (no to light contact) competitor and was fast enough but had “0” power in his strikes………in fact most of the time I stopped blocking them because they didn’t hurt. He could neither deliver or take a punch……which is pretty common for people that practice the way he did.
Trial by fire is good sometimes………the bogu just keeps you from getting a broken nose or your teeth knocked out………it’s still hurts enough to let you know you were “tagged”.
It also keeps you honest with yourself.

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you run a school, you just have to cater to the need of your students.

I disagree with that idea. The first thing I tell my students is “I don’t teach ballet or social dance….I teach martial arts and with that there is a small amount of pain occasionally, nothing they can’t handle and I won’t ask them to do anything beyond their level.”
The serious ones stay and the people that probably would have wasted mine & the other students time leave. Which works out the best for both of us.

Yari

01-07-2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Why is it so many of the “young guys” on these boards that haven’t trained very long seem to think they have all the answers and most of the “old guys” on these boards that have “been there and done that” seem to have only more questions than answers when they train………weird eh….

I know it wasn't meant for me, but I'll jump in with my 2 cents.

Because when you've been there, done it, and bought the t-shirt, you don't want to buy anymore....

Or said differently:
For each step you grow, a double path grows infront of you.

/Yari

Kirk

01-07-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Case in point:
In my dojo we spar full contact with bogu gear. (see photo)
My enrollment drops after each time we do bogu. If I announce we will be doing bogu the next class only the serious folks show up.
Many of the people in my dojo come from other styles some as high a 5th dan so they are not all “beginners”.
One guy claimed to be the All Osaka Champion when he was in University. The guy couldn’t last 1 round of bogu.
Full contact sparring is not what I would call “real” Karate but it is a bit like Marine Corps boot camp…….it weeds out the nut cases & falsely brave…….

That's WAY COOL! How often do you get to do that???

Excuse my ignorance, but what's bogu gear, and wear can you
get it?

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Kirk
That's WAY COOL! How often do you get to do that???

My students can do it every class if they want.
We do 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rests between rounds.
In the summer those rests seem like about 1/2 second.

Originally posted by Kirk
Excuse my ignorance, but what's bogu gear, and wear can you
get it?

Bogu just means safety eguipment, it's the head gear, gloves and chest protectors.
I have included a better photo so you can see what it looks like.
My photo was not clear so I stole one from the net.

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 08:20 AM

Sorry about that my fat finger hit the send button.

You can buy the Bogu gear at many MA shops in Japan.
A member of our Assoc. is one of the few people that import it to the US.
I will try and find his website for more info.

chufeng

01-07-2003, 08:28 AM

KennethKu stated that he had "At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified."

You mean hypotheses don't you?

A theory is something that has been tested and reviewed by a number of people within a certain discipline...a hypothesis is a scientific "guess" that you are trying to prove...

As far as your comments about Musashi...you are right in that he was talking about an art as a Way of living...because he saw martial arts as a Way...that encompasses a philosophy, code of ethics, skill in the martial aspect, wsidom, and a certain spirtuality...

Since this thread is about "mastery," I think one should think about What is mastered (if anyone ever truly reaches that level)...
I submit that we train NOT to defeat others, but to destroy our own ego and cut to the heart of what's real...that doesn't happen quickly...So, Ken, your definition of "mastery" is different (more in line with Judo-Kid's) than RyuShiKan's, Mr. Clark's, mine, or Musahi's...(not that any of us even come close to the level Musashi achieved)...but thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.

:asian:
chufeng

chufeng

01-07-2003, 08:29 AM

:eek:

that would be wisdom and spirituality...
does this thing have spell checker???

chufeng

KennethKu

01-07-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan .......I disagree with that idea. The first thing I tell my students is “I don’t teach ballet or social dance….I teach martial arts and with that there is a small amount of pain occasionally, nothing they can’t handle and I won’t ask them to do anything beyond their level.”
The serious ones stay and the people that probably would have wasted mine & the other students time leave. Which works out the best for both of us.

My mistake . You are absolutely correct that you have the absolute right in deciding how your school is run and what you want to teach.

I was thinking in terms of serving the needs of the clients. But you are talking about the teaching of an art. If I were to operate a school, it would have different courses to meet different needs. But that is only a reflection of personal view, and has no value to anyone else.

KennethKu

01-07-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by chufeng
KennethKu stated that he had "At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified."

You mean hypotheses don't you?

A theory is something that has been tested and reviewed by a number of people within a certain discipline...a hypothesis is a scientific "guess" that you are trying to prove...

As far as your comments about Musashi...you are right in that he was talking about an art as a Way of living...because he saw martial arts as a Way...that encompasses a philosophy, code of ethics, skill in the martial aspect, wsidom, and a certain spirtuality...

Since this thread is about "mastery," I think one should think about What is mastered (if anyone ever truly reaches that level)...
I submit that we train NOT to defeat others, but to destroy our own ego and cut to the heart of what's real...that doesn't happen quickly...So, Ken, your definition of "mastery" is different (more in line with Judo-Kid's) than RyuShiKan's, Mr. Clark's, mine, or Musahi's...(not that any of us even come close to the level Musashi achieved)...but thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.

The term hypothesis is fine with me. It is only important to stress that I am open to be proven incorrect. Only the truth matters. Personal views are subjected to verification and scrutiny. I will toss my personal views out as soon as they are proven wrong. (I understand it is easier said than done. More often it is everyone knows I am wrong , except me :rolleyes: *sigh* ))

I would not bother with "mastery". It is an ideal state that actually does not really exist. How do you really determine mastery? Knowledge has no ending and no boundary. Exploring and discovering and improving, is a never ending process.

But you can achieve a level of competency where your fighting skill is reasonably good enough to prevail in combat. JudoKid defined mastery as being able to beat everyone, which basically means mastery is impossible according to his definition. So he is not exactly too far off , but unfortunately for him, he happens to think it is possible to defeat EVERYONE. *sigh* Even Karate Great Mas Oyama ran into a Tai Chi (sp?) guy he couldn't defeat. (Before readers get any great idea about Tai Chi, 99.999% of TaiChi practitioners have a hard time fighting their way out of a wet paper bag. If I offended anyone with this, my apology. It is no different than stating that 99.99% of Mcdojo cannot fight their way out of paper bag.)

I do consider MA as a fighting skill that can be taught scientifically and learn to be proficient at within a reasonable (practical) period of time. This basically focusing on the practical use of MA in military, law enforcement, personal security areas. You need to teach the personnels to be proficient in H2H combat within short and practical time. You can't seriously be talking about 10000 days there. :) And here, MA is more a fighting skills, than a way of life.

I try to live my life as a good person (and hope that I am successful). There is no need for MA to shape my life philosophy. I found mine long ago. Some people find their philosophy in MA and pursue MA as a way of life. I have nothing but the highest respect for that. But that is NOT the only way MA is suppose to be, neither must everyone be required to pursue MA in that manners.

Pyros

01-07-2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Actually, TKD, the generic name, incorporated archery especially and it was originally meant to be a combat art and now, it's more of a hand-to-hand combat art.

I thought TKD both as a name and a curriculum are very new inventions?

Kirk

01-07-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
My students can do it every class if they want.
We do 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rests between rounds.
In the summer those rests seem like about 1/2 second.

No doubt! I fully admit a 3 minute round would knock my *ahem*
in the dirt. But I'd love to push that until I did make it.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Bogu just means safety eguipment, it's the head gear, gloves and chest protectors.

In your opinion .. how do you think this equipment would fair
against FMA sticks? The assistant instructors at my school said
they were looking for equipment like this, for regular sparing, and
stick sparring.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You can buy the Bogu gear at many MA shops in Japan.
A member of our Assoc. is one of the few people that import it to the US. I will try and find his website for more info.

Yes, please do. I'm very interested.

Is this type of sparring common over there?

Yari

01-07-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Kirk

In your opinion .. how do you think this equipment would fair
against FMA sticks? The assistant instructors at my school said
they were looking for equipment like this, for regular sparing, and
stick sparring.

Try and PM knifeman.dk . I know they use this kind of equipment in their dojo.

/Yari

Kirk

01-07-2003, 12:30 PM

Is it the same stuff as found here?

http://www.mitsuboshi-web.com/english/shorinji/index.html

rmcrobertson

01-07-2003, 02:32 PM

Does the Bogu gear have any of that heavy armor below the belt?

Mike Clarke

01-07-2003, 03:57 PM

Gee this conversation has taken off hasn't it!!!!

Kenneth, in my article I was expressing the view that many groups today pass people out as dan grades that don't have a good understanding of their system, they are simply victims of someones need to make a living from karate.

As for classical karate training not being good for self defence?
Again my point was addressing the way karate is taught in many places these days. Hoshin, purpose, this is key to understanding the art you're involved in. We have many people today who don't understand this and seem to think that training in karate is a 'one size fits all' answer to everything from character building to fighting off a thug in a dark ally.

My point was, if you want karate to work in a real fight, this has to be part of your purpose for going to the dojo and so you need to train with this in mind. If you're not bothered about such things, then you should be focussed on other aspects of the art.
But thinking one way and training another will leave you with very little in either camp.

RyushinKan,
Young bulls and old bulls. Youth,as they say, is often wasted on the young. But then this is nature I guess?
Also, some folk think that because this is being played out on a computer in their own home or office, they don't have to have the same good manners they would show at training. Hence the 'attitude' we see from some.

Mike.

cali_tkdbruin

01-07-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Pyros
I thought TKD both as a name and a curriculum are very new inventions?

FYI, you are correct sir, the name Taekwondo is a relatively new term for our martial art. This moniker was created in the mid 1950's. In short, TKD merged several kwons or Korean martial art schools into one unified Korean style...:asian:

fringe_dweller

01-07-2003, 06:57 PM

(/sage voice on)

Desiring to master an art is of no disservice to any - claiming to have mastered an art is another matter.

(/sage voice off)

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Kirk
No doubt! I fully admit a 3 minute round would knock my *ahem*
in the dirt. But I'd love to push that until I did make it.

You never really get used to it.....and it usually is not that "fun", but it does keep you humble and is one HELL of a work out.

There used to be a T-Shirt some of our Assoc. Members had.
It said:
Bogu Kumite: No Winners, No Losers.....on survivors.

Originally posted by Kirk
In your opinion .. how do you think this equipment would fair
against FMA sticks? The assistant instructors at my school said
they were looking for equipment like this, for regular sparing, and
stick sparring.

It works very well.
We use it to spar full contact with Bo, Jo, Tanbo (looks like two Escrima Sticks) and so on.

Originally posted by Kirk
Yes, please do. I'm very interested.

Is this type of sparring common over there?

The Bogu on that link is not the same.
The plastic stuff is not good for any kind of weapons sparring.

Rainman

01-07-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You never really get used to it.....and it usually is not that "fun", but it does keep you humble and is one HELL of a work out.

There used to be a T-Shirt some of our Assoc. Members had.
It said:
Bogu Kumite: No Winners, No Losers.....on survivors.

I disagree. It is quite fun. Injuries are not, that's why we have doctors and chiropractors. Allowing subconscious and concious states to converge in an action reaction arena is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

J-kid

01-07-2003, 10:06 PM

Intresting posts, Yet i still have the belief that anyone can master anything. If anyone tells you diffrent there telling you wrong. Maybe its because there afraid or mislead themselves.

Lets break down mastering,
in my previous post i noted what i believe it is,
Lets see what other people think.

My veiws are if you have all the skills down perfectly, have skill also grace, But most of all i think you should have the funess of the art.

I dont think age has much to do with it.
Also i think chi is a load of Horse...*****
Prove to me its real if you can.... ( a challeng to anyone)

But sure let a rip what do you guys think mastering means.

PS this thread really went crazy, I kind of like it.

RyuShiKan

01-07-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

RyushinKan,
Young bulls and old bulls. Youth,as they say, is often wasted on the young. But then this is nature I guess?
Also, some folk think that because this is being played out on a computer in their own home or office, they don't have to have the same good manners they would show at training. Hence the 'attitude' we see from some.

Mike.

That reminds me of a scene from the movie “Colors”.

Two bulls are sitting up on a hill and down in the valley they see a bunch of cows.
The young bull says: “hey, let’s run down there and "get" one of those cows”
To which the older bull says: “no, let’s walk down and "get" them all”

Matt Stone

01-07-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
FYI, you are correct sir, the name Taekwondo is a relatively new term for our martial art. This moniker was created in the mid 1950's. In short, TKD merged several kwons or Korean martial art schools into one unified Korean style...:asian:

Totally off topic, but it is my understanding that in all actuality, originally TKD was nothing more than "Koreanized" Shotokan Karate-do...

Perhaps over the years (after divesting itself of the Shotokan kata and instituting the practice of "homegrown" forms) it has become its own legitimately Korean martial art, its original roots are really in Japan.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Matt Stone

01-07-2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
(/sage voice on)

Desiring to master an art is of no disservice to any - claiming to have mastered an art is another matter.

(/sage voice off)

Well said.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Matt Stone

01-07-2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Intresting posts, Yet i still have the belief that anyone can master anything. If anyone tells you diffrent there telling you wrong. Maybe its because there afraid or mislead themselves.

Well, again, it is a question of semantics... What does "master" mean to the person who is either using or hearing that word? If you mean to become physically proficient in the performance of a given technique or a limited body of knowledge, then sure. That can be accomplished, and likely within a relatively short period of time. But there are many others who hear that word and feel it communicated far more than simple technical proficiency. It is this elusive quality of the term that takes a lifetime or more to develop, hence the reaction that "mastering" many styles may well be virtually impossible, since "mastering" one would take a lifetime.

My veiws are if you have all the skills down perfectly, have skill also grace, But most of all i think you should have the funess of the art.

Skills, grace and what? What is "funess?" Do you mean "finesse?" I'm not trying to be uppity and make you seem ill educated, just trying to figure out what word you are trying to use... Not everyone is an accomplished writer (nor am I).

I dont think age has much to do with it.

Well, as age is the passage of time, and skills like you describe take time to develop, and development of certain physical skills is possible while young though hampered and constrained by the transition from childhood through puberty/adolescence and into adulthood (as an example, think about Oksana Baiyoul... she was an Olympic champion as a child, but when she started to mature her skills went all to hell... it was very difficult for her, as a young adult, to reclaim even a portion of her prior ability), age has much to do with the maturing of physical ability. A child blackbelt is just that - a child. There is the possibility that that child will be better enabled to develop skill through adolescence if they train very hard, but in general the changes from child to adult will get in the way of many things (ya just can't do some of the same things when you start getting a little older! :D ). But a person with 20 years of training under their belt by age 25 really means they probably have only about 5 - 8 years of really applicable training time, since they have only had that body for that long...

Age also begets wisdom based on experience. Let's not forget that age and experience will always beat youth and exuberance...

Also i think chi is a load of Horse...*****
Prove to me its real if you can.... ( a challeng to anyone)

I extended the invitation to you once before quite some time back for you to come up and check out the Yiliquan group in Puyallup. Email me at wolfden68@hotmail.com if you are interested in coming out and seeing what we do and how we do it. We will demonstrate what qi really is, not the mystical Darth Vader stuff folks like to believe in (which is wholly untrue).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

arnisador

01-07-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
that would be wisdom and spirituality...
does this thing have spell checker???

Spellchecker info.:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3361

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
He most likely did pull it out of his a$$…..but he did it after killing 60 people in duels by the time he was 30.
Maybe with all the fights to the death you have won you have a better number? (joking) ;)
However he wrote those words when he was about 60 years old and added that he now knew he didn’t win by skill and said it was most likely luck.

I don’t know about Mike’s view but in mine it would suggest that many…..too many dojo have gone the “way” of the business instead of the “way” of the defensive art.
Which produce “kuchibushi” (mouth warriors) that can talk a good game but can’t walk it like they talk it when things get going.

Case in point:
In my dojo we spar full contact with bogu gear. (see photo)
My enrollment drops after each time we do bogu. If I announce we will be doing bogu the next class only the serious folks show up.
Many of the people in my dojo come from other styles some as high a 5th dan so they are not all “beginners”.
One guy claimed to be the All Osaka Champion when he was in University. The guy couldn’t last 1 round of bogu.
Full contact sparring is not what I would call “real” Karate but it is a bit like Marine Corps boot camp…….it weeds out the nut cases & falsely brave…….

Mike,
Why is it so many of the “young guys” on these boards that haven’t trained very long seem to think they have all the answers and most of the “old guys” on these boards that have “been there and done that” seem to have only more questions than answers when they train………weird eh….
The 10,000 days was just a metaphor for meaning it takes a long time to be very good at it.

Just like when you say you did it a hundred times, or a million times.

So I think both of you are right.

MartialArtist

01-07-2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Pyros
I thought TKD both as a name and a curriculum are very new inventions?
TKD was a name invented around the 50's, but it was a name that the Korean MA schools went under to be more "united" and since it was after the Japanese left...

But, jidokwan and the other stuff like the hwa rang chivalry is generally viewed by most people under the name TKD.

However, the roots of TKD (although there was a lot of heavy Japanese influence in the TKD) go way back.

http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

MartialArtist

01-08-2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Intresting posts, Yet i still have the belief that anyone can master anything. If anyone tells you diffrent there telling you wrong. Maybe its because there afraid or mislead themselves.

Lets break down mastering,
in my previous post i noted what i believe it is,
Lets see what other people think.

My veiws are if you have all the skills down perfectly, have skill also grace, But most of all i think you should have the funess of the art.

I dont think age has much to do with it.
Also i think chi is a load of Horse...*****
Prove to me its real if you can.... ( a challeng to anyone)

But sure let a rip what do you guys think mastering means.

PS this thread really went crazy, I kind of like it.
Look at the dictionary term for mastery.

Possession of consummate skill - meaning you have to be perfect in almost every way. It is pretty much impossible to master one art nonetheless multiple arts in a dozen lifetime.

You are using some pep talks to support your ideas. And also, you're interpreting the pep talks in the wrong way. What your instructor/trainer/coach is telling you is you can become good, but pretty much, you can't master anything in reality although it seems some reach a very high level of skill that is like mastery.

Sorry, but life doesn't go that way. It is true if you give enough effort and heart, you can pretty much do anything you want. That includes becomming a state champion in wrestling in a couple of years, or making a self-improvement.

However, I can not say that you can be a state champion in wrestling after only a year of experience. That is just not possible, not enough time. 1 out of a million and in a state where wrestling is not big, then yes, but you just don't have enough time or experience to learn everything and burn it down into your CNS and develop it as instinct.

Or, no matter how hard you try, I can say that you will never be in the NFL.

What you're saying in mastering multiple arts is like saying you will be an all-star (meaning MVP or being in the Pro Bowl at least, or the All-Star game, etc.) in football, basketball, soccer, sprinting, swimming, and baseball.

Mastery means you can't really improve on your technique or skill any longer, and that's not true. Everyone in the NFL improves daily, so they didn't even master ONE sport.

Pyros

01-08-2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by MartialArtist
http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

Well I read that site earlier and found lots of it quite suspicious. Then I asked around and my suspicions were confirmed. Personally I don't trust much of stuff written on http://www.hwarangdo.com/ but that's my choice.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by MartialArtist
TKD was a name invented around the 50's, but it was a name that the Korean MA schools went under to be more "united" and since it was after the Japanese left...

But, jidokwan and the other stuff like the hwa rang chivalry is generally viewed by most people under the name TKD.

However, the roots of TKD (although there was a lot of heavy Japanese influence in the TKD) go way back.

http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm

The Koreans may have incorporated Hwarang principles into TKD but those kata they “originally” did in TKD came from good old Japanese Shotokan. They may have re-invented TKD history to make it more “homegrown” but there is too much evidence that points to Japan as being the “birth place” of TKD.
I looked at the URL you enclosed.
I like the photo of the Korean guy jumping in the air with the Japanese katana.
Also, did you notice there seem to be more than a few Japanese arts mentioned on there……………

However, I do like this on the training page:

VANITY:
"Large egos are carried by small minds."
It is easy to be vain towards those who know less. But the Hwa Rang Do® student must realize how little one really knows. There are over 4,000 techniques in Hwa Rang Do®. Assuming a student learned a new technique every day, it would still take 10 years to master them. Such a study course is not likely, but it is to illustrate that when a fish is in a cup, the cup seems to be the whole world. We are only a microcosm in an infinite universe.

fissure

01-08-2003, 12:37 AM

I started training in TKD many yrs. ago, after beginning my MA adventures with Judo and Shotokan. At the time I was forced to switch from Karate to TKD, many dojang still used their "original" poomse/kata in addition to the new Palgwae or Taeguek forms. Ryushikan is correct, these "original" TKD forms were the same as Shotokan's. Heian - Pinan, Bassai Dai- Bal Sek, Meikyo(Ro hai) - Lo hai.If you look at the TKD of 20 yrs. ago, before Olympic sparring was introduced, the classes were the same as Shotokan. Personally I don't see the shame in admitting the roots of TKD - but then again I'm not Korean!

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by fissure
I started training in TKD many yrs. ago, after beginning my MA adventures with Judo and Shotokan. At the time I was forced to switch from Karate to TKD, many dojang still used their "original" poomse/kata in addition to the new Palgwae or Taeguek forms. Ryushikan is correct, these "original" TKD forms were the same as Shotokan's. Heian - Pinan, Bassai Dai- Bal Sek, Meiko(Ro hai) - Lo hai.If you look at the TKD of 20 yrs. ago, before Olympic sparring was introduced, the classes were the same as Shotokan. Personally I don't see the shame in admitting the roots of TKD - but then again I'm not Korean!

I have yet to meet a Korean that will say Korea got TKD from Japan. But I guess it's with good reason too….the Japanese occupied Korea on at least 2 occasions for long periods of time and treated them like dirt.

fissure

01-08-2003, 12:46 AM

Don't forget that TKD (especially the Olympic competition side) is big business. Making TKD a completely Korean thing can only be good for them!

fissure

01-08-2003, 12:47 AM

How the hell did this thread end up talking about TKD anyway?

J-kid

01-08-2003, 02:05 AM

You make a few good points, Yet are thinking is very diffrent. It seems alot of what you are saying is closed minded and your deafeting yourself befor you start. You know there are some good sayings you should take into good consideration, Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small. But if you never try and never open up your mind You wont get anywhere. Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form. I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything. And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.

To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid

To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

Uhhh No. that’s not it at all.
In fact that is not even how a well trained martial artist behaves, especially one that is on the way to “mastering” anything.

Judo-Kid,

I think you should go to where Yiliquan1 trains and ask him to show you what he is talking about........feeling is believing

white belt

01-08-2003, 02:25 AM

The arts I want to master.

By white belt

1) Brickin'(c)
2) Kimchi Gong
3) Magnet Qi Gong
4) Whatever Dillman is drinking.
4) Finding TKD discussions when they try to avoid me.
5) Growing my hair back.

:)

MartialArtist

01-08-2003, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
You make a few good points, Yet are thinking is very diffrent. It seems alot of what you are saying is closed minded and your deafeting yourself befor you start. You know there are some good sayings you should take into good consideration, Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small. But if you never try and never open up your mind You wont get anywhere. Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form. I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything. And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.

To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.
I find it funny that you point things out but never back them up.

What art did I not approve of? Again, you are making yourself look like a fool by trying to discredit others, especially when you can't back them up.

If at all, the only thing I disapproved was commercialized MA for combat which can includes every art, and the idea of complete mastery.

Matt Stone

01-08-2003, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form.

What? The language we are all speaking is comprised of words, whose proper use and definition are collected in dictionaries... The dictionary form usage is the proper usage of any word - trying to argue against that makes little sense.

I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything.

This is the kind of mastery that many folks on here thusfar have implied comes with lifelong martial arts training, and is unattainable by chasing after "mastery" in multiple arts (since it is unlikely that even in one lifetime it would be reached in one art). Developing a will to win doesn't necessarily indicate "mastery," only a strong, indomitable spirit.

Some points on the "philosophical" mastery -

*If you think you are a master, you aren't.
*Mastery isn't what you think it is.
*The real master doesn't proclaim himself as such; likely, he would deny such a possibility even exists.
*A master exists to serve others, to help others along the path. Any deeds done out of self-interest void the perception of mastery.

And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.

Sure. Anything is possible. But are they wrestling "masters?" Far from it. They would still have much to learn, and ultimately a competitive win does not mean that they are unbeatable nor invincible - just that on that day, against that opponent, they triumphed. Tomorrow is another day.

Interesting quote:

"Today is victory over the self. Tomorrow is a victory over lesser men."

Think on that.

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible.

Again, every person is an individual. We have all been discussing broad, brush stroke generalities. But those individuals capable of such amazing feats are few and far between, which is why there are so few Olympic champions, but there are droves and droves of Olympic hopefuls. Big difference between those who hope and those who can...

Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves,

No. That is the basic definition of all motion. Your brain sends a neural impulse to the muscles to move, and they do.

Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

Again, no. In order to make use of qi, it is important that the mind not be clouded with strong emotions such as anger or fear... That doesn't mean they aren't present, simply controlled thanks to longterm training. What you are talking about is an adrenaline fueled short term pump brought about by extreme emotional distress. Big difference.

Again, you are invited to come out to where we train and see for yourself. Hell, I'll come pick you up if need be...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

MartialArtist

01-08-2003, 02:56 AM

Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small.

Have you been out in the real world?

Many people tried as hard as they could to get a million dollars from working 12 hours a day and studying day and night but they still can't reach it.

If you weren't born with natural ability to be fast and running, then you will never make it past high school track.

For smaller goals, yes, you can do them if you try. An example would be, "I want to be able to sense pressure on the mat so I don't get pinned" or "I want to improve my awareness to improve my blocking, counter-offensive, etc."

You know how many people wanted to be president? No matter how hard they tried, and how much money they spent, they did not become president.

You need to step out in the real world. Things don't always go your way, no matter how hard you try. You can always reach goals on self-improvement like "I want to be faster" but that won't make you fast.

Goals like "I want to make reigonals" is a realistic goal while still aiming high. However, "I want to be an Olympic sprinter and shatter the record" is impossible unless you were born with great genetics.

What you are saying is like knowing perfect grammar, knowing all the rules of the language, knowing the definition of every word, knowing all literary works of the language, able to cite all literary devices in every work of literature, etc. Is that even possible for one language? No, no matter how hard you try, it is not possible. People try all the time, but we do not have the capability nor the time to master even one language.

What you're saying is you want to master English, Spanish, French, Mandarin, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Portugese, Sanskrit, and German.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 02:58 AM

Zen Priest asks himself a question:

Master, are you there?

Same Zen Priest answers himself:

Yes, I am here.

MartialArtist

01-08-2003, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What? The language we are all speaking is comprised of words, whose proper use and definition are collected in dictionaries... The dictionary form usage is the proper usage of any word - trying to argue against that makes little sense.

This is the kind of mastery that many folks on here thusfar have implied comes with lifelong martial arts training, and is unattainable by chasing after "mastery" in multiple arts (since it is unlikely that even in one lifetime it would be reached in one art). Developing a will to win doesn't necessarily indicate "mastery," only a strong, indomitable spirit.

Some points on the "philosophical" mastery -

*If you think you are a master, you aren't.
*Mastery isn't what you think it is.
*The real master doesn't proclaim himself as such; likely, he would deny such a possibility even exists.
*A master exists to serve others, to help others along the path. Any deeds done out of self-interest void the perception of mastery.

Sure. Anything is possible. But are they wrestling "masters?" Far from it. They would still have much to learn, and ultimately a competitive win does not mean that they are unbeatable nor invincible - just that on that day, against that opponent, they triumphed. Tomorrow is another day.

Interesting quote:

"Today is victory over the self. Tomorrow is a victory over lesser men."

Think on that.

Again, every person is an individual. We have all been discussing broad, brush stroke generalities. But those individuals capable of such amazing feats are few and far between, which is why there are so few Olympic champions, but there are droves and droves of Olympic hopefuls. Big difference between those who hope and those who can...

No. That is the basic definition of all motion. Your brain sends a neural impulse to the muscles to move, and they do.

Again, no. In order to make use of qi, it is important that the mind not be clouded with strong emotions such as anger or fear... That doesn't mean they aren't present, simply controlled thanks to longterm training. What you are talking about is an adrenaline fueled short term pump brought about by extreme emotional distress. Big difference.

Again, you are invited to come out to where we train and see for yourself. Hell, I'll come pick you up if need be...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
You also bring up a good point...

Most Olympic athletes may win the gold medal one day, while not even being ranked in the next major competition a few months later.

In wrestling, it happens all the time. I've seen guys who are on the national level and get pinned by a mystery person.

Next tournament, once the mystery man is known for pinning the national guy, the national guy whoops on him.

Even look at Greene, he has his bad days at sprinting.

KennethKu

01-08-2003, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Zen Priest asks himself a question:

Master, are you there?

Same Zen Priest answers himself:

Yes, I am here.

A dozen bottles of cheap beer can bring you to Zen then.

Yari

01-08-2003, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Kirk
Is it the same stuff as found here?

http://www.mitsuboshi-web.com/english/shorinji/index.html

Sorry counldn't answer before (different time zone).

Nope, nothing like it. But I think this could be interessting for them.

If I remember correctly they use a combination of a Kendo helmet, and a TDK "armor". The stick is hard PVC with fome around it. But knifeman.dk would know better.

/Yari

Angus

01-08-2003, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Musashi was full of it eh? [easy for you to say].

You know the problem many people have in the martial arts is that they think training has something to do with being better than someone else[thus being able to win a fight/trophy etc].
No matter how long they train their understanding never changes and so their mind stays the same as a bigginers, ignorant.

To think that one day you will 'master' an art [or a number of them], is to limit yourself to a fixed end of training, You reach the end the day you think you've mastered everything.

[I laugh every time I hear people say;"We took the best techniques from several styles and created are new devistating fighting form."]

If you just want to be a good fighter, why bother learning an 'art' ? just go out and fight, you'll soon get to know if you're any good at it or not?

After almost 30 years of training in karatedo, I can say with all humility that I am a better person than I was as a teenager.
Older [yes] wiser[maybe?] better able to deal with the way I handle problems [absolutely].

My students think I'm quite masterfull when I teach them, but my teachers in Okinawa think I've still got a long way to go to master anything!

Dosen't everyone know it's the journey, not the arrival, that's the important thing in all this?

Mike.

Amen. Great post! Kind of ironic that K² responded by calling you a karate master. :D

I think that there have been a LOT of good points brought up throughout the entirity of the thread. Ryushikan sticks out in particular (obviously Mike Clarke above as well, though he didn't participate as vigorously). Sorry if I didn't mention anyone who I thought brought up a good point, but I'm tired! The thread, however, is definitely a good read despite some of the unnecessary bickering.

Too many people, regardless of the subject (be it MA, career, etc etc), focus solely on the end result or the final goal when looking towards the future. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, the means is FAR more important than the end, because what you put into the means wholly determines what you get out of it. However, it seems that the means as somewhat ignored, especially by young people, because few are patient enough to wait for the end goal, let alone work hard for it the entire time. It can get quite exhaustive and tedious, both mentally and physically (hopefully), knowing that what you won't get what you're working for a long time in the future. I can't say that I'm not guilty of it myself, being that I'm young too, however I feel overwhelmed enough by what I'm studying at the moment such that I can't imagine how many lifetimes "mastery" would require. I like that. Sure, it sounds great to be 9th dan in 14 styles and 12th dan in your own personal 40-word long fighting system, but I think it's great to be a black belt, and learning. All I want to do is be both learning and proficient in what I'm learning, and I can see that that's a LONG road that I'm travelling, and I wouldn't have it any other way. However, the only thing I can do is take it step by step, doing my damndest to be the best I can FOR ME at what I do at the moment. No, I'll never be a "master" or will I ever be 10th dan, but I couldn't care less. There's so incredibly much in a single art that I could spend a lifetime refining each technique attempting to get closer and closer to "perfection", if such a thing exists (in reality, it doesn't). If I'm proficient in my art, progressively learning and becoming better (even if it's finding small things in the same motions, its still learning), then I'm great. And I know I'm not alone in this, but too many are focused on being the renaissance men of martial arts, and I don't think it's necessary. Why have a basic, superficial understanding of 15 techniques from 150 arts when I can have an in depth, more whole understanding of 20 from 1? Sounds good to me. Just my inexperienced opinion.

Matt Stone

01-08-2003, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Youth,as they say, is often wasted on the young. But then this is nature I guess?

I heard once that the trade off for youth, strength, beauty and agility was wisdom.

As I age (I have only just begun upon that path), I find that the trade off is by far in favor of the old(er)...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

J-kid

01-08-2003, 03:59 AM

To martial artist,

I dont feel like brawling with you on-line today, What i post is my oppenion added with facts.

Alot of your stuff is the same way, You can nether prove it nor disprove it.

You allso dont have to space every sentance apart

This far.

Dosnt make you look any smarter.

Now you say have you been in the real world. Yes and i know people fail at gaining a million Dollars $$ but some people do it, They try and try and try and guess what people do make a million dollars. If you were not so pessimistic you might be able to see what i am talking about.

Matt Stone

01-08-2003, 04:05 AM

So, Judo-kid...

You want to come out to see what Yiliquan and qi are all about?

We have training every Saturday at around 0900. We finish up around 1230. Training is outdoors, so dress warmly...

KennethKu

01-08-2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by Angus
Amen. Great post! Kind of ironic that K² responded by calling you a karate master. :D

There is nothing ironic in that. To each his own. Your truth is not my truth; my way is not your way. Just b/c someone does not see the world the same way as I do, does not mean I do not respect him/her. Mr Clark pursues his art in his own way and he has devoted his life to that end. He has found his enlightenment and fulfilment in the process. I have nothing but respect and admiration for men and women with such commitment and dedication, eventhough I do not necessary agree with everything they say. Besides, Mr Clark is 6th dan. He is at the master level.

I myself have no such aspiration. I take the practical view that MA is a skill set, a tool to achieve an end, which is to prevail in combat. I do not wish to engage in combat and would rather live a peaceful life.

I fail to see why some people think they are holier than thou as if their way is the only way, which is arrogance in disguise.

There is a big world outside your limited confine of this technique vs that technique. Just b/c you may want to take MA as the end in in itself, does not mean everyone else must see it that way. I don't disrespect people who devote themselves to MA. But I also don't care much for disrespect thrown my way neither.

Judo kid is 16 and his view reflects that of a typical 16. I don't hold that against him as he will learn and grow in time. Please do not pigeonhole everyone else who does not see the world the same way into one simple category of young bull. For all you know, you may be talking to someone 10 years your senior.

KennethKu

01-08-2003, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Kenneth, in my article I was expressing the view that many groups today pass people out as dan grades that don't have a good understanding of their system, they are simply victims of someones need to make a living from karate.

As for classical karate training not being good for self defence?
Again my point was addressing the way karate is taught in many places these days. Hoshin, purpose, this is key to understanding the art you're involved in. We have many people today who don't understand this and seem to think that training in karate is a 'one size fits all' answer to everything from character building to fighting off a thug in a dark ally.

My point was, if you want karate to work in a real fight, this has to be part of your purpose for going to the dojo and so you need to train with this in mind. If you're not bothered about such things, then you should be focussed on other aspects of the art.
But thinking one way and training another will leave you with very little in either camp.

Thanks for the clarification. There is no disagreement here.

J-kid

01-08-2003, 04:29 AM

Again i am sick of people using my age against me , LAMO. Kennethuku you say hes just a 16 year old Har Har Har. Great way to prove your point sounds kind of dump coming from someone older who should be able to come up with somthing better then he is 16. When will people learn age isnt a great agument we are all diffrent i am not like any other 16 year old we are all very diffrent i can tell you that with all out honesty. Your Old and Confused retire. Lol see what i mean sounds lamo when someone trys to make a age comparesent to the way you talk or right.

J-kid

01-08-2003, 04:32 AM

Lol i ment write at the end of that last paragraph.

I might go see your school some time for the fun of it (just dont come running at me with a kendo stick or anything LOL.)

KennethKu

01-08-2003, 04:36 AM

Look kid, it is one thing to say "I want to grow up to be the president of the United States " and another to actually become one. I have not pounded on you like every one else. Give it a rest. You are not convincing anyone here. What you are mouthing off is simply ridiculous. Everybody but you, knows it. Stop making a fool of yourself by keep pressing it.

Astra

01-08-2003, 04:40 AM

Unfortunately, I can tell you that most 16-year olds think that they're "more grown up" and special.

If you're saying experience and age doesn't make people wiser over time, then you're very wrong.

bart

01-08-2003, 05:04 AM

This is backtracking a bit, but I wanted to get some facts back from JK since he's back online.

About your Eskrimador...

This is what I asked:

What style of Eskrima does your "master" classmate practice? By calling himself a master, he must have some creds, what are they?

This is what JK answered:

The guy who gos to my gym knows 4 styles of escrima and has been doing it a LONG time.

What styles?
What is a LONG time in standard time measurement units (years, months, etc)?
Who did he learn from?

martialartist said about you:

I find it funny that you point things out but never back them up.

Responding to these questions is practice in backing up what you say. What I'm doing is verifying your sources. If you don't know, that's fine, just say so, but I'm curious about this "master". I get a feeling you may be avoiding answering those questions.

Let me give you an example of why I want to know. I used to work with a guy who said he had 3 black belts in different arts. One time I convinced him to train with me outside of work and I found out that his skills were nowhere near black belt status in any of the arts he talked about. Eventually he got honest with me and it turned out that his training was minimal, just a few lessons in each art and that he read alot of MA magazines. I've come across quite a few people like that over time. They can talk the talk and they can walk a little of the walk. But mostly they're just full of brag-adocious.

There are a lot of charlatans out there in FMA. And they make the arts look bad. Anybody can say they know something and this is a chance for you to find out if this "master" of yours is really what he says. So how about it? Got any answers?

Pyros

01-08-2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
It seems alot of what you are saying is closed minded and your deafeting yourself befor you start. You know there are some good sayings you should take into good consideration, Like if you never try you will never win.

Just popping in here... I remember reading someone quote Remy Presas say: "If you train very hard you will be very good" Isn't that enough for anyone?

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Pyros
Just popping in here... I remember reading someone quote Remy Presas say: "If you train very hard you will be very good" Isn't that enough for anyone?

Not really, because if you train very hard in a wrong or useless way you are doing what my teacher calls “stupid sweat” (i.e.wasting your time).

Which is why I rarely, if ever, get too excited when people tell me they have trained XX amount of years. Maybe they are good, maybe they suck………I can’t tell unless I see it firsthand.

Pyros

01-08-2003, 06:27 AM

Okay, maybe my point wasn't so much the hard working part but being very good. I would be content with being very good sometime.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by Pyros
Okay, maybe my point wasn't so much the hard working part but being very good. I would be content with being very good sometime.

Basically you will get from training what you put into it.

You will fight the way you train.....If you train smart you will fight smart.

Yari

01-08-2003, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Basically you will get from training what you put into it.

You will fight the way you train.....If you train smart you will fight smart.

So the druken style says....
Or the monkey style...

Sorry, couldn't help myself.....;)

/Yari

white belt

01-08-2003, 09:25 AM

KennethKu said: "A dozen bottles of cheap beer can bring you to Zen". Ken, quickly(!)....what brand? It might be what Dillman is drinking!:)

On the subject of Mastery: I believe Master Po once told Grasshopper "Chasing two rabbits catches......nothing!". They were sitting at a large table, in the Shaolin monastery, at about dinner time. All the monks were eating carrots and complaining that Grasshopper did not properly attempt to capture "main course".:) Capture "main course" Judo Kid! Then hunt for "next meal".:)

That white belt guy

Matt Stone

01-08-2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Lol i ment write at the end of that last paragraph.

I might go see your school some time for the fun of it (just dont come running at me with a kendo stick or anything LOL.)

Who was this in reply to?

Rob_Broad

01-08-2003, 12:52 PM

Mike Clarke

01-08-2003, 04:04 PM

Thank you to those who wrote kindly regarding my skills[?] in karate.
I have to say though that I only appear 'masterly' to those who don't know any better.
Inside my head I'm still struggling just as much as any other 16 year old.
Unfortunatly the young can never be convinced of the older persons view of things, because they ALWAYS feel that what they feel is unique. It's only later we find out this is not so.
I know I was once 16, but how many 16 year olds know their ging to reach my age?
As for Qi /Chi /Ki call it what you will, it's there all right, I know because I've felt the effects of it. I have to say though[as with a lot of things in the martial arts] there are a lot of people who say they understand it, but clearly don't. We're lucky to have some of the first kind on here.

Regards to all,
Mike.

jfarnsworth

01-08-2003, 08:09 PM

You know, so far since I've been reading these passages and man there were a lot of them. Maybe I missed this part but has anyone asked you yet judo-kid on what you plan on doing after your body can't take the abuse of no holds barred competition? If your in training now and have been for some time do you plan on attending college somehow? If you want to become a NHB fight that's fine someone has to do it but after your ride is over and the body can't continue any longer what skills will you have? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here but you have your whole life ahead and I'm curious as to how you plan to start your beginning after the NHB ends.

Bob Hubbard

01-08-2003, 08:16 PM

You mean the millions and millions of bucks he'll be earning from product endorsements, and all those championships won't be enough to sustain him through his old age after he's 35?

Man... thats gonna suck.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
You mean the millions and millions of bucks he'll be earning from product endorsements, and all those championships won't be enough to sustain him through his old age after he's 35?

Man... thats gonna suck.

But that's only if he makes it to the top 1% of the money earners. Which is like for or 5 guys out of the tens of thousands out there who all want the same thing.
Many things could happen along the way too. He could get injured before he even gets there, the whole NHB thingy could dry up and blow away just like the Ninja Craze in the 1980’s, his manager could screw him out of everything he earns like what happens to many boxers.
When you wake up from this dream let me know how it ended.

I have an 18 year old nephew that is also into this NHB stuff and is a damn good wrestler on the school team as well.
He talks this same kind of smack and yet he still can’t beat me……his over the hill uncle.
How he is going to beat someone half my age is beyond me.

Matt Stone

01-08-2003, 09:21 PM

I am still waiting for his answer about coming down to Puyallup to hang out with the Yiliquan people... :D I think he may get an interesting education on what "traditional" martial arts are like in their orientation toward training, as well as getting an idea of what flavor qi gives to your techniques.

Saturdays, 0900, Puyallup. Email me at wolfden68@hotmail.com if you are interested (that goes for anyone in this area!).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Again i am sick of people using my age against me , LAMO. Kennethuku you say hes just a 16 year old Har Har Har. Great way to prove your point sounds kind of dump coming from someone older who should be able to come up with somthing better then he is 16. When will people learn age isnt a great agument we are all diffrent i am not like any other 16 year old we are all very diffrent i can tell you that with all out honesty. Your Old and Confused retire. Lol see what i mean sounds lamo when someone trys to make a age comparesent to the way you talk or right.

Does age matter?

I guess so since we have age limits for getting a drivers license, drinking, voting, marriage and so. Why do we have age limits………because it is felt that people of a certain age lack the common sense, good judgment, maturity and responsibility to make good proper decisions.

J-kid

01-08-2003, 10:04 PM

Err stop with the age stuff please. Its Getting real old and proves nothing.
One more thing i just want to do one real ufc fight on Pay per veiw. I am going to college (UDUB) Hopefully. Yes you make a good point about my grammer and spelling. Trust me i am working on that and soon you will see improvements.
I am going to work on computers and open a martial art school in my spair time. I will show ufc skills and it should be intresting.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Err stop with the age stuff please. Its Getting real old and proves nothing.

“age stuff”…….”getting old”…….Hey, that’s pretty funny.

J-kid

01-08-2003, 10:11 PM

I am done talking about this, Think what you want. Most of the MMA community thinks you guys are nuts anyways. You are starting to make me think they are right about you guys and i am wasteing my time posting here since you guys are so one sided. I have the ability if someone makes a point to under stand why they say what they are saying. But i never say anything prejutice about anyone. Like using age, Sex, race etc to prove my points go ahead laugh. I am sick of this go ahead call me a dumb kid or some stupid mma. I am tired of this crap, Later.

RyuShiKan

01-08-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
…… You are starting to make me think they are right about you guys and i am wasteing my time posting here since you guys are so one sided.

Easy cure for that………..swing on by Yiliquan1’s dojo and give him a lesson and prove to all of us that you are the “real deal” instead of just some teenager that hides behind his keyboard and talks smack.

Bob Hubbard

01-08-2003, 10:36 PM

I am thinking 'Ed Gruberman'.....

MartialArtist

01-08-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I am done talking about this, Think what you want. Most of the MMA community thinks you guys are nuts anyways. You are starting to make me think they are right about you guys and i am wasteing my time posting here since you guys are so one sided. I have the ability if someone makes a point to under stand why they say what they are saying. But i never say anything prejutice about anyone. Like using age, Sex, race etc to prove my points go ahead laugh. I am sick of this go ahead call me a dumb kid or some stupid mma. I am tired of this crap, Later.
Actually, most of the MMA community respects its roots.

A lot of MMAists think the idea of meditation and such is useless but they don't forget the aspect of your mind. They just do what they want in different ways.

What you are proving is that MMAists have their share of ignorant people. Some MMAists even say that they say Bruce Lee was crap. Well, last time I heard, people like Shamrock credit Bruce for making MMA mainstream. He also called him "advanced and quicker for pretty much anyone to handle". Advanced as in he came up with techniques as it went, he did techniques he never learned formally but formed instinctively just by learning some principles like if your arm is hyperextended, it hurts.

MartialArtist

01-09-2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
To martial artist,

I dont feel like brawling with you on-line today, What i post is my oppenion added with facts.

Alot of your stuff is the same way, You can nether prove it nor disprove it.

You allso dont have to space every sentance apart

This far.

Dosnt make you look any smarter.

Now you say have you been in the real world. Yes and i know people fail at gaining a million Dollars $$ but some people do it, They try and try and try and guess what people do make a million dollars. If you were not so pessimistic you might be able to see what i am talking about.
Yeah, LOL! Especially when you are PROVEN WRONG that you have no idea what you're talking about including saying "TKD, no matter in what form, has grappling" and yes, you did say that. You even said that here I believe.

Spaces? You mean lines. And it makes for easier reading and makes jumbled sentences easier.

Get out in the real world kid. Some people make a million dollars only by working a few hours a week, while others spend 60 hours a week and rarely take in 60K.

So, what you're saying is that if you work hard enough, you can get into the NFL? Sorry, but there are MILLIONS of people who train 12 hours a day, go to every camp, etc. and still can't make it into the NFL.

Or, people dedicated their lives to finding a cure for the common cold.

Instead of viewing it pessimisticly, I view it as realistic.

If I work hard enough, I can write symphonies that will go down in history like Mozart's. Right. I can try to write one hell of a song, but not even close to Mozart's. That is something we call God-given ability. You can't change it. What you can change is to maximize your potential and that is what everyone here is doing.

But I find you foolish and stupid if you do something like give up your studies and train full-time for the NFL.

MartialArtist

01-09-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Again i am sick of people using my age against me , LAMO. Kennethuku you say hes just a 16 year old Har Har Har. Great way to prove your point sounds kind of dump coming from someone older who should be able to come up with somthing better then he is 16. When will people learn age isnt a great agument we are all diffrent i am not like any other 16 year old we are all very diffrent i can tell you that with all out honesty. Your Old and Confused retire. Lol see what i mean sounds lamo when someone trys to make a age comparesent to the way you talk or right.
16 doesn't matter. The point is you're acting like a typical 16 year old. There is a 15 year old here who has more wisdom than you, and we can tell that he has knowledge beyond his years.

Also, his spelling isn't that of a 5th grader.

MartialArtist

01-09-2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Astra
Unfortunately, I can tell you that most 16-year olds think that they're "more grown up" and special.

If you're saying experience and age doesn't make people wiser over time, then you're very wrong.
Statistics also prove it.

What is the accident rate for teens? They make up the smallest group of drivers, yet they have 200% or more accidents than everyone else.

It may have to do with INEXPERIENCE maybe. Not having enough skill. What also plays a big role is teen ego.

MartialArtist

01-09-2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by bart
This is backtracking a bit, but I wanted to get some facts back from JK since he's back online.

About your Eskrimador...

This is what I asked:

This is what JK answered:

What styles?
What is a LONG time in standard time measurement units (years, months, etc)?
Who did he learn from?

martialartist said about you:

Responding to these questions is practice in backing up what you say. What I'm doing is verifying your sources. If you don't know, that's fine, just say so, but I'm curious about this "master". I get a feeling you may be avoiding answering those questions.

Let me give you an example of why I want to know. I used to work with a guy who said he had 3 black belts in different arts. One time I convinced him to train with me outside of work and I found out that his skills were nowhere near black belt status in any of the arts he talked about. Eventually he got honest with me and it turned out that his training was minimal, just a few lessons in each art and that he read alot of MA magazines. I've come across quite a few people like that over time. They can talk the talk and they can walk a little of the walk. But mostly they're just full of brag-adocious.

There are a lot of charlatans out there in FMA. And they make the arts look bad. Anybody can say they know something and this is a chance for you to find out if this "master" of yours is really what he says. So how about it? Got any answers?
For the person who can minimize feeling pain? What exactly are you looking for?

hwarangdo.com and video clips. He does wacky stuff like put needles in. Of course, the TV show exaggerated and nonesense everything talking about "mystical spirit called chi" or something like that or "he didn't bleed because he thought about it!"

Or the documentary on the History Channel or something on an Okinawan who did not feel pain (or did not react to the pain) when kicked in the groin.

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I am thinking 'Ed Gruberman'.....

"Come, students, and close the circle at the feet of the MASTER"

"BOOT TO THE HEAD!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that I have gotten that out of my system...

Judo-kid, seriously, come see what we do in Puyallup. I do really understand where you are coming from, but there are things that I don't think you have had the opportunity to be exposed to - one of those things is how an authentic, traditional art is practiced and taught. I'm not trying to convert you, nor challenge you. I am only trying to broaden your experience base and horizons so you can better judge what you do in the future. From what I have seen thusfar in the SeaTac area (from Lakewood all the way up to Seattle), there are very, very few good MA schools... The bulk of the "traditional" ones are complete crap. There are a few commercial schools that are good (there is a really good Isshin-ryu school down Puyallup way), but the simple fact is that the really good ones are all closed-door schools and are hard to find. SMR Jo (Lynnwood). Pentjak Silat (Seattle). Yiliquan (Puyallup).

Email me if you are serious about expanding your horizons. If you want to hold tight to your preconceptions and predjudices rather than open your mind like a MMAist is supposed to be inclined to do, don't.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

MartialArtist

01-09-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Pyros
Just popping in here... I remember reading someone quote Remy Presas say: "If you train very hard you will be very good" Isn't that enough for anyone?
If you train in the MA to have more stamina, you will get it if you work hard.

If you train for sport, you will improve and do well

But it is an entirely different thing to say you want to master an art. Meaning, you know every move and know how to apply each and every one of them, and can flow from one thing to the next, have nothing to improve on, etc., nonetheless multiple arts.

It's like saying a 3'3" person with webbed hands wants to be the starting center for the LA Lakers. A 3'3" person will not be in the NBA, no matter how hard he tries. A 3'3" person will do very well in collegiate wrestling though if he works hard at it. But still, nobody will not master anything.

And judo-kid, your arguments on conotation and denotation is useless, you are fighting a losing battle.

white belt

01-09-2003, 01:12 AM

I have a good friend who is dyslexic. Can't write to save his life. A whiz at electronics. Owns his own electronics firm in Chicago. Doing well.

MMA came from traditional martial arts. GOOD traditional martial arts with SOUND principals. Not McDojang. Sounds like a seasoned practicioner from such a school is willing to help with whatever pointers might be needed. In a constructive manner, yet.

Judo Kid, look at the size of the string you started. Good job. You really can get the ball rolling with debate. Switch to Decaf. and go into sales or marketing after college. How is it you hammered on people and are now getting offered legitimate lessons in an interesting art form from a total stranger? Something interesting happened on this string for sure.

white belt

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 01:28 AM

Judo-kid lists the following arts as the ones he practices:

Judo/Jujutsu (green belt) , JKD, Muay Thai kickboxing and western Boxing.

While Judo is a relative traditional art, it is my understanding that Judo-kid's coach is something of a non-traditional maverick (the whole bowing thing; Judo-kid's comments). So I kind of discount his judo training as having been done "traditionally." It is also my understanding from news clips regarding the whole bowing incident that Judo-kid's coach is well skilled and knowledgeable, so I'm not knocking his training quality.

Muay Thai, while "traditional" in a certain sense, is a combative sport (as is judo) moreso than a "combat" oriented martial art. Not knocking the nastiness of either the training or the effectiveness of Thai kicks, just making an overall point that the training is oriented not on killing/disabling the opponent, but fighting within certain rules limitations.

JKD is fine as a theory that guides training, but as a "style" fof fighting it goes against everything that Brucie intended it to be.

Western boxing is much like Muay Thai in the sense that it is a combative sport with very specific rules. Not going to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson anytime soon to disprove its effectiveness, however.

So everything that Judo-kid has studied up til now has been either sport oriented or non-traditional. He has no experience whatsoever with actual traditional training (at least none that he has listed, and I refuse to accept watching a class or hearing from another person as legitimate sources of info, since I won't allow myself that luxury).

I'm just offering Judo-kid the option of expanding his experience and knowledge base. He either takes me up on the offer and benefits, refuses because he is locked into his mindset, or refuses because he is afraid his world will be turned upside down.

I'm not challenging him (c'mon, he's half my age - a kid still - how "cool" would that be? :confused: ), just making an offer and an observation. Personally, I don't think he'll take me up on it. I don't mean that in an inflammatory way, just that as an opinionated teen I believe he will think he already knows enough about "traditional" training that he doesn't need some old fogey (old - I'm all of 34) to prove to him that he is right. I remember being 16, and I remember how opinionated I was and how I thought every other school and style was inferior to Yiliquan. I am older and wiser (yeah, right :D ) now, and I know better.

That email again is wolfden68@hotmail.com.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

RyuShiKan

01-09-2003, 01:36 AM

All I know is Saturday is just around the corner which means Judo-Kid could be going to Yiliquan1’s dojo.
Do you think it’s too late to get that televised on pay-per-view?

Judo-Kid,

Not to scare you off or anything but Yiliquan1 is in the Military and even though he has a desk job now he used to be in the 82nd/101st (sorry can’t remember) Airborne and served as a Sniper. Airborne is not usually noted for letting in “girl scouts” or people of weak fortitude so you can imagine Yiliquan1 is no wuss.
How is your health insurance by the way. ;)

Just kidding. I doubt Yiliquan1 will “do you ugly” as he is a really nice guy, but you will learn a great deal about what is and is not “old style” martial arts. I would go if I were you.

KennethKu

01-09-2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1 .......Muay Thai, while "traditional" in a certain sense, is a combative sport (as is judo) moreso than a "combat" oriented martial art. Not knocking the nastiness of either the training or the effectiveness of Thai kicks, just making an overall point that the training is oriented not on killing/disabling the opponent, but fighting within certain rules limitations.....

Be discrete when you are referring to a 16 yr Thai kid training in MT. :) He probably has 7 years of training and dozens of ring fight in him already.

Angus

01-09-2003, 02:47 AM

LOL, or 3-4 classes (if that) in a MT gym that isn't that great. There is 1 good Muay Thai gym in this state, and it's nowhere near him. The only other one thats ok is closer to him, but still not very close. It doesn't really teach MT, but rather JKD'ed MT that's basically watered down MT that really only focuses on the basic boxing punches, the roundhouse, and the shin block. If he's taking his lessons there, he's got a LONG way to go before he can step into a real gym. Not knocking him, but if you're going to be doing pure MT, you have to do it from a good gym, not an Inosanto lineage school (for the most part).

Yili, would I be welcome to come visit the school as well? I'm quite interested in seeing your art, as I've never experienced it first hand or even first person. Sounds interesting. :)

J-kid

01-09-2003, 03:46 AM

Sorry i really have to up date my profile.
I take MT, Judo, Jujutsu, Boxing, Wrestling freestyle, and escrima.
I dont take JKD only did that a few months then i wanted to work more on my MT / Boxing after that.

J-kid

01-09-2003, 03:50 AM

Hey Yiliquan1 Ill stop by with a friend, But would you like to spar if i do? (light sparing what ever) I dont want to drive over there for nothing. I will send you a email on the date once i get a opening. I have the next few weekends booked because of martial arts and friends. Contests are happening right now also have to prepair my self for the judo high school state championship i wanna get first. But after that sure why not, I have nothing to fear but fear it self and as long as your not really just plotting to shoot me when i get there its cool.

RyuShiKan

01-09-2003, 03:55 AM

"target aquired"

:eek: :snipe:

Bob Hubbard

01-09-2003, 04:02 AM

Be nice...

JK, let us know how things go. All kidding aside. :asian:

If I was closer to Washington, I'd stop in to at least watch. Heh, best thing about MT is I have invites to train all over the world...now, step 1 win lotto...step 2, get over aversion of flying, step 3, train! :D

cali_tkdbruin

01-09-2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Hey Yiliquan1 Ill stop by with a friend,
.
.
.
I have nothing to fear but fear it self and as long as your not really just plotting to shoot me when i get there its cool.

LOL :rofl: :rofl:
Don't worry J-kid, I'm sure Yiliquan will keep his firearms locked up in a safe place. Isn't that right Yiliquan??? :D:

:2pistols: HEY! put those weapons away mister!!

RyuShiKan

01-09-2003, 04:10 AM

I think Judo-Kid knows I was just funin' with him.
Seriously though. Yiliquan is a nice guy and you should have a good training session.

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 04:11 AM

Judo-kid -

You have my email (several times :D ). Let me know when you want to come up. Bring whomever you like. Sparring? We don't spar. If you want to play a little grab-ass tag, seeing who can tap whom more times than the other with techniques that contain little in the way of intent or danger, then sure. If you want to test your skills against mine (or anybody else's for that matter) then that is another deal entirely. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that is how it is in our group... We don't free spar. We run drills, one, two and three step sparring, to develop reactions, footwork, etc. We develop our timing, distance, striking angles, etc., based on the above mentioned drills that come, primarily, from in depth study of our forms.

Bottom line, what is the purpose of "sparring?" Sparring is a training tool for sporting competition situations - where rules exist, techniques are limited, and there is little danger of a "real" attack (i.e. with intent to injure as opposed to intent to touch).

Believe me, the entire purpose for your attending our training is not so I can "convert" you to traditional styles, just for you to see how a traditional style is trained - no frills, no flowers, no silk and lace, no BS. Just solid hits, solid stances, come to Jesus joint locks and lots and lots of pain... :D

Angus -

Come on down! Anyone and everyone is welcome. We have nothing to hide and welcome anybody that is interested in seeing what we do. Maybe you can give me some insight into how to get to Woodinville, seeing as how I have to go up there to visit the SMR Jo dojo for an interview with the head instructor (for admission to his training group).

As for RyuShiKan's comments about my military service... I was never in an Airborne unit, though I did go to the school (for what little that is worth). I am a former Infantryman :2pistols:, former Cavalry Scout (and Scout Drill Sergeant) :snipe:, but due to career choices and Army caused injuries (gotta love herniated discs!!!), I now ride a desk with the Army JAG Corps. Yee Ha!

:tank:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
If I was closer to Washington, I'd stop in to at least watch.

Here's the deal... Anybody here on Martial Talk that finds themselves in the Seattle/Tacoma/Fort Lewis/McChord AFB area has an open invite to come and train with us... Email me, let me know you are coming, and we will be sure to do our best to put on a good show... And who knows, maybe we can learn something new from the exchange!

Judo-kid:

Bring your sticks! I did Modern Arnis in Japan, and Pekiti Tirsia (for a very short time) years ago... Maybe you can show me the Escrima you are learning and together we can better report to those who ask what it is you are doing...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

RyuShiKan

01-09-2003, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

As for RyuShiKan's comments about my military service... I was never in an Airborne unit, though I did go to the school (for what little that is worth). I am a former Infantryman :2pistols:, former Cavalry Scout (and Scout Drill Sergeant) :snipe:, but due to career choices and Army caused injuries (gotta love herniated discs!!!), I now ride a desk with the Army JAG Corps. Yee Ha!

Sorry my mistake, I thought you went through the school and were asigned to an Airborne unit.

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 04:19 AM

I did some sniper time briefly at the end of my tour in Korea as a grunt, and then some more when I was a scout. Spent most of my time as a scout humping the hog (my baby!!!), a task I relished more than anything else! Other guys can have their girlfriends, trucks, dogs and fishing poles - just gimme mah hawg!!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

:biggun: :biggun: :biggun:

Lucky for me and my knees, however, I only ever got my "5 jump chump" qualification.

No worries!

RyuShiKan

01-09-2003, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
... Other guys can have their girlfriends, trucks, dogs and fishing poles - just gimme mah hawg!!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

I am partial to the MK19 myself........what a sound!

J-kid

01-09-2003, 05:00 AM

I am not that great at escrima yet but will be soon. Ill trade you some moves when i go. Hey why cant we do some real light sparring its fun if anything and i can see how your style works in conbat.

bart

01-09-2003, 05:20 AM

I am not that great at escrima yet but will be soon

What style(s) does your Eskrimador do?
How long in years (or months) has he trained in each style?
Who did he learn from?

Those are pretty simple questions. Now I'm curious about why you don't want to answer.

Hey why cant we do some real light sparring its fun if anything and i can see how your style works in conbat.

Yiliquan1 pointed out a couple reasons already, but another one would be that if you're 16 years old, if you got hurt he would be in some serious criminal trouble and your parents could then sue him for some serious money. That's the way it works with minors.

Another thing is that light sparring is not combat. It's a game with rules. Some things can be tested, but it's not combat.

KennethKu

01-09-2003, 05:34 AM

Mr Stone is JAG. He knows how to cover his a$$.

JK may need to bring a written permission from his parents. He can't sign any waiver himself.

J-kid

01-09-2003, 06:00 AM

Ill sign a waiver and have my parents sign it i dont care.
ill answer your questions tommorrow, I am tired.

Mike Clarke

01-09-2003, 06:25 AM

Hey JK,
Well, I can only say you're a lucky son of a gun to recieve an invitation from a martial artist who's only agenda is to lift you onto his shoulders and let you see further than you could on your own. I hope you have the presence of mind and good manners to thank him for his gift.

I admire your pluck kid, but, if you wouldn't mind taking a bit of advice from a former 16 year old who ALSO thought he was a lean, mean, fighting machine [but this was back in 1971], curb the attitude and show some respect. If nothing else it will open doors that will otherwise stay closed.

Your not the first, or the last, or maybe even the best[?] teenager to train in the martial arts. Your walking a well worn path that millions of people your age have walked before.
The thing is, you've only just started walking so to you every view is a new one.

I'm looking forward to your report on your visit. I couldn't care less about your spelling or grammer, just tell it as it was.

Mike.

chufeng

01-09-2003, 09:17 AM

Light sparring???
What is that?

The drills we train are full tilt boogie...if I ask you to attack me, you had better do it with the intent to actually hit me with full power...if I don't move and you pull your punch, you are cheating me...

The "defender" is required to "go easy" on the attacker, however, because the defender has the upper hand (at least in our system)...

Likewise, if I attack you, you'd better DO something to deal with the attack or you will get thumped...for beginners, such as yourself, we attck long and in straight lines to give you plenty of time to get out of the way.

If we spar (rarely) it is with the intent to use techniques derived from our forms...NO PATTY CAKE...and usually ends up being as short as our one-step or three-step drills anyways.

maybe I'll see you one of these Saturdays.

:asian:
chufeng

Angus

01-09-2003, 10:16 AM

Sounds great Yiliquan! What's the SMR Jo dojo, though? I've seen everyplace within the next couple cities, but never even heard of that. What is SMR Jo?

Matt Stone

01-09-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I am not that great at escrima yet but will be soon. Ill trade you some moves when i go. Hey why cant we do some real light sparring its fun if anything and i can see how your style works in conbat.

The only way to see how it works in "combat" is for you to attack me with the genuine intent to hurt me... If you don't really mean it, I won't be inclined to do much about it, and given my size and shapely figure (I'm just a chubby, out of shape grey hair anyway...), even a solid hit won't cause me much nevermind... So, you would walk away thinking little of Yili because your patty-cake attack landed - meaning only that I had no real motivation to defend myself since there was really nothing to defend against besides a light strike that I could have easily "sucked up."

Believe me, we will show you what the real thing looks like. Not going to pound you, nor am I going to just let you watch. You will get to see, feel and apply...

And just for clarification's sake, Chufeng is the senior instructor. It is his training group, not mine (which is why I always say "our" rather than "my").

Angus -

SMR Jo is shorthand for Shinto Muso-ryu Jojutsu, the original Japanese style of fighting with the 4 shaku length staff. I can tell you more about it offline (email me). We can also talk about what you know of the schools up north.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

tshadowchaser

01-09-2003, 07:51 PM

Judo-Kid you are being offered a chance to train and practice with people who have knowledge and are willing to share it with you. They have explained that they "play" hard. I truely hope that if you do go up to visit these folks that you come back with a better understanding of who and what they are and what their art is about.
If you go enjoy the trainning for you are being give an oppertunity to make friends and learn . Young people in the arts do not offten get open invatations to practice with respected and knowledgeable people outside of their own school. You are being offered a golden oppertunity .
Shadow

Matt Stone

01-10-2003, 02:29 AM

I don't know so much about "respected..."

The Northwest Yiliquan Association members are an eclectic and diverse group to say the least. We are joined together by a simple appreciation of good, old fashioned pain, dealt out via solid, simple, easy to learn (though hard to "master") basics...

I stated in another thread my frustration with MMAists and their beratement of traditional arts. There are a few MMAists that acknowledge and respect their traditional roots, and though they have moved "beyond" traditional arts, they recognize both the legitimacy of their roots as well as the effect their roots had on their development.

My only gripe with Judo-kid, if you could even call it that, is that many of his comments sound exactly like mine did when I was his age - based not on my own experiences, but on the comments made to me by people I respected. After all, if you respect your father, you will give weight to the comments he makes when he shares opinions with you, even if those opinions are about things we have no direct knowledge of. So I want Judo-kid to make a judgement based not on someone's vindictive desire to educate him, but rather on an objective demonstration of technique.

Traditional styles survive because they have something to offer. Styles that do not survive not only have little to offer, but they also have little in the way of keeping them alive... JKD has shattered into dozens of "camps," and has effectively become a hodge-podge of different JKD "styles." Did Brucie have that in mind? I doubt it. Will JKD survive? To survive, it would first have to be identified, and with the volume of JKD variations, what
is JKD anymore anyway? So go "non-traditional" styles, unfortunately, unless they become - wait for it - traditional by adopting some methods of communicating their lessons over time... Like forms, stylized drills, etc.

I am looking forward to meeting Judo-kid. While his writing style leaves a bit to be desired, he sounds like a smart kid with a strong desire to learn. Good things, if you ask me, for a real martial artist to have.

Judo-kid -

This weekend is open. Next weekend I am attending a Pavel Tsatsouline seminar series in Seattle. After that, we will have to go week by week. Let me know when you want to come down.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

MartialArtist

01-10-2003, 03:01 AM

Washington, huh? Where exactly in Washington, I'm not familiar with that community.

However, I did reside in SW Washington, in Vancouver near Portland.

MartialArtist

01-10-2003, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Judo-Kid you are being offered a chance to train and practice with people who have knowledge and are willing to share it with you. They have explained that they "play" hard. I truely hope that if you do go up to visit these folks that you come back with a better understanding of who and what they are and what their art is about.
If you go enjoy the trainning for you are being give an oppertunity to make friends and learn . Young people in the arts do not offten get open invatations to practice with respected and knowledgeable people outside of their own school. You are being offered a golden oppertunity .
Shadow
I agree judo-kid, take the invitation. You will become better with any type of training and it would be nice for anyone to see what others are about whether it be for combat or fun.

bart

01-11-2003, 05:22 PM

Judo-kid posted on 01-09-2003

ill answer your questions tommorrow, I am tired.

I'm thinking this guy doesn't exist and I'm calling your bluff. The worst thing you can do to ruin credibility is to lie about the facts that back up your argument. The point of discussions like ours is in this forum is not to "win", but rather to share truths. It doesn't take much to answer the questions I asked. When it comes to getting training from people and having them educate you in what they know, doors will close from actions that show poor character. Back up what you say if it's true. If it's not, then change your behavior so that you don't become the type of guy that lies about his skill and training. I asked these questions 7 days ago and even though you've posted several times since, the answers to back up your facts haven't been in any of them.

Martial arts and their mastery are very much about discovering truth. My advice to you is to start from within. If you lie once, everything you say afterwards is suspect. If you admit it, then credibility can be rebuilt.

MartialArtist

01-11-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by bart
I'm thinking this guy doesn't exist and I'm calling your bluff. The worst thing you can do to ruin credibility is to lie about the facts that back up your argument. The point of discussions like ours is in this forum is not to "win", but rather to share truths. It doesn't take much to answer the questions I asked. When it comes to getting training from people and having them educate you in what they know, doors will close from actions that show poor character. Back up what you say if it's true. If it's not, then change your behavior so that you don't become the type of guy that lies about his skill and training. I asked these questions 7 days ago and even though you've posted several times since, the answers to back up your facts haven't been in any of them.

Martial arts and their mastery are very much about discovering truth. My advice to you is to start from within. If you lie once, everything you say afterwards is suspect. If you admit it, then credibility can be rebuilt.
I don't think judo-kid lied about anything.

But I do believe that he, like us, have a lot to learn about MA. He's concerned on styles but wisdom and experience will change it and the ability to swallow your pride.

J-kid

01-11-2003, 07:00 PM

I am learning esrima once a week for a hour or so at my gym.
A guy by the name of (BLANK) -I didnt get his permission to put his name online so sorry. But he has trained in 4 styles of escrima and had his own TKD/ESRIMA school for years. He stopped his school went into body building now he shares his skills with me once a week. He learned from a man that learned right from the GM of Escrima he has been doing it for over 20 years and is really good he wants to spawnsor the GM to are school from somewhere in the MW america i think. Like i said befor i am a newbie at Escrima but i pick stuff up pritty fast.
I forgot to get all the details about what styles he knows etc but i will for you if you want.

J-kid

01-11-2003, 07:01 PM

Also only reason i didnt post about this sooner is because i forgot.

MartialArtist

01-11-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I am learning esrima once a week for a hour or so at my gym.
A guy by the name of (BLANK) -I didnt get his permission to put his name online so sorry. But he has trained in 4 styles of escrima and had his own TKD/ESRIMA school for years. He stopped his school went into body building now he shares his skills with me once a week. He learned from a man that learned right from the GM of Escrima he has been doing it for over 20 years and is really good he wants to spawnsor the GM to are school from somewhere in the MW america i think. Like i said befor i am a newbie at Escrima but i pick stuff up pritty fast.
I forgot to get all the details about what styles he knows etc but i will for you if you want.
There is no need to use his name, or the styles he knows. But everyone including him knows he did not master the art but from the way you describe him, is pretty good at it.

Matt Stone

01-11-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
But he has trained in 4 styles of escrima and had his own TKD/ESRIMA school for years.

What four styles? If he had his own school, it is entirely possible that he may well be known by someone on this board (given the large population of FMAists on Martial Talk).

And as a side note, the number of styles a person lays claim to knowing is not necessarily a mark of a good martial artist nor a good teacher. In fact, and I think this was hinted at earlier in this thread, large numbers of arts studied is often a hallmark of someone that spent nowhere near enough time in any single one of them... It is nearly impossible, in a respectable traditional school, to obtain grading beyond 1st degree black belt in multiple styles. Teachers making claims of "grandmaster-ship," "soke" titles, or simply high ranking black belts in numerous arts, are often very possibly people with either "honorary" grading or knew someone who "cooperated" with said instructor and traded black belt grading for black belt grading.

Anyway.

He learned from a man that learned right from the GM of Escrima he has been doing it for over 20 years and is really good he wants to spawnsor the GM to are school from somewhere in the MW america i think.

With the huge number of FMA styles, saying he learned from an Escrima "grandmaster," or from a guy that trained with an Escrima "grandmaster" means little... What Escrima style is important...

Like i said befor i am a newbie at Escrima but i pick stuff up pritty fast.

FMA are learned quickly... The environment they were created in demanded skills that could be developed and used in a short period of time. Don't confuse speed of teaching with speed of learning (though I am not saying you do not learn quickly regardless of the art being learned).

I forgot to get all the details about what styles he knows etc but i will for you if you want.

I think that is what Bart has been asking for...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Bob Hubbard

01-12-2003, 12:42 AM

Judo,
Theres a large number of 'styles' of FMA out there, I believe I've counted over 30 varrients of Escrima myself. Can you mention the styles themselves, and/or the GM in question? It might help folks understand the lineage.

I know there was a 'thing' on the Modern Arnis forum a short bit back over which Presas brothers 'Modern Arnis' was the 'real one'. (I'm summarizing...)

:asian:

sammy3170

01-12-2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
This thread is to see what arts people want to learn and plan on mastering, For me it is.....

Judo
Jujutsu
Escrima
Boxing
MTkickboxing
Wrestling Freestyle/submission
Sambo
PLUS various Moves from other arts.

This is what i use to fight with i am working hard to learn as much as i can from each, Plus other stuff from other arts, I can give you a good reason to why i am choosing to use each of these arts.

For myself I want to master Ryukyu Kempo and gain dan rankings in Judo and possibly American Kenpo and also gain instructor certification in Close Quarter Combat under either the SFCA or Tank Todd and the Todd Systems of Close Combat.

I'll see how I go
Cheers
Sammy

Kiz Bell

01-12-2003, 02:07 AM

OK then, these are the arts I'd master if I could:-

Seitei-gata Iaido
Muso Jikeden Eishen-ryu Iaijutsu
Seitei-gata Jodo
Shinden-Muso Ryu Jodo

As to the whole debate about planning to master an art, I really can't see anything wrong with that ambition. He/she may not actually get there, but they will be all the better for trying. As they say, if you aim for the stars you might hit the moon. If you only aim for the treetops, you will never get any higher than the treetops.

Chronuss

01-12-2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I am learning esrima once a week for a hour or so at my gym.

at the studio I attend, we are fortunate enough to have a Pentjak(sp anyone PLEASE?) Silat practitioner with an escrima background, and he teaches once a week, usually on fridays. now...once a week IS NOT ENOUGH to do the MASTERING that you say you wish to do; no possible way in hell. you may see and memorize...but that's no way to master.

He learned from a man that learned right from the GM of Escrima...

Who's the GM?
Who's the name of the guy from whom you learn?

bart

01-12-2003, 04:44 AM

I am learning esrima once a week for a hour or so at my gym.

First things first: You will not master Eskrima by training once a week for an hour or so. You'll have to train more and you'll need more than just one person to partner with.

guy who gos to my gym knows 4 styles of escrima...
But he has trained in 4 styles of escrima...
I forgot to get all the details about what styles he knows etc but i will for you if you want...

Next, it really is important to know the styles. Different styles require different things to be a master. Some styles say you have to be at least 50. Other styles require that you have a certain set of skills and have exercised them. Other styles require participation in competition.

Knowing the style is very important. Yes, I want you to find out. You should find out and know for your own sake so that when you "master" the styles you'll know what you're a "master" of.

He learned from a man that learned right from the GM of Escrima he has been doing it for over 20 years

Next, there is no one grandmaster of all Eskrima. Some styles even have more than one grandmaster. Four different styles implies training under at least a few different people, although it's very likely that this guy's teacher has studied more than one style, it's not equally likely that they were mastered. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if your Eskrimador may be very skilled or even a master. I think it behooves you to check this out too.

but i have a master of Escrima that gos to my judo school

Also in the FMA at least, if somebody hangs the shingle out then they shouldn't be afraid to have their name out in the community, especially if they refer to themselves as a master. I would like to know his name, but I don't have a need to know his name. I'll leave that up to you to disclose. However, I do want to know:

Who your Eskrimador learned from?
Who is "the GM of Escrima" that your Eskrimador is referring too? This would be the guy who taught your teacher.

And again you should want to know this stuff too as someone who is trying to "master" and art. This is a hole in credibility. Many teachers would be offended if their students didn't want to
mention them and give them credit. Not proclaiming your lineage is suspect. Also, in the FMA at least it's generally frowned upon to not know what it is that you're learning. You may be a newbie, but you should at least know the name of the style, or styles in your case, that you study.

Like i said befor i am a newbie at Escrima but i pick stuff up pritty fast.

Basic Eskrima is initially learned very quickly, but all of the advanced skills and subtleties like most other arts take time and practice to learn. Some eskrima skills require development of muscles that are normally unused or weak. Deep callousing is also necessary to do some of the drills that build skills. There should also be more involved than stickfighting, like some empty
hands or stick and dagger. That takes practice, much more practice than can fit in one hour a week if you're looking to master it.

posted by martialartist
I don't think judo-kid lied about anything.

Now maybe lying was too strong a word. How about exaggerating? Although still dishonest, it does contain some modicum of truth. I think that maybe is more accurate a description of what I'm feeling about JK's statement. He may of course have been mislead by this Eskrima Master.

We'll have to see from his answers...

Also only reason i didnt post about this sooner is because i forgot.

...if he doesn't forget :)

J-kid

01-12-2003, 05:11 AM

Ok first off, I never said i would master any art in one day. This is like a starting up course for me. Also i didnt get a chance to ask him to put his name on the internet another thing i forgot to ask about the style as well. I will try to make note of it next time i see him. Also he never called himself a master but i consider him to be one for how long he has done it and how good he is.

bart

01-12-2003, 05:14 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I'm looking forward to your answers.

KennethKu

01-12-2003, 05:17 AM

This is not referring to Eskrima in particular. I just don't recall any real "Master" being particular about being recognized as such. It always seems like the empty bucket makes the most noise about being addressed in title and rank. Then again, that could be simply b/c I don't get out much.

bart

01-12-2003, 05:23 AM

Also he never called himself a master but i consider him to be one for how long he has done it and how good he is.

One more thing...

And again Escrima is diffrent then all of them though but i have a master of Escrima that gos to my judo school and we have clinics for stick fighting clinics,

as in this quote, you used this Eskrima master as a point to bolster your arguments. But it wasn't 100 percent true that he was a master. So by doing this you misrepresent yourself in an effort to seem more knowledgeable.

I'm glad that you finally clarified this a little bit. Again I look forward to your answers.

fissure

01-12-2003, 04:29 PM

First, I must say I have zero experience in Escima or any other weapon training. For no particular reason weapon type arts have never interested me.
My question is for the thread starter, Judo-Kid. From reading your numerous posts throughout this board, it has been my understanding that your goal was to become a "great" fighter and win in UFC type competition (and possibly the hotly contested "tuff guy on the block" events). If this is so why train in Escrima at all? This is obviously not going to help you in the afore mentioned endeavors, as I don't think they allow participants to whack each other with sticks (well maybe in the neighborhood championship thing its O.K.).
It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets. As you have stated, your only interested in tech. for UFC type fighting. Stick fighting obviously doesn't fit this mold. If your not careful, someone may accuse you of trying to learn an ART.

Kirk

01-12-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by fissure
First, I must say I have zero experience in Escima or any other weapon training. For no particular reason weapon type arts have never interested me.
My question is for the thread starter, Judo-Kid. From reading your numerous posts throughout this board, it has been my understanding that your goal was to become a "great" fighter and win in UFC type competition (and possibly the hotly contested "tuff guy on the block" events). If this is so why train in Escrima at all? This is obviously not going to help you in the afore mentioned endeavors, as I don't think they allow participants to whack each other with sticks (well maybe in the neighborhood championship thing its O.K.).
It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets. As you have stated, your only interested in tech. for UFC type fighting. Stick fighting obviously doesn't fit this mold. If your not careful, someone may accuse you of trying to learn an ART.

Could a pool cue not be used instead of the specific weapon?
What about a broom stick, mop handle, umbrella, or cane? Do
you feel these couldn't possibly used in real life?

Escrima is not solely a stick or weapons art. They have empty
handed techniques as well.

arnisador

01-12-2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Kirk
Escrima is not solely a stick or weapons art. They have empty
handed techniques as well.

It depends what style of eskrima you mean; there are certainly eskrima systems that are stick-only (e.g. Balintawak) or at least weapons-only. Typically an eskrima system does have empty-hand techniques as well, as you mention, at least as they're usually taught here in the U.S.

Astra

01-12-2003, 05:13 PM

Fissure: Do not limit yourself to only thinking narrow-mindedly. Give an Escrima practitioner a newspaper and he'll gladly use it as a weapon. You can use nearly everything as a weapon (not neccesarily Jackie Chan style, hehe)

From experience, I can say a newspaper is actually a pretty good weapon :o

fissure

01-12-2003, 05:14 PM

Kirk,if only you had read my entire post!

it has been my understanding that your goal was to become a "great" fighter and win in UFC type competition - the "your" being Judo-Kid.

In reply to your question, no. Broom sticks and such are not often use inside of the UFC ring.
My point is to Judo-Kid alone (as I stated at the beginning of my post) and is meant to underscore the possibility of one practicing an art for reasons other than simple combat.
I fully understand the use of "at hand weapons" in real life. Unfortunately this concept has nothing to do with my question to Judo-Kid. Thank you for missing the point entirely.

J-kid

01-12-2003, 05:18 PM

Its always helpful for some weapons training also there trapping technics arnt bad ether.

fissure

01-12-2003, 05:31 PM

Astra - see my last post.

Judo-Kid, have your goals changed? Is becoming a UFC champ. no longer your intent?
If so then I agree, weapon training could be helpfull. If not then how is does weapon practice help your UFC goal?
I'll state my point again as several seem to have missed it. It seems to me that you (Judo-Kid) are practicing an art that doesn't fit your stated game plan of becoming UFC Champ.In doing so you have unwittingly shone interest in a Martial Art, rather than simple fighting techniques.

Kirk

01-12-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by fissure
Kirk,if only you had read my entire post!

- the "your" being Judo-Kid.

In reply to your question, no. Broom sticks and such are not often use inside of the UFC ring.

Lets look at what you said again, shall we?

Originally posted by fissure
It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets.

I wasn't aware that they had belt loops and pockets in their
typical clothing in the UFC. Since you're implying that UFC fighting
is the only thing you were talking about. Excuse the hell out of
me for "missing your entire point" here, but for some reason, be
it lack of grammar skills or misrepresenting yourself that you
meant the UFC, you didn't imply, infer or directly refer to the
UFC in this statement. I think the biggest thing was when you
stated "real life" instead of "UFC".

Originally posted by fissure
Thank you for missing the point entirely.

Thank you for making it so terribly.

fissure

01-12-2003, 05:59 PM

If you like we can both keep posting snippets of my original post. Alternatively you or anyone else can read in its entirety. I think when read as a whole it is clear that I am speaking to Judo-Kid alone in regard to his previously stated goals of UFC fame.
As to my being unclear on what I was talking about, please reread my last 3 sentances of the oringinal post. I agree that I should have used UFC instead of "real life", but again I think the overall post (and to whom it is made) makes my intent clear.

I saw a golden opportunity to try and point out the difference between fighting and Martial Arts to Judo-Kid. This was, and is, my purpose of posting so late in this thread. I was irritated when the focus was drawn away from this idea toward another "you don't know what my/our/their art is about" issue.

I wasn't aware that I had a lack of grammatical skills. At least I assume thats what you meant by "grammer skills".;) :D

fissure

01-12-2003, 06:02 PM

I'm also assuming that you will take the smiley faces to represent the proverbial "olive branch"

Kirk

01-12-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by fissure
I'm also assuming that you will take the smiley faces to represent the proverbial "olive branch"

Surely .. but I didn't misspell grammar.

fissure

01-12-2003, 06:18 PM

I wasn't aware that I had a lack of grammatical skills. At least I assume thats what you meant by "grammer skills".

No you didn't, but I'm fairly sure grammatical is the proper use in that context.
You see you said I had bad grammer, but used a slightly incorrect wording to say so, so I pointed out your ................................. it was meant to be funny.

J-kid

01-12-2003, 06:42 PM

I am training for ufc. But its not bad to have weapon training incase i find my self on the street under attack and i find a stick or somthing.

Kirk

01-12-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by fissure
No you didn't, but I'm fairly sure grammatical is the proper use in that context.
You see you said I had bad grammer, but used a slightly incorrect wording to say so, so I pointed out your ................................. it was meant to be funny.

Sorry ... I'll keep my eye out for it in the future ;)

bart

01-12-2003, 07:30 PM

I was about to post something about this snippet:

It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets.

But as it is addressed soley to Judo-kid, I'm going to start another thread that talks about this statement.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5544

bart

01-12-2003, 07:35 PM

there are certainly eskrima systems that are stick-only (e.g. Balintawak) or at least weapons-only

Balintawak is not stick-only. They don't do double stick, but some do espada y daga and I can't think of one style that doesn't do mano-mano/empty hands. As a matter of fact, some of the Balintawak practitioners take great pride in their empty hand skills.

Matt Stone

01-12-2003, 07:44 PM

Fissure -

I think that the reason you are catching flak about your replies to Judo-kid is based on your inexperience in relation to Filipino MA (FMA for short).

Judo-kid pointed out that:

Its always helpful for some weapons training also there trapping technics arnt bad ether.

While his spelling leaves tons to be desired, he makes his point simply - the trapping techniques (the appication of blocks and checks to "tie up" the opponent's attacking limbs) used in FMA to eliminate the opponent's ability to strike with a stick or knife, are equally applicable in empty handed situations, perhaps even moreso. This skill alone may well be responsible for quite a number of FMA converts from other arts.

With your background in TKD, judo and Shotokan, it is easy to understand the confusion regarding the intent in studying FMA, but were you to poll MMAists, there would likely be a large number responding in favor of studying FMA to bolster their defensive "standing game."

I have studied Modern Arnis as well as Yiliquan, and I have to admit that anymore I trap rather than simply block... I prefer to trap and secure an attacking strike rather than simply deflect and maybe grab it. Trapping also allows for deep penetration into the opponent's "real estate" when following through on strikes. By having his limb(s) trapped against him, it makes it extremely easy to control not only his limb responses, but to control where the rest of his body goes (making it very easy to direct him into friendly pieces of the environment, like car doors, bar stools, and toilets... :D ).

In addition to UFC, though, I suspect Judo-kid has the typical mid-teen desire to be the baddest SOB on his block. Learning how to use an innocuous weapon like an umbrella or rolled up newspaper as a fairly nasty weapon would appeal to just such a mindset with just such a goal... Hell, I'm 34 and it appeals to me too!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

MartialArtist

01-12-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by fissure
First, I must say I have zero experience in Escima or any other weapon training. For no particular reason weapon type arts have never interested me.
My question is for the thread starter, Judo-Kid. From reading your numerous posts throughout this board, it has been my understanding that your goal was to become a "great" fighter and win in UFC type competition (and possibly the hotly contested "tuff guy on the block" events). If this is so why train in Escrima at all? This is obviously not going to help you in the afore mentioned endeavors, as I don't think they allow participants to whack each other with sticks (well maybe in the neighborhood championship thing its O.K.).
It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets. As you have stated, your only interested in tech. for UFC type fighting. Stick fighting obviously doesn't fit this mold. If your not careful, someone may accuse you of trying to learn an ART. \
So are you saying a pipe, bat, stick, etc. are never used in real life?

Kiz Bell

01-12-2003, 08:29 PM

It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life.

OK Fissure, I'm taking your "real life" to read "UFC" here. In addition to points raised by Yiliquin1 above, learning a weapons art can aid one in timing, distance, co-ordination and fitness as well. Becoming a champion in a sport like UFC, where contenders typically have trained in a number of arts, would be aided by studying a wide variety of arts.

Judo-Kid, have your goals changed? Is becoming a UFC champ. no longer your intent? If so then I agree, weapon training could be helpfull. If not then how is does weapon practice help your UFC goal?
I'll state my point again as several seem to have missed it. It seems to me that you (Judo-Kid) are practicing an art that doesn't fit your stated game plan of becoming UFC Champ.In doing so you have unwittingly shone interest in a Martial Art, rather than simple fighting techniques.

I far as I can tell from his posts, Judo-Kid wants both, to be a great, well rounded Martial Artist AND a UFC champion. (But that's for him to say, I suppose.) What's wrong with wanting to be a UFC champ and the learn "art" side of martial arts at the same time? UFC champ cannot be a lifeling goal, if you do achieve it, you achieve it young and lose it young. There are no old UFC champions. Why not have an art to fall back on when your sporting championship has come and gone? There are old Escrima practitioners.

As to J-K having "unwittingly shown interest in a Martial Art", Judo-Kid has shown all along a whole lot more interest in the Martial Arts than most fighting enthusiasts I've met. Interest in fighting comps like UFC and the more general martial arts do not have to be mutually exclusive.