Is the ITF Cultish?

[FruitLoopy]

Does anyone else find this closed mindedness and self righteous thinking of the ITF cultish?

[Bagatha]

Sometimes. But then after awhile you realize it stems from the same group of people so you can just roll your eyes a bit.

[Marginal]

Which ITF? ;)

You can find that element in pretty much any MA organization. Doesn't mean that that's representative of the whole though.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Marginal
Which ITF? ;)


Hahaha. They are all cultish with themselves. Or perhaps the appropriate word would be "clique' "

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Marginal
Which ITF? ;)

You can find that element in pretty much any MA organization. Doesn't mean that that's representative of the whole though.

That really only applies to the ones at the top. They still find it being a traitor, if you study another art.:asian:

[FruitLoopy]

Which ITF?

What, at present there are two .... ahhh... three or more??? "Will the Real ITF Please Stand Up?!" :confused:

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RCastillo
..... They still find it being a traitor, if you study another art.:asian:

not so

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by KennethKu
not so

The ones that are connected to Vienna think that way. The ones to the Generals son are more open minded.

[KennethKu]

Thankyou for that clarification.

[Klondike93]

They still find it being a traitor, if you study another art

That's the very reason I left the ITF, I was accused of "bastardizing" TKD by also studying kenpo. Their loss, now I just do kenpo and systema and rarely do any TKD stuff.


:asian:

[FruitLoopy]

Systema kicks Butt!!!

[TKDman]

Hmm.... Cultish...

White Robes with Colord belts... Chants at the beginning of class... strange bowing.. belt "ceremonies"..

MARTIAL ARTS ARE A CULT! AHH!

[Chronuss]

hey! we don't bow! we salute. you bow to things, not people.

[white dragon]

bow, slaute, whatever. The real issue is, how do you explain all the goat sacrificing? :D

[SRyuFighter]

Goat sacrificing?

[TKDman]

Salut? Armed forces and Nazi salut.

[white dragon]

Ok, I'm getting out of this one before the poo hits the fan...

[white belt]

When General Choi sightings start, then the ITF will classify as a cult. I was involved with a real MA cult over 20 years ago. The ITF, of which I am not a member, is just trying to follow tradition from what I have seen. A cult wants to take over your finances and severe your ties with outside influences such as family. Anyone seen these two things from the ITF?

white belt

[TkdWarrior]

well i havn't seen those two things in ITF... may be we r just different ?:rolleyes:
-TkdWarrior-

[SRyuFighter]

I definitely don't think that it is a cult. It is just a different philosiphy and "spin" on TKD.

[Bagatha]

I dont fully agree with that definition of a cult. A cult is not always something profoundly negative. Anyone who goes to church/temple is involved with a cult as far as I am concerned.


Originally posted by white belt
When General Choi sightings start, then the ITF will classify as a cult. I was involved with a real MA cult over 20 years ago. The ITF, of which I am not a member, is just trying to follow tradition from what I have seen. A cult wants to take over your finances and severe your ties with outside influences such as family. Anyone seen these two things from the ITF?

white belt

[white belt]

Well, I've always followed the Blue Oyster Cult. They're not all bad. "Agents of Fortune" rocks! :)

So, Bagatha there is an example of a "good" cult. Do you think the ITF is a cult? I haven't seen any signs myself. You are a member, no?

I think the original question denotes a connotation of negativity, as in closed minded. The original thread starter could jump in here and clarify for us!

Elvis has a cult following. A few Sociologists have even predicted that Elvis will be the start of a new religion in the near future. They cite the patterns of other religions that have evolved. Being seen after death, pilgrimages to his dwelling and birth place, etc. Church of the Big Hair. Hound Dogs, instead of Cows, would be sacred. The Ministers would all wear white jumpsuits and blue suede shoes.
Fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches as sacrament. No "Amen" just "Ahow, Ahow"! When services end, the ministers would shout "Elvis has left the building!". Bad cult?

What would the ITF TKD version be?

:)
white belt

[Marginal]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cult

Cult generally has a negative connotation vs a religion. Either way, TKD doesn't strike me as cultish in general.

[Bagatha]

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
Date: 1617
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
- cul·tic /'k&l-tik/ adjective
- cult·ish /-tish/ adjective
- cult·ish·ly /-lE/ adverb
- cult·ish·ness /-n&s/ noun
- cult·ism /'k&l-"ti-z&m/ noun
- cult·ist /'k&l-tist/ noun
- cult·like /-"lIk/ adjective

[Bagatha]

^^ Yeah I think its cultish. For the most part.

I mean some people practically worship the founders every word. I dont personally, and alot of people dont. I mean people who have read his autobiography usually see 1 of 2 things.

a. A true mans man filled with wisdom, courage, devotion, and valor.

OR

b. A small man both literally and figuratively who acted in his adulthood what he missed out on as a child, being a little spoiled bully.

Most people I think see choice "a".

The first thing you are taught is how great General Choi is. At the very least, when you walk out that door after the first day of training, you know who created TKD. Its bred into you, almost like a brainwashing. "General Choi is great" ,"TKD is the most scientific MA in the world", "Black belts are gods". (being sarcastic here but the point remains.) The protocol itself is very cultish in nature, as someone mentioned previously. Beyond the bowing, it dictates when you can and cant speak, stand, sit, etc. Right down to the way you clink glasses after a toast. The world revolves around the senior belt. What an ego trip that must be LOL.

[Marginal]

Mmm... Seems that cult in current usage tends to favor my definition more. (Shrug) After Heaven's Gate, Jonestown etc, most don't appreciate being lumped into the same category simply because they elect to do something like sit on an uncomfortable wooden bench for an hour per week, so the term's diverging from what the derivation was when people were pulling context from books in 1950 etc.

That aside, I still don't see the ITF being especially cultish, at least in comparison to say, Republicans who follow the strict party line without thinking, Shotokan practitioners who idolize their founder etc. There's that element in any organization, and more often than not, they're the ones that are politically motivated and end up in positions of power (and thusly cause annoying issues like splits.) ;)

IMO a MA cult is better described by that place that claims to let people train there for three years "free". (Budo House was it?) Rather than a collection of people who are a tad too enamored with their particular organization.

Was funny to see how catty the ITF folks got on a few ITF mailing lists towards the USTF once it broke away tho.