Discussion on using the term Girls for Women in Class

[KEritano]

Hello Ladies
I need your input. I teach Modern Arnis/Balintawak in a small club. Right now it is half women and half men and things seem to go pretty smoothly. I have just changed our training location which gives me the opportunity to expand our club. We were meeting once a week for about an hour and a half. The new location will allow us to train longer as well as bring in new people. I am going to have a women's only time slot. We'll do 6:30 to 7:30 just for the girls then 7:30 to 9 as a mixed session. The girls will be able to stay for the second session if they want. It will be totally optional. I am doing this split because every time I mention a women's only class I see raised eyebrows and hear "Oh! I like that" so I'm going to give it a try. Here's where I need you guys. What do I need to do and not do in a women's only class. The only thing that is etched in stone is having me as the instructor. Other than that I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks
Sal (Cebu West-WMAA)

Sir -
I'm a little confused by the "women's only" time slot, then the "6:30 to 7:30 just for the girls". If you meant adult female for 6:30 to 7:30 class, then please say women. Personally, as an adult, I'd be very offended to be referred to as a "girl".

As for a female-only class, great idea. Excellent opportunity to concentrate on self-defense and even sparring.

[KamonGuy2]

Sir -
I'm a little confused by the "women's only" time slot, then the "6:30 to 7:30 just for the girls". If you meant adult female for 6:30 to 7:30 class, then please say women. Personally, as an adult, I'd be very offended to be referred to as a "girl".

As for a female-only class, great idea. Excellent opportunity to concentrate on self-defense and even sparring.
Really? You get offended by being called a girl?
Sorry to sidetrack, but this makes me curious. I was training with a female colleagues and she was outraged because our Master had mentioned the words 'female students'.
What is wrong with 'girl'. I certainly don't mind being called boy, and I too am an adult!

Not criticizing, just interested

[Kacey]

Really? You get offended by being called a girl?
Sorry to sidetrack, but this makes me curious. I was training with a female colleagues and she was outraged because our Master had mentioned the words 'female students'.
What is wrong with 'girl'. I certainly don't mind being called boy, and I too am an adult!

Not criticizing, just interested

Well, I can't speak for KEritano - but for myself, often it's "men over here, girls over there" - and in that type of circumstance, yes, being called a girl is offensive to me. I am female - no problem being called a female student, or a woman, or a lady - unless it is to differentiate me from the male students in a discriminatory way, in which case, yes, I would be offended. I am a martial artist first when I am in the dojang; my gender comes second when I am training - a martial artist who is female, not a female martial artist.

[shesulsa]

I suppose I've reached an age where I no longer resent being called a "girl" when I know it's not intended as an insult.

[Rich Parsons]

Well, I can't speak for KEritano - but for myself, often it's "men over here, girls over there" - and in that type of circumstance, yes, being called a girl is offensive to me. I am female - no problem being called a female student, or a woman, or a lady - unless it is to differentiate me from the male students in a discriminatory way, in which case, yes, I would be offended. I am a martial artist first when I am in the dojang; my gender comes second when I am training - a martial artist who is female, not a female martial artist.

Hmmm, good points.

I use Guys and Girls or sometimes Ladies.

I use men and women.

I use Gentlemen and Ladies.

I even use male and female.

When I use one from a pair I use the other.

In the first neither is meant as an insult or level of skill or what have you, only a form of address.

Now in martial arts I do not remember pairing people of by sex. I have said "Find a partner your size." or "Find someone you are comfortable working with. Preference given to the underbelts."

I could see how you presented the example could be insulting even if not intentional.

So, in general discussion if I go, "Hey Guys" and it is a mixed group am I being insulting even though I did not mean it? I use a more formal address with women, is that an insult?

On the other hand, I also make comments like "She isn't going to hit . . . meeeee" - where my head snaps back and I slide down while saying "me". Not out of disrespect but out of the fact that anyone can touch another and that even the smallest women could hit me and knock me out. Now this comment is never made in class. This is usually made while out with people and the situation is fine with a joke. Usually in class it is me trying to get them to realize it is ok to hit me. I have a rubber nose, it does not hurt. Practice on me, so it is done right and then they know how to do it properly. Now the guys I usually do not have to tell them to hit me more than twice. They swing and stop. I reach out and hit them in the shoulder. Then I smile and tell them to hit me in the face. I usually block or pass, but sometimes I miss or let one go through so I can see if they would have really hit me. I guess I treat people differently. Be they male or female. If they need more coaching to hit someone I work with them on it. If they need more attention I give it, not based upon their sex but on how they are acting.

Sorry for the ramble I was all over on this post.

[KamonGuy2]

Your instructor seperates you into men and women? Why do they do that?

I can see your point if someone is using 'men' and 'girls'. I'd be annoyed if someone said 'women' and 'boys'!!

Don't take the whole name thing to heart though. There are some instructors who slip up, and taking a class is quite stressful. If the instructor does it in a derogatory way then that should be examined.

You have to remember that the class still belongs to the instructor and he has the right to address you in the way the martial art suggests. In some schools, women will be called sijee or madam etc.

I have been called 'little girl' by instructors before, but that is old school mentality. Just like a fitness instructor calling you fat to motivate you

If the instructor is sexist or racist, the best thing is to leave and depending on the comments maybe report him

[KEritano]

Well, I can't speak for KEritano - but for myself, often it's "men over here, girls over there" - and in that type of circumstance, yes, being called a girl is offensive to me. I am female - no problem being called a female student, or a woman, or a lady - unless it is to differentiate me from the male students in a discriminatory way, in which case, yes, I would be offended. I am a martial artist first when I am in the dojang; my gender comes second when I am training - a martial artist who is female, not a female martial artist.

Excellent points and well-stated.

It's very offensive when adult males are called "men" or "guys" and adult females are called "girls". "Girls" are not adults, they are children. As a student I expect, and should receive, the same level of respect as my male counterparts. This is simple, common courtesy, not an over-reaction.

I've been in a class where males were called "Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones", yet the females were addressed by their first names. In many cases the rank and age were equilivant.

Yes, slip-ups happen and that's not the issue. It's when females are treated as second-class or inferior, it's wrong, plain and simple.

I may not jump as high or break as many boards as my male counterpart, yet I can execute with technical proficiency and understand the theory & principles as well as the next student. Learning how to defend oneself and gaining confidence crosses gender and age.

I do not wish to offend anyone with my comments, they are my feelings and beliefs. And many other women feel the same way.

[qi-tah]

I have been called 'little girl' by instructors before, but that is old school mentality. Just like a fitness instructor calling you fat to motivate you


:erg: Woah... motivate you to what??! Break their nose?

[shesulsa]

This is getting a little off topic here. Cebu West started a class for women only at the apparent pre-approval of the women in question and they feel better suited to mix it up with the guys now.

Read the earlier portions of the thread, and if we need to discuss suffrage we can start another thread.

[KamonGuy2]

:erg: Woah... motivate you to what??! Break their nose?
It is just one way to motivate people. Like the whole carrot and the stick argument. It might not be right, but it certainly does make you become stronger. Triumph over adversity and all that.

One of my old wing chun instructors didn't bother to know my name and used to call me Big Boy!!

Whilst it was a bit nasty, they were some of the best lessons I ever had

[KEritano]

It is just one way to motivate people. Like the whole carrot and the stick argument. It might not be right, but it certainly does make you become stronger. Triumph over adversity and all that.

One of my old wing chun instructors didn't bother to know my name and used to call me Big Boy!!

Whilst it was a bit nasty, they were some of the best lessons I ever had

Yeah, once I was told I throw like a boy. So the next time I fielded the ground ball I rifled it over to the first baseperson and nearly knocked him on his behind. The coach then said, that's more like it. :)

[theletch1]

This is getting a little off topic here. Cebu West started a class for women only at the apparent pre-approval of the women in question and they feel better suited to mix it up with the guys now.

Read the earlier portions of the thread, and if we need to discuss suffrage we can start another thread.
We'll see what I can do.:)

In my school there is currently one woman training...my wife. She has never had a problem mixin it up with the guys...that attitude is one of the things I love about her. We have, however, had many women come and go in our dojo and with few exceptions they were very timid about training with the men. Now, I train aikido so I don't know just how much "mixin it up" can be applied to the training at the lower levels, but aikido is a very up close an personal art. We have batted several ideas around for retaining women in our dojo and an all womens class has been one of the ideas...even to the extent of having my wife be the instructor. I can certainly see where training with other women for a while until you're more comfortable with the art would be an advantage.

[exile]

This is getting a little off topic here...Read the earlier portions of the thread, and if we need to discuss suffrage we can start another thread.

Right, I think Shesulsa's point is, let's focus on the discussion of usage here.

Here are my observations. An awful lot of times, I've heard women refer to other women, or women in general, via the term `girl'—but what's crucially important here, as I think Rich was suggesting earlier, is what term is used for the male analogue. Almost always, if my informal observations are accurate, when women use `girl' for other women, they use `guy' as the male contrast terms. Not `men'. I've also heard women contrast `girl' (for adult human female) with `boy' (adult human male). But I cannot recall ever hearing a woman talk about `girls' on the one hand vs. `men' on the other. If we're talking `men' for the adult males, we're talking `women' for the adult females. I think I've heard the terms `men' and `ladies' matched up (never `women' and `gentlemen', though... not sure what that means').

I suspect that `guys' has become leeched of its `adult' meaning and, in some cases and contexts, even its `male' component (the `Hey you guys' to include both men and women is a bit of evidence here). So the permitted girls/guys but not girls/women contrast in the usage by women that I've noticed is evidence of language change in progress. Once `Guy' was simply a male adult's given name (`Guy Fawkes', would-be assassin of the whole House of Commons), then it went through a series of extensions of meaning, and now it seems to be fragmented into both specific male senses (`Ladies over here, guys over here' is something I remember in some context) and a more general `human being sense' (`OK, guys, let me explain how we're doing this' sort of thing; I heard women as well as men do this on many occasions).

The crucial question is, what is `girls' being contrasted with? Based on the usage I've noted amongst my women friends, `girls' (adult females) is OK for women when contrasted with `boys' (adult males) or `guys'. It's definitely not OK when contrasted with `(gentle)men', `dudes' and a few other emphatically adult- marked terms for men. To me that suggests that many women, at least, don't find `girls' offensive, as long as the matching term for men doesn't include being an adult as part of its core sense...

As I say, these are just my own informal `notes' on usage based on what I've oberserved in women's speech I've observed. This is really a job for the lexicographers....

[bluemtn]

I think it depends on the instructor. In other words: is he/ she known for saying such remarks in a negative manner?

[MBuzzy]

I think it depends on the instructor. In other words: is he/ she known for saying such remarks in a negative manner?

This is a great point...Personal opinion (not being a woman though) is that it depends how the term is used. If it is obviously being used in a derogatory manner, that is unacceptable.

But in most cases like this, it is not intended to be an insult or derogatory. Being in the military, I have to be VERY conscious of my usage of terms like this, so as not to offend anyone. I also use the term "guys" to address large groups of people. SO FAR, no one has been offended that I know of.

Bottom line is - just as in many situations like this, it is important to look at how the person making the statement is intending the statement. It is easy to tell if they are trying to insult you or not. If something they say does insult you, in most cases, simply mentioning it to them will solve the problem.

[Kacey]

I think it depends on the instructor. In other words: is he/ she known for saying such remarks in a negative manner?

This is, I think, a key point - how the term is intended is as important as the term itself. Being the MAs are still, in many places, male dominated, I've been called "sir" more times than I can count... often followed by stammering, stuttering, embarrassed apologies by people who are accustomed to calling all seniors "sir", because I'm the only senior in the area who's female. The flip side of that, of course, is the number of times my students have called my sahbum "ma'am" - because that is the term of respect they use most often. Neither case is derogatory; it is an error based on habit, rather than an intentional or unintentional slur.

The instances in which I have problems, as I stated previously, is when men are referred to by terms for adult males, and women are referred to by terms for juvenile females... and the attitude of the instructor is that the males are adults and the females are not, even when all present are adults.

[KEritano]

I think it depends on the instructor. In other words: is he/ she known for saying such remarks in a negative manner?

In part, this is valid point. Still, if an adult female expresses they do not wish to be referred to as a girl, her request should be honored.

I've been in a situation where originally all adults were addressed with Mr., Mrs.. Miss or Ms. Then it changed and the instructor addressed the men as "Mr. X" and the women were addressed by their first names. The women never requested this change. It just happened. Again, age and rank were equilivant between the sexes, this included Black Belts.

Did this offend me? Yes. Did I throw a "fit" over it? No.

Here's another small item. I normally request to be address with Ms. I do this anywhere where the men are addressed with Mr. Why? Because my martial status should be on the same playing field as my male counterparts. I decide to when and where to share my martial status, it isn't a title I need to carry around. Married women were thought to less dedicated and family issues would cause them to miss work. Yet, men never had this distinction thrush upon them. I wanted first to be thought of as an individual, not as someone's wife.

Thesemay appear as small, insignificant things. Yet it all adds up to being respected as an individual and not automatically being considered 2nd to your male counterpart.

These thoughts and opinions are based on my life experiences. Some dating back to the time of black & white TVs, rotary phones and party lines.

[Ceicei]

I've been thinking about this for quite a while. Maybe my thoughts would be better off in a different thread under School Management. However, the subject (the gender role) in this thread is related and is the main concern.

Someday, I plan to open a martial arts school. On more than one occasion, I've been given strong advice to always be sure to get a very good "male business partner". I've been told this does not necessarily mean that a female cannot run a martial arts school alone, the so-called "reality" is the perception out there in society. Martial Arts is still considered a "male domain". For a female to own and run a school alone, some people may question her competency. They say that in light of this "reality", the success of the school may be better if there is a business partner who is male.

My main concern, however, is having the presence of a male business partner would probably mean more people would give preference to him rather than the female school owner, even if the decisions made were by her.

It does put a damper on my ambitions though.

- Ceicei

[Tez3]

We call everyone by their first name, instructors included. I answer to Irene or Tez, either, I don't mind. "Guys" I tend to think of as an American term applicable as far as I can tell to either gender. I can't remember when I was last called a girl. It's not always a word used over here, I get called lass a lot, females are called lasses in Yorkshire, it's not offensive. The men are the 'lads'.
British men, depending on where they come from, when talking to a woman will call her.... pet, flower, chuck, hen, m'duck, my love, petal, hinny,m'dear, my lover ( that is actually used by both sexes to either sex, it's a West country thing) quean (pronouced kwine from Aberdeen Scotland, the male equilivant is loon) none of these is meant in an offensive way. Men will often call each other 'mate. (Awright mate?)

[bookworm_cn317]

It doesn't bother me. I STILL call myself a girl--and I'm 26!

[exile]

My main concern, however, is having the presence of a male business partner would probably mean more people would give preference to him rather than the female school owner, even if the decisions made were by her.

It does put a damper on my ambitions though.
- Ceicei

Ceicei, do not let it do that. Quality will out, I'm convinced of that. Women are senior pilots on 747s, directors of downhill ski schools, and chairs of math and physics departments—all of them domains which for a long time seemed as inaccessible to women in their respective fields as the summit of Mt. Everest is to the casual day hiker. But it's happened, and will happen in many other previously `closed' areas. If you are a good instructor and school director, people will come to you for high-quality instruction, driven by the desire to become proficient themselves, and basing their trust in you on the recommendations of others who are acquainted with your worth first-hand. If you keep at it, and focus on the needs of your students, as I know you will, you'll probably wind up with more business than you can handle, whether or not you go with a male business partner. So please don't be discouraged.

The change we're talking about here will not happen overnight, any more than the kind of terminological equality between men and women that's the subject of this thread will become the rule in all places everywhere tomorrow. But that's happening too, slowly and surely. I remember when `Ms.' was introduced as an analogue of `Mr.' back in the 1960s, and how marked it was then. Now it's the unquestioned default term in the academic world and from everything I've heard, increasingly so in the business world as well. Gender equity is one area where I think the signs are hopeful.

[KamonGuy2]

What you have to remember (and this will cause a stir) is that men and women are not equal. Man is built differently to women, giving different advantages to both. Women have differently built hips and skeletal structure meaning that they are able to do things most men can't

Biochemically men and women are different and have different reactiosn to situations. I have noticed that when I do chi sao with women, they are naturally more relaxed than men. Not all the time, but mostly

I agree 100% that a person should not be treated badly because of their gender (it does work both ways), but there are situations where discrimination does happen and should

You can't have male door staff checking female clubbers for instance.
You can't have male police officers searching female criminals

Discrimination is rife, but it has to happen sometimes

It is like the case I heard of where a fat guy wanted to be a fitness instructor. He was turned down purely because he was fat.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

See, I fail to understand the issue here. Women against derogatory inferences? Being a woman is enough cause for beration. Whether we call you ladies, Women, or Daffy Broads, a rose by any other name still stinks. So quit complaining, get back in the kitchen, and fetch me a beer, chick.














OK. So I don't feel that way at all, and it's been a while since I've given it consideration, beause I consider all of my students equal. The only function rank on a waist serves is to let me know what they've been exposed to, so I can judge what level of expertise I ought to expect form them or drive them to. Something I do that might actually be considered boorish...I don't grant leeway to women. I expect them to dig just as deep and hit just as hard as the men, and think instructors are insulting women when holding them to a different standard, or to a modified cirriculum.

In what universe should women be provided a sub-par technical core? Since when is it OK to expect less of a student because of gender? Gender is not a handicap, and should not be molly-coddled as one. Why do I mention this? I was at a judo class about a year ago, and the instructor leading the warm-up ha different requirements for women than for men. Men might have to do 20 back breakfalls, but wopmen only 5. Less was asked from them, because they were the "weaker, gentler sex", and would lack the same innate athleticism as the men in class. This seemed way more insulting than anything he could have called them. And, in my mind, short-changed them from developing the skill level they're hoping to develop through participation. Will the ground come at them any slower, or the concrete be any softer, because of gender? No. Nature and force don't see a gender difference; neither should we in preparing for it.

D.

[CoryKS]

It's clear that it's not a unanimous decision among the females that being referred to as 'girl' is offensive. I have close friends who frequently use the term 'going out with the girls' when their male partners are not in attendance. So while one may object to the practice, I don't think it's reasonable to ask that others change to suit one's preferences.

It would, of course, be wonderful to change the whole world so that it is more to one's liking, but the fact is that the other 7 billion or so people get a say in it too.

[Kacey]

It's clear that it's not a unanimous decision among the females that being referred to as 'girl' is offensive. I have close friends who frequently use the term 'going out with the girls' when their male partners are not in attendance. So while one may object to the practice, I don't think it's reasonable to ask that others change to suit one's preferences.

It would, of course, be wonderful to change the whole world so that it is more to one's liking, but the fact is that the other 7 billion or so people get a say in it too.

Some terms are offensive outside the group, but not inside. Various slang terms for racial/cultural groups are highly offensive when used by people not inside the group, while they are affectionate and unoffensive when used within the group... I'd give examples, but they'd all get bleeped out by the profanity filter. As has been said, it's how the word is intended that is the problem - not necessarily the word itself - which is why the context has been discussed as well as the terminology.

[Ella]

Hmmm..

I think it REALLY depends on the context.

even if my instructor said "men, over here, girls, over there" I don't think I would be offended. I think it depends on how the person MEANT it. In my perfect world, people should be judged on what they mean, not what they say.

[kicksindabank]

I can see both points. When I am with the chica, I will either say chica or homegirls.

If am in mix company, then I will call all females, ladies. As for myself, I call myself, bad mammajamma!

That is just me.

[KamonGuy2]

Also, what age distinguishes girls from women?

Women are different than men and in some schools women may feel more comfortable going with a woman than a man.

It is the same at my gym at work. A lot of the females that work here have asked for their own 'time' in the gym for women only

Some women like being seperated from the men, some don't. I just think there shouldn't be an issue unless you know that there is prejudice going on

In Kamon, some women are graded/progressed faster so that it encourages women to join if they see a female who is of high skill
This is just because there is a shortage of females in Kamon

[Sukerkin]

A most appropriate thread for me to read as I thoughtlessly trod in this on Saturday :o :lol:.

I had been doing some instruction and it had been a very productive session and after bowing out I reflexively said "Thank you, gentlemen." at which Beverley indignantly piped up (with a laugh) "I'm not a gentleman!" and I hastily tagged on an "And lady." ROFL.

Sometimes your tongue just betrays you, especially when you're fostering the mindset that gender is of no matter during training.

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know I always try to just use students first names and stay away from saying something refering to someones gender. The few rare instances when I have used a term would be when teaching a class of forty to fifty women where I did not know everyone's name and then I used the term ladies. The reason why I like to use people's first name is that I also enjoy it when people use my first name as well. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Drac]

In class I address my male students as Gentlemen and my female students as Ladies..

[Brian R. VanCise]

In class I address my male students as Gentlemen and my female students as Ladies..

Definately a good way to go Drac! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif (classy too http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif)

[Drac]

Definately a good way to go Drac! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif (classy too http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif)

Thanks Brian...Too many years on stage..

[KamonGuy2]

Thanks Brian...Too many years on stage..
Vampires!!! We must destroy them all!!! Before he turns his students!

[Drac]

Vampires!!! We must destroy them all!!! Before he turns his students!

Too late mortal scum ( insert evil laughter)...

[morph4me]

In class I address my male students as Gentlemen and my female students as Ladies..

When you used gentlemen at the M&G you should have seen all the confused looks, nobody knew who you were talking to:lol:

[KamonGuy2]

Too late mortal scum ( insert evil laughter)...

Oooooo maybe if you have a female vampire student I might join you.....

[Kacey]

Also, what age distinguishes girls from women?

Women are different than men and in some schools women may feel more comfortable going with a woman than a man.

It is the same at my gym at work. A lot of the females that work here have asked for their own 'time' in the gym for women only

Some women like being seperated from the men, some don't. I just think there shouldn't be an issue unless you know that there is prejudice going on

All of the above is true... but the question was not about separation of genders, but how they are addressed when together.

Having been addressed as one of the "girls" when the male members of the class were addressed as "men" - had it been girls and boys, I'd have had no problem - and that is the question in the original post: the gender inequity in addressing males with terms connoting adulthood, while simultaneously addressing females with terms connoting childhood. If it is unconscious and only occurs on rare occasions, it doesn't really bother me - but if it is consistent (unconscious or not) it often - not always, but often - indicates an attitude difference in how men and women are perceived, and thus how they are treated.


In Kamon, some women are graded/progressed faster so that it encourages women to join if they see a female who is of high skill This is just because there is a shortage of females in Kamon
If these women are truly being promoted because they deserve it - great! If they are being promoted because having more high-ranked women will increase the number of women who take Kamon... as a woman, were I to find out that I was promoted faster than a man of similar age and experience, to encourage women to join, I would be insulted by the lack of integrity that showed... and were I a woman who joined because of the example set by one of these women who was promoted quickly so that the higher ranked women could encourage other women to join, I would be disillusioned. Either way, I would leave, and find an art that treated my fairly based on my abilities - not my gender.

[KamonGuy2]

All of the above is true... but the question was not about separation of genders, but how they are addressed when together.

Having been addressed as one of the "girls" when the male members of the class were addressed as "men" - had it been girls and boys, I'd have had no problem - and that is the question in the original post: the gender inequity in addressing males with terms connoting adulthood, while simultaneously addressing females with terms connoting childhood. If it is unconscious and only occurs on rare occasions, it doesn't really bother me - but if it is consistent (unconscious or not) it often - not always, but often - indicates an attitude difference in how men and women are perceived, and thus how they are treated.


If these women are truly being promoted because they deserve it - great! If they are being promoted because having more high-ranked women will increase the number of women who take Kamon... as a woman, were I to find out that I was promoted faster than a man of similar age and experience, to encourage women to join, I would be insulted by the lack of integrity that showed... and were I a woman who joined because of the example set by one of these women who was promoted quickly so that the higher ranked women could encourage other women to join, I would be disillusioned. Either way, I would leave, and find an art that treated my fairly based on my abilities - not my gender.
I agree. The women didn't. They revelled in the fact that they were double grading etc. And in this instance we found that men were being treated unfairly. But it goes to show that discrimination occurs for both genders, which is something the women/girls/females should perhaps remember

[Drac]

Oooooo maybe if you have a female vampire student I might join you.....

Actually I have quite a few..

[Drac]

When you used gentlemen at the M&G you should have seen all the confused looks, nobody knew who you were talking to:lol:

LOL....Hey, we are getting WAY off topic here..Let's get back to the subject at hand..

[KamonGuy2]

Actually I have quite a few..

Really?? And did they help turn the other female students....?

[Phoenix44]

It doesn't bother me. I STILL call myself a girl--and I'm 26!


Well I'm 51, and I most certainly do not refer to myself as a "girl." Whether or not it's meant to be derogatory, "girls" are children, and when a group of female adults are referred to as "girls," it's diminutive. I would avoid it.

[RachelK]

I don't mind being called a girl but I'm very easygoing about stuff like that. If someone's being disrespectful towards me or towards women in general, then I might have an issue, but I don't consider being referred to as a "girl" as inherently disrespectful. I do agree with what you all wrote about the parallel usage of "men/girls" that would be a little off-putting. However, if we're dividing our class up into small groups for exercises and my instructor says, "let's not have all the girls in one group, mix it up, please" I don't get offended by that usage.

I have never heard someone refer to their significant other as my "manfriend" or "womanfriend" although I have heard "lady friend." Many adults still use "boyfriend" and "girlfriend."

I guess it's all about context. If some young teenager were to call me "honey," I'd probably think he was being out-of-line. If the old geezer who owns the deli where I buy my coffee says, "Thanks, honey" as I pay him, I don't get bent out of shape. Brits and Southerners of both genders have called me all kinds of affectionate names and I don't consider that disrespectful.

Of course, that's a totally subjective matter and anyone who objects to being called "a girl" is entitled not to be called that. At the same time, it may take some gentle prompting to make sure that other people know you object to that term.

[Lynne]

Our instructors refer to as Ladies/Gentlemen as Drac refers to his students.

I would not be offended by "girl" however. I'm easygoing. I don't consider it disrespectful.

The older I get, maybe the better I would like "girl." :D

[NDNgirl4ever]

I don't mind being called a girl but I'm very easygoing about stuff like that. If someone's being disrespectful towards me or towards women in general, then I might have an issue, but I don't consider being referred to as a "girl" as inherently disrespectful. I do agree with what you all wrote about the parallel usage of "men/girls" that would be a little off-putting. However, if we're dividing our class up into small groups for exercises and my instructor says, "let's not have all the girls in one group, mix it up, please" I don't get offended by that usage.


I agree. I don't mind being called 'girl' either. I can think of a lot of worse things you could call me.:) I think it's a bit silly to be offended by things like that, it's really not that big of a deal.



If these women are truly being promoted because they deserve it - great! If they are being promoted because having more high-ranked women will increase the number of women who take Kamon... as a woman, were I to find out that I was promoted faster than a man of similar age and experience, to encourage women to join, I would be insulted by the lack of integrity that showed
Me too.

[yumeiko]

I personally don't mind being called a girl. I would probably however, be offended if I was referred to as a girl and the the boys in my class referred to as men. I wouldn't even mind being called a guy, as in "okay, guys lets partner up for this exercise" girls and guys is fine. I think boys and girls is slightly juvenile. men and women almost seems too formal actually. though that might be just because my class is all college age students. I think guys is the best, but guys and girls is definitely alright.