Has anyone heard of this group? I would be interested in hearing experiences and opinions on here or through email.

Thanks.

This is the link to their main page.

http://www.torakendo.com/index2.htm

I don't know anything about this group. I note that the founder is a 50ish man, who goes by the title:


Dr. James R. Cherry
(Shodai / Soke)


and has 5 fifth degree black belts, 2 seventh degree black belts, as well as the tenth degree in his system. I also note this:


On March 18, 2000 Dr. Ron Cherry (Soke) Performed an Inheritor/Successorship ceremony, and handed the system and organization to Ray Ferrell (Kyoshi) making him the (Nidai Soke) or (present Head of Family) and 2nd generation Soke to the Toraken Ryu Arts.


This sends up a lot of warning signs. You might also ask at www.e-budo.com but I would tread cautiously.

Gassho.
This organisation has nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo, despite the similarity of names. Any westerner who calls himself "Soke", however, clearly doesn't understand the iemoto system. I'd red flag this immediately. Note also that his HQ is in America, not Japan, despite the "soke" appellation.
Kesshu.

why would his headquarters have to be in Japan?

Originally posted by nightingale8472
why would his headquarters have to be in Japan?
What does "soke" mean?

I have absolutely no clue. I don't speak Japanese. I practice AMERICAN kenpo, and we speak English in class.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I have absolutely no clue. I don't speak Japanese. I practice AMERICAN kenpo, and we speak English in class.
I practice Shorinji Kempo, and we use Japanese for all technical terms and instructions. Our headquarters is in Japan. Why do you use a Japanese name for an art that has no connections with Japan?
"American Kenpo"? That's like mixing Latin and German.

You still haven't answered my question about why his headquarters would have to be in Japan.

and its called American Kenpo because that's what Mr. Parker chose to call it. If you have an issue with that, perhaps you'll have the priveledge of meeting him in the afterlife, and you can ask him to explain.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
You still haven't answered my question about why his headquarters would have to be in Japan.

and its called American Kenpo because that's what Mr. Parker chose to call it. If you have an issue with that, perhaps you'll have the priveledge of meeting him in the afterlife, and you can ask him to explain.
Because if he's called "soke" it must be an iemoto system.
And there is no afterlife, so the point is moot, but I'd like to know why you name the art "kenpo", but not use any Japanese terms thereafter?

You still haven't told me the meaning of the word "soke". and a definition of the word "iemoto" would also be appreciated.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
You still haven't told me the meaning of the word "soke". and a definition of the word "iemoto" would also be appreciated.
Read this article (http://www.budodanmark.dk/NY/Artikler/Soke.htm) for an explanation of both the iemoto system, and why the application of the word "soke" is inappropriate in many MA.

For some information on 'what is' Kenpo please see here:
http://kenponet.tripod.com/flame/articles/chapel_cfw1.html

:asian:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Read this article (http://www.budodanmark.dk/NY/Artikler/Soke.htm) for an explanation of both the iemoto system, and why the application of the word "soke" is inappropriate in many MA.

IF! I understood that article, soke (or iemoto) mean the same thing, and is less of a title and more of a description for a group. (its late here so I'm forced to speed read)

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
IF! I understood that article, soke (or iemoto) mean the same thing, and is less of a title and more of a description for a group. (its late here so I'm forced to speed read)
It's a lineage of Japanese families, Kaith. Soke is the head of the family. It does NOT mean "founder", as so many people mistakenly think.

I saw that part, but the meaning seemed to change at time went on. I may have misread though. So, "Soke" is lineage, so basically what the folks misusing the term are saying is not Grandmaster Bob, but Family Tree Bob?

Ok, now I can go laugh at em. :)

hmm...

I interpreted it as more of a patriarch. not the founder, but the one currently reigning over the family.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I saw that part, but the meaning seemed to change at time went on. I may have misread though. So, "Soke" is lineage, so basically what the folks misusing the term are saying is not Grandmaster Bob, but Family Tree Bob?

Ok, now I can go laugh at em. :)
More than that; by definition, they must be Japanese. So Bob would have to be called "Bob-o". Kinda like "jell-o"...

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
More than that; by definition, they must be Japanese. So Bob would have to be called "Bob-o". Kinda like "jell-o"...

I'm working on that....diet, exercize, getting hit in the head with sticks.... :)

Ok, so its a term only for use within a Japanese family system, and couldn't be used within a Chinese or Okinawan system? (Just clarifying)

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I'm working on that....diet, exercize, getting hit in the head with sticks.... :)

Ok, so its a term only for use within a Japanese family system, and couldn't be used within a Chinese or Okinawan system? (Just clarifying)
Okinawans speak Japanese, so that wouldn't be a problem. Not Chinese, though. They have their own terminology.

Originally posted by Searcher
Has anyone heard of this group? I would be interested in hearing experiences and opinions on here or through email.

Thanks.

This is the link to their main page.

http://www.torakendo.com/index2.htm
Searcher,
I do not know much about the group, but I have known one of the members for about 20 years. Master Robert Zingg is a good friend and a damned fine Martial Artist. If you get in touch with Master Zingg, you will get honest no Bull-Shido answers.

Originally posted by Seig
Searcher,
I do not know much about the group, but I have known one of the members for about 20 years. Master Robert Zingg is a good friend and a damned fine Martial Artist. If you get in touch with Master Zingg, you will get honest no Bull-Shido answers.
This thread doesn't belong in the Shorinji Kempo forum, though; it's a completely separate art.

One of my students in moving to North Carolina. Is this a good school tecnique wise? I'm not asking if they are using the term Soke correctly or incorrectly. but if thet are reputable

Thanks

Interesting, I have studied (a little) about the term "Soke" and have found varying opinions on this as well (all from credible Japanese "traditionalist" types). It seems that it is ok to use the term Soke if your system is a lineage "famliel" system (not necessarily Martial Arts, but could apply to MA). I have also heard that to use the term Soke for a founder of a system is WRONG!!!! Well I find it interesting that the late Okuyama sensei of Hakko Ryu used the term as in Sodai-Soke (First Generation Head of Family) and the late Hayashi sensei of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu used the term Soke as well. It seems that the opinions keep going and going......As far as an American using the term (keeping in mind that the term has been misused and ABUSED by alot of Americans) but if it is ok for MA in the West to use terms such as Sensei, Shihan, Sempai, Kohai, etc, etc, it seems that Soke should be no different (when used correctly).
I certainly do not see the problem with a Westerner using Japanese terminology to tie their teachings to the source where they come from. It could be viewed as a way of honoring the past. Just a thought.
As far as Toraken Ryu...I have heard a little about the group and except some misunderstandings of the use of some Japanese terms that I have seen, I have heard they are ok guys that train hard.

I was in the Army in 1984 and studied under Dr. James Cherry as part of my SWAT / Counter-Terrorism and Hostage Rescue Training. He was awesome!!

I don't know anything about the group he has founded (AKKA), but I know that Dr. Cherry was a great teacher.

I know this is an old thread, but unless I'm mistaken, Dr. Cherry trained with either Albert Church or some of his people.
My own instructor did as well. I used to know some of the black belts from Dr. Cherry's schoo long ago, and their techniques were pretty good, as were their attitudes.