What is the 'MOST' well rounded system?

[geocad]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases? I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.

Also, I now live in Flagstaff, AZ and have not yet heard about or found something that covers most or all of the bases mentioned. I'm currently in TKD (MWS nights) with a little Hopkido thrown in too depending on the instructor that night. Way cool but the lesson ends once the person is on the ground with the exception of the so called 'finishing' strike/break. I also just found the only Judo club in the area and completed my second class last night (TTh nights). Between the two schools/clubs, I'm covering most of the bases I'm interested in but still some are left out. In addition, as a family man I can not dedicate most of my nights each week to MA away from the home.

Some may recall I've mention Hwa Rang Do in earlier posts. I'm biased with this system because it's one I spent most of my previous training in. It did/does cover all the bases I mentioned. Unfortunately, there isn't any instructors in my area now (they moved away years ago).

Ken/mpo 'sounds' like it may cover everything I mentioned but I'm not sure.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

~G

[Sukerkin]

I never found anything to complain about when I did Lau Gar Kung Fu.

I do believe wholeheartedly that the best style for anyone is the one that they find 'fits' them best.

I know that at the moment, with MMA being much vaunted and in the forefront of everyones mind, it's considered an old fashioned attitude but most arts contain everything that you're ever likely to need - they just train them with varying degrees of emphasis and in different orders.

[stoneheart]

Wado-ryu karate is a combination of jujutsu and shotokan karate.
Kajukenbo is an eclectic blend of karate, jujutsu,kenpo, and Chinese boxing.
Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 is American Kenpo altered to have some ground skills within it.

There are plenty of systems out there that attempt to have it all. Personally I study karate and aikido at the same time. Works for me. I have no ambitions to fight in the UFC, but I feel both disciplines actually blend well together and there's a true duality present where as I get better at one, it improves the other too.

I don't even think it's necessary to have a formal system in order to be well-rounded. There is a local "fight club" that I practice with pretty regularly. It's a combination of boxers, wrestlers, classical martial arts, etc that get together to spar twice a month. It's eye-opening to say the least. I pick up tips all the time from the nontraditional guys and vice versa.

[arnisador]

You'll need to find a good isntructor more than a good system for this. Consider people who teach a pair of complementary arts such as Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai and Sambo, or a Mixed Martial Arts gym.

[14 Kempo]

I do believe wholeheartedly that the best style for anyone is the one that they find 'fits' them best.

I totally agree with this statement. Simple as that.

[Kacey]

I do believe wholeheartedly that the best style for anyone is the one that they find 'fits' them best.

Ditto. If you don't like it, you won't train it - no matter how "well-rounded" it appears to be.

[theletch1]

When I read the thread title about "most well rounded" art I immediately thought of Sumo...they all look pretty round to me.:ultracool

[bushidomartialarts]

Absolutely agree that the best system is the one that fits best. Let's take it a step further.

Your system of choice is largely irrelevant. There are many paths to the mountain, but only one mountain. What's far more important is your relationship with your instructor, the quality of that instructor and the culture of your dojo.

If you think your current dojo isn't 'home', go visit everybody, regardless of style, until you find your home. It's out there somewhere.

If I remember right, there's an AKKA kenpo school in Flagstaff. The AKKA organiztation was a good home for me for many years. You may want to check them out, but only stay if they seem like a good home for you.

[JBrainard]

I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.

To add a caveat to some of the posts above, I just wanted to note that most (but certainly not all) of the American and MMA will be lacking in the eastern philosophy department.

[CuongNhuka]

Western Boxing is the most complete. It is even with Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Vovinam, Judo, Aikido, Shotokan, Cuong Nhu, Neko Ryu Goshin Jitsu, Eagle Claw, Wado Ryu, Kyokoshin-Kai, Arnis, Escrima, Kali, Espada Y Daga, Red Tiger, Black Tiger, White Tiger, Leopard, Red Dragon, Black Dragon, Monkey, Drunken Boxing, Serpant Boxing, Sumo, Tae Kwon Do, Capoirea, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Kenpo/Kempo, Lau Gar, Hung Gar, Kendo, Iaido, Shikendo, Kajukempo, Freestyle wrestling, Greaco-Roman Wrestling, WWE Wrestling, Sambo, Sanda, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Bokator Khmer, Jeet Kune Do, Brazillian Ju Jitsu.... OK, I ran out of styles I can think of. You get my point though

[Sukerkin]

Your system of choice is largely irrelevant. There are many paths to the mountain, but only one mountain. What's far more important is your relationship with your instructor, the quality of that instructor and the culture of your dojo.

If you think your current dojo isn't 'home', go visit everybody, regardless of style, until you find your home. It's out there somewhere.

That's a very good point and one very well expressed too, Bushido :rei:.

[Doc_Jude]

To add a caveat to some of the posts above, I just wanted to note that most (but certainly not all) of the American and MMA will be lacking in the eastern philosophy department.

In my experience, Martial Arts aren't the best place to look to for sound Philosophy. JMO.

[Monadnock]

In my experience, Martial Arts aren't the best place to look to for sound Philosophy. JMO.

I kind of agree. A lot of martial arts were borne out of the need to survive and later incorporated/looked to religion/philosophy. Doesn't mean you won't find it there, but you have to look deeply, and probably go beyond the dojo to learn more.

I don't know of many martial arts that created a philosophy. Most that have one are based on something external to the art, or something that already existed.

[Hawke]

Start visiting your local training halls. If you have a friend that studies MA can him/her along to help evaluate the dojos.

Spend some time with the instructor. If you like what you see sign up for a free class.

Keep looking even if you think you already found a home to make sure that is where you want to study. Take your time to find your dojo home.

Research potential instructors on the Net.

Good luck on your journey.

[CuongNhuka]

In my experience, Martial Arts aren't the best place to look to for sound Philosophy. JMO.

Find a Cuong Nhu school. O'Sensei founded the art as a supplement for the spiritual needs of the South Vietnamese people during their Civil War.

[Seabrook]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases? I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.



It is so dependent on the knowledge base of the teacher. As an American Kenpo instructor, my naturally tendency is give you the art that I study but there are loads of junky Kenpo out there too. My former Kung Fu instructor also has the full package in terms of knowledge base (full-contact fighting in a ring, groundfighting, kickboxing, forms, weapons, drills, ect) but like Kenpo, there is also some brutal Kung Fu out there. Same goes with Jiu Jitsu.

[terryl965]

geocad this is a loaded question, I really do not believe in one style but in one fighter, the fighter really makes up the style and it will always be that. Or at least in my book it is.

[Monadnock]

geocad this is a loaded question, I really do not believe in one style but in one fighter, the fighter really makes up the style and it will always be that. Or at least in my book it is.

+1

I could put everything geocad is looking for on paper, but that wouldn't make the system if I couldn't pull off all the moves. If you have a teacher that can give you what you're looking for then that's the system for you.

[Josh Oakley]

So from what I've found most things from the kajukenbo line are incredibly well-rounded.

[Josh Oakley]

I kind of agree. A lot of martial arts were borne out of the need to survive and later incorporated/looked to religion/philosophy. Doesn't mean you won't find it there, but you have to look deeply, and probably go beyond the dojo to learn more.

I don't know of many martial arts that created a philosophy. Most that have one are based on something external to the art, or something that already existed.

Well, the Shaolin immediately come to mind...

[Andy Moynihan]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases?




None of them. If one did, there'd be no need for the others. Go. Absorb. Create. Grow. Eat Pizza.

[K831]

1.) The instructor and his skill / experience / teaching methods
2. The student and his athleticism / dedication
3. The quality of the style and how well it suits the individual's strengths and abilities.

I have had the best luck in terms of learning efficient, quality material from; Western Boxing / FMA's (namely Kali) and AKKI Kenpo, which is where I choose to study now.

[Carol]

Don't rule out Filipino styles. Many folks associate FMA schools with stick and knife, but many styles have empty hand and clinch work as well as dumog (combat groundfighting)

Good luck :)

[jks9199]

I think there are several to many systems that attempt to include "it all." Many address "it all" in some fashion; after all, combat systems adapt to the needs of combat or they die out. But, just because a system may contain elements that address stand up fighting, ground fighting, weapons, etc., doesn't mean that any single practitioner will be skilled in all of it. I can do some grappling; I can do some throws; I can use sticks and swords and guns and more... But, my "bread and butter" is striking and some stand up grappling or holds. That's where I've spent most of my effort in training.

In the end, the old adage is the truth. It's not the system, it's the practitioner.

But, you also have to decide what your goals are. Are you looking at competition -- or law enforcement defensive tactics? Or self defense? Or mental and spiritual development? While many systems can answer multiple yesses to these questions, that doesn't mean that they'll address them all equally well. Or that they're interchangeable.

[jonbey]

Really you need to consider what you want to learn. Don't rule out training in more than one style at a time. So learning kung-fu and BJJ, or boxing and escrima, or wrestling and karate.

Some styles are well rounded, but then how long do you have to train to learn it all? The style I learn as many weapons, grappling, floor work, kicking, a plethora of strikes, chi gung, etc. but it will be years before I have learned it all, and even longer before I am well trained in each part.

So really, decide what you want to learn, and concentrate on that, even if it means joining two or three clubs. That way you control what you learn, and when you learn it, rather than waiting for the syllabus to come around to you.

[MJS]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases? I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.

Also, I now live in Flagstaff, AZ and have not yet heard about or found something that covers most or all of the bases mentioned. I'm currently in TKD (MWS nights) with a little Hopkido thrown in too depending on the instructor that night. Way cool but the lesson ends once the person is on the ground with the exception of the so called 'finishing' strike/break. I also just found the only Judo club in the area and completed my second class last night (TTh nights). Between the two schools/clubs, I'm covering most of the bases I'm interested in but still some are left out. In addition, as a family man I can not dedicate most of my nights each week to MA away from the home.

Some may recall I've mention Hwa Rang Do in earlier posts. I'm biased with this system because it's one I spent most of my previous training in. It did/does cover all the bases I mentioned. Unfortunately, there isn't any instructors in my area now (they moved away years ago).

Ken/mpo 'sounds' like it may cover everything I mentioned but I'm not sure.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

~G

Many systems contain a number of aspects, such as punching, kicking, weapons and ground work. Carol mentioned the FMAs which are excellent when it comes to weapons work and their empty hand defense is pretty devastating as well. It really comes down to what you're looking to get out of the training. As I said, many arts containt the things I mentioned above, but if someone wants to further expand on a certain area, crosstraining will be necessary.

Mike

[LawDog]

When a mind is free of thought and emotion but still very focused any system can be applied to fit most situations.
:ultracool

[Sapper6]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases? I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.

Also, I now live in Flagstaff, AZ and have not yet heard about or found something that covers most or all of the bases mentioned. I'm currently in TKD (MWS nights) with a little Hopkido thrown in too depending on the instructor that night. Way cool but the lesson ends once the person is on the ground with the exception of the so called 'finishing' strike/break. I also just found the only Judo club in the area and completed my second class last night (TTh nights). Between the two schools/clubs, I'm covering most of the bases I'm interested in but still some are left out. In addition, as a family man I can not dedicate most of my nights each week to MA away from the home.

Some may recall I've mention Hwa Rang Do in earlier posts. I'm biased with this system because it's one I spent most of my previous training in. It did/does cover all the bases I mentioned. Unfortunately, there isn't any instructors in my area now (they moved away years ago).

Ken/mpo 'sounds' like it may cover everything I mentioned but I'm not sure.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

~G

there's not one. next question. :)

[bushidomartialarts]

In my experience, Martial Arts aren't the best place to look to for sound Philosophy. JMO.

Funny. Many consider the presence of a philosophical or ethical component the dividing line between a Martial Art and other combat sports.

Now, you're absolutely right that many schools underemphasize the philosophical component, and that combat sports rarely have them at all.

But I think you'll find most martial arts and martial artists look to their training experience for much of their ethics and philosophy.

[Independent_TKD]

It really depends on your overall goal. Here is straight advice that I would recommend.

Avoidance: Learn to avoid dangerous situations all together.

Hands: Boxing and/or Muay Thai to learn upperbody striking skills

Legs: Taekwondo and/or Muay Thai to learn proper lower body striking

Grappling: Judo, Wrestling, and/or Muay Thai to learn standup grappling

Ground: Judo, Wrestling, and/or Jiujitsu to learn ground defense

Weapons: LEO and/or Military Combative to learn weapon defense


From my experience, this has been the most well rounded approach to to physical martial arts with the goal of defeating a possible.

[Drac]

I do believe wholeheartedly that the best style for anyone is the one that they find 'fits' them best.


I totally agree with this statement. Simple as that.

Ditto........

[kidswarrior]

I never found anything to complain about when I did Lau Gar Kung Fu.

I do believe wholeheartedly that the best style for anyone is the one that they find 'fits' them best....most arts contain everything that you're ever likely to need - they just train them with varying degrees of emphasis and in different orders.


If you think your current dojo isn't 'home', go visit everybody, regardless of style, until you find your home. It's out there somewhere.

Yeah, would say it better if I could, but....:D Suke and bushido have covered it.

Oh, and:
...like Kenpo, there is also some brutal Kung Fu out there. Same goes with Jiu Jitsu

As well as:
Don't rule out Filipino styles. Many folks associate FMA schools with stick and knife, but many styles have empty hand and clinch work as well as dumog (combat groundfighting)

[CuongNhuka]

In my experience, Martial Arts aren't the best place to look to for sound Philosophy. JMO.


Funny. Many consider the presence of a philosophical or ethical component the dividing line between a Martial Art and other combat sports.

Now that I think of it: "Martial Arts without Philosophy is evil" - Jhoon Rhee.

[qi-tah]

Okay, I know this is a loaded question so I'll try to explain it a little further. In your opinion (based on experience or hearsay) which single MA style/system, either so called 'traditional' or modified can be considered one that covers all the bases? I'm interested because I enjoy stand-up hard and soft techniques, grappling, throws and locks, weapons, and asian and 'modern' philosophy and reason behind the movements.


Well, that's a great start... better to "round out" yr own experience than find a single "well rounded" style IMHO. Where would be the thrill of seeking new knowledge if you knew you could get everything you needed from the one source?

[Odin]

I would say go to your local MMA gym

[Odin]

I would day go to your local MMA gym and give that a go.

[Em MacIntosh]

Jkd, Imo.

[amishman]

Kuk Sool Won has caught my attention lately. Since you come from a TKD background, maybe Kuk Sool would be an option. Appears to be a very well rounded martial art.

tj

[geocad]

I would day go to your local MMA gym and give that a go.
I live in Flagstaff, AZ. I cannot even find a boxing gym let alone an MMA gym. The boxing gyms listed online for this town are no longer open. I was hoping to hear about some of the more 'popular' (in name) styles. Maybe something popular is in this small college town.

Some other poster mentioned continuing with multiple dojangs/dojos but unfortunately, my available time is getting more and more limited. I'm hearing good things about Kempo. Any thoughts on the diversity of Kempo?

[ancient warrior]

it really matters what u want if u want traditional true martial art training that takes years to become 1 with? because this is a slow process 2-3or4 days a week i tell my students to live the martial way !! have purpose everyday be at the top of your game >>>>>>>the only martial art for me now is hwa rang do i have trained in other arts before coming back to hwa rang do it has everything 1 would need for combat but is traditional so it takes awhile

[geocad]

...the only martial art for me now is hwa rang do i have trained in other arts before coming back to hwa rang do it has everything 1 would need for combat but is traditional so it takes awhile

Agreed! I too trained HRD during my college years under KJN KC in Tempe AZ. I mentioned that I enjoyed HRD because it has so much of what I am now looking for in Flagstaff, AZ. I believe it is a very well rounded system.

I guess I should have named this thread "What else closely resembles Hwa Rang Do." :) If I could train Hwa Rang Do in Flagstaff, I would be there with the whole family.

Thanks for your insight though.
~G

[Andrew Green]

I don't think there is a answer to that, all styles are well rounded within the criteria they set, and by there own criteria they win.

Consider MMA, it covers striking, clinch and ground, all in good depth. Might be considered a well rounded system, and under the criteria it sets (one on one unarmed fighting) it is the best.

But is it more rounded then Kung Fu? Which might point out its lack of weapons, multiple attackers, compliance holds (come alongs), internal development, etc?

All depends on what criteria you mean when you say "well rounded" in my mind, and no style can do everything without doing it all very poorly.

[arnisador]

I guess I should have named this thread "What else closely resembles Hwa Rang Do."

Kuk Sool Won is pretty close; apart from the weapons, versions of Hapkido that don't over-emphasize either kicking or locking to the detriment of the other are very similar in technique.


all styles are well rounded within the criteria they set, and by there own criteria they win.

Yup. This is a crucial observation. If you intend to fight under Muay Thai rules, study Muay Thai. If you intend to fight under Sumo rules, study Sumo. For arts that aren't sports, there are still unspoken assumptions. Do fights tend to end in trapping range? Think Wing Chun or JKD/JFGF. Do they tend to go the graound? Think BJJ. And so on...

[ancient warrior]

ill try to explain deeper mma is not anything like martial arts !!and its sure not well rounded this has been a heavy discussion for a few moons around our dojangs the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony..... how many mma guys bow before entering the cage? in pride theres more martial artists than ufc or k.o.c. now about traditional art training was maybe during your whole life -training within your circle
only w 1-2 head masters every 1 had there purpose weapons/ hand to hand / kicking / grappling to really become a master in hwa rang do will take u in upwards of 25-30........ yrs.............. we use the term complete art .
a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion

[shesulsa]

ill try to explain deeper mma is not anything like martial arts !!and its sure not well rounded this has been a heavy discussion for a few moons around our dojangs the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony..... how many mma guys bow before entering the cage? in pride theres more martial artists than ufc or k.o.c. now about traditional art training was maybe during your whole life -training within your circle
only w 1-2 head masters every 1 had there purpose weapons/ hand to hand / kicking / grappling to really become a master in hwa rang do will take u in upwards of 25-30........ yrs.............. we use the term complete art .
a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion
Hey, AW, could you please use standard capitalization and punctuation in your posts? Please notice everyone else does and it's a standard we try to keep to here so all can read and translate text more easily.

Thanks.

And I agree on the HRD.

[Andrew Green]

the mind set of a martial artist is peace and respect and harmony.....


No, Martial arts are about fighting. That's a more modern PR ploy that nt everyone has bought into.



how many mma guys bow before entering the cage?


I think it is very important to not confuse things that are a a neccessary part of martial arts and cultural baggage. There are more ways to show respect then pretending you are Asian.



a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training.. everything is involved even acrobatics weapons concrete breaking and hundreds of hours of meditation... is it harder than other arts? i dont believe so/// just covers sooo much more of everything at all levels //////////just my opinion

So you are defining well rounded based on the criteria of your own art? You don't do more then the rest of us, just different stuff.

[Danny T]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

[arnisador]

mma is not anything like martial arts

It's not well-rounded in the sense of including weapons or multiple opponents, but i certainly think it's martial arts...as are boxing and wrestling.


a black belt or sash in hwa rang do goes thru 8-10 yrs of training

But how many fights?

[shesulsa]

But how many fights?
I can't speak for the WHRDA curriculum, it may have changed for all I know. But we are required to demonstrate randori, sparring and grappling as a very small part of our BB test. I don't think we have a fight number requirement, rather demonstrated aptitude.

[geocad]

Honostly I didn't think this thread would turn out the way it is. I hear alot of people mentioning things off topic. That's okay, it happens. No worries.

I want to explain my reason for asking about 'well rounded'. I hope my interests were clear. When I was with HRD, every class was a mystery. I never knew what was on the agenda for that evening or day. I really enjoyed this. Even though class was not the same, I/we still learned alot. It made missing a class a real bummer because the previous class was different from the norm. How many of you can predict what your next class is going to be like?

Sometimes class wouldn't even cover our Basic 8 for the various belts or forms. I remember one fun class (years ago the first half of class) all we (everyone from white through the highest belt level in class) did was practice different types of throws. Judo throws to be more specific. The second half of the class continued with ground work based on what we learned from the first half. Since I originally came from a wrestling background, I really enjoyed the jujitsu we were doing.

Another class we worked on sparring (50-75%) with multiple attackers. This was hard but a real eye-opener. Although I got kicked in the head and sweaped at the same time, I had fun and always looked forward to multiple sparring classes.

I'm now in TKD. I enjoy some of the classes but not all of them all the time. Maybe it's my mood or just the work we're doing isn't exciting at that time. I'll get over it. My only gripe (so far) are the basic forms at this lower level. They don't 'flow', are really stiff, and slow. Is this what I should expect with all my new TKD forms? I hope not because I really like forms. At least I liked my HRD short and long forms. I'm sticking with TKD because I have high hopes things will get more exciting.

Oh yeah, a week ago at Judo (I'm in Judo too), I was thrown at least 200 times by a black belt and loved almost every one of them. And yes, I was throwing him too.

Unfortunately, as a parent and husband, I cannot afford to give 4 classes a week to training away from the house since I live 30 minutes away from the TKD dojang and Judo dojo. This is the reason why I made the call for opinions on the various systems that cover so much more.

Thanks for listening.

~G

[shesulsa]

Honostly I didn't think this thread would turn out the way it is. I hear alot of people mentioning things off topic. That's okay, it happens. No worries.

I want to explain my reason for asking about 'well rounded'. I hope my interests were clear. When I was with HRD, every class was a mystery. I never knew what was on the agenda for that evening or day. I really enjoyed this. Even though class was not the same, I/we still learned alot. It made missing a class a real bummer because the previous class was different from the norm. How many of you can predict what your next class is going to be like?

Sometimes class wouldn't even cover our Basic 8 for the various belts or forms. I remember one fun class (years ago the first half of class) all we (everyone from white through the highest belt level in class) did was practice different types of throws. Judo throws to be more specific. The second half of the class continued with ground work based on what we learned from the first half. Since I originally came from a wrestling background, I really enjoyed the jujitsu we were doing.

Another class we worked on sparring (50-75%) with multiple attackers. This was hard but a real eye-opener. Although I got kicked in the head and sweaped at the same time, I had fun and always looked forward to multiple sparring classes.

I'm now in TKD. I enjoy some of the classes but not all of them all the time. Maybe it's my mood or just the work we're doing isn't exciting at that time. I'll get over it. My only gripe (so far) are the basic forms at this lower level. They don't 'flow', are really stiff, and slow. Is this what I should expect with all my new TKD forms? I hope not because I really like forms. At least I liked my HRD short and long forms. I'm sticking with TKD because I have high hopes things will get more exciting.

Oh yeah, a week ago at Judo (I'm in Judo too), I was thrown at least 200 times by a black belt and loved almost every one of them. And yes, I was throwing him too.

Unfortunately, as a parent and husband, I cannot afford to give 4 classes a week to training away from the house since I live 30 minutes away from the TKD dojang and Judo dojo. This is the reason why I made the call for opinions on the various systems that cover so much more.

Thanks for listening.

~G
Ah. I thought you were fishing for competition with the HRD classes I thought you were still taking.

I'd say unless you go with something like BBT you're likely to be stuck where you are - my *admittedly very limited* experience with TKD is that there is much linear, regimented and predictable study with the rare exception and that depends upon the instructor and his/her experience. Judo's always fun. :D If you want that excitement back, return to HRD.

[CuongNhuka]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

BINGO! This is something I have been preaching for the 2 1/2 years I have been on this site. REP from ME!

[shesulsa]

Yes, however, I think the question really is: "What style can I train in which will give me at least a cursory knowledge of as many of the key elements of martial training as possible and still be effective?" I read it as a "one-stop-shopping" question.

Anybody who has enough time and money can seek out a teacher who has good experience, worthwhile credentials in various disciplines and spend extra time at the training hall, or take classes from three or four different locations. But if one is going to spend that kind of money and invest that kind of time, is it not more convenient and likely more efficient (and hopefully at least just as successful) to train in a discipline which covers all these areas, even if it means a longer time commitment to reach higher ranks if a lifetime endeavor is present?

The question makes sense to me.

[geocad]

If you want that excitement back, return to HRD.
Thanks G but because of my geographic location, your suggestion is no longer an option for me. KJN KC is too far to commute. http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=Garland+Prairie+Rd,+Williams,+AZ+86046&geocode=&saddr=3436+W.+Bell+Road,+Phoenix,+Arizona+85053&f=d&hl=en&sll=35.228794,-112.037888&sspn=0.269227,0.462799&ie=UTF8&ll=36.102376,-112.763672&spn=17.013313,29.619141&z=5&om=1

[CuongNhuka]

Well, how much rank did you have in Hwa Rang Do? Have you considered brushing up on your Hwa Rang Do, and opening your own school?

[shesulsa]

Thanks G but because of my geographic location, your suggestion is no longer an option for me. KJN KC is too far to commute. http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=Garland+Prairie+Rd,+Williams,+AZ+86046&geocode=&saddr=3436+W.+Bell+Road,+Phoenix,+Arizona+85053&f=d&hl=en&sll=35.228794,-112.037888&sspn=0.269227,0.462799&ie=UTF8&ll=36.102376,-112.763672&spn=17.013313,29.619141&z=5&om=1
Oh, that's right - forgot, sorry. Shame - KJN KC is a *great* teacher.

[ancient warrior]

In my humble opinion u need to stay with a system for many years and be a disciple to only 1 art endure all that art has to offer go thru the pain the mental agony the physical changes as well as the psycological changes, the core of all arts is to become better in society and for society with passing the true arts ,, in hrd we have the meng sae, bushido have a code of ethics as all other original arts, otherwise we become cold & unrespectfull! if u believe its how many fights u have and fights youve won. you have the wrong teacher.. They should name the school ass kicking university, not a martial arts studio. I have a friend that owns a tkd school what a great place to train but theres no real tradition there anymore .Every 1 wants the short cuts to make their art better .so they leave out the core to make it interesting and have more clients.. when was the last time you devoted a whole class to bowing or kneeling w proper posture or have a discussion on why u train in your art? be true u will find the real you !!

[Andrew Green]

All a matter of opinion, you might consider that "true", while I would consider it very artificial.

Fighting is what we do, everything comes through that. When you fight with someone trying to knock you out, you learn a lot more about yourself then sitting on the floor meditating will ever teach you.

Fights don't even have to be physical to get that, but in martial arts, they are. Although IMO the benefit crosses over into other things.

If you really want to learn about yourself it comes from how you act under pressure, not how you act when nothing can possibly go wrong. Whether it is a physical fight, a job negotiation, or fighting cancer, that is where you find your character development.

[exile]

I don't think of the systems as being well rounded. It has more to do with the individual's personal usage of the system. Take Wing Chun for instance. For the most part there is very little ground work in Most wing chun training however, all the principles and concepts can be utilized on the ground. Problems arise when the individual attempts to use stand up training in the ground environment without ever training on the ground. It isn't the systems fault it is the individual's for never training in that environment. The movements and available techniques are there in the system. Different training systems may expound on particular aspects but most have the movements and positions somewhere in the training. If you want to be well rounded in all possible areas then train in all those areas. You want to be a good straight kicker then train that kick, you want to be a good roundhouse kicker then train that kick. You want to be a good stand up fighter then train realistically in stand up, you want to be a good ground fighter then get on the ground and realistically train on the ground. You want to be a good weapons fighter then train realistically with and against weapons. The system cannot do it for you. YOU must do it!

Danny T

BINGO! This is something I have been preaching for the 2 1/2 years I have been on this site. REP from ME!

And rep from me too, Danny. There is so much crystallized common sense in this statement that it seems as if very little more needs be said on that particular point. Interestingly, this is yet another, very well-stated expression of the idea that it's not the art per se, but (i) how it's taught and (ii) how you choose to train it, which makes for both effectiveness and what GC identifies as excitement.


All a matter of opinion, you might consider that "true", while I would consider it very artificial.

Fighting is what we do, everything comes through that. When you fight with someone trying to knock you out, you learn a lot more about yourself then sitting on the floor meditating will ever teach you.

Again, very true and very nicely put.


If you really want to learn about yourself it comes from how you act under pressure, not how you act when nothing can possibly go wrong. Whether it is a physical fight, a job negotiation, or fighting cancer, that is where you find your character development.

And believe it or not, that was a position that you find even in the Western mystical tradition. Meditation and contemplation were taken to be effective only when they had `food' to digest—experience. When I was an undergraduate, in one of my humanities survey courses, we had a text written by one of the great mediæval mystics, damned if I can remember which one, in the form of a dialogue between a young man and an old, revered hermit scholar whom the former has searched out to ask about the nature of God. The old mystic listens to the boy's questions, especially how he should live his life, and then tells him to become a soldier. To fight, to learn the customs and habits of a wide variety of other places (just about the only way of doing that in the Middle Ages, unless you were very rich) and then, after many years of accumulating experience, to do what the old man has done: try to see the common basis of all of his experiences, and God's nature will emerge after he contemplates his life experiences carefully and honestly, undistracted by the need to please others. The boy is pretty surprised—you mean I actually have to do something before God reveals Himself to me?? :lol: I loved it...

GC, there's one thing I think you might consider. Arts, even though they ultimately share a common technical core, differ greatly in how their curricula are structured. TKD, like other variants of karate, tend to have very highly structured curricula; my impression from talking to Kenpoka is that Kenpo (of the EP variety, anyway) is sort of the logical extreme of this approach. The karate-based arts in general don't allow much `mystery' or spontaneity. But as Danny and CN would probably agree, that's really a function of the individual school curriculum. So, for example, suppose you had a TKD school where, after the warmup and the work on basic kihon drills, the instructor announced a particular hyung and told you, `OK, we're looking at moves 5 through 8. Perform those.' And everyone did. Then the instructor said, `All right, imagine that an attacker has grabbed you with his left hand by your shirt and is clearly preparing to use that grab as to immobilize you while he winds up a right hook to your jaw to deck you. Find the fighting application of those four moves which will enable you to knock him out/break his neck/force him to the ground/...? by the last move—regardless of what he tries to do to resist! Find a partner, work out the application so the outcome is forced, and then we're all going to watch you perform it and explain it.' And suppose every class had a twenty minute or half-hour segment along those lines... would that not be exciting (and a little bit scary... putting your best SD analysis of the hyung out there for everyone to see)?

OK, at most dojangs, TKD isn't taught that way. But there's no reason it couldn't be, or wouldn't be if you found the right instructor. It's a very nonstandard curriculum approach... but it's certainly not unknown; an increasing number of UK dojangs, influenced by the bunkai-jutsu movement in karate there, do something like this. So the excitement factor is I think really a matter of instructor choice. Anything can be made mechanical, repetitive and predictable, but if there's one thing I learned at the M&G training sessions we had in Buffalo this past weekend, it's that there's no such thing as an inherent unexciting MA...

[Mary Chant]

I certainly am limited in experience and rank compared to those who have posted thus far, but that's never stopped me from having an opinion :). I've studied Uechi-Ryu, a little Judo and dabbled in some others, and have been studying a modified Shorin-Ryu with a Wado component for 5 1/2 years. There are certain elements of each that resonate with me for reasons other than being a well-rounded system. But, what I have also observed is that there were commonalities among all the styles, and the important piece was how well the instructor understood and could convey its core elements into survival and fighting techniqes. Ground work, ukemi, sabaki (sp?), reaction time, speed, etc., can be found in each of the styles I've been privileged to study; it seems that what can make the biggest difference is what the Sensei chooses to emphasize and how effective s/he is at communicating it.

Mary

[Mary Chant]

Umm, I didn't mean to put the laughing icon before the topic response line. I am icon semi-illiterate, and was trying to put a smiley face by my "opinion" sentence in the actual text of my message. I wouldn't bother writing this explanation, but I didn't want anyone to think that I was laughing at the topic.

And, yes, I am a little neurotic.

Mary

[dru123]

I chose Kajukenbo because I felt it was a very well rounded martial art. My instructor describes it as "Mixed Martial Arts, Judo, Brazillian Jujitsu, Kenpo, Kick Boxing, Chi gung, Tai Chi and Special Forces Self Defense."

I think that is pretty well rounded :)