Osu,

A webiste and School you will want to visit

http://www.inigmasoft.com/dentokan

Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei (International House of Tradition Martial Arts Federation): Founded in 1994 by Roy J. Hobbs as a means of providing instruction, and certification, in the various martial arts he has studied and practiced for over 40 years. The Dentokan is affiliated with the following Japanese/Okinawan groups: Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Seidokan Kyokai, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, KoKoDo (Ju-Jutsu) Renmei, and All Japan Seibukan Martial Arts Association.

Mission: To preserve and teach the traditional martial arts of Japan (including Okinawa). To accomplish this in an environment free of intimidation, politics, and other distracters. We further seek to foster a spirit of fellowship and understanding, welcoming all like-minded individuals, regardless of race, gender, ethnic background, religion, national origin, or physical handicap.

Vision: Build healthy minds, bodies, and spirits through the study of traditional martial arts.

Arts Represented: Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do, Toratsuru-Ryu Kenpo, Okinawa Kobudo, Ju-Jutsu/Aiki-Jutsu, and Iai-Jutsu.

Location: Sensei Hobbs now lives and teaches In O'fallon, Illinois U.S.A. approximately 15 miles east of St. Louis, Missouri Please Email Sensei Hobbs for training times and location


Michael C. Byrd

Several extra copies of this post have been removed from various fora.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Ok...I'm not entirely sure why...Since the school encompasses all the arts that it was posted in.

Arts Represented: Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do, Toratsuru-Ryu Kenpo, Okinawa Kobudo, Ju-Jutsu/Aiki-Jutsu, and Iai-Jutsu.

Perhaps I missed a rule somewhere....Sorry.

Michael C. Byrd

See Rule #6 here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314). Unfortunately the reasoning "My post is on-topic here" applied to a great many posts so we find it best to enforce this rule.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Osu,

Alrighty, point taken, perhaps in a few months it would be ok to put this up in another forum.

Apologies Again.

Michael C. Byrd

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Alrighty, point taken, perhaps in a few months it would be ok to put this up in another forum.

Yes, absolutely! That would be fine. Thanks for understanding!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

In 40 years the man claims to have:

4 10th dans
3 9th dans
3 8th dans
1 7th dan
and a 5th dan.

Along with various Menkyo awards. To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.

Originally posted by Aegis
To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.

Well, it all depends on the system's ranking requirements. If he meets the requirements, what's the problem? All arts have different requirements, some arts for example, allow opening a dojo at 1. dan, some require 5. dan so one would apparently need to compare the 1. dan to the 5. dan between those two arts. It would also be normal to assume one may get the 5th dan in apprx. same amount of years as the other style gives 1st. Some arts have new techniques only up till 1. or 2. dan, some have up till 8th and so on. There are arts where 5. dan is the highest you can get! Some go up to 10 or even higher I have heard. And so on ad nauseatum.

Not to say anything about the legitimacy of the people at hand, but just to make it clear we cannot directly compare dan per dan between arts.

Originally posted by Aegis
In 40 years the man claims to have:

4 10th dans
3 9th dans
3 8th dans
1 7th dan
and a 5th dan.

Along with various Menkyo awards. To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.

First, Hobbs Sensei has a love for Budo that, when I studied with him, bordered on being religious. It would not be unusual for him to be learning from more than one sensei consecutively either.

Second, several of the arts listed in his biography are very closely related. For example, KoKoDo Ju-jutsu was founded by one of Hobbs Sensei's senseis at the Hakko-Ryu Ju-Jutsu Hombu Dojo. So, his Menkyo Kaiden in KoKoDo is built upon the foundation laid by his Menkyo Shihan in Hakko-Ryu. Further, the All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association was founded by Shian Toma Sensei, who studied under Seiki Toma Sensei who founded the Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Seidokan Kyokai. Both of these systems are from the Kyan lineage of Shorin-ryu. You'll also note that, in some cases, he has been awarded more than one rank from the same organization or that some of the organizations awarded him rank under both the modern Dan system and the old Menkyo system, e.g. "Kudan, Seidokan Karate Kobudo, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa", "Hachidan, Seidokan Toide/Tuite (Grappling), All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa" and "Shihan Menkyo, Seidokan Kobu-Jutsu, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa". In this case, three ranks awarded (2 Dan grades and 1 Menkyo) from the same organization. Also, Goshin Budo is basically the ju-jutsu developed by the late Shogo Kuniba Soke, who was the head of the Seishinkai, which also taught Motobu-hu Shito-ryu Karate. Shito-Ryu, being mix of Kyan lineage Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu karate, laid the foundation for Hobbs Sensei's study of both Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu karate when he was on Okinawa.

Finally, it takes a lot less time to learn a style of karate (or ju-jutsu) once you have developed a solid foundation in another style of karate (or ju-jutsu), because it becomes a matter of learning the peculiarities of the new style rather than starting from square one.

Admittedly, Hobbs Sensei was my teacher, but nonetheless I think that if you look at his credentials closely and take my previous comments into consideration, you will find that his accomplishments are not implausible.

Ask anyone who has trained with him and they'll tell you that his knowledge of Budo runs wide and deep. Better yet, train with him and find out for yourself.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

It's too bad that if Hobbs walked into any Okinawan dojo and claimed those 10th dans were the “real deal” they would laugh their ass off at him. The only way you can get that much rank is to buy it. Which is why Hobbs is most likely connected in some to the infamous Jukkokai Dan/Soke factory.

Only the uninitiated would believe he could get all that rank……..

You will also notice on his and other “lofty rank claimers” the new fad of having your photo taken with the famous Karateka in Okinawa. People have started using this to qualify their bogus ranks…..it’s like see I was there so my rank must be legit.
If I had a dime for every time I could have done that Bill Gates would workin’ for me.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton


Finally, it takes a lot less time to learn a style of karate (or ju-jutsu) once you have developed a solid foundation in another style of karate (or ju-jutsu), because it becomes a matter of learning the peculiarities of the new style rather than starting from square one.

No that’s not true.
I spend half my time re-educating dan ranked students over the basics because of the some of the crap they have learned elsewhere. It takes a long time to undue then re-teach someone something than starting with a blank page.
Teaching them how to block is my biggest chore.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Admittedly, Hobbs Sensei was my teacher, but nonetheless I think that if you look at his credentials closely and take my previous comments into consideration, you will find that his accomplishments are not implausible.

He may have some skill but there is no freakin’ all those dan ranks are legit.

Just as a side note:
It is usually the guys that say “I don’t know much” and don’t make outrageous claims to rank that are the best.

In Japanese they have a saying for them:

The wise eagle hides it’s claws.

Those are the guys that give me the willys.

Mr. Rousselot,

I do not represent Hobbs Sensei or his organization and I do not want to get into a pi$$ing match with you, which is the direction that you seem to be taking this discussion given the tone of your comments. Therefore, I will suggest that you take up your concerns with Hobbs Sensei directly.

However, as long as you have bring up legitimacy, "outrageous claims" and such, I have a question about something that I read on your web site. To quote:

"The Uhugushuku family is famous for their karate and kobudo techniques. The 6�Ebo and 4�Ejo were the families specialty, although they possessed great skill with all weapons and empty hand techniques. Mr. Oyata became Mr. Uhugushuku’s personal student and trained with him daily.
Mr. Uhugushuku expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique. He gave Mr. Oyata problems and ideas to discover hidden meanings in the kata.
Because of his ability Mr. Oyata was introduced to a friend of Mr. Uhugushuku’s named Mr. Wakinaguri, who specialized in special striking techniques called Kyusho jutsu. Mr. Wakinaguri taught how to discover the bodies weak points and vital areas as well as how to strike them.
With this knowledge he began to research kata and to discover their hidden meanings. Mr. Uhugushuku awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo.
Upon the death of his two masters Mr. Oyata was accepted as an instructor/student at Nakamura Shigeru’s dojo.
The 12 empty hand kata that are taught in our system are Naihanchi 1~3 (Tekki in Japanese), Pinan 1~5 (Heian in Japanese), Passai, Kusanku, Niseishi, and Seisan. These were taught to Mr. Oyata by Mr. Nakamura"

The above quote was taken from the book "Ryukyu Kempo History and Basics", written by Kyoshi Jim Logue, via Robert Rousselot's (a.k.a. RyuShiKan) web site: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Palace/2264/RyuShiKanpage2.html I know that's not the proper citation format, but I think it will suffice.

If Mr. Uhugushuku "expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique" and "awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo", then what happened to the Uhugushuku family kata and why does Mr. Oyata teach the kata that he learned from Nakamura Shigeru instead of the Uhugushuku family kata?

Now, I could draw ("jump to" would be more appropriate) a few conclusions and go off half-cocked making statements that are damaging by defaming someone's character or reputation, but that would not be fare to you, Mr. Logue, or Mr. Oyata ... would it?

I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point: That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard. I think your behavior falls far short of either standard and believe that Mr. Oyata would agree. Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Mr. Rousselot,
I do not represent Hobbs Sensei or his organization and I do not want to get into a pi$$ing match with you, which is the direction that you seem to be taking this discussion given the tone of your comments.

Not a pi$$ing match at all. Just using some common sense. It’s odd how many of the Okinawans that train in Shorin ryu for 40+ years don’t have the rank that Hobbs claims, and that is just in that art alon. Like I said Hobbs may have some skill but that many high dan grades………BULLSXXT!

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Therefore, I will suggest that you take up your concerns with Hobbs Sensei directly.

What would be the point. I would still think he has no basis to claim that many high dan grades.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
If Mr. Uhugushuku "expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique" and "awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo", then what happened to the Uhugushuku family kata and why does Mr. Oyata teach the kata that he learned from Nakamura Shigeru instead of the Uhugushuku family kata?

You ask a good question. But you have some incorrect information.
Mr. Uhugushuku taught Mr. Oyata about 38 Kobudo kata and how to analyze kata he never taught him "Karate".
The first 2 empty hand kata Mr. Oyata learned from Mr. Wakinaguri were Shiho Hapo no Te & Shiho Hapo Miyo no te.
These were not taught by Mr. Nakamura.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point:

There was no inconsistency I just chose not to put all the information I had on the website,
and for a good reason.
A few years back some nut case made up some kata and started calling them Uhugushuku Bo, Jo and what not………the fact was they were not.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Fulton
[B] That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy…

I don’t owe people that claim bogus dan rank a thing. They insult the rest of the people that actually earn rank.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with.


You might want to do an Internet search and just see how many cases are won for such a thing………….not many. Even fewer that result from something over the Internet.

People are allowed to state their opinion on the Internet or anywhere.
However, if someone makes a false claim that someone is an axe murder or child molester with out any basis for proof then they could be held libel.

I have included some links to the infamous Rod Sacharnoski who was totally exposed on E-Budo (do a name search there)He runs a dan and Soke factory and even tried to sell University degrees for a while until the District Attorney in his state shut him down.

Sacharnoski also claims to have gotten some pretty lofty ranks just has Hobbs has done in fact they both claim rank from the All Okinawa Seidokan Motobu-ryu Martial Arts Union that is supposed to be run by Mr. Toma.
However Mr. Toma does not wish to discuss Sacharnoski……..I wonder why?

Check the “Notice” down at the bottom of this website

http://www.somavp.com/seidokan/

Hobbs seems to run with a pretty shady group (Albert Church, Rod Sacharnoski) that also make some pretty outlandish claims to titles and ranks.

Sacharnoski:

http://members.cavtel.net/greatneck/Soke%20Sacharnoski.htm

http://www.midil.com/s1/selfdefense/plimshof/elite/sacharnoski.html

Hobbs:

http://home.attbi.com/~fbco/Hobbs03.htm

William Durbin….also connected to Sacharnoski and also has boat loads of high rank.

http://sweb.uky.edu/~wpcard0/linx.htm

These guys can claim as many 9th and 10th dans as they want……just don’t expect anyone with common sense in the martial arts to fall for it.

Osu,

Don't know about the other guy but i can vouch for Sensei Hobbs, I think the photos prove it. If you would like at them.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/photos.htm

I have touched and seen his certificates from Seiki Toma, Sensei Shian Toma, the certs from Hakko-Ryu school, the Koko Do school and all of the rest of them as well. There are pictures on the site of Sensei Hobbs holding these certificates in the presence of his teachers.

Most people that claim all of these ranks are fake, but in his case they are legit. I have trained with him and seen the kata also listed on the site.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

Attached is a file Hakko-Ryu 8
Ryuho Okuyama Sensei presenting Shihan Menkyo Kaiden


If you like you can Email him yourself. senseihobbs@dentokanhombu.com

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

This was Seiki Toma presenting me with Judan of Shorinryu Karate-Do & Kobudo. It took me completely by surprise, thus the goofy look

Holding my Menkyo Kaiden, KoKoDo Hombu, 1998

michael

Micheal,

Odd how I have some of those same photos of old masters too.
Just because he had had his picture taken with some folks in Okinawa and Japan doesn’t prove anything other than he went to the dojo.

When I was at Mr. Sugino’s dojo (Toshiro Mifune’s teacher and also responsible for the choreography for the 7 Samurai movie) we had people come in train for a day or two have their photo taken with Mr. Sugino …………and the next thing you know that photo is up on their website claiming rank from Mr. Sugino.

As for the “menkyo” photo….sorry I can’t read the certificate from here.

Sachornoski used to wave around a dan certificate that he “claimed” was from Toma.
Fact of the matter was the kanji were wrong on the certificate and the stamp was an obvious fake but unless you could read Japanese you wouldn’t know.


The 5th dan I can see as possible….maybe even the 7th dan, but the 4 10th dans, 3 9th dans and 3 8th dans no way.

Osu,

Im still working on the website, I have only about 60 percent of the photos up i intend to put on the site. Sensei Hobbs has many more that are not digitized in his records. I can not find any more pictures currently on file that actually show him being awarded his other ranks, but ill see what i can do, since so many seem to think i and my teacher are not what we say we are.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

I'll get more pictures if they exist of him receiving his other certs, if someone wants to see them. Check the site out completely. You'll see Seiki Toma, Shian Toma, and many others.

Here's a pic for Shian Toma's Dojo, aka Seidokan.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Here's a pic for Shian Toma's Dojo, aka Seidokan.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com


Yeah that's him and that's Toma......which proves he and Toma were in the same room and nothing more.
You're not getting my point about the "photo op" scam people are doing these days. Read my post about Mr. Sugino's dojo again. I had my photo taken with Bob Sapp........so wwhat...
Also "master" Hobbs needs to lift up that left arm since the tonfa shouldn't be pointed downward. He also might want to fix those wrists too. Those are mistakes my kyu ranks make.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Osu,

Im still working on the website, I have only about 60 percent of the photos up i intend to put on the site. Sensei Hobbs has many more that are not digitized in his records. I can not find any more pictures currently on file that actually show him being awarded his other ranks, but ill see what i can do, since so many seem to think i and my teacher are not what we say we are.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

I'll get more pictures if they exist of him receiving his other certs, if someone wants to see them. Check the site out completely. You'll see Seiki Toma, Shian Toma, and many others.


Seriously, don’t waste your time. I am going to unsubscribe to this thread as it will never go anywhere.
There is no way in hell a guy that is my age or maybe a little bit younger could have "a" 10th dan let alone 4 in a legit way.

Osu,

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO READ THESE TO A CERTAIN DEGREE!

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/toma10.jpg 10th dan with toma
http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kokodokaiden.jpg 10th dan with irie sensei

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/hakko11.jpg
(I get the impression they just dont invite anyone over for dinner, he's holding Ryuho Okuyama's grandson in this picture)


www.dentokanhombu.com

Well i tell ya what, anytime you are in the St. Louis area stop on by and I'm sure I can arrange for you to see them. I am not a liar and neither is my teacher. Do with that what you want. The truth is the truth even if you dont accept it.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Here's another link to chew on.

http://www.hanshinoiinkai.org/members.htm

with sensei toma at shuri castle

Group picture, Toma Dojo, 1993

With Shian Toma, 1980

Seki Toma Sensei, Sensei Takahiro Shinjo, Sensei Hobbs

with Sensei Fumio Demura, 1994/5

Sensei Yoshio Kuba and Sensei Hobbs

Dinner celebration, award of Menkyo Kaiden to myself,
with Irie Sensei and friends at the KoKoDo Hombu, 1998

Shihan test, Irie Sensei is my uke, Waka Sensei (Ryuho Okuyama's son)

Osu,

I have spoken to my Sensei and he expected no less, because of all the people out there that "claim' such things and when a real one comes along they dont believe it. I will be posting to the website within the next day or two, full color photos of all his major Dan certificates. His latest ranking in iai jutsu he has not received yet from japan, but those will follow.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Byrd Sensei,

In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else.

Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Osu,

Go here i have some of the cert photos up.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/sensei.htm


there are also 2 shorin ryu kata on the kata page.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Objective opinion…………ok


The certificate on the far right of the webpage

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/sensei.htm

Or shall we call it how to spot the fake dan certificate.

First of all dan certificates from Okinawan or Japanese teachers are hand written….not printed out with a word processor like this one is.

The kanji at the bottom for “Hanshi” look as if they were written by either a child or a foreigner not an adult Japanese/Okinawa

This seal or “hanko” as they are known is an extremely cheap variety that one buys at a 7-11 in Japan and is not the kind used on important documents or dan certificates.

This is too easy to forge or copy and would never be used on a "real" certificate.

This reads it is certificate number 2.
That means that dojo has only given out 2 certificates in its entire existence. It has nothing to do with the dan grade or how many of that dan grade were given out it denotes how many certificates have been given out.
Kind of like the number on a check has no relation to the amount of money to be paid out……..it’s for tracking purposes.

This one is a 10th dan and was awarded by Bruce Heilman of the IKKF…..last I heard Bruce was an 8th or 9th dan so I wonder how he can give out a 10th dan.

This puppy wins 1st prize.

It reads “Western Division House”. In Japanese it is read SeiBukan........doesn't make sense for the name of a dojo.

This reads “Karate Bujutsu”. and you will note this certificate is also typed out instead of hand written.

Here is another 10th dan given out by a 9th dan…..is it just me or is that weird…..you can just make out the guys rank at the bottom.
That would be like my students giving me dan rank

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Byrd Sensei,

In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else.

Is that substamtiated and objective enough for you???? Thanks for suppling the photos Micheal.........if I had an ounce of doubt they were fake before I have NONE now.....I am sure they are fake.

Why don't you give us your "expert" opinon Fulton......Hell for all you know the Japanese on there could have come off the menu at a sushi bar.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.


Unfortunate for the folks that try to BS the general public into thinking they can produce bogus rank and make it fly.


Fulton I think your nose is still out of joint because you tried to trip me up with your question about only having 12 kata a few posts back and got an answer you didn’t expect.

Like I said before Hobbs may have some skill……he may be a legit 5th and or 7th dan, but four 10th dans and three 9ths………no way……..not unless they were bought anyway.

I stated my opinion and gave you photographic evidence to support it……….but hey, you believe whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

Greetings Ryushikan,

Perhaps you already commented on these. But what about the koko do menkyo kaiden, and the certificate presented by seiki tomoa sensei?

www.dentokanhombu.com/kokodokaiden.jpg
www.dentokanhombu.com/toma10.jpg


Hey I thought you unsubscribed? ;)

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Greetings Ryushikan,

I know you said that some of those are easy to fake. If they are easy to fake, couldnt that not mean they could also be real?

This is a link to my Goju Shodan Certificate fromt he Okinawa Goyu Kai (my Nidan hasn't arrived yet) I would like your analysis of it.

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai/gojushodan.jpg

I will also be posting the remainder of the certificates to the website within the next severaly days and would appreicate your analysis of them as well.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Now from what I understand of the Seibukan, they are a similar organization to the Butoko Kai. They test people in "generic" terms and aren't really that style specific. I believe it is also a board that tests the people.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Gojubujin,

I had a look at the 3 certificates you mentioned.
The one where Hobbs is sitting I can’t see clearly enough, the one with the old man (Toma) in it I would not put much value in it.

Although the Toma in that photo and the younger more famous Toma that my teacher knows extremely well have the same last name that is where the similarities end.

The Toma in that photo is notorious for selling bloated ranks.
Another individual down in Okinawa by the name of Yabiku Takiya (a cab driver) also sells bloated ranks usually 8th dans and up.
I have said it before and I will say it again………the dan mill factories were invented here. One example is the IBF, International Budo Federation (Kokusai Budoin).

The shodan certificate of yours looks real. Notice the “Hanko” (seal) on yours and the fake one on Hobbs’ (see photo). The one on your certificate is what they are supposed to look like. The one on Hobbs’ is too simple and therefore easy to forge. It is not the kind used on certificates or any other official document.

Also of note, yours is hand written and not printed out on a word processor. An Okinawan or Japanese teacher would NEVER issue a dan certficate that was made on a word rocessor.......especially one that is a 10th dan!

Ryushikan,

I don't agree with you on practically everything, but I appreciate your opinnion and point of view. I don't know you, so Im always cautious, I appreciate your point of view.

Every teacher I have had up to Hobbs, has always complimented him very highly. He is my teacher he is a very humble man, I have no reason to doubt his credentials I have been training for 10yrs now and have trained in a couple of traditional dojo's his technique and karate and his depth of knowledge i have never run into before.

I'd like you to look at the other certs when i get them on the site. Putting one up from Hakko-ryu, Eiko Miyazato and Shian Toma Sensei and a few others.

Thanks

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Ryushikan,

I don't agree with you on practically everything, but I appreciate your opinnion and point of view. I don't know you, so Im always cautious, I appreciate your point of view.

Fair enough. Now let me ask you……..how would you spot a real dan certificated from a fake one? Could you?
I doubt most westerners could given the fact that so few of them a) have the language skills to recognize the difference and b) have seen enough legit certificates to know how to spot a fake one from a real one.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Every teacher I have had up to Hobbs, has always complimented him very highly. He is my teacher he is a very humble man, I have no reason to doubt his credentials I have been training for 10yrs now and have trained in a couple of traditional dojo's his technique and karate and his depth of knowledge i have never run into before.

As I stated twice before Hobbs may have some skill, he maybe be a legit 5th and 7th dan like he claims, but there is no way in hell he is old enough or trained long enough to have obtained four 10th dans and three 9th dans.
Consider this: Most of the legit 10th dans in Okinawa and Japan are in their late 70’s or older and they only have one 10th dan that took them most of their lives to earn, so how is it Hobbs has piled up four of them plus three 9th dans and several menkyo kaiden and his only about 50 years old. Is he that much better than everyone else? I don’t think so.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
I'd like you to look at the other certs when i get them on the site. Putting one up from Hakko-ryu, Eiko Miyazato and Shian Toma Sensei and a few others.


Look, the only reason why I took the time out of my busy day to go to the trouble of looking at those certificates and posting the comments and photos on them in this thread is because you kept pestering me with your emails and after I blocked your email address you pestered me again with PMs here on MT.
I figured you would stop after I posted my answers but I guess not.
Look if you or anyone else wants to believe those certificates are real then feel free to do so. I have posted my posted my thoughts on the matter and given reasons why I think so.

Osu Ryushikan,

Hey I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to look at them. No, honestly I couldnt spot a fake even perhaps if my life depended on it.

If you would though when i get those other photos if you would look at a few more I would greatly appreciate it.

As far as pesetring....I'm just a persistant individual and do not give up easily ;)

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Osu Ryushikan,

I promise to not pester you any further. If you would take the time to review and analyze these last few certificates, I would greatly appreciate it.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/shihan hakko-ryu.jpg

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/Kudan Seidokan Toide (Grappling).jpg

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/Kudan Seidokan Karate.jpg

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/Shihan Seidokan Kobu-Jutsu.jpg

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/Hansh, Ju-Jutsu, All Japan Seibukan.jpg

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/temp/Hachidan Goju-Ryu Karate Kenpo.jpg

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Goujubujin,

First off, for your edification the using (and over using) of the word “osu” is not considered polite. In fact it is considered rather uneducated.
People sometimes use it in the dojo but never outside of the dojo.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
No, honestly I couldnt spot a fake even perhaps if my life depended on it.


Well Gojubujin has admitted he wouldn’t know a real certificate from a fake one…how about you Fulton?…….got anything to “substantiate” your claim?

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
……In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else.

I’m sorry……what was that again? I think I gave you enough to chew on for a while.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.
Dave Fulton

Complete waste of time? Really?
And you based your opinion on what grounds, Fulton?……your Japanese Language ability?….:rofl: ....or some kid that has no Japanese Language ability and just said they were real?…..:rofl: …….WOW! Talk about “unsubstantiated”.:rofl:

Sorry guys I am finished looking at dan certificates for you………I stated my opinion and it won’t change. Re-read my post before this one.

Osu,

Well you'll just have to forgive us dumb Americans. Perhaps if If i'd have had the opportunities you have apparently had to learn in Okinawa and Japan and study the language I would be more up on things as you are.

I really wish you well though sir sincerely. You seem to have allot of built up hositility and anger though, reguardless.

You know even when I deal with people I consider to be less than knowledgable or don't really know what they are talking about, I don't let them know in such a fashion as you have. It simply isn't necessary.

Each to his own though. I suppose you have your reasons. Don't want to look at anymore, I don't blame you in the least. I was only hoping you would do me this last service.

Jee things can get so hostile on these threads.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Osu,

Well you'll just have to forgive us dumb Americans. Perhaps if If i'd have had the opportunities you have apparently had to learn in Okinawa and Japan and study the language I would be more up on things as you are.

Being cynical about it doesn’t help your cause.
Any of the “opportunities” I got is because I made them.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
You seem to have allot of built up hositility and anger though, reguardless. You know even when I deal with people I consider to be less than knowledgable or don't really know what they are talking about, I don't let them know in such a fashion as you have. It simply isn't necessary.

Is that your professional opinion as a licensed Psychologist?
Not hostile at all………maybe a little annoyed when 2 people that have no actual knowledge of a language and it’s culture get arrogant and claim that I am making unsubstantiated accusations when I have spent almost 2 decades in that country and use the language daily. It would seem I have lived and worked here about as long as you have been alive too.
As for “dealing with people less knowledgeable”……..you can play the “victim” on this thread all you want. However, I have seen how you deal with people that are more knowledgeable so why should I think you treat someone who knows less any better.

You and Fulton seem to be a little bit too arrogant and opinionated on a subject for 2 people that have no actual knowledge of it.

Osu,

If i acted arrogantly toward you it was unintentional and I apologize whole heartedly. I was also not really trying to be cynical I was being sincere as I know how.

I don't think it takes a psychologist to determine such.

You can believe what ever you want on how I treat people. It has been a flaw of mine that I'm really working hard toward eliminating. The logic of why should you do less than I have done. Why would you mimic or use the same bad behavior as someone else in any matter?

I really meant no offense to you. I never meant to be arrogant toward you if I was.

You're probably right, I shouldn't try to compete with someone who obviously seems to have somewhat of an idea what they're talking about. I will tell you this Ryushikan, I will be allot more careful of what I post on here in the future. I don't like arguing with people, most of the time I just prefer to let them belive what ever they wish. I should do no less on here. It simply isnt worth whether one is right or wrong. You have taught me that lesson anyway.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Gojubijin,

I agree.
Arguing here is somewhat of a waste of time……..not much ever gets solved and it just makes bad blood.
I don’t mind hearing peoples opinion on why they think this way or that. I learn a lot from that sort of discussion.
However, when people like Fulton make statements like this towards a person instead of the topic on these boards:

“In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else. Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.
Dave Fulton”

I have found they only do that when they are out of ammunition for logical reasoning and have nothing else to offer or support their views. They try “character assassination” as a means to justifying their arguments. As if by pointing to some character flaw they can justify their point of view.

I can understand you frustration by me saying some of those dan ranks are not real. I think most people would feel the same way.
One thing that you may not be aware of is the fact that many Japanese and Okinawan teachers look at foreigners, especially Americans, with high dan ranks and just laugh. Never to their face of course because, that would be considered rude to them, but I have heard several teachers here make the comment of “Over Ranked Yank” on more than a few occasions. Therefore, people that claim many high dan ranks not only do damage to themselves but every other foreigner that comes after them.
This is not only my view but also another American that trains fulltime in Okinawa.

“However, I am one of those hardcore Americans that feel no foreigner should ever be above the rank of 8th Dan. In addition, I think there should be only "one" non-Asian 8th Dan in any organization. I never did understand why any American/foreigner felt the need to attain a rank higher than 7th Degree.”

Ryushikan,

I don't want their to be any bad blood between us. You make allot of sense in some of the things you have put on here. I don't agree with you on allot either, just call it faith or blind faith, or how ever you wish to look at it.

You are right, I think these things are beginning to become a complete waste of my time. Even when I'm right I'm wrong.

I agree with you on allot of the rank stuff, I believe probably somewhere in the 90% range or more of people who claim high dan ranks are fraud. I just usually laugh inside though, it accmplshes nothing by insulting them or their students. I believe in my teacher, as Im sure you do yours.

Thanks for the insight, If I didn't place some value on your opinion I wouldn't have asked you any of those things I asked you look at, and I wouldnt have challenged you in the first place.

what's better to say than osu, Konnichiwa? I used to spell it "oss" but i was corrected on that. I know its kind of a slang or generic term before u even mentioned it, i just use it...oh well.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com

Mr. Rouselot,

I see you have been busy.

First and foremost, I agree with Michael, that you do seem to have a lot of hostility to vent. Granted, I'm not a trained, psychologist, just someone with a lot of personal experience with hostility in their past ... my own hostility and that of others. Fortunately, I have made a great deal of progress with regard to dealing with my own hostility as well as that of other people, which is why I haven't commented for a while. I was not, as you said, resorting to "character assassination" to support my views due to a lack of ability to continue a logical discussion. You were already doing enough of that and I simply was not going to join you. You seemed pretty darned hostile (to my perception) towards Hobbs Sensei, Michael and myself (without provocation I might add), and I didn't want to let your hostility suck me into looked to be nothing more than a pi$$ing match, so I was just going to walk away. I usually find that walking away works.

Which brings me to my second point. You keep hammering Michael over the head with comments that I made, which hardly seems like reasonable behavior. If you want to hammer someone over the head with my comments, then please direct your efforts towards the appropriate target ... me. I stood behind my comments when I made them and still do to the degree that I believe that a person who makes accusations without attempting to substantiate those accusations does more damage to themselves than to anyone else and truly is a waste of time. The fact that you reviewed the evidence offered by Michael, takes you out of that category and casts a different light on your opinions. I'm not saying that I agree with your opinion, but simply acknowledging that you've made the effort to have a reasoned discussion.

Admittedly, I can not say for sure that I would be able to spot the fake certificates every time (especially the better ones), due to my lack of ability to read Japanese. However, there are certain things that have always made me suspicious, and your input in this discussion, has helped me to confirm several of those and given me a few more. Thank you for that! I have only to JMA certificates and your input has only confirmed that they are both legitimate. Thank you for that as well! By the way, both of my certificates are from Hobbs Sensei.

Further, in response to your comment: "Fulton I think your nose is still out of joint because you tried to trip me up with your question about only having 12 kata a few posts back and got an answer you didn’t expect.", it seems that YOU are pretty arrogant too ... to think that you could divine some hidden intent in my comments. For the record, I was not trying to trip you up at all. Go back and read my post, specifically:

"Now, I could draw ("jump to" would be more appropriate) a few conclusions and go off half-cocked making statements that are damaging by defaming someone's character or reputation, but that would not be fare to you, Mr. Logue, or Mr. Oyata ... would it?

I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point: That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard. I think your behavior falls far short of either standard and believe that Mr. Oyata would agree. Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with."

As I said, I was attempting to make a point ... that you apparently missed. As I said, I COULD HAVE jumped to conclusions and started talking crap about Mr. Oyata, based upon an apparent inconsistency on your web site, without checking the facts, but that would not be fare. Instead of bad mouthing Mr. Oyata, or you, I would have simply requested clarification. Quite frankly, I could not care less what kata Mr. Oyata (or you) learned from whom or teaches to whom because I am not affiliated with your organization and have no plans to be. People DO owe each other a minimum of courtesy, at least that is how I was raised. That minimum of courtesy would include not committing character assassination without checking your facts. And no, that two situations SEEM similar on the surface does NOT mean that they are necessarily the same. Also, although you are correct that such law suits are tough to win, please also consider the number of times that law suits are settled (by doctors or corporations) even though they know they're right because they know that it is not worth fighting it out. You can win in court and still loose (in the over all scheme of things) in the process.

Well, this has taken too much of my time so I will close by wishing you the best.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Originally posted by Dave Fulton

I was not, as you said, resorting to "character assassination" to support my views due to a lack of ability to continue a logical discussion.

You were doing it then and are doing it now with this long rant of yours that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You had little ground to stand on then to support your point of view just as you have little ground now.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
You were already doing enough of that and I simply was not going to join you. You seemed pretty darned hostile (to my perception) towards Hobbs Sensei, Michael and myself (without provocation I might add), and I didn't want to let your hostility suck me into looked to be nothing more than a pi$$ing match, so I was just going to walk away. I usually find that walking away works.

With out provication?…..hmmm……let me see.
I wouldn’t dream of telling you the contents of your house and would look like an idiot doing so unless I had actually been there. Kind of like you 2 telling me about those certificates without actually know what they say or the difference between a fake and a real one. Like I said they could have been menus from a sushi bar for all you know.
Then you start with a “character assassination” of me by saying I am “angry” and “Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion.” and how you “pity them”. That’s not character assassination? This was your attempt to try and discredit me be trying to make me out to be “the bad guy”. You have yet to produce any post in this thread that is supportive of your onion on the subject at hand. However, you have done an excellent job of trying to derail this thread and make it more about my character than anything else.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Which brings me to my second point. You keep hammering Michael over the head with comments that I made, which hardly seems like reasonable behavior. If you want to hammer someone over the head with my comments, then please direct your efforts towards the appropriate target ... me.

They were directed at you, I just used them as an example of someone who is clueless to the topic at hand. Can you actually support any of you points with any logic?…….you haven’t yet.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Admittedly, I can not say for sure that I would be able to spot the fake certificates every time (especially the better ones), due to my lack of ability to read Japanese. However, there are certain things that have always made me suspicious, and your input in this discussion, has helped me to confirm several of those and given me a few more. Thank you for that! I have only to JMA certificates and your input has only confirmed that they are both legitimate. Thank you for that as well! By the way, both of my certificates are from Hobbs Sensei.

How can they be Japanese and be from Hobbs at the same time?
Would you care to email them to me in jpeg form?

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
…… That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard.

Yes, and that is precisely why you will never find him or anyone in his organization claiming four 10th dans, three 9th dans, and a whole slew of menkyo kaidens……all of which take a lifetime of study to achieve one by one.

Mr. Rousselot

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You were doing it then and are doing it now with this long rant of yours that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You had little ground to stand on then to support your point of view just as you have little ground now.

I would like you to show me where in my last post I resorted to character assassination. Other than that, I have only posted 3 times in this thread.

My first post: Was in response to Pyros, where I offered some clarification regarding the connection between some of Hobbs Sensei's rank certificates. No character assassination there.

My second post: Was my response to two very derogatory posts about Hobbs Sensei that you made. In that post I stated that my perception, based upon the tone of your two posts, was that you were going to turn the thread into a pi$$ing match and that I was not interested in participating in it. This was an observation that I made based upon past experience with how the type of posts that you had made affect discussion on forums. I also brought up the apparent inconsistency on your web site which, as I have already tried to explain in two previous posts, was to make a point that if one sees an apparent inconsistency, they should check the facts (including seeking clarification) instead of bad mouthing the person. I also advised you to use caution because there are people who will bring suit at the drop of a hat (a pain in the neck that no one really wants to deal with). No character assassination there.

My third post: Was to Mr. Byrd, in which my intent was to advise him not to worry about your comments. I said that your approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that you were unwilling to review any evidence that runs contrary to your opinion, was more damaging to your own reputation than anyone else's. You had in fact been making accusations without checking the facts of the case in question and that you were hurting yourself more than anyone was my opinion from personal observations of past situations. I think it was you who said "People are allowed to state their opinion on the Internet or anywhere." So, no character assassination there. However, in this post I also said:

"Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pity them."

Now here is the only place where I will concede that my statements could be misconstrued as character assassination. However, it was not my intention and for that I apologize. I referred to you directly instead of the behavior that you had exhibited, which is what I was actually speaking of. When people make derogatory comments, like the ones that you made, right off the bat and then openly refuse to review any evidence offered to them, it has been my experience that they do more to put themselves in a bad light than who or whatever they are speaking against. I sort of pity those people because they may have the best of intentions and may be correct, but their behavior prevents people from listening to their message and as a result, they hurt their own cause.


Originally posted by RyuShiKan

With out provication?…..hmmm……let me see.
I wouldn’t dream of telling you the contents of your house and would look like an idiot doing so unless I had actually been there. Kind of like you 2 telling me about those certificates without actually know what they say or the difference between a fake and a real one. Like I said they could have been menus from a sushi bar for all you know.

Oh, but you did presume to "tell me the contents of (my) house" because you had already presumed that I do not read, speak or write the Japanese language.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Then you start with a “character assassination” of me by saying I am “angry” and “Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion.” and how you “pity them”. That’s not character assassination? This was your attempt to try and discredit me be trying to make me out to be “the bad guy”.

Saying that you seem to have a lot of hostility was a personal observation, an opinion. I think it was you who said "People are allowed to state their opinion on the Internet or anywhere." As for the "Unfortunately, there will always be people ...", I have already addressed that above and apologized, but again ... I apologize if you misunderstood what I was trying to say. However, IF I did think that you AS A PERSON are a waste of time, then that would be my personal opinion, which I would be entitled to state .... by your own admission.

Once again, this has taken more of my time than I would have liked it to, so I will end here.

I sincerely wish you the best in the future.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

And the pi$$ing match continues.....still can't find anything to support your point of view about the certificates I guess.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
........Oh, but you did presume to "tell me the contents of (my) house" because you had already presumed that I do not read, speak or write the Japanese language.
Dave Fulton

Do you?

If you can then surely you can translate this with no trouble:

‰«“ê‚Ì“`“�“I‚È�õ‚ß•¨�A�gŒ^�i‚Ñ‚ñ‚ª‚½�j‚ð�}ˆÄ‚Æ‚µ‚½ �ØŽè�B
�@�gŒ^‚ÍŒ^Ž†‚ðŽg—p‚µ‚Ä‚Ì�uŒ^’u‚«�v‚ƌĂ΂ê‚é‚à‚Ì‚Æ �A•z‚ð’¼�Ú�õ‚ß‚é�u“›•`‚«�v‚ƌĂ΂ê‚é‹Z–@‚Ì“ñ‚‚ª‚_ ‚邪�A—R—ˆ‚â‹NŒ¹‚Í•s–¾‚Å‚_‚é�B
�@‚µ‚©‚µ�\”ª�¢‹I�_‚ɂ͈È�ã‹Z–@‚Å�õ‚ß‚ç‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚½‚悤 ‚Å�A‰¤‰Æ‚â�ã—¬ŠK‹‰‚ň¤—p(�Ž–¯‚Í’…—p‚Å‚«‚È‚©‚Á‚½)‚³ ‚ꂽ‚è�A—x‚è‚̈ß�Ö‚È‚Ç‚É‚à—p‚¢‚ç‚ꂽ�BˆÊŠK‚â‰ÆŠi‚É ‚æ‚蕶—l‚Ì‘å�E�¬‚â–§�E‘e‚ÌŠî�€‚ª‚_‚Á‚½‚Æ‚¢‚¤�B


(you will need to go to "encoding" on your task bar to change over to Japanese.)

�B

Is this a period?

Originally posted by arnisador
Is this a period?

Yes it is.
That is the kind the Japanese language software kicks out instead of the regular "."

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
And the pi$$ing match continues......

I must say that you are an interesting person. You accused me of character assassination, so I reviewed my previous statements to see if your accusation was reasonable. I found one statement that was questionable and so I offered both an explanation of what I meant and an apology for not being more clear. Yet ... I'm continuing the pi$$ing match?


Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Do you?

No I do not, but again you have either missed or ignored my point. My point was that you had already presumed that I did not, perhaps because you presumed that if I did read Japanese, then I would have read every single word on the certificate and analyzed it for authenticity. Even if I could read Japanese I would not have read and analyzed the entire certificate because I trust Hobbs Sensei and would see no need. I would only go to that much trouble if I distrusted a person ... but then I wouldn't be studying under someone at all if I distrusted them. I could get my certificates and your comment translated fairly easily (I work with a Japanese client and frequently require translations), but I do not see the point in either case because I trust Hobbs Sensei and because I don't care what you wrote in your post.

I find it interesting that you posts smack of cynicism and character assassination and yet you whine when you perceive either directed at you.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
……..Yet ... I'm continuing the pi$$ing match?

You keep responding to anything I post.




Originally posted by Dave Fulton
…….. My point was that you had already presumed that I did not, perhaps because you presumed that if I did read Japanese, then I would have read every single word on the certificate and analyzed it for authenticity.

No need to look at every single word, just a basic look at them would tell you they aren’t real.
Bogus “hanko” (stamp), made on a word processor instead of hand written…….basic things like that would tell you they were fake.



Originally posted by Dave Fulton
…….. Even if I could read Japanese I would not have read and analyzed the entire certificate because I trust Hobbs Sensei and would see no need.

Blind faith is great…………

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
…….. I would only go to that much trouble if I distrusted a person ... but then I wouldn't be studying under someone at all if I distrusted them.

Seeing those certificates would be my first clue not to trust them.
But like I said 2 or 3 times before, he may have some skill and you may learn something from him but those certificates are as fake as a $3 bill.


Anyway, back on topic…………


I am always curious why it is Westerners feel the need to pad their resume with bloated dan ranks.
I have yet to see a Japanese or Okinawan teacher that claims as many 10th dans, Soke titles, and Menkyo kai den as I see in the west.

It was always my understanding the to reach 10th dan certain conditions had to be met.

1) You needed to study 1 style for a good many years……like 40~50.
2) You had to be the most senior student and come up through the ranks by training at the honbu.
3) Be the most senior student and your teacher would have had to pass away before you were eligible to be a 10th dan.

Taking #3 into account I hope I never reach 10th dan.

There are certain schools and organizations in Japan and Okinawa that have “sold out” and started selling 9th and 10th dans to westerners as a way to get some cash and promote the style abroad in the process. All though they may seem authentic in appearance these certificates are not worth the paper they are written on given the situations they are obtained under.