I was just curious, I'd heard this term bandied about from time to time in diverse corners of the internet and finally can't take it anymore.... what is it? I always thought it was just a term for a really fast check, the kind you do 'on the way to' a target. Maybe I'm wrong. That's happened before. (Just ask J.D., he was there when I was wrong that one time)
Anyway, I've always considered myself a fairly 'informed' Kenpoist, but I guess I skipped this class.
Thanks for any and all enlightenment....
Your Brother
John

Hey Brother J,

I've only heard one person refer to something as a slap-check, so I thought I would post their definition as it is written on their site.



398) SLAP-BLOCK - An open handed palm strike used defensively as a blocking maneuver. See LAP-SAO.
399) SLAP-CHECK - An open handed palm strike that positions the hand to possibly be used offensively and/or defensively, and assists timing, and/or power through directional harmony. See PAK-SAO.
400) SLAP-CHECK - A hit that may be used offensively and/or defensively that positions the hands and assists timing, and/or power through directional harmony.

pasted from Sublevel4 website



According to this definition, I can guarantee you that you are already doing this. It's in every technique, all the timing patterns, and the 2 man sets in the AKKI. Remember it's not the name that is important but the principles.

The FMA guys do a stick drill that they call Siniwali. We know it as the 6 count. It is, for all practical purposes, the same drill. So it's not the name that makes it important but your ability to use this principle under fire. Hope this helps, but I'm sure we will be hearing from "others" very shortly.

Hope to see you in March.

I get it.
Cool. So it's a term that Mr. Chapel uses. OK. Like he's fond of saying... "You say tommato..."

Interesting side note: 6 count.
YEARS ago I attended a FMA seminar by Grandmaster Presas and learnd sinawali.... been doing it for years now, and really like it. I especially like to do it empty-handed and alter the strikes, or to look at them as parry-strike, parry-strike. Gets interesting! More than glad to see pretty much the same thing in our curriculum!!!

I also hope to see you in March. IF (and that's a word bigger than it's letters) IF I can get the funds together. Getting from Kansas to Vegas is no small jump for this poor boy!

Later Bro..
Your Brother
John

John,
You won't be able to use that excuse for much longer...with that new airline that is supposed to go directly to Vegas from Wichita. :):D

Do you know when that's supposed to start???
That'll be much better, as long as the rates are reasonable.
thanks
your bro
John

Are Slap-Checks related to Rebounding?
I had not really noticed this term "Rebounding" until I was at Mr. Speakman's seminar last week, but I found it in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo so I guess it has been around for some time. I think Mr. Speakman demonstrated it in a '94 seminar but he didn't give it a name or I didn't notice.

I thought Slap-Checks had something to do with the "depth-charge" effects of Mr. Parker's strikes.

I'm confused about all this if Mr. C or Doc want to chime in, I know this is out there on the web somewhere. If it is also covered here in MT, let me know and I'll go read it. Thanks.

After the first time I seen the "slap check" I thought it should be more appropriately called a "rebounding check" . That's just my thought.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
After the first time I seen the "slap check" I thought it should be more appropriately called a "rebounding check" . That's just my thought.

Not necessarily. Slap checks are techniques that belong within offensive and defensive movements. Conceptually they run very deep and have sub cats and multiple principles working within thier framework simultaneously depending on application of course.

Originally posted by Rainman
Not necessarily. Slap checks are techniques that belong within offensive and defensive movements. Conceptually they run very deep and have sub cats and multiple principles working within thier framework simultaneously depending on application of course.

Absolutely correct. You da "Rain - Man." The definition on our site is a simplistic one used to explain it to beginners. The depth of the "slap-check" goes waaaaaaaaaaay beyond such simple concepts as "rebounding" or "positioning." They must be taught within the framework of the applications, and executed incorrectly, can cause significant damage to those using them in a true combat scenario.

Although Mr. Parker "slap-checked, he NEVER wrote one word about their proper use. Although he learned them from several notable Chinese Masters, his early use of them most resembled his lessons from the Chinese art "Slapping Hands" as learned from Ark Wong and "Tiny" lefiti.

Kinda makes you wonder what else he DIDN'T teach everybody;)

OK, here's what I'm looking at as a slap check. Maybe I don't have the exact concept either of you two (rainman and doc) have. Circles of proctection; the movement of the left hand moving from the chin and checking the attacker's right arm down. From this position my right hand strikes the groin and the left loads up shoulder height to bounce off of and to strike the opponent's face. This is what "I" would call a rebounding check. Are we kind of on the same lines? This is just the first example that came to mind.

Originally posted by Doc
Kinda makes you wonder what else he DIDN'T teach everybody;)

White flag. Peace. White flag. :wavey:

I was shocked at this so I waited for a time and place to bring it up.

But in the Mr. Speakman seminar I recently attended, when he was elaborating on the knife techniques he changed he said that he changed them to reflect what they had been doing in knife fighting workouts with Mr. Paker.

He said that is why he changed them, to be consistent with what they were doing in knife fighting. If other people didn't understand or didn't like it or thought they needed to go to other arts to study knifework, he disagreed. He said something like he was not responsible for what Mr. Parker didn't teach them or what they didn't know, but that he was working off of/from what Mr. Parker was working with him and his classmates at Mr. Parker's house.

Sounded very familiar to me. I wonder where I'd heard something like that before... :eek:

Thanks for posting Doc. Nice to read from you again.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Doc
Absolutely correct. You da "Rain - Man." The definition on our site is a simplistic one used to explain it to beginners. The depth of the "slap-check" goes waaaaaaaaaaay beyond such simple concepts as "rebounding" or "positioning." They must be taught within the framework of the applications, and executed incorrectly, can cause significant damage to those using them in a true combat scenario.

Although Mr. Parker "slap-checked, he NEVER wrote one word about their proper use. Although he learned them from several notable Chinese Masters, his early use of them most resembled his lessons from the Chinese art "Slapping Hands" as learned from Ark Wong and "Tiny" lefiti.

Kinda makes you wonder what else he DIDN'T teach everybody;)

Well that's obvious- it would have to be my other new best friend pam and all her friends that work with her!!! :p

:asian:

Originally posted by cdhall
White flag. Peace. White flag. :wavey:

I was shocked at this so I waited for a time and place to bring it up.

But in the Mr. Speakman seminar I recently attended, when he was elaborating on the knife techniques he changed he said that he changed them to reflect what they had been doing in knife fighting workouts with Mr. Paker.

He said that is why he changed them, to be consistent with what they were doing in knife fighting. If other people didn't understand or didn't like it or thought they needed to go to other arts to study knifework, he disagreed. He said something like he was not responsible for what Mr. Parker didn't teach them or what they didn't know, but that he was working off of/from what Mr. Parker was working with him and his classmates at Mr. Parker's house.

Sounded very familiar to me. I wonder where I'd heard something like that before... :eek:

Thanks for posting Doc. Nice to read from you again.:rolleyes:

i have read a few old interviews of mr. speakman where he speaks of "doc" chapel as his teacher of material that he wasn't aware of at the time of Mr. Parker's passing.

i too am glad to see Doc posting again.

the old chinese have a saying that goes"You can never tell how deep is the sea, until you jump in it".--- for those who think they know and are so sure of themselves in their knowledge of certain things--that alone should tell them that they are merely treading water.

peace

:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman
Well that's obvious- it would have to be my other new best friend pam and all her friends that work with her!!! :p

:asian:

Now you know nobody got that one but me.

Originally posted by Doc
Now you know nobody got that one but me.

Right. I was wondering what happened. I'm glad I was not supposed to "get it."
:confused:

Originally posted by Doc
Now you know nobody got that one but me.

You talking about a platform alignment mechanism? Or am I reading too much into your inside joke...:D

jb:asian:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
You talking about a platform alignment mechanism? Or am I reading too much into your inside joke...:D

jb:asian:

Thank you everyone fr the kind comments. It is much appreciated.

JB, it's only an "inside joke" if you are on the outside. Obviously you're not. You aren't the only one that has visited me you know. Some have actually come THIS millieum. :asian:

Originally posted by Doc
Thank you everyone fr the kind comments. It is much appreciated.

JB, it's only an "inside joke" if you are on the outside. Obviously you're not. You aren't the only one that has visited me you know. Some have actually come THIS millieum. :asian:

LOL, I definitely need to make it back up there (maybe this year) if I'm still welcome.

jb:asian:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
LOL, I definitely need to make it back up there (maybe this year) if I'm still welcome.

jb:asian:
If you can find the "secret location." :) You probably forgot. You might be surprised who you run into. Quite a few have been "sneeking in." ;)

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
OK, here's what I'm looking at as a slap check. Maybe I don't have the exact concept either of you two (rainman and doc) have. Circles of proctection; the movement of the left hand moving from the chin and checking the attacker's right arm down. From this position my right hand strikes the groin and the left loads up shoulder height to bounce off of and to strike the opponent's face. This is what "I" would call a rebounding check. Are we kind of on the same lines? This is just the first example that came to mind.

I was wondering if Doc or Rainman were going to answer my question up here. Rainman you know I definately value your opinion when it comes to kenpo. Doc, I value your experience and knowledge as well. When either of you talked about the principles here it went over my head. I'm sorry for that but it did. I don't know if others felt the same way but I for one wondered what you guys meant.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I was wondering if Doc or Rainman were going to answer my question up here.

Doesn't look like it. Maybe they forgot about ya.

Are Slap-Checks related to Rebounding?

Rebounding was explained to me as using your own body to speed up your strikes. Instead of having to retract/slow down/stop/start motion in a different dir/speed up/hit, you would just retract at full speed and bounce off of your own body to a different target on your opponent.

1) Can you 'rebound' off your opponent and still stay true to the idea of rebounding, wouldn't your opponent have to be folded in half for you to rebound off one part of their body to another?

2) Is trampolining also a term that is used?

Thanks,
Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
Can you 'rebound' off your opponent and still stay true to the idea of rebounding

Thanks,
Rob

Yes. :)

Yes.

Can you expand on that with an example please.

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
[B]Rebounding was explained to me as using your own body to speed up your strikes.


you would just retract at full speed and bounce off of your own body..


What do you mean "retract?" Is there a purpose?


1) Can you 'rebound' off your opponent and still stay true to the idea of rebounding,


As I understand it, yes.


wouldn't your opponent have to be folded in half for you to rebound off one part of their body to another?


Only if you think of "rebounding" as having to retrace it's own path.


2) Is trampolining also a term that is used?


Not by me.

Well, I think one of the seniors would be able to put it in words better than I would with my limited knowledge of the subject. (I'm only a brown belt)

What do you mean "retract?" Is there a purpose?

I guess that was a little vague, you would be retracting to execute another strike. For eg. after a palm to the face retract, 'bounce' off of your chest into a downward handsword/palm heel to the lower stomach area causing settling which sets you up for...sorry got carried away again.

Only if you think of "rebounding" as having to retrace it's own path.

Rebounding doesn't have to retrace it's own path but shouldn't the path of action be relatively linear? For the example above the path of action would be a 'V' shape on it's side with the open end facing the opponent. If it didn't follw a linear path it wouldn't be a true rebound off of the target or your own body. It would end up being a glancing type of action which would rob you of power and speed.

Well, I think one of the seniors would be able to put it in words better than I would with my limited knowledge of the subject. (I'm only a brown belt)

You gotta give it a try, this board is pretty friendly and if you word your response politely I'm sure you'll do okay. And if you are wrong then somebody will post with the right answer. There's enough knowledge here that we'll end up with the right answer sooner or later.

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
I guess that was little vague, you would be retracting to execute another strike. For eg. after a palm to the face retract, 'bounce' off of your chest into a downward handsword/palm heel to the lower stomach area causing settling which sets you up for...sorry got carried away again.

Rob

Nope. There is a misconception you may "rebound" off any part of your body. You may only rebound from certain places without setting yourself up for an injury.

1) have your partner strike you in the shoulder several times to get a feel so that every strike has the same amount of power.

2) strike yourself in the chest or rib area and set a rythym that your partner can pick up on.

3) have your partner "time" his strike to your shoulder just after you strike yourself as close as possible.

You should notice an appreciably greater effect on you when his strike is timed with your own "rebound."

Take note and for your purposes you should never rebound from anywhere but the front of your shoulder without further instruction.

You should notice an appreciably greater effect on you when his strike is timed with your own "rebound."

So...you would be amplifying the effect of his strike on you by choosing that moment to 'rebound'?

Take note and for your purposes you should never rebound from anywhere but the front of your shoulder without further instruction.

As in... right hand back knuckle, left hand uppercut as right hand retracts to left shoulder and rebounds to...right hand sword?

Just trying to clarify.

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
So...you would be amplifying the effect of his strike on you by choosing that moment to 'rebound'?



As in... right hand back knuckle, left hand uppercut as right hand retracts to left shoulder and rebounds to...right hand sword?

Just trying to clarify.

Rob

Not as you understand it or in your example, but in a manner of speaking - yes.

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
Well, I think one of the seniors would be able to put it in words better than I would with my limited knowledge of the subject. (I'm only a brown belt)

Please don't charecterize yourself as "just a brown belt." Knowledge knows no rank. It only knows who does, and who doesn't know.

Please don't charecterize yourself as "just a brown belt." Knowledge knows no rank. It only knows who does, and who doesn't know.

Yeah, just look at me. I've been trying to understand this rebound thing for the last 10 posts and I have still not gotten it.

:(

Rob

methinks what you guys are calling Rebounding...I know as Trampolining...

let's see...say you execute a left palm heel to an opponent's right kidney (impact) and you use the force of their body "pushing" your strike back (the trampolining effect) and ride that force back to your own body (impact, with another trampoline effect) to down execute a downward palmheel to their right thigh/quadrecep. now...was that coherent, or am I just babbling?

Originally posted by Chronuss
methinks what you guys are calling Rebounding...I know as Trampolining...

let's see...say you execute a left palm heel to an opponent's right kidney (impact) and you use the force of their body "pushing" your strike back (the trampolining effect) and ride that force back to your own body (impact, with another trampoline effect) to down execute a downward palmheel to their right thigh/quadrecep. now...was that coherent, or am I just babbling?

That is not a scenario I would entertain, nor would I use the term "Trampolining."

Originally posted by Robbo
Yeah, just look at me. I've been trying to understand this rebound thing for the last 10 posts and I have still not gotten it.

:(

Rob

It's not because you're a brown belt, it's because you don't know. What you DO know is this medium does have significant limiations communicating physical interactions.

It's not because you're a brown belt, it's because you don't know. What you DO know is this medium does have significant limiations communicating physical interactions.

Sometimes these yes and no answers frustrate me. But you are right sometimes it is just not easily explained through this forum.

Another question though :D

If you used rebounding off of your opponent would you not be losing depth of penetration?

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
Sometimes these yes and no answers frustrate me. But you are right sometimes it is just not easily explained through this forum.

Another question though :D

If you used rebounding off of your opponent would you not be losing depth of penetration?

Rob

What makes you think Depth of Penetration is so important, assuming you might be correct in some instances?

What makes you think Depth of Penetration is so important, assuming you might be correct in some instances?

My thinking is that to use the rebounding effect, the strike or impact would have to be fast and powerful. It's hard to use rebounding off of a finger poke to the eye as the strike itself does not need much power to cause damage and the target itself does not have the 'ideal' attributes to rebound off of.

So...if you are using a fast, powerful strike then depth of penetration is a consideration, depending on the desired effect you would want DOP in various degrees. I'm really just asking if you try to 'rebound' are you trading off DOP?

Thanks,
Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
My thinking is that to use the rebounding effect, the strike or impact would have to be fast and powerful. It's hard to use rebounding off of a finger poke to the eye as the strike itself does not need much power to cause damage and the target itself does not have the 'ideal' attributes to rebound off of.

So...if you are using a fast, powerful strike then depth of penetration is a consideration, depending on the desired effect you would want DOP in various degrees. I'm really just asking if you try to 'rebound' are you trading off DOP?

Thanks,
Rob

The answer in all of your instances is no. If I were you I would unbind myself to Depth of Penetration and "get out of the motion box." Otherwise you're resigned to a desputable fact that a "ball can only bounce fast and hard." Is that true?

The answer in all of your instances is no. If I were you I would unbind myself to Depth of Penetration and "get out of the motion box." Otherwise you're resigned to a desputable fact that a "ball can only bounce fast and hard." Is that true?

No, but now you've gone past my understanding of rebounding and are in a theoretical space that is beyond me....at this time.

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
No, but now you've gone past my understanding of rebounding and are in a theoretical space that is beyond me....at this time.

Rob

It's a comparitive analysis and not really theory. You can bounce a ball hard and fast but you don't have to. Depends on theory of the technique really.

It's a comparitive analysis and not really theory. You can bounce a ball hard and fast but you don't have to. Depends on theory of the technique really.

Wasn't really talking about the ball. I understand that. It's how you apply all the other stuff that is only thery to me because I haven't put it into practise.

Rob

Originally posted by Robbo
Wasn't really talking about the ball. I understand that. It's how you apply all the other stuff that is only thery to me because I haven't put it into practise.

Rob

Do you? How about this- what happens when you bounce a ball off a window? You run the risk of damaging it do you not? There are some windows on you body.

Originally posted by Rainman
It's a comparitive analysis and not really theory. You can bounce a ball hard and fast but you don't have to. Depends on theory of the technique really.

Exactly. I owe you a BAM. (not a typo)

Originally posted by Robbo
No, but now you've gone past my understanding of rebounding and are in a theoretical space that is beyond me....at this time.

Rob

That's what I said in the beginning. You are working within prescribed knowledge limitations created by your study. If you ever meet me, I will challenge everything you think you know and make you re-think it. (and throw a bunch away)

Originally posted by Rainman
Do you? How about this- what happens when you bounce a ball off a window? You run the risk of damaging it do you not? There are some windows on you body.

I like that analogy. May I use It?

Originally posted by Doc
That is not a scenario I would entertain, nor would I use the term "Trampolining." The scenario he described was not a good one. The term "trampolining" came from my OLD instructor, a Tracy stylist, which is why I have no doubt that you would not use it. The Basic premise is using a part of your body, normally your shoulder, pectoral, or bicep to redirect and increase the speed of a strike. It is used in conjunction with a change of angle and/or plane. When applying this principle, a part of your opponen't anatomy may also be used. Done incorrectly, you can and probably will hurt yourself.

Originally posted by Doc
I like that analogy. May I use It?

Of course- Your material gave me the idea anyways;)

Originally posted by Doc
Exactly. I owe you a BAM. (not a typo)

I am hip for that- whatever it is!

:asian:

Originally posted by Seig
The scenario he described was not a good one. The term "trampolining" came from my OLD instructor, a Tracy stylist, which is why I have no doubt that you would not use it. The Basic premise is using a part of your body, normally your shoulder, pectoral, or bicep to redirect and increase the speed of a strike. It is used in conjunction with a change of angle and/or plane. When applying this principle, a part of your opponen't anatomy may also be used. Done incorrectly, you can and probably will hurt yourself.

That is a most informative explanation and points out one of the many differences in understanding, induced by a lack of communication due to teacher inconsistencies of interpretation.

I have often spoke of the lack of a firm curriculum between most kenpoists because of the conceptual nature of the commercial product by design. When instructors are left to, or forced to create, there will always be confusion outside of their influence.

By the way I do not automatically reject terminology without an extensive examination of what it purports to express. It is just unfortunate that many of the principles utilized in my interpretation do not "cross-platform" well with motion based interpretations. The term "Trampolining" is a good one now that you have explained it, (although it may have some technical flaws about where you strike your body), but Ed Parker had already created "Rebounding" as a subcategory of the term "Slapcheck" in my teaching, so I would find it unneccessary.

There is at least one "Old Tracy Fart" besides Al, I communicate with on a regular basis.:D

Originally posted by Rainman
I am hip for that- whatever it is!

:asian:

Body Alignment Mechanism
like the Slap-Check to the shoulder prior to an outward elbow I shared with you.

It performs multiple functions of energy, body alignment, rebounding, and creates a GCM.

(send the check to the PO Box:D )

I saw this article on a website called PRACTICAL MARTIAL ARTS (http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk).

Is this an application or an understanding of a Slap-Check?
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


SLAP YOURSELF SILLY........

Slap! Slap! Slap! This is a sound that you will hear upon entering into an American Kenpo, Shaolin Long Fist, or various other styles of karate and kung fu's class. People seem to be slapping themselves while performing the techniques of this system. Have you ever wondered what they were really doing? Have you ever wondered if the martial artists themselves knew what they were doing?

In this article I will attempt to give ONE possible explanation f or this odd looking movement. Please understand that there are as many more explanations as there are stars in the heavens. This is not THE ANSWER for this rebounding motion, but instead it is MY ANSWER.

The Technique:

Observe a high ranking American Kenpo stylist and you might notice this person will appear to slap themselves, usually on the chest area, while performing the various hand techniques of the art. One hand will go out to strike the opponent, then rebound off their body and go out and strike the attacker again. This process gets repeated at very high speeds in a movement. Please understand that there are as many more explanations as there are stars in the heavens. This is not THE ANSWER for this rebounding motion, but instead it is MY ANSWER.

The Technique:

Observe a high ranking American Kenpo stylist and you might notice this person will appear to slap themselves, usually on the chest area, while performing the various hand techniques of the art. One hand will go out to strike the opponent, then rebound off their body and go out and strike the attacker again. This process gets repeated at very high speeds in a

To rebound the technique off the body
To minimize the harm done to the attacker (training partner)
To indicate where the technique will land on the attacker by striking yourself in the same spot
To ensure that the strike is given in a relaxed, whipping manner
Some people I spoke with had not idea why they did this motion in their forms.

My Reason for Slapping Myself:

I tend to view the martial arts from a TCM (Traditional Chinese Medical) viewpoint. I find value in the theory of Chi (Qi, Ki, parna, life-force, energy). I believe that there are several locations on the human body where the Chi can be affected. These areas are commonly called pressure points and the art of manipulating these areas can do by many names including: kyusho, dim-mak, vital point applications, hyul-dul, and a host of other names. It is from this tradition that I draw the following theory in regards to slapping yourself.

Try this simple experiment with a partner:

First, locate the pressure point called Lung One on yourself. This point is located where the arm and shoulder meet. It lies about one inch under the clavicle (collar bone) towards the arm. Press around with light, finger tip pressure until you find a painful spot. Now find the same pressure point on your partner using the same method of light, fingertip pressure.

Next, strike your partner in this area VERY LIGHTLY!!!! This strike is not a full cocked punch but instead more of a heavy push. Just give your partner a little tap and then ask them to remember the amount of pain they felt.

The next step is now to strike yourself in Lung One with a slapping motion and then rebound off that slap and strike your partner in Lung One. Again, please PLAY NICE and go not hit them hard. Ask your partner to remember the results of this strike and compare it to the first one. If you were on target the effects of the second strike (with the self slap) should be much greater.

This is due to the fact you are doing several things with this technique:

You are maintaining a 'soft body'
You are executing a whip-like strike
You are attacking a pressure point on the body (a cluster of nerves in this case)
You are 'programming' in your mind the exact location of Lung One on your partner by first striking there on yourself.
Try this out with several of your techniques to is if your results are not greatly improved. Remember, this technique is not for everyone or for every situation. This movement is greatly telegraphed if the attacker can see you slapping yourself or knows what you are doing. Only use this technique when you have the attacker in a position where they can not see you due to some obstruction in their line of sight or some movement of deception you have preformed.

Here is a good technique to try this combination on. It is the classic Delayed Sword: from American Kenpo’s curriculum.

Attacker reaches out with the right hand to grasp the collar or lapel of the defender. Defender steps back to perform a right inward block (strike) to the attackers radial nerve area.

Defender then steps into a cat stance and executes a low front snap kick to the attackers exposed abdomen, bladder, groin, or femoral artery region. This action will double the attacker over, obstructing the vision, allowing the time needed by the defender to perform the 'self-slapping' motion before the follow-up strike. The defender then executes the self-slap and strikes at a target of opportunity.

Originally posted by Samurai
PRACTICAL MARTIAL ARTS (http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk).

Is this an application or an understanding of a Slap-Check?
Thanks
Jeremy Bays



NO. Written by someone who admitted they had no idea.

Originally posted by Doc
Body Alignment Mechanism
like the Slap-Check to the shoulder prior to an outward elbow I shared with you.

It performs multiple functions of energy, body alignment, rebounding, and creates a GCM.

(send the check to the PO Box:D )

Hey that ain't in my book! Pams torso cousin? Or does it also work for the pedestal #3 area? And also is that (bam) a sub cat of a bracing s-ck or do they all fall under s-ck and then sub cat to a bam with a bracing s-ck under bam?

Originally posted by Doc
It's not because you're a brown belt, it's because you don't know. What you DO know is this medium does have significant limiations communicating physical interactions.

Yeah, what he said. :D

Originally posted by Rainman
Hey that ain't in my book! Pams torso cousin? Or does it also work for the pedestal #3 area? And also is that (bam) a sub cat of a bracing s-ck or do they all fall under s-ck and then sub cat to a bam with a bracing s-ck under bam?

The term "slap-check " was always used as a "catch-all" mechanism under Parker, but they perform different functions that include subcategories of function. As an example, a BAM includes a slap-check depending on use, but every BAM is not a slap-check.

Some BAM's are PAM's. Some slap-checks are BRACING. Some are energy conduits and "drains" or "wipes," and some "all of the above" and more. I had to begin to create terminology to separate the many functions.

The only way to learn is to concentrate on how to move and be functional. As you become physically capable and effective, than the why is taught to you a little at a time. You cannot teach or discover this information for yourself because unlike motion, it is not conceptual. It is real and you must prove it consistently on the floor. not talk about it.

The most important thing in study is to become a "warrior" first because we are a self-defense art. There is a tendancy for many to want to be the "scholar" at the same time and concentrate one "whys." There are significant limitations to that method of study.

Fact:
You cannot be the warrior while trying to be the scholar and vice versa. Only through becoming the warrior will the schorlarly information and experience begin to make sense as you slowly assimilate it from a "scholar."

Because of the "conceptual" structure of the Ed Parker commercial model, many have chosen to "over intellectualize" and speak in great detail of concepts they neither understand nor can actually realistically perform. Parker said these people do "hypothetical Kenpo," talking about what they "could do," instead of what "they did."

I guess if I were to sum up what SubLevel Four is about to a student, I guess I would say, "You must prove you can properly and effectively perform the technique. You are given only enough information to be functional. Other than that, talking about it is not acceptable until you can do it."

Becuase I thought I was reasonably intelligent I asked Parker a lot of questions as well. Some he answered, many he would just ignor. That was my clue when he didn't answer. One day I asked a really technical question in an effort to truly understand what he was trying to get me to do. He stopped, looked at me, and said with a smile on his face, "Which would you rather have? The knowledge of why you do a technique a certain way or the ability to do it?" I said, "Ideally, I would like both." He said, "That's what I said when I was asked the same question." He continued, "We all have a limited amount of time to learn. You should learn how while you can still do, and if you don't run out of time, you might learn why if someone will teach you. If you concentrate on all the reasons why, you won't have time to learn how. You'll run out of time."

So it is with the old Chinese methods. Much time is spent (I remember) learning how to move with little explanation. Only after years of training and if they like you, do they begin to tell you why. I spent enough time to make "black sash" under a Chinese Grandmaster (Ark Wong) who rarely told me "why" to do anything. His favorite expression, in broken English was, "Don't let them get your bird." as he pointed at my groin. It wasn't until I met Ed Parker did he begin to explain much of my previous trainiing.

Now at least I tell students some "whys" why as they go along, but in most instances they still have to prove to me they can do it first. Than maybe some of the "whys" will make sense. Ed Parker was right. I'm glad if he had to "run out of time," it was on the why end. He taught me "how to do" which now allows me to work on some of the "whys" I missed. If I knew "why" and he was gone, I coud never learn to "do." That would be like learning to swim on the internet.

As usual (unfortunately), he was right.

Doc,

Is it possible to give us a VERY BASIC, step-by-step sequence for a slap-check?

I know that "the devils in the details" but I would like something to see. Sort of a video clip for the mind.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Originally posted by Samurai
Doc,

Is it possible to give us a VERY BASIC, step-by-step sequence for a slap-check?

I know that "the devils in the details" but I would like something to see. Sort of a video clip for the mind.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

It is a part of our "basics" and is taught to white belts.

Stand in a training horse. Execute a right outward handsword to 3:00.

At the moment the handsword should make contact, slap the front of your right shoulder simultaneously.

END LESSON

Some BAM's are PAM's. Some slap-checks are BRACING. Some are energy conduits and "drains" or "wipes," and some "all of the above" and more. I had to begin to create terminology to separate the many functions.

This is what- why is nervous system theory

The only way to learn is to concentrate on how to move and be functional. As you become physically capable and effective, than the why is taught to you a little at a time. You cannot teach or discover this information for yourself because unlike motion, it is not conceptual. It is real and you must prove it consistently on the floor. not talk about it.

Already been proven- I can feel pams, gcm, and slap cks working in unison. You showed me the five basic blocks with the s-cks, block strike samething system wide. No more 3rd class levers to strike with. Besides you brought up bams- just a slap ck to me. Or at least it was... I'll take my cd now!

:asian:

Originally posted by Rainman
This is what- why is nervous system theory



Already been proven- I can feel pams, gcm, and slap cks working in unison. You showed me the five basic blocks with the s-cks, block strike samething system wide. No more 3rd class levers to strike with. Besides you brought up bams- just a slap ck to me. Or at least it was... I'll take my cd now!

:asian:

Pesky dude ain'tcha!

Originally posted by Doc
Pesky dude ain'tcha!

LOL. And don't think I didn't see that s-ck to the leg with your foot going into crossing talon in short 3!


:asian:

Originally posted by Doc
...That would be like learning to swim on the internet.

As usual (unfortunately), he was right.

Outstanding Doc,

That whole thing was one of the best things I've seen you write here.

Certainly my original teacher emphasized "how" or what to do and delved less into "why" until later on.

Thanks again for posting.

:asian:

Originally posted by Doc
The most important thing in study is to become a "warrior" first because we are a self-defense art. There is a tendancy for many to want to be the "scholar" at the same time and concentrate one "whys." There are significant limitations to that method of study.

As usual another great post Dr. Chapel! I like the analogy you used in this paragraph. Many lessons can be learned here. :asian:


P.S. Dr. Chapel. Do you have an plans on being in columbus again this year??

Originally posted by Doc
It is a part of our "basics" and is taught to white belts.

Stand in a training horse. Execute a right outward handsword to 3:00.

At the moment the handsword should make contact, slap the front of your right shoulder simultaneously.

END LESSON

Doc,

I heard at one time that the BKF had some sort of slap check drills to increase hand speed. How invloved were you in the creation of these? And if these did infact exist does that mean that the BKF was actively working on some form of slap check way back when? (or was this after your time) Also how long were you actively involved with the BKF, of course from inception, but what was the timeframe?

jb:asian:

i have read a few old interviews of mr. speakman where he speaks of "doc" chapel as his teacher of material that he wasn't aware of at the time of Mr. Parker's passing.

Yeah, but that was before he decided he knew everything.

Doc,

I heard at one time that the BKF had some sort of slap check drills to increase hand speed. How invloved were you in the creation of these? And if these did infact exist does that mean that the BKF was actively working on some form of slap check way back when? (or was this after your time) Also how long were you actively involved with the BKF, of course from inception, but what was the timeframe?

jb:asian:

No. outside of my own group. Unfortunately the organization is completely devoid of martial arts structure and an understanding of basic MA skills beyond "sparring." Something that everybody in the "hood" picked up quickly, and unfortunately put belts on for doing it.

I was there for several years but ultimately left like most of the mature educated with jobs.

Hi Doc,
That is very interesting the way you are referring to the BKF. (the hood).

Similar to other forms of bantering, only certain races are privy to (for good reasons in my opinion). I just finished a book By Randall Kennedy. I think all persons should make a very good effort to read it, puts things into a proper perspective.

I believe you are very correct in your thoughts on this subject.
But I feel that you have a limited amout of persons who without the other teaching will only be stumpted and need to get more education (elem. Jr. then High sch. then go to college) that is the norm and with the teaching you suggest, is just over the heads of the the average Karateka.

Rhetoric does not nessecarily go along with a higher learning in Karate or any other form of MA. I believe a level of talk should not exceed the 10th grade.

Any thoughts on that? Regards, Gary

Yeah, but that was before he decided he knew everything.

HEEHEEEHEEE


DarK LorD

Hi Doc,
That is very interesting the way you are referring to the BKF. (the hood).

Similar to other forms of bantering, only certain races are privy to (for good reasons in my opinion). I just finished a book By Randall Kennedy. I think all persons should make a very good effort to read it, puts things into a proper perspective.

I believe you are very correct in your thoughts on this subject.
But I feel that you have a limited amout of persons who without the other teaching will only be stumpted and need to get more education (elem. Jr. then High sch. then go to college) that is the norm and with the teaching you suggest, is just over the heads of the the average Karateka.

Rhetoric does not nessecarily go along with a higher learning in Karate or any other form of MA. I believe a level of talk should not exceed the 10th grade.

Any thoughts on that? Regards, Gary
I can not speak for Doc, but I can relate something he imparted to me that may address what I think you're referring to. "Not everyone can be elite...or even good."

That was Doc's saying, so I cannot take credit for it, even though I like it.

As for the 10th grade communication thing...I could not agree with you more than I do now, which is not at all.

Some martial arts are more complex than others, and will necessarily require a broader understanding of "the nature of things" in order to grasp their implications in specific contexts, as well as applying them in broader contexts. There are simple martial arts (stand, block, punch, kick...in the other guys general direction, and you should be OK) which may be the best alternatives for persons with lesser educations. There are more complex martial arts which require more mental horsepower going in, and which -- by their very nature -- require concordant study of complementary academic disciplines during the course of study.

Kenpo has components of -- and opportunities for -- either extreme, making it a viable home for martial arts afficianadoes of any educational level. However, exploration of advanced kenpo concepts will, at some level, require a higher level of education in a broader range of topics than what is initially offered in the public school systems up to the 10th grade. Anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, psychology and, to some extent, Chinese meridian theory are almost certain prerequisites to exploring -- and truly "getting" -- the advanced level material.

Does that mean you need college-level courses in these topics to pull it off? Hell no. There are absolutely awesome practitioners and teachers out there who dug up the information on their own, reading it in encyclopedias, books, the web, picking the brains of people who did know, etc. If you set your mind and will to the task, there is always a way. However, the groundwork definitely needs to be there for the tower to be erected.

Kindly put, everybody is just where they are. My advice: follow what you can, based on where you're at. When you're ready for the next level, consult with a qualified instructor (i.e., one capable of taking you to the next level) about what you need to understand to train there, and git yer nose in the books to rise to the occasion.

Regards,

Dave