I'm aware that many American Kenpoists are not satisfied with the grappling/anti-grappling work in most Kenpo curriculi. Speaking personally I do like the direction being taken in the association I belong to in regards to 'anti-grappling'. It's a very good start, and no doubt much more is on the way.
Here's my question: For those of you that try to incorporate some grappling into your Kenpo curriculum, what Kenpo principles do you find the most vital.... OR... how do the more central Kenpo principals 'translate' when doing groundwork?
Just wondering what your thoughts are....
your brother
John

I'm probably going to open the biggest can of worms here but I'll state my personal opinion. I'm not quite sure if you can put an exact principle down in stone when working on the ground fighting situations. Most often you do what your body is capable of doing with the amount of knowledge you have for the situation. What I mean is "if" you end up on your back; have you practiced leg sweep to their knees, trap-bridge-& roll technqiues, do you know about acceptable hand positioning on your opponent, escapes from the bottom, leg passes, other various scissor sweeps??? These are just things that come to mind at the moment. The only way to gain serious frame work for the ground is to work out with a JJ school or something of that nature. Being in the top position as well doesn't necessarily mean pound the snot out of someone either. There's a lot to getting someone down on the bottom and being able to keep them there. Anyway any constructive criticism is accepted as always.

Well looking through II4... posture, balance, relaxation, speed, accuracy, angles... all seem to work prety well.

Relaxation is the biggest thing I would say that seems to disapear in translation. Someone who is so relaxed he looks like a "drunken boxer" turns into Mr. Tense with no breathing when he gets on the ground.

Posture is more subtle, think of it more genearlly as haveing the skeletal structure NOT the muscular stucuture supporting your body. Don't be wasting all your strenth trying to hold yourself up the varries positions, lay on the guy, its much less comphy from his point of review, trust me.

Balance, you need to be able to form a stable base or the guy is going to send you flying. Conversly if your on the bottom you need to see where his weekest base of suport is and apply your force in that direction.

Speed... well ya you snooze you loose here.

Is that what you were looking for?

I also believe that Kenpo needs to evolve further in this area.

In regards to anti-grappling I'd have to refer to the Chinese Fan Principle (ie. move the target first) and bracing angles.

Kenpo syllabus techniques do not include anything like sprawling because a preference is made for an upright spine. However, a grappler who targets the control of the hips (for a double-leg take down/slam etc) can also use a single leg takedown as a back-up plan. This is why I believe a technique like Charging Ram "may not always be effective" because the angle change still leaves the attacker close to the lead leg.

In regards to actual ground fighting, principles such as anchoring the elbow (so that your arm doesn't get ripped off) and rotational torque (mainly using the hips to change position) are important considerations.

At some stage in my BJJ training (I primarily train in Kenpo), I started to write down the common principles. I don't have the list nearby, but I remember a few of them to be:

* establish position first, submission after
* keep all 4 limbs in play
* stay relaxed with controlled breathing
* gang up on the opponent's limbs
* create a ball shape when on the bottom

Hope this helps.

- Handsword

Originally posted by Handsword
* establish position first, submission after

Other people have a name for this that I can't recall but I refer to it as the cycle of consideations..

Attitude -> Environment -> Dimensional Stages of Action ("Range") -> Position -> Manuver -> Target -> Weapon -> Angle -> Cover

I find this applies to goundfighting and stand up stuf equally.

Well I was at a JJ black belt testing earlier today. One of the questions was about something their class called P.I.T.S.

P osition
I
T echnique
S ubmission
Unfortunately I can't remember the other 1 at the moment but I will find out. This is what their techniques are based upon. I'll post back later when I find out the other one.

I am far from an expert in GF or Kenpo

Quite honestly I think you can translate a FEW of the principles and theories from kenpo to groundfighting. Unfortunately they are two very distinct creatures. This means that most of the GF strategy and physical action would be completely different from that of a Standing fight.

Take for instance your stance or position. If you are standing, and out of range from your opponent, you don't necessarily have to worry about how to manuever. You are free to move around as you wish until that particular threshold is violated. However, if you find yourself on the ground, even if your opponent is out of range, something as simple as standing back up should be approached with a fair amount of strategy (alot of guys get popped because they don't know how to stand back up and their opponent closes the gap quickly.) What is it that all you Brits out there say,"Mind the Gap." Sure they're talking about subway platforms but the saying translates well to this areal

There are a few likes and alot of differences, but it's good to know that there are others who are giving this subject some thought.

By the way, I've got nothing against Brits.... except for Les. :D
Just kidding Les, hope to see you at the CAMP in a couple of months

Just my two cents...but old style Kenpo Karate had ground fighting and defense as a part of the system. It seems like over the years American Kenpo folks are trying to regain what they lost. Some of us older guys remember our training in the 60's.


Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate

http://www.mnkenpo.com

:)

Ground defense and Purple Matt work, hardly is enough to even start with, in terms of grappling. There is much more to it then just learning how to fall do a couple of kicks....

:asian:

Back then...break falls and dealing with leg grabs (shoots) were common in beginner classes. It was more like ju jitsu basics and plenty joint locks etc. Believe me it was a defferent blend.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com
:)

Did you guys work on Takedowns, Throws, Sweeps, Mount position, Guard position, Locks in the guard, locks in the mount, sweeps from the guard, takedowns from on the knees, Chokes from the guard/mount positions, standing Locks, Countering throws, hand positioning from the guard/mount position? I'm just kind of curious at how far indepth it went because I don't think that I've touched even a tip of this material.

The emphasis was not to stay on the ground and grapple but get away or maim to free yourself up to stand and defend. In short, strike and stay on guard against the guys friends.

We oriented ourselves to the ground but firmly believed the ground was the target to throw our opponents bodies to...


Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate :D

Hollywoods Definitions:
Groundwork (aka matwork): You on your feet, your opponent on the ground.

I like your definition Hollywood! Fits my attitude 100%

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

Thanks for the explanation. I was somewhat thinking that was your idea Mr.Simmons but I wanted to know for sure.
Happy kenpoing.

I have pulled off a variation of "Parting Wings" while using the guard and inserting a right vertical elbow after the left hand throat chop. The targets varied somewhat as well. I simply torqued my upper body while maintaining my guard position for the stance shift changes that would have occured.

Cool. Alter, re-arrange, and adjust the kenpo still flows within you my friend. :D

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
the kenpo still flows within you my friend.

Jason, why must you insult me so?

I suppose it's like being an alcoholic. It's only a measure of time since you last drank.
Ha ha ha!

The emphasis was not to stay on the ground and grapple but get away or maim to free yourself up to stand and defend. In short, strike and stay on guard against the guys friends.


This is an excellent definition of groundfighting. To stay on the ground with an opponent would simply be wrestling or "rolling" and wouldn't be very beneficial in a hostile environment

I've had the opportunity to work on this particular range of fighting. The workouts have been extremely informative. Some of the things we've been doing are the guard passes, mount defenses and offenses, manueverability. All these things culminate in our final objective, which is to use ballistic striking to end the situation.

Originally posted by GouRonin
...I suppose it's like being an alcoholic. It's only a measure of time since you last drank.
Ha ha ha!


It has been a while. I keep looking at that bottle of Grey Goose I have wanting a glass or 2 but somehow I never get to it
:( .

Let's hear from some newer members if they implement their Kenpo into grappling or other ground scenarios.

Historically, striking arts assume that the practitioner already knows how to grapple. This is true in the Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan roots of most ken/mpo styles. Okinawan martial arts were usually practiced by people familiar with tegumi (Okinawan grappling, which is mistaken for a style of sumo these days, even though it uses totally different rules). See http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html . It was a part of the tradition that got to Hawaii and no doubt informed early kenpo. This was probably something that is problematic now, because many of us now study kenpo as our first fighting system, wheras early kenpo was supplemental to grappling and basic fighting ability learned in childhood. So I suspect that grappling is only a problem for folks now because earlier generations thought it was such common knowledge that they didn't bother to actually encode any of it. This was probably accentuated by the strong presence of Okazaki jujutsu and judo; every early martial artist was expected to have a working knowledge of grappling systems, so the only stuff worth encoding in a system (like Chow kempo or Kajukenbo) supplemented the asumed grappling base. It did not cover it because that would have been redundant.

The upshot of this is that you aren't going "outside" of your style when you study grappling. Instead, you're acquiring the common knowledge you were expected to have in the first place.

I'm definitely not a Kenpo expert either, but basic philosophy is to end it before it gets to the ground. If someone is willing to duck his head and take his eyes off of you to tackle you, well, thanks for taking your eye off the ball. A quick upward chop to the throat while you do a hammer fist to the back of his neck will work nicely, as an example. Or stepping back into a low horse stance and doing an elbow smash to the temple.

As for grappling, it seems to be only good for one opponent. What's a grappler going to do when a second attacker is kicking the living @*$% out of him while he's got attacker #1 in a submission hold? One well connected kick to the head, ribs, groin and it's all she wrote.

Once on the ground, it's gouge, kick, bite time. Ground techniques do appear to be a kenpo weakness, though.

Speed and a stable base are your friends. :)

Don't forget, not all grapplers are lame on the stand up gig; so, if you so much as falter they can take you down while you struggle to right yourself. If you are up against a skilled fighter, you're up against a skilled fighter; so a little preparedness goes a long way.
Sean

Don't forget, not all grapplers are lame on the stand up gig; so, if you so much as falter they can take you down while you struggle to right yourself. If you are up against a skilled fighter, you're up against a skilled fighter; so a little preparedness goes a long way.
Sean

Good point.

the system of kempo i studied has plenty of groundfighting and jujutsu "techniques".
Someone who is skilled at shooting can usually pick a moment to take you down and you wont realise it until the back of your head is hitting the ground.
As for multiple opponents......any type of fighting on the ground makes no sense.....but then one would also be making the assumption that lying on the ground is the focus of Jujutsu.

Let's hear from some newer members if they implement their Kenpo into grappling or other ground scenarios.

I am studying in a Jeff Speakman school in Eureka and he is working with some of his Black Belts to form a curriculum to address the issues of grappling. We are looking at new techs called collapsing wedge, opposing circles, thrusting knee, etc... We are addressing the issues of an opponent in the process of shooting in verses the opponent has already shot in and has you held tight and getting ready to drop you. Mr. Speakman is also creating some techs that are more offensive verses defensive. Last night we were working some of these techs in our school and had great fun with it. Anyway, I feel it is important to address the mixed MA since it seems to be the craze. Street fighting has certainly changed over the years and needs to be addressed if we are to continually be able to defend ourselves.

I'm done rambling.

I am studying in a Jeff Speakman school in Eureka and he is working with some of his Black Belts to form a curriculum to address the issues of grappling. We are looking at new techs called collapsing wedge, opposing circles, thrusting knee, etc... We are addressing the issues of an opponent in the process of shooting in verses the opponent has already shot in and has you held tight and getting ready to drop you. Mr. Speakman is also creating some techs that are more offensive verses defensive. Last night we were working some of these techs in our school and had great fun with it. Anyway, I feel it is important to address the mixed MA since it seems to be the craze. Street fighting has certainly changed over the years and needs to be addressed if we are to continually be able to defend ourselves.

I'm done rambling.

Sounds like some interesting stuff! I'm interested in hearing how the techs. that you've been working on differ from the ones that are already in the EPAK system that address an attempted low grab, etc.

Mike

As a student of the UKF you have to consider and understand the Eight Stages of Engagement

Quote UKF website
" 5. Physical Body Control Manipulation
The contoured physical state of controlling your opponents actions by canceling all his dimensions. Common terms of wrestling and grappling are applicable. Locks and hugs. A constant physical attachment with your opponent, maneuvering to tactical advantage and to physically dominate. Energies are united and harmony with the universe has been established. Spirit domination is conjoined to one's control. The wind pushes the sail on course, charts are plotted and manifest. All control of your opponent has been dominated. And as the wind passes, the aftermath and the void of wind has energy as the sail bellows in anticipation.
6. Control Manipulation Maintenance

Physically controlled state of opponent domination as survey is made of the environment. The process of attachment and tactical arrangement of your four ring domination. Assessment of the conscious level of your enemy. Decision to inaugurate a new attack is determined. From survey of the physical plane, and survey of the enemy's state of life and the ability to retaliate an offensive attack. The course is set, the sail full and in control.
7. Control Manipulation Release

The physical release of your opponent in a tactical advantage for you, and canceling his ability to gain advantage on you. Capture your energy for complete control. Disengaging harmony from your opponent, remove the wind. Mission complete. Resolved. If no contact made, victory. If death is created, molecular change begins. Fill your sail and inhale as you exhale the bad wind, life.

8. Extraction

The physical maneuvers that places you in an expanded tactical area of response, and the maximum distance from danger without compromise, gaining physical visual control of your environment. Personal search of your body for injury. Attachment with your way, gathering back the loose lines, focus in on the journey as seen and lived. Expanding back in, conjoining destiny and circumstance, nothing personal is lost, acceptance of unfolding events and digestion of the resultant."

We have to remember that when we talk about Kenpo in the sense of grappling; I think most of think the techniques will not work because we are playing within the rules of grappling in which locks chokes are all applied. Now if we switch it around, and say “when we talk about grappling in the sense of Kenpo”. We start looking ate grappling inside of Kenpo the first technique in Yellow belt "delayed sword" in which 90% of you l would call the left hand a precautionary check you can use that hand to GRAB the right wrist of your opponent and then when you cover out you can use your right arm to do a top to bottom arm break at the elbow.

I like to work out with all kinds of grapplers but I have found very few that are willing to strike. One important fact short of guys like the ones in the UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English

/FONT][/COLOR]UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English
[/QUOTE]

having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/

/FONT][/color]UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English


having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/[/quote]

My apologies thank for the education.

He shot in on me I was in a right forward stance stepped back into a left front stance.

He locked up my right ankle with his left hand and then applied pressure to my right knee with his right forearm to take me down.

I don't know what that is called but it did put allot of pressure on my knee.

However I do like that website I will be studying it more.

Thanks again

Rick

I don’t know a lot about rolling but I want to learn to accent what I already know I don’t want to learn by saying forget everything you know this is right.

V/R

Rick

If he had applied the ankle lock all the way immediately rather than waiting, you'd be hobbling. Ankle and knee locks can leave you exposed to a counter...that's why, in practice, you apply them right away.

Don't get me wrong it hurt like a mother.

but when i knew what was coming it was pretty easy to defend against.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I want a guy that wants to strike that has a good background in grappling.

V/R

Rick

well, that's what i'd call a take down, and we do that particular one in kenpo as well-- a lock is the aftermath and once applied, well good luck and good night. entry is the weak point of any attack which is american kenpo's strength-- all defense techs are designed to stop entry. i would think that it is even easier to defend when the attack is pre announced --unless of course you're up against billy jack :) ...

having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/

My apologies thank for the education.

He shot in on me I was in a right forward stance stepped back into a left front stance.

He locked up my right ankle with his left hand and then applied pressure to my right knee with his right forearm to take me down.

I don't know what that is called but it did put allot of pressure on my knee.

However I do like that website I will be studying it more.

Thanks again

Rick

I don’t know a lot about rolling but I want to learn to accent what I already know I don’t want to learn by saying forget everything you know this is right.

V/R

Rick
[/quote]
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If you look closely at Dance of Death you'll see this lock, or a version of it. There's also an available heel hook when you flip them for the extension. I thought it was obvious to everyone but I guess not LOL.

DarK LorD

Sounds like some interesting stuff! I'm interested in hearing how the techs. that you've been working on differ from the ones that are already in the EPAK system that address an attempted low grab, etc.

Mike

Ah, now I'm at a disadvantage. I'm not sure what is already being incorporated. However, what we are studying is when the opponent shoots in and tries to suck in your hips in a typical takedown. Thrusting knee starts with the defender in a left neutral bow. As the attacker shoots in the defender wedges the head against his chest elimating the opponents height. Immediately thrust the rear knee, right knee, in the attackers face with a form of guided collision landing in a left fighting stance. Upper cut with the left fist still maintaining control of the attacker with the right hand on the attackers neck. Then execute a shin kick to the attackers right inner thigh and cross out. Hopefully this describes it well enough.

More to come.

Ah, now I'm at a disadvantage. I'm not sure what is already being incorporated. However, what we are studying is when the opponent shoots in and tries to suck in your hips in a typical takedown. Thrusting knee starts with the defender in a left neutral bow. As the attacker shoots in the defender wedges the head against his chest elimating the opponents height. Immediately thrust the rear knee, right knee, in the attackers face with a form of guided collision landing in a left fighting stance. Upper cut with the left fist still maintaining control of the attacker with the right hand on the attackers neck. Then execute a shin kick to the attackers right inner thigh and cross out. Hopefully this describes it well enough.

More to come.

Cool!! Thanks for the reply and I'll be looking to hear more from you!:ultracool

Another question for you. Are the techniques that are already in the system still being used, or have the new ones replaced them? If so, have they been modified in any way?

Mike

Body alignment or "pung" seems to work well... for instance if you're pinned down, moving the pelvic oval into different alignments can help out