I am a new student to all martial arts. I am working towards my yellow belt in American Kenpo.

Kenpo Power principles.

My instructor put this question to the class for the basics. I would like to get additional insight as well.

How are you generating power in Delayed Sword?

Principles to think about:

A. Anchoring:
B. Back-up-mass:
C. Body Rotation:
Borrowed Force:


Salute:

JD_Nelson aka Pratt

I answered my instructor with this reply....


1. Delayed Sword is vs. a right-handed push/punch/grab to your upper torso.
Experiment with each of these variables: what would happen if his grab made
contact? How would it alter what you do? How would your actions (step/block
- kick - chop) affect his body position differently?

The execution of Delayed Sword would remain the same. That I think is the underlying principle. Step back & block, thrusting kick then outward hand sword to the neck.

The step back performs @ least two purposes.

1. It creates distance between the attacker and yourself. This allows room for the execution of the block, kick, & hand sword.

2. The step also allows one to establish a good solid base. We all should know a good foundation begins with the base!! With the step, one should also establish his/her own heighth zone. With the proper stance, you get a good anchoring of the buttocks. (This is something that has been refreshed in my mind due to this letter.)

If the attacker completes his grab, I have a tendency to make the step back and block much more solid or focused on mentally. I do not want to be tied up or end up in a wrestling match. In a punch, the block is solid, but I view it as more of a redirection and look towards the rest of the technique. I realize a strike is a block. Maybe I am wrong here. This may be the reason I do not have the same commitment/focus on the block when it is a punch. In the case of the grab, the block would have more of a mental focus from me with intentions to break the hold. I also see that the step back with the proper anchoring would cause the attacker to be pulled off balance. This disturbance would most likely cause them to hesitate and give me additional time to execute the kick. The disturbance is similar to the same frustrations I get from Mr. Haag in Deflecting Hammer.

I am wondering when pulling the attacker off balance when stepping into the neutral bow if this would be back up mass. Although I generally think of back up mass being the force behind the punch, is this the same force that allows you to pull the attacker off balance? I can see where it could be viewed as borrowed force, but if the attacker has grip on my lapel and is not moving forward already, then the shift in one's own body weight a use of back up mass.

2. Consider: How are you generating power in Delayed Sword? Here are some
Kenpo Principles that are involved in Delayed Sword....you find out how they
are applied as well as how to get the most out of them.

Power in Delayed Sword is abundant. The move to a right neutral bow is a key due to establishing a solid base. With the initial move to a neutral bow, I believe we are using torque to our advantage. The counter-clockwise rotation of the hips with the right inward block causes the shoulders to move and be aligned with the hips. In theory we are rotating 45 degrees. This is 1/3 of our master key number of 135.

When you execute a right inward block by itself the hand is rotating from the upside down telephone grab to a hammering fist below the attackers elbow. I am not too confident on this point but i believe the rotation would help create additional forces. The right inward block is also involving three dimensions in the delivery. It is using the vertical plane, horizontal plane (left to right) and the depth plane (front to back). If properly executed, one will use a 45 degree angle in all of these planes to strike the attackers arm below the elbow. The combination of the three planes generates a tremendous amount of power, with a minimal amount of effort.

The next place I see a tremendous amount of power being generated is in the outward handsword. The combination of three planes again will come into play in the same way they did with the inward block. An additional source of power comes from the marriage of gravity. You can lower you center of gravity while executing the outward hand sword to add to the power. I believe this principle is marriage of gravity.


So here is my opener. :asian:

JD_Nelson

That's a lot to say dude!

Things you might want to try just to play around with. When doing the inward strike with the right from the grab or punch etc, try going from point of origin rather than the telephone position. I know they teach it that way when you start so I'm not knocking it. Just something fun to play with.

Are you having fun at least?

In other systems (Joe Lewis FS in particular, I believe) they lump torque and body mass into one category; torque is a technique allowing you to utilize body mass to full advantage, just as dropping with a downward elbow strike allows you to use gravity to full advantage.

That would leave body mass, body strength and [marriage of] gravity as possible sources for power in a strike. Am I missing any? Oh yeah, there is chi power. That's in volume 6, but only special students got a copy of the unfinished manuscript. :D

I think what I said about combining torque and body mass applies to counter-punching and not necessarily to other techniques. Blocking would be an example.

Too late... can't think... must sleep. :hammer:

What school are you attending in PA?

I studied at American Karate Studios in Ardmore, PA from the late 80's til 1994 and then stopped. I took up practice again in August of this year at the MAX family training center in Ardmore which is co-owned by one of my friends from the old school.

Ardmore is a fair commute from where I live now (center city philadelphia) and various injuries keep me from practising my kenpo the way I like which is mainly hittin' pads and bags. So I am checking out Philly aikido and bjj schools.

An interesting piece of history... most philly-area kenpo schools were originally Tracy Kenpo schools with a Joe Lewis lineage that left the Tracy fold in the early 70's and joined the IKKA in the mid 80s. Some switched to the IKKA curriculum and some didn't. It seemed Mr. Parker didn't care what exactly was taught. My school switched from Tracy to IKKA curriculum when I was an orange belt.

Lotta history in that area with Kenpo.

I try and hit Mike Cappi's camps near there yearly.

Gou,

I have worked on delivering the block from the trigger point position. It has opened some new doors for me and more questions.

In a past post you mentioned something about deleting the block.
Isn't the strike a block anyway? Isn't the only difference the intent between the two?

Just thinking,

Jeremy Nelson

Yes a block is a strike etc but I think the point I was saying that after a block there is a stop in motion even temperarily. I am not sure but this appears to be one of the reasons that Bruce Lee chose to not utilize blocks extensively. IFAJKD could elaborate more though.

P.S. - I am not a bruce lee fan. Let the flames begin!
:D

Hey Gou,
Just kidding about the flame thing. I've found that the techs can be practiced to delete the gap between the block and the next move. In Delayed Sword, for instance, start using the planting of the rear foot with the inward block as a trigger for the front foot's movement. As your back heel hits, your front heel lifts, loading the weapon for immediate use. Just keep your weight forward for maximum power. Also, alter the front kick to a modified roundhouse to the inside of the thigh, planting straight down for the handsword. It just rips off.
Mace

I think one major reason Lee eschewed blocks was due to his Wing Chun background. Wing Chun relies on feeling and going with an attacker's energy. Basic 'karate' blocks, in the most basic sense, go against the attacker's energy. It interrupts the flow.

Lee was also of the opinion that 'classical' systems taught block-then-counter, rather than the simultaneous parry/counters he advocated.

Basically, he thought blocks were wasted motion, and therefore against the 'economy of motion' principle.

As always, regarding JKD matters, I defer to IFAJKD's response to this.

Cthulhu

Economy of motion is not something that is violated by blocking as opposed to parrying. Quite the opposite, blocking can be just as fast, if not faster, as parrying and counterstriking. The key is using point of reference for the movements. If we take the inward block and use it against a right punch as in delayed sword, the point of reference for the block is the hip. Instead of using the classical chamber at head height for the block, fire the block from the hip using a thrusting execution, hitting on the upside of the cirlce, creating your next point of reference. From here the move can be compounded into a handsword to the neck. Two moves, one motion.
Economy of motion applies to all motion and offers a way to scrutinize what you are doing and fine tune your movements. Blocks themselves do not violate the rule, people do. Doing an inward block and then pulling it back to generate power for a handsword violates the principle. Hitting on the upside of the circle does not, neither would hitting on the downside and rebounding, but that would be dependant on hand positioning at the time of attack. That's another topic itself. :)
Anyway, that's just my thoughts
Mace

Mace,

I agree! I was just pointing out a possible reason why Lee disliked blocks. Those were his views, not my own.

Everything in martial arts ultimately depends on the individual, not the system or style.

Cthulhu

Actually, the way I see it, there are THREE major principles at work in delayed sword- TORQUE when you block and MARRIAGE OF GRAVITY and OPPOSING FORCES on your handsword.

Vince

What about he back up mass. Your body is behind your knifehand and therefore you have the back-up mas to do a little extra damage. As for the opposing forces I don't see it.

Back up mass.

Hey Rob,
If you return to a neutral bow with the outward handsword after the front kick in Delayed Sword you are using opposing forces. Your hand and body are traveling in what seems to be opposite directions. So you kick, plant into a modified forward bow, and then snap to your neutral with the chop. Hope this helps.
Mace

If you are shifting back to a neutral bow after the kick as you deliver the handsword, you are then weakening the power of the handsword. You will also be putting yourself in an awkward position, which can cause you to lose your balance.

Here's the breakdown of Delayed Sword, in my simplistic version:

TORQUE is applied via the thrusting inward block
OPPOSING FORCES, MARRIAGE OF GRAVITY (and yes- BACKUP MASS) is applied opponent bends forward after the groin kick and the handsword meets them on the way. The opposing forces are the combination of their forward motion meeting your outward handsword, colliding together. The marriage of gravity is applied when you lower your center of gravity upon execution of the handsword, solidifying the strike- which ipso/facto also brings into application the concept of backup mass. As to which principle (between opposing forces and backup mass) is dominant depends entirely on the intensity of the forward motion of bending over by the opponent after the groin kick, and the speed at which the handsword is delivered. Ideally, I would like to fire it fast enought to meet the right carotid artery in a forward motion strike. Typically, it is taught at the beginning level as a pure marriage of gravity strike the rear/ side of the neck. I like to crank it up a notch when I can!:asian:

If I am correct, and I couold easily be wrong, it is not opposing forces, but borrowed force you are talking about Vince. The kick to the groin propels the attacker forward into your knifehand.

Yes Rob, I agree!!! The difference between borrowed force and opposing force is often a very fine line. I usually consider borrowed force (in my own application) to CARRY the motion or continue the motion my opponent started to my advantage. When I MEET his motion (like two cars colliding) I consider it opposing forces.

There's alot of grey area in defining the physical principles of any given technique- look at the dialog we just spent on the very first technique of the system!

Thanks Rob- I really do love the "nuts and bolts" aspects of applications, and I appreciate the fact you take the time to debate these finer points. Not only are WE richer for the exchange, but novice practitioners reading the post are greatly enriched. I wish I had such a resource when I was younger!

Maybe I can help shed a little light...

Bruce did advocate a type of block...however nothing that could be considered a traditional hard style block.

JKD is all about economy of motion (like kenpo). One thing that is taught by Dan Inosanto is that systems can also be slow or fast, not just people. (ie. A block and then a punch is much slower than a block with a simultaneous punch.) Therefore a slower person can beat a faster person if the slower person is moving with greater efficiency than the faster person. The stop hit can be an example of this.

Anyway, wing chun very specifically deals with how to beat a faster, bigger, stonger, younger opponent. Partly through sensitivity and another way through economy of motion. This was Bruce's background when he started to develop JKD. He then added many principals he found in other systems to compliment what he was doing.

I think I lost sight of what I was trying to answer with this, but that is easy to do when discussing JKD concepts when you're tired!:D

John

I have been told by many that the 3 principles of power are Torque, Back Up Mass, and Gravitational Marriage. I know of Opposing Forces, Borrowed force, but I do no believe these to be part of the 3 principles of power.

Hi Rob,
I've been exploring the power principles for a little while now and they get more and more confusing. :rolleyes: There seems to be a lot of overlapping and gray areas. First off, isn't gravitational marriage actually just back up mass on a vertical as opposed to horizontal plane? And then, isn't borrowed force just the use of someone elses backup mass? They seem to be subcatagories of the 3 original principles. If that's the case, wouldn't opposing forces be torque in disguise?
In the case of delayed sword, opposing forces can be used with the last handsword. Ideally it would be used after planting the front kick to the nerves on the inside of the thigh, planting, and snapping to your neutral. Its sort of the same motion as the hammer in sword and hammer or the last handsword in the extention for 5 swords. It is very strong and very powerful, but you must make sure that your right hip is in proper alignment with your weapon.
This brings up another point. Structural alignment isn't mentioned as a power principle, but if you do not have the proper body mechanics and alignments in your blocks or strikes, you lose power. So is this a compliment to the power principles or an integral part of them? Or is it just a given?
Just some of the things I've been playing with. :)
Mace

We are all subject to gravity. So if the attacker is falling bending over gravity is also being exerted on him/her.

If we settle or drop into the stance as we execute a downard strike we are adding additional velocity to the downward blow, thus increasing the effect.


In short gravity acts like a multiplier to the strike



JMO

Jeremy

iam suprised none of you mentioned path of action while striking to generate force instead of point of action?
later
jay

Can you explain the path of action.

I am not sure what you mean.


Thank You,

Jeremy

I believe path of action is the same as path of execution. The path of execution is the route that an offensive move follows when traveling to its target.

path of action is when you strike in let's say the handsword in delayed sword most begginers strike with point of action right? meaning they only hit with the handsword to the neck. well path of action you would use the same path as the handsword but you would hit with the original strike as well as the forearm down to the elbow creating more surface to strike with. path of execution like rob said is the path in which the technique is executed.hope that helped!:p :p

Originally posted by shine
In other systems (Joe Lewis FS in particular, I believe) they lump torque and body mass into one category; torque is a technique allowing you to utilize body mass to full advantage, just as dropping with a downward elbow strike allows you to use gravity to full advantage.

That would leave body mass, body strength and [marriage of] gravity as possible sources for power in a strike. Am I missing any? Oh yeah, there is chi power. That's in volume 6, but only special students got a copy of the unfinished manuscript. :D


Wow?????

Book 6 uh???

Did you know that book 6 was the Encyclopedia, which was published after Mr. Parkers unfortunate death.

I find this story rather amusing of a book 6, do you know when book 5 was completed (not published)?

The answer is about 10 years before it was published. Most of the information in the books was already refined before they even hit the market. Some modifications were made just before publishing, but those mainly reffered to the techniques them selves, and the pictures in the book. For example in book 5, the web of knowledge contains the Knuckaku set, which I challenge anyone to find an instructor that can teach that to them. I know that Mr. Parker taught it in the early 70's, but I don't remember anyone that was captivated by it sticking around very long.

I would be interested in hearing about who told you this story of book 6, sounds interesting.

As for Chi, I am currently writing a book on the subject, and am talking with two different publishers. If you would like to get into that aspect of the power generation I would more than welcome the subject matter.

Also the main source for power is in your stance, second would be your body positioning, third would be gravitaional marriage, fourth would be rotational torque, fifth would be back up mass, sixth would be borrowed force, and the seventh is your physical strength.

I would be interested in hearing about who told you this story of book 6, sounds interesting.
Oh I just made that up :idea: . The idea of a lost book/scroll containing secret knowledge is very appealing martial arts lore.

As for Chi, I am currently writing a book on the subject, and am talking with two different publishers.

Keep us posted!