O.k. we've seen it repeated constantly in the shows and events gaining many tap outs so... Any video of counters to the Triangle choke and rear naked choke floating around?

For th triangle, try looking up to the sky--directly over head--and straighten up as you do so.

Sounds too easy for the fighters not to have figured that out. I'm talking escapes when the holds are sinched in tight.

I can't tell how many fights I've seen where the recipient just lasy there waiting to tap. They're clueless. They just focus on application, and ignore escape. That theory doesn't make sense if that's your career, you're serious about it, and you Know you'll face them-many times.

yup, lots ;)

Oh, you wanted specifics? :D

How are you getting caught?

For a triangle from guard the first thing is to posture up as soon as you feel there legs go up, if they can't pull your head down they can't lock it.

Failing that turn into it, keeping your shoulder off thier neck, if their hips are on the wrong side, no choke and you can break it.

Or stack them up hard, driver their knees to the ground, most people will loose the choke if you can get it tight enough.

Pull their knee to the ground and turn in.

Knee in the belly and force yourself out.

Grab their head and pull it in, sprawl driving your hips to the ground and head up.

Step over them with your leg and hook.


and step 2, youtube provides a couple:

HkDeNT0dCtk

-7ZesgnYsos

Good stuff! That's what I was talking about. The second version..a can opener? Tough to see.

None around for the rear naked choke? How about the Guillotine?

Sounds too easy for the fighters not to have figured that out. I'm talking escapes when the holds are sinched in tight.

I can't tell how many fights I've seen where the recipient just lasy there waiting to tap. They're clueless. They just focus on application, and ignore escape. That theory doesn't make sense if that's your career, you're serious about it, and you Know you'll face them-many times.
Properly applied -- there's not much you can do once a rear-naked choke is on. That's why the struggle is to keep it from being locked in...

Sounds too easy for the fighters not to have figured that out. I'm talking escapes when the holds are sinched in tight.

I can't tell how many fights I've seen where the recipient just lasy there waiting to tap. They're clueless. They just focus on application, and ignore escape. That theory doesn't make sense if that's your career, you're serious about it, and you Know you'll face them-many times.

In some cases a lock has a point of no return. Where the escape is to break something. :(

But if you can get the person to react and move i.e. loosen up the lock then you can get a counter.

Sounds too easy for the fighters not to have figured that out. I'm talking escapes when the holds are sinched in tight.

I can't tell how many fights I've seen where the recipient just lasy there waiting to tap. They're clueless. They just focus on application, and ignore escape. That theory doesn't make sense if that's your career, you're serious about it, and you Know you'll face them-many times.


To many of them really are absolutely clueless and they have limited skills. They just have not spent the time and training (talking years) to understand many of the counters. Yet those special ones that are competing and know the counters are very hard to submit.

There is also the effect of having taken a few shots during a competition that sometimes rattles a guy and he is unable to put a counter into play. Still many of these guy's are just clueless.

Once any submission is really cinched in there is not much you can do apart from tap (or let something break or go to sleep) Escapes have to come before its locked tight.

None around for the rear naked choke? How about the Guillotine?

Not that I've had a whole lot of success with it yet (although thats more down to my lack of skill than the techniqe, I assume), but the escape I've been shown is to first turn your head towards the elbow that’s choking you, then defend your neck. Most important is that you prevent the other arm getting behind your head (as otherwise the choke is locked in) - ideally, you overhook it and trap the arm against your side. Bridge up and drop your shoulders into your opponents chest, which should hopefully loosen up their hooks enough that you can remove a leg on the same side as the choking elbow, move round then turn over into side control. Rather easier said than done. ;)

None around for the rear naked choke?

I agree with the others. Prior to though, you could try tucking your chin and shrugging your shoulders. You want to try something to secure an airway.


How about the Guillotine?

Placing an arm over their shoulder should take some of the pressure off.

Mike

Rear Naked choke - Don't let those arms lock up or its lights out.

If you can get one of his arms to the other side of your head that is good. If you can unhook a leg and turn over that is good. If you can wiggle your shoulders to the ground that is good.

Guillotine - Put your nose to the floor, butt in the air and pull his arm down until you got space to yank your head out.

Does all this mean so much for the "every hold has a counter argument" ?

Once a hold is on--that's it? Sleep or tap? BJJ doesn't teach counters to all of their holds?

Does all this mean so much for the "every hold has a counter argument" ?

Once a hold is on--that's it? Sleep or tap? BJJ doesn't teach counters to all of their holds?

Once things hit a certain point yes, that's it, game over.

You got to escape before its locked, or they got to apply it poorly. Once something is sunk and locked its lights out.

Like a punch, there are many ways to avoid getting KOed until it's blasting through your jaw, at that point its over and your out.

I'm not trying to be argumentative with all of you, truly. I respect the art of BJJ tremendously. So, This is for conversation and learning. Could it be that the Brazilians made sure to teach this way in order to keep the "check" so that if used against them they would have the upper hands. Kind of like the way Karate styles "hid" stuff from Americans, but, taught correctly to their own. I say this because I only hear about counters to sinched in holds from non BJJ people. More like from those that have disected the art and it's holds.

nope, its a sport based art with new counters and attacks being developed constantly. The brazillians started the movement, but its not entirely under there control anymore.

Every attack has a counter, but every counter also has a counter. Taps come at the point that not tapping means falling asleep or having something seriously injured.

SUbmission is about control and isolation, using good leveredge against poor leveredge. Once things are in tight you screwed up, you lost, checkmate.

And thats what it is, checkmate. Like in chess, everything CAN be prevented, until a certain point, and then it doesn't matter what you do, the other guy wins. The goal is to put the other person in a position that they are checkmated, and they have to stop you before it gets to that point.

O.k. How about stalemate positions? Where you could be locked in, but the recipient can move to, so that no matter how much you squeeze, they feel the pressure but don't go out or have to tap.

stalemates happen in chess too, no one wins unless the person forcing it does something else. See Shamrock vs Gracie II :D

I know, but I meant it about the holds discussed. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif Are there any to those?

of course, but generally someone does something to end the stalemate.

True, but that would come on the end of the applier and not the receiver of the holds because they aren't getting the desired result. Could some be explained? What ones have you or anyone else found good as stalemates to those holds?

Also, since this is about learning and honest conversation, other stylists reading this can give their versions of dealing with thses holds, if applied. How about some non sporting ways?

I use this escape for the rear naked. Seems to work well.....but once your training partner's seen it, you'll need to find other means.
http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=525


As far as the "non sporting" ones...

I had an altercation with a grappler at one point. He tried choking me with a rear naked variant, and I found it very easy to break his fingers. Battle tested ;)

Sounds good. Care to explain it a little bit more? How did you do it?

After I realized I was in a fight and choking (which took decidedly longer than it really should have), I felt his right hand behind my head.
He had the kind of chokehold where you scissors your arms, your "choke arm" grasps your opposite bicep, and your other arm pushes the head forward and down. I hope that's a good enough picture.
I don't remember every detail...it happened pretty quick, but it was a simple motion. I reached for the back of my own head and grabbed his pinky and ring fingers (and some of my own hair- doh!) and ripped them to the right. I held onto them even after I felt them pop and turned into him by continuing to pivot to the right.

Did that break the hold?

Well, yeah. I guess I shoulda mentioned that part,huh?
By allowing me room to turn, he no longer had the airway blocked. But I guess having your fingers broken sucks enough that you're not so worried about that. I was able to face him and get my lungs back. Looking back, I shoulda pounced right away, but I guess my goal was separation and see who was my attacker, not to mention recover. But I held onto those fingers long enough to make him go where I wanted.

In my experience the best counters are done before the hold is cinched in. At a certain point the only way you'll escape is because of a mistake on the part of the person applying the hold.

As stated before the best defense to a triangle is good posture to begin with. With proper positioning in the guard to begin with it is impossible for someone to apply the triangle. If you fail there you still have a chance as they are applying the lock to posture up looking up at the ceiling and pushing their hips down with both hands. If you can explode straight up all the way to standing (there is a black belt at my school that if I don't go to standing it's lights out every time, and I fight chokes to the last). If you fail there and they lock the choke your chance lies with keeping your trapped arm from being put across their body. Try to put your palms on their belly and pressure against their leg with your trapped arm elbow. From here you can try again to explode up to your feet. If this doesn't work you can tuck your chin and use the palm of the hand that isn't trapped to push against the back of their leg and try to pop your head out. Be aware that if you pop your head out you are now extreemly vulnerable to the oma plata.

Realize that as you go through my last paragraph the odds against you escaping are increasing. In other words your chances of escaping the hold are much better if you can do it in the beginning than if you get to the point where your trying to pop your head out.

What YBot said. Holds that are truely locked in are not counterable unless the guy applying them slips up. The point of bjj is to avoid bad positions and to counter while the move is being set up.

Someone mentioned guilotine escapes. One kind of counter I learned for guilotines is to wait until they adjust or open their gaurd for a second. When you feel them open up basically do a headstand and try to get out of their gaurd. Ideally to their side but even half gaurd increases your chances a ton. Anyways once you get to the side you can wipe their arm off and break the choke. I think it would be possible to trap the arm as you break the choke, and then go to a key lock or something along those lines.