Who's Who in Modern Arnis?

[Progressive]

Note: Let me state that I am not Politically Correct and if your feelings are easily hurt I suggest that you go on to the next “Vanilla” post and read no further…I hope that I am not banned for speaking out on this or physically threatened ; )

I would like to wade in on the matter of who’s who in Modern Arnis. I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player, but I do have over 24 years of martial arts experience and have trained with several of the Masters in the Philippines in four different styles. I have also studied JKD, American Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, etc. etc. Just so that you know I have some knowledge base to speak from: I was the Chief Combatives Instructor for USASFDK (Korean Special Forces), Martial Arts Coordinator for 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Lewis, Washington and am currently the Bakbakan International representative for Washington State and owner of Progressive Martial Arts Inc. But, enough about me, if that’s not good enough for you; you don’t want to hear what I have to say anyway. See the note above.

As I said, I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player (since I have just been studying for the past year), but I just have to wade in on the political garbage that I have read on this site. There are pretenders to the crown that would not be running their mouths if the Professor was still alive.

I have seen a question and answer session about Datu Kelly Worden. It was disingenuous to say the least! Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago. His ability to conceptualize, connect the systems, and his innovations “within” Modern Arnis led Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America. If you ask Datu Worden he will tell you that he is #2, and that Datu Shishir Inocallo (being elevated before him) is #1 in the hierarchy.

I have also seen posts that Datu Worden’s style is something other than Modern Arnis. I can assure you that Datu Worden is, to his soul, a Modern Arnis practitioner and gives all the credit to Professor Presas for his exceptional abilities. At a benefit seminar for Professor Presas last year Worden told the attendees that he believed that the system should pass to Professor’s sons and that they had his total support. I have never heard Datu Worden speak of his “niche” in Modern Arnis, just the welfare of the art as a whole and Professors legacy in the continuation of the art. Believe me if you want to hear of Datu Worden’s accomplishments you have to ask one of his students. You won’t ever hear him bragging about himself or spreading the news about his many awards or honors.

I saw two Masters of Filipino Martial Arts, Roland Dantes and Christopher Ricketts; publicly acknowledge the skill and innovation that Datu Worden brings to Modern Arnis.

Professor Presas drew from all and gave to all. That’s what is special about Modern Arnis! I have seen a wide variety of styles, variations on techniques, and even subtle differences in anyos. Modern Arnis is, as another post said, what professor said it was!

Someone made mention of a possible taping of the anyos for Modern Arnis Practioners. Datu Worden has already done this. He has 25 videotapes that are currently published along with one that was co-produced with Master Roland Dantes. He has developed and patented the Impact Kerambit and no less than six companies currently carry his knife designs.

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces. When you talk of contributions to Modern Arnis, or who is and who isn’t a Modern Arnis practitioner, I would suggest that you do a little homework before you make your announcements. His contributions to the art with the introduction of anyos for the staff, interpretation of those forms and application of the techniques were enough to cement his standing in Modern Arnis. Does that sound like Datu Worden wasn’t being Active? You be the judge…

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces.

I don't believe that this statement can possibly be correct as stated, even if "chief instructor" is interpreted as chief CQC instructor. It strikes me as a considerable exaggeration.

If Mr. Worden has been contracted to produce the document specified then surely it was bid out as per federal law. Can someone cite documentation to this effect? It will be a matter of public record of course.

We have been most fortunate to have a panoply of Kelly Worden supporters appear all of a sudden on this board. The nature of this post contradicts those who would claim that Mr. Worden's experiences with the military have not been exaggerated. I note also that no one has questioned Mr. Worden's skills--quite the opposite--yet they are constantly being defended. I would be defensive too if I had the unenviable task of justifying a statement like the one quoted above.

[Progressive]

Arnisador, I am a little slow so you might need to help me out here. I think that you are saying that I wasn't being entirely truthful in my description of Mr. Wordens title, duties, etc. with 1st Special Forces Group. This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part so I will give you a few more details. Oh, also, your information on contracting is false. Although, all contracts must be processed through central contracting they are NOT all put up for bid. As a matter of fact "Sole Source Contracts" are written all the time and are not competitive bids. This is true even for bids over 100K.

I was the contracting officer that contracted Datu Worden. The Commander, U.S. Army Special Forces Command, after inspecting our program (which, by the way was judged to be the best in SOCOM) and meeting Mr. Worden, directed the 1st SFG(A) to develop this manual and a photographer was assigned to Datu Worden who is in charge of designing the program and producing the document. This is being done as part of his official duties as Chief Combatives Instructor for 1st SFG(A). Now...if you took the statement, that Mr. Worden is the Chief Instructor, out of context and believed that I was talking about something other than Combatives, well...that’s something more than ignorance, but I am sure that isn't the case.

I am not sure what you are getting at with regards to CQC. I don't know what that stands for. I guess during my 24 years in Special Forces that I haven't come across that acronym. If you are talking about a combative course, then SF has none. We conduct Combatives Training during the Q-course, about 8 hours worth, and then it’s decentralized out to the Groups. Some of the Groups didn't even have a program until the Commander United States Army Special Forces Command, BG Toney saw ours and order everyone in SF to mirror our program.

As for your misstatements on contracting...at first I thought that this was a personal attack, but then I just realized that you were ignorant of the contracting process and Special Forces. I won't go into it in detail, but bottom line, the Combative Manual has been assigned as part of his normal duties as a contractor to 1st SFG(A). Also, Datu Worden has been contracted for the last 2 years, which can be verified simply by picking up a phone and call 1st SFG(A) at Fort Lewis. I hope that this information will help you out.

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, a true "whos-who" would be nice... if we can just state facts (verifiable) and avoid the political BS that creeps into such things.

Course, it also helps if we all play nice too. :)

peace
:asian:

[Progressive]

Your right Kaith...I just don't react well to propaganda.
When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.
It was plain to see that it was intended to create doubt as to whether he was authentic or not. As far as Professors legacy I think that it's secure. The art is strong enough to survive the insults of personality.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but isn't CQC the acronym for Close Quarter Combat. I thought that this was a military term. If not I've seen it being used in the "Reality Combat World" alot. Hock Hochheim has a magazine on the topic http://www.hockscqc.com/magazine/index.htm and Emerson Knives has a blade the CQC-7.

Progressive wrote;
This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part so I will give you a few more details. As for your misstatements on contracting...at first I thought that this was a personal attack, but then I just realized that you were ignorant of the contracting process and Special Forces.

I think you need to calm down. On this forum we have had many debates. Many on Modern Arnis are between Arnisador, Mao and myself. But, when everything is said and done, we are friends. We don't need to agree with each other but we still get a long. We do not try to insult or hurt each others feeling. I think that your comment to Arnisador of being ignorant was uncalled for. If he is wrong or misinformed, then point it out in a civil manner. I think that the only ignorance that was proven here is your own.

[Progressive]

You're telling me to calm down and then talk about me being ignorant. Ignorance is the absence of knowledge. Stupidity is knowing the difference and still making the same mistake. I never called anyone stupid, just ignorant. If that is a problem then maybe you might relook your reply. If this is your forum then maybe you might want to post something that outlines your personal likes and dislikes and I will be able to work around them. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What about CQC?

[Progressive]

Not an acronym that we use. CQB Close Quater Battle refers to use of weapons. So yes you are mistaken.

[Mathusula2]

When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.

If you read the thread correctly, it was started by a newcomer who was confused about a couple of titles -- nobody was a target. Furthermore, nobody disrespected the Datu at all; his students overreacted and became very defensive of him, as you are doing right now. Maybe you should take a deep breath and re-read the thread, nobody attacked anybody, but there was a serious amount of defending going on.

[Don Rearic]

As I said in another thread, Kelly is currently and weekly, training U.S. Special Forces. That is one group in his home State of Washington.

He has trained a Ranger Unit, I cannot remember which but I'm sure they were local to that area, as well as U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers which often find themselves in hairy situations.

The Man, "Progressive," came on here and he told you what the deal is and you question it because you wish to question because on the surface, all appears milk and honey and underneath...bitter almonds.

You complain about the use of the word "ignorance" used in the proper manner for the discussion, after supporting calling this Man a liar?

I'm befuddled.

Call Ft. Lewis and find out for yourself, if you are interested, if not, don't. But don't call a Man or even hint that this Man is lying to you until you check it out. He told you who he was, call him and see for yourself. This is fast developing into what it was feared to be to begin with.

[Black Grass]

Progressive,

You do need to light up a little. (From on Bakbakan brother to another :-)). If you are who I think you are Masters Topher and Rey have mentioned you (Ed?). In fact we all need to lighten up a little. I don't think anyone is attacking anyone really. Let's face it we are dealing with a less then perfect medium. Its kinda of hard to know intent unless we endup writing a novel. ( As i sit back in a calm relaxed expression taking a sip of javanese coffee.)

In all the posts about Kelly Worden I don't think anyone questioned or attacked his ability/intention. (At least thats the way I read it).

The only two questions that seem to have come out is:
- His activity in Modern Arnis proper, as in going out and about with the Professor hosting/attending/teaching seminars/camps.
- Kelly Wordens art does not look like Modern Arnis, which is a fair statement I think. He teaches stuff that the Prof. didn't teach in seminars like staff and a blade system.

Neither of these things question Kelly Wordens commitment or loyalty to the Prof. or Modern Arnis. or at least that is how I read it.

Regards,
Black Grass

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
I don't believe that this statement can possibly be correct as stated, even if "chief instructor" is interpreted as chief CQC instructor. It strikes me as a considerable exaggeration.

If Mr. Worden has been contracted to produce the document specified then surely it was bid out as per federal law. Can someone cite documentation to this effect? It will be a matter of public record of course.

We have been most fortunate to have a panoply of Kelly Worden supporters appear all of a sudden on this board. The nature of this post contradicts those who would claim that Mr. Worden's experiences with the military have not been exaggerated. I note also that no one has questioned Mr. Worden's skills--quite the opposite--yet they are constantly being defended.

I would be defensive too if I had the unenviable task of justifying a statement like the one quoted above.


On the subject of calm discussion and of "calming down..."

What is quoted above with particular attention to italicized text, is fairly "in your face" and in a very real way, hinting that the Poster [Progessive] is lying at worst-or using hyperbole at best-to get a point of support for Datu Worden across to people.

That's not the case, anyone can choose to believe what they wish, however. Check it out before you hang a B.S. Title over it. If you cannot believe someone from the 1st SFG, then who will you believe? A Coast Guard Rep?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive
I think that you are saying that I wasn't being entirely truthful in my description of Mr. Wordens title, duties, etc. with 1st Special Forces Group. This is obviously due to quite a bit of ignorance on your part

This may well be so, and I do appreciate the distinction you draw between ignorance and stupidity. What I was saying was that your statement could not be accurate. I did not mean to imply that you were lying.



Oh, also, your information on contracting is false. Although, all contracts must be processed through central contracting they are NOT all put up for bid. As a matter of fact "Sole Source Contracts" are written all the time and are not competitive bids. This is true even for bids over 100K.

Sole source contracts are relatively rare but I grant that this is a possibility.


The Commander, U.S. Army Special Forces Command, after inspecting our program (which, by the way was judged to be the best in SOCOM) and meeting Mr. Worden, directed the 1st SFG(A) to develop this manual and a photographer was assigned to Datu Worden who is in charge of designing the program and producing the document. This is being done as part of his official duties as Chief Combatives Instructor for 1st SFG(A). Now...if you took the statement, that Mr. Worden is the Chief Instructor, out of context and believed that I was talking about something other than Combatives, well...that’s something more than ignorance, but I am sure that isn't the case.


Can you comment on the status of the title 'Chief (Combatives) Instructor' in this context? Is it provided for by law or regulation, or is it an honorary title given to someone who technically is a contractor? Who authroized the granting of this title or filling of this billet (as appropriate)? Can you also comment on in what sense these are 'official duties' as you say? Is this in the sense that he has been contracted to provide certain services--if so 'official duties' seems a bit of an inflated description.



I am not sure what you are getting at with regards to CQC. I don't know what that stands for. I guess during my 24 years in Special Forces that I haven't come across that acronym.

How odd! It's quite standard--you may ask any West Point graduate about CQC (not to be confused with CCQ, 'cadet in charge of quarters') and their "City Streets" training. According to the U.S. Army, this is part of the Rangers' training and the term has been used at least as recently as the 1990s; see http://call.army.mil/products/ctc_bull/01-9/jenkinson.htm for example:

Since their organization under the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC), Rangers have attended the Special
Operations Training (SOT) Course, a course that trains Close Quarters Combat (CQC) techniques. SOT, offered only to
USASOC units and staffed by the best of the best in close quarters fighting, teaches the latest short-range shooting skills,
breaching and barrier penetration techniques, and room-clearing techniques.
(See also http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/7-98-1/chap1.htm for another use of the same term.) Note that CQC includes more than just empty-hand and knife-fighting skills though those are a part of it. (At West Point the Advanced CQC course has been known to focus on the machete for example.) Perhaps the explanation is that you have not yet attended the Special Operations Training (SOT) Course. The term is used in a different way by the Corps of Engineers.

I have no doubt that your statements regarding Mr. Worden are correct in the large--that he helps train them and is producing a manual intended for their benefit--but I strongly suspect that what you have said is not fully and technically accurate. Perhaps you meant to simplify because you assumed your audience here was not familiar with the military and its terminology.


I won't go into it in detail, but bottom line, the Combative Manual has been assigned as part of his normal duties as a contractor to 1st SFG(A).

I'm sure that this is accurate, and that's great. Good luck to Mr. Worden on this project.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive
When I see a Manufactured Q&A session on whether Datu Worden is really Modern Arnis or not, well, It just upset me.

I don't think it was manufactured--many of us honestly do not know much about Mr. Worden. We are, to use your term, ignorant. The question was, who are the Modern Arnis datus? A list was provided. Mr. Jornales, for example, is a Modern Arnis datu who is not truly a Modern Arnis practitioner. Evidently Mr. Worden is a true Modern Arnis practitioner. I accept this, but please believe me when I say that many of us truly did not know. Apply the distinction between ignorance and stupidity to this situation please.

I find the suggestion that it was all "manufactured" a bit ironic given the sudden explosion of Kelly Worden supporters here, all defending him despite the fact that the only comments about his skills that were made prior to their arrival fell into one of two categories: "I've seen him, he's very good" or "I haven't seen him, but I've heard that he's very good". As to Modern Arnis, given that his introductory web page at:
http://www.kellyworden.com/Default2.htm
lists N.S.I. and JKD in large letters then "single stick Modern Arnis" (emphasis added) and a number of other arts in smaller type thereafter, I think that those of us who wondered if he was still strongly connected to the art could be forgiven. The page before it at http://www.kellyworden.com/ does list Modern Arnis and N.S.I. and JKD and I have seen the pictures cited that show him visiting the Professor shortly before his death and I say again, now that I am informed I accept that Mr. Worden is still a Modern Arnis practitioner. But I must agree with the person who suggested that his supporters protest too much.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
If you cannot believe someone from the 1st SFG, then who will you believe? A Coast Guard Rep?

Are you seriously suggesting that if an anonymous person posts to an Internet webboard that they are/were in the Special Forces that I should believe them?

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
Are you seriously suggesting that if an anonymous person posts to an Internet webboard that they are/were in the Special Forces that I should believe them?

As much as I should believe that "Renegade" is Datu Hartman or anyone else? Ya think?

In other words, there has to be a certain degree of trust or you better shut the board down now as it serves no real purpose that would not be better served by an E-mail Chain like Escrima Digest.

Other than that, I knew certain people were going to show up and I know another member of that group or another SF Group that has trained with Datu Worden. It's pretty much common knowledge in that area.

Besides being more active on this board, with all due respect, who titled you Grand Inquisitor?

And, did you make the phone call to Ft. Lewis? West Point nomenclature is dandy, but did you call Ft. Lewis, or would you assume that Datu's reach is such that we have Western Bell switching under control as well to divert calls? :rolleyes:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
As much as I should believe that "Renegade" is Datu Hartman or anyone else?

But this could be verified by e-mailing wmarnis@wmarnis.com, the WMAA's official address. How might I verify that "Progressive" is a Special Forces member if I chose to do so?



And, did you make the phone call to Ft. Lewis? West Point nomenclature is dandy, but did you call Ft. Lewis, or would you assume that Datu's reach is such that we have Western Bell switching under control as well to divert calls?

Can you be more specific? Fort Lewis is a big place, especially since they dumped much of Fort Ord's folks into it. Who on the base is a disinterested official who would be knowledgeable about this matter and willing to speak to me about it? "Call Ft. Lewis" is a bit too vague I'm afraid. I'd be happy to pay the charges if you or someone else would give me a phone number and POC.

I will state again, I believe that Mr. Worden trains members of the military and I am quite prepared to believe that he is writing a manual for them, but the details seem exaggerated.

[Bob Hubbard]

[Admin Mode]
Folks, I'm gonna say it one time.... Play nice.

To the newcomers, and all, we are a friendly forum....there is a link to the rules on the main page.

I'm not too up to date on military terms, ranks, locationes, etc, other than to want a Bradley for xmas. :) Too busy digging out this artic mess called Buffalo right now to really care, or keep more than a casual eye on things here.

In case anyone wants to know who I am... I'm the poor shmuck who runs this forum. We have a couple of good moderators here, and will be adding at least 1 more shortly....But I'm the guy who hosts it, and pays the bills.

This is directed at everyone, old and new. This is a nice forum. Play nice or get the F--- out. I'm too frozen right now to be more 'tactful'

Thank you.
[admin mode off]

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
[Admin Mode]
Folks, I'm gonna say it one time.... Play nice.

To the newcomers, and all, we are a friendly forum....there is a link to the rules on the main page.

I'm not too up to date on military terms, ranks, locationes, etc, other than to want a Bradley for xmas. :) Too busy digging out this artic mess called Buffalo right now to really care, or keep more than a casual eye on things here.

In case anyone wants to know who I am... I'm the poor shmuck who runs this forum. We have a couple of good moderators here, and will be adding at least 1 more shortly....But I'm the guy who hosts it, and pays the bills.

This is directed at everyone, old and new. This is a nice forum. Play nice or get the F--- out. Take the pissing contests to email or PM.

[admin mode off]

Hey, this is the deal. This is factional, apparently. Factions often have certain hostilities. I don't see anyone in here getting nasty enough to even warrant this and I've moderated a few forums myself and currently do so now. What you are doing is actually going to cause more of a split because it is rather heavy handed. For example, the only person to use any real profanity towards anyone has been you.

Now, you can most certainly ban me from this site for saying that, people can make a value judgment on that action if you choose to do so.

There was a statement made than Datu Worden is doing "X." Someone wants to question that but they want someone to do the leg work for them, whatever-whatever, he can pick the phone up himself.

I don't think it is proper to chase the tail about it. Datu Worden is contracted to do precisely what has been stated, training and manual and it seems that he has to be taken down a notch. If you choose to quell people who are defending him...then this place will merely be seen as a sandbox for one faction.

Everyone should take a step back before that happens.

[Bob Hubbard]

Don,
I'm not "quelling" anyone. I'm seeing a heat level rise, and seeking to prevent a blow up that requires more drastic action.

I'm saying, if you, or -ANYONE- feels the need to get all Hot about it, take it private. Maybe other forums are more willing to serve as battlegrounds and political posturing, but not this one.

On Datu Worden - I do not know the man, nor do I know his followers. I'm happy to see a group of them here. The more the merrier.

There was a question on identity - I simply identified myself.

On my wording - perhaps I could have been a bit more tactful. I'm sorry. I am majorly exhausted from fighting a losing battle against nature. That, combined with several emails and phone calls about problems here contributed to a more reactive posting.

On my message: In the past, we have had 1 situation surrounding the MA succession issue that had resulted in 1 banned user, based on threats. I do not want a repeat of that. There has been a bit of concern over the perception of heat growing surrounding a few of the folks involved in this thread perhaps. My intent is to throw a little water on the hot areas, before things go boom.

Is this site factional? Yes. And grows more so as each organizations participation grows.

My primary 2 concerns are the smooth functioning of this site, and its growing usefulness to the martial arts community as a whole.

On the phone call :please post the phone number...a toll free one preferred.

On banning someone:

Now, you can most certainly ban me from this site for saying that, people can make a value judgment on that action if you choose to do so.
I take this comment of yours as a challenge. There seem to be a few people here who think that if they say something “politically incorrect” that we will kick em off this board. We do not ban without cause. We have guidelines on why we would do so. You can disagree with me, argue with me, go against the “norm” here etc. I think a little controversy is good, as it creates new interest and we gain new members with more diverse experience. That’s not a reason to silence you, or anyone. All it does is make me a censor. Play within our rules, and you're welcome here. You don't like them, then you do not have to stay. Its a free site. As I've said many, many times, we welcome all for friendly discussion of martial topics.

If you (or anyone reading this) still have an issue with me, then please PM me and we can see if we can smooth it out. In the mean time, lets return this thread to its original intent.

[GouRonin]

Wooo! That's it Kaith! You and me at the little shop down the road from the Renegade's:erg: place! That's right baby! I challenge you to put your foot onto the brass rail and pony up! Oh man! there will be a quakin' and a shakin' baby! You're going down!
:eek:

[Keil Randor]

Very interesting thread......

Someone wades in here, immediately starts defending someone, who shouldnt need defending, a few points are called into question, and the whole place is in an uproar. Now, you folks are practicially walking around waving banners and blowing, horns, screaming "Ban Me, I dare ya".

It seems that Durin's Bane has risen from the Shadow, yet this time is not so much spewing Fire, but Methane.

[Pappy Geo]

He is a true American Warrior!

He was a Special Forces Green Beret Team Leader taking his team into over 20 countries, some Covert and many combative.
He has seen the fat lady sing!

He has trained in martial Arts for over 20 years all across the world including much time in the Philipines. He came to us at NSI (Datu Worden) and apparently liked what he saw. He was in charge of the martial arts program for the SF 1st group at Fort Lewis. He had been searching for a combative arts instructor to teach his people and found it in his back yard! He was the man responsible for negotiating and having the CG approve the contract. He further arranged for the three star General in charge of all the Army's Unconvential Warfare to visit Datu Worden on the training site at Fort Lewis, watched us while Datu briefed him on the training and the reviewed the training manual

I was in Vietnam on a Coast Guard boat, Yea Don even the Coast guard goes to war and I know the terror, fear and adrenalin rushs
of war. But it is not he same as one on one, face to face, hand to hand combat! It is my honor to have him as a friend and part of my extended family! If he seems somewhat defensive that is because he is not accustomed to having is word or authority questioned.He knows what kind of combative arts works in a real life situation! Progressive is the real thing whereas most of the rest of us are wanna be's, including myself.

Not only is he a true American warrior, he is an American Hero.
Please be respectful of Progressive and honor his word.

Pappy Geo,

Unclassified

[Pappy Geo]

Whoops part of my posting is missing I have been refering to Progressive, sorry about that

[Cthulhu]

<mod hat/on>
Please, don't be so immature as to issue a challenge to be banned. If you are going to behave like that, then go to RMA.

It's very simple. Post civilly. Think before you hit that 'submit reply' button. One wrong phrasing can cause one heck of a big stink. We've already seen it once on this board, and frankly, I don't want to see it happen again. This goes to everybody, including myself.

I came here to get away from such inane bickering, like that found on RMA. This board has been a great place to network and share information. Many of the 'old-timers' (if you can call them that...the board isn't that old) have actually gotten together to train, chat, get drunk, etc.

Very simply put: if you cannot abide by the rules of the board, then you need to leave. If you do not listen to the admin (Kaith), you need to leave. If all you intend to do is cram your ideals down somebody else's throat, you need to leave. Whether this is willingly or because of a ban it up to you. Kaith and IFAJKD know that I have FAR more important things to worry about than playing babysitter to a bunch of rather pointless bickering. Play nice or get the hell out of our sandbox.

Sometimes, it's just better to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

<mod hat/off>

Cthulhu

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I don't know what to think. A group of Worden's warriors come on the formum and start accusing everyone of trash talking him. People have asked about his credencials and we hear that you can't put rank as an important factor. That I find particulaly funny as I'm a full time martial arts instrutor. I get asked that question all the time. I usually tell the person my rank, but now I'll change my tactics and just kick their ass and prove how tough I am.

I make a comment that based on the tapes that I've SEEN, his movement reminds me of JKD Kali.
Worden's site reads
Welcome to Kelly Worden's
Natural Spirit International
The Home of Renegade Jeet Kune Do

Datu Kelly S. Worden is one of the most sought after instructors worldwide. With over 30 years Martial Arts experience and the author of 18 internationally acclaimed instructional videos. Datu Worden's curriculum covers single stick Modern Arnis, close-quarter Kali, double stick Escrima, Kuntao - trapping, Combat Knife, double knife, Staff - Sibat, Defensive tactics, Renegade Jeet Kune Do, and much, much, more.

After reading this it would explain to me why some one else may come to the same conclusion.

When I say that CQC could stand for Close Quarter Combat, I'm told by the Special Forces person that I'm wrong and the Military doesn't use that acronym, yet it reads as plain as day on military sites that the Rangers (a SF group) train in it.

Then we here that certain members aren't used to being questioned which should excuse his comments. This doesn't seem to be a reasonable excuse for being rude. There is no reason that any members of this new group can't answer these questions in a civil manner. Then they dare to be banned from this forum.

This is not the best way to win people over to your cause! Don started things out well, but it didn't take long for things to deteriorate.

Generally I put more time into my posts, but since Christmas Eve we got 7 feet of snow here in Buffalo and I'm very tired of clearing my driveway several times a day!

P.S. Don, for the record, as founder of the Modern Arnis section on this website and the 1st and ONLY Datu here, I've bestowed the title of Grand Tuhon Inquisitor on Arnisador.






:samurai: :armed: :asian:

[Mao]

Hey Renegade,
You spelled "credentials" wrong. You must be Rocky trained. :eek:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Don't tell anyone.

:asian:

[no fefe]

I think things are getting a little out of hand.

As far as rank is concerned the way we see it is (and I say this without making any ridiculous challenge) there are many people that hold a high rank (by the way I am not referring to anyone specific) but can't put it to practical use and if it can't be put to practical use then what is the point? I'm sure you all have seen these people and have seen these type of schools.


Robert K

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I agree. I've seen many paper dragons, but this does not make rank an invalid question or a reason to start an argument. It's just a question like on a job interview.

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by no fefe
I think things are getting a little out of hand.

I agree.



As far as rank is concerned the way we see it is (and I say this without making any ridiculous challenge) there are many people that hold a high rank (by the way I am not referring to anyone specific) but can't put it to practical use and if it can't be put to practical use then what is the point?

I agree.

What rank does Mr. Worden hold in Modern Arnis?

[Don Rearic]

I have to address three at once for certain comments...generic.

1. Startling, I honestly don't know what "RMA" is and from the sound of it, I probably don't want to know. I've joined several Forums in the past few years, does that stand for "Real Martial Arts" or something? I've joined and left some Forums in the past, I could even be registered there and just never posted in quite some time.

2. I think people are showing restraint, not really flying off of the handle and that's why I said what I did.

3. I don't think my post or the posts of others in the general conversation has "deteriorated" at all. I AM still in your sandbox and acting responsibly and respectfully.

4. The tone of the post from the Administrator was in question. Personally, I wish there was better Moderation on ALOT of Internet Forums instead of allowing trolls to destroy them! I think that particular action was a bit heavy.

5. Looking at #4, I have no desire nor intention to be involved in Little Boy Games about challenging people to death matches or threatening them physically at all. Never even hinted at that. I can understand if you have had a problem with that in the past. Just please remember, my modem is not made out of Kamagong, I can't really reach out and hit anyone with it, nor would I. :D

6. The term "CQC," Close Quarter(s) Combat is a tricky one. There is CQC, CQB "Close Quarter(s) Battle," and even CC, "Close Combat." It's quite likely that one group would scratch their head at having a term that is alien to them being used. I think it is proper to say that things are not so cut and dry when it comes to these terms. For example, Datu Hartman, Rangers are in the SpecOps Units, but they are not "SF." Special Forces are SF. It gets a bit nitpicky, but it's not my system either! There are alot of SF guys who wear "Ranger" tabs, for that Qualification as well, but they are different so I would not be surprised if some terminology was different as well.

I would like to go back to this statement that I made:


On the subject of calm discussion and of "calming down..."

What is quoted above with particular attention to italicized text, is fairly "in your face" and in a very real way, hinting that the Poster [Progessive] is lying at worst-or using hyperbole at best-to get a point of support for Datu Worden across to people.

That's not the case, anyone can choose to believe what they wish, however. Check it out before you hang a B.S. Title over it. If you cannot believe someone from the 1st SFG, then who will you believe? A Coast Guard Rep?

First of all, I would like to apologize about the Coast Guard crack! See, even I can make a mistake. ;)

This is what originally drew a bit of fire, Gents. The remarks I spoke about were "in your face." Now...here is the problem as I see it.

We can in a very real way have a meaningful discussion, but the way I see it is...there was some fire there on both sides. Fire is fine, I understand you don't want a wild one. But there simply is no exaggeration on the part of "Progressive." It is what it is. I think early on I truthfully stated that I'm weary of seeing "SpecOps" associations with various Instructors. They throw it out like spaghetti and when it sticks, its done, you know what I mean? They use that as a foothold to gain notoriety.

Such is not the case with Datu Worden.

I don't understand where there is a resistance to accept these things unless someone does not want Datu Worden to be seen in that light. That's the truth as I see it. You can question things, absolutely. But when you more or less call someone a liar or hint at them being a liar and they get a bit hot under the collar, well... Some things carry with them an "inevitable result."

As for me daring or challenging you to ban me. You can take it the way I meant it or the way you wish to. Given the tone of the post, I figured that was what was coming next. [shrug]

[Edited minutes later for poor keystrokes leading to typos. :D ]

[Cthulhu]

1. RMA = rec.martialarts Martial arts newsgroup.
4. Kaith, as admin and founder of this board, can really do or say whatever the hell he wants, whenever and however he wants. This board is his baby. If he wanted to kick me off one day for no reason, it's his right. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I couldn't do anything to stop him, really.

Kaith, lock this damn thread, will ya?

Cthulhu

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
1. RMA = rec.martialarts Martial arts newsgroup.

Oh GAWD, I want nothing to do with that scene at all!


4. Kaith, as admin and founder of this board, can really do or say whatever the hell he wants, whenever and however he wants. This board is his baby. If he wanted to kick me off one day for no reason, it's his right. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I couldn't do anything to stop him, really.

That is true, but that would not make it right either.


Kaith, lock this damn thread, will ya?

Cthulhu

Why? I don't see where it is getting out of hand at all...why lock it and then leave everything fester when no one is getting carried away with any threats or any other concerns that were voiced?

[no fefe]

To be truthful I have never asked Datu, I have seen and felt his skills and that is enough for me.

I have been to Presas seminars where Prof. Presas addressed him as a Datu and publicly stated how much he cared about Datu Worden and even stated that Datu Worden was going to be teaching blade work at one of the camps. I figure if Professor addressed him as a Datu then that is good enough.

In regards to the camp Arnisador it is open to everybody, you should come and check it out I think it will be worth the trip.

Robert K.

[no fefe]

and point of views are being seen. I don't see a reason to lock this thread.

Datu Hartman isn't the only person that doesn't like to mince his words in here and I think we are all starting to see things clearly now.

Anway.....

Robert K.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Listen,
we want everyone to feel welcome here. Times are hard for everyone now. We ALL lost Remy. Some of us where closer to him than others, but we all still share the same loss. When there are losses like this sometimes we must remeber that tempers may be running a little high. No one of us know evreything and we must take that into account. Some times a question is just a question.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by no fefe
To be truthful I have never asked Datu, I have seen and felt his skills and that is enough for me.

Fair enough! I agree that this is the best test, and if you don't know and don't care then I certainly respect that. Many instructors in other FMA systems have no rank of any sort because the ranking system just isn't used!


I figure if Professor addressed him as a Datu then that is good enough.

One might say the asme about titles as rank, in fact--if you have seen and felt his skills then presumably that is enough. For me, who has never worked with him, the fact that the Professor gave him that title is a significant factor.


In regards to the camp Arnisador it is open to everybody, you should come and check it out I think it will be worth the trip.

I'm sure it would--I have read about Mr. Worden's teachings in the martial arts magazines and would be very interested.

[Red Blade]

Since you guys brought it up,
Who was his JKD instructor and what level of certification does he have?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
When there are losses like this sometimes we must remeber that tempers may be running a little high.

Yes. I have not meant to imply anything negative about Mr. Worden, for example. In saying that Progressive's statements were exaggerated I meant nothing more than that--I have no doubt that they are correct in the large but I question the details. As with the CQC/CQB issue mentioned, it may be at least in part a language issue.



Some times a question is just a question.

Absolutely--yes. The point about ignorance remains well taken.

[Bob Hubbard]

A few points:

1- Banning - Unless you're a major PITA, or other disruptive influence, I'd prefer not to ban anyone. It makes for a represive scene, and I'd personally prefer to avoid it. Cthulhu's right...I -can- do anything I want....that doesn't mean I will. My concern is the stability and long term growth of Martial Talk.

2- RMA - Ditto. :)

3-
4. The tone of the post from the Administrator was in question. Personally, I wish there was better Moderation on ALOT of Internet Forums instead of allowing trolls to destroy them! I think that particular action was a bit heavy.
My admin style - I try to not butt in too much. Most of you folks are much more versed in the MA world than I. I try to be a bit more, laid back. Chalk part of this issue up to a few misunderstandings, and too little sleep. This forum is special, and several of us here have put alot of effort into making it a friendly, growing place. I don't wish to see the hard work thats gone into it destroyed. I'm not of the mindset to act the dictator role. The fact that several individuals recently have done the "I dont know if Im gonna get banned for this.." bit has put us on guard. Its ok to be politically incorrect here....just not a PITA. Any questions on posts, or concerns PM me and I'm more than willing to advise ways to minimize the 'flare ups'. Controversy is good....open warfare is bad.

4- Datu Worden's camps - Please post a schedule when available into the apropriate forums, and on the calander if you could please. :)

5- Locking this thread - Not yet. no fefe had a valid observation.

6- the other non-answered issues - Thats for y'all to work out, civilly.

7- me - if -anyone- has an issue with how this board is run, please feel free to email, pm or call me and we can discuss it. I'd prefer the email method, as in most cases its a LD call, and I'm rarely in the office as of late. You can also post your suggestions on improvements on our Support Forum. I'm always open to ways to make us better.

Peace.

:asian:

[Don Rearic]

That's very even-handed and more than fair. Thank you.

On a personal level, I detest Bulletin Board Trolls myself. They disrupt and in general, cause a bad scene.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Red Blade
Since you guys brought it up,
Who was his JKD instructor and what level of certification does he have?

Someone cited Jesse Glover and I've spoken with Datu Worden about Mr. Glover, maybe more properly, Sifu Glover. One of Bruce Lee's first students, if not the first student of Bruce Lee.

I think that alone is a certification...itself. No one says that man is not skilled. :D

I honestly don't know if Mr. Glover is certified by Guro Inosanto or not, I have no knowledge of any of that. I also think that he is quite possibly beyond anything that would resemble certification.

And that is said with respect to all parties involved.

[Cthulhu]

Lee himself only ever certified three people as JKD instructors:

1) Taky Kimura
2) James Lee
3) Dan Inosanto

Last I heard (and it was some time ago), Glover taught, but he didn't use the name JKD. This is understandable, as he was taught a modified form of Wing Chun. I don't even think Jun Fan kickboxing/gung fu had been introduced yet. That being said, if someone is to be certified in JKD by Glover, then Glover himself would have had to have been certified by one of the three mentioned above, or someone of that lineage. This is entirely probable, but I haven't seen anything confirming this yet.

This has no bearing on Glover's skill as a martial artist. This is only to clarify JKD certification. I can't remember if Glover gave a name to what he taught. I think DeMile was teaching what he called the 'Tao of Wing Chun Do' or something like that. I don't think Glover used a name like that, though. From what little I've seen of Glover and his martial art, he seems to be very skilled and a good teacher, so there is no question of his ability.

On a separate note, I seem to remember that quite some time ago, Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura got together to rank themselves in JKD. I think Taky was placed at 7th rank and Inosanto at 6th. The 8th rank (the highest) is forever reserved for Lee. I am always amazed by Inosanto's humility. After all he has done for JKD, and as famous as he is as a JKD instructor, he always considers Kimura his senior in JKD.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
On a separate note, I seem to remember that quite some time ago, Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura got together to rank themselves in JKD. I think Taky was placed at 7th rank and Inosanto at 6th. The 8th rank (the highest) is forever reserved for Lee.

Can you say more about this? I hadn't heard it before.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Lee himself only ever certified three people as JKD instructors:

1) Taky Kimura
2) James Lee
3) Dan Inosanto

On a separate note, I seem to remember that quite some time ago, Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura got together to rank themselves in JKD. I think Taky was placed at 7th rank and Inosanto at 6th. The 8th rank (the highest) is forever reserved for Lee. I am always amazed by Inosanto's humility. After all he has done for JKD, and as famous as he is as a JKD instructor, he always considers Kimura his senior in JKD.

Cthulhu

Indeed. Valuable observations. There is some association or possibly more, from Mr. [Sifu] Taky Kimura and Datu Worden as well, as far as I know. Things tend to get a bit confusing as I mentioned before. I guess I have to make another phone call tomorrow!

[Cthulhu]

Arnisador,

Aw crap...you had to go and ask that, didn't you? I think IFAJKD may have mentioned it here some time back, but my memory is never to be trusted. If I feel crazy enough, I'll search through his posts to see. IFAJKD is the only certified JKD instructor (under Vunak, which means Inosanto lineage) that I know of on this board, so I defer to him in JKD matters.

Cthulhu

[Don Rearic]

This (http://www.kellyworden.com/datu/DATU.HTM) might answer some questions although it is not an interview geared specifically to the questions raised in this thread.

[Pappy Geo]

Are we all not Brothers in the same art? Its like siblings spatting and posturing. Why don't we take this back to something useful and/or educational? If you don't choose to believe the information posted previously, that is your choice and lets leave it at that. I guess the intent was to follow up with information on Datu Worden as some of you requested. If I offended anybody please accept my apology. There is a lot of additional information us Northwest Coast brothers can pass on about modern Arnis in this area. What is awkward is not knowing who you are conversing with? I believe I have figured out who Datu Hartman is but I my sure about some of the others.

Peace Brothers,

Lets go forward in an informative manner.

The snow storm must be really hell to deal with! Be safe

Pappy Geo:D

[Don Rearic]

When I watched the news tonight, these fellows looked like they were really being pounded by the snow. :rofl:

[Bob Hubbard]

<offtopic>

Don,
It's like Hoth up here....but worse. The AT-AT's said its just too much for em.. :eek:

I got 7ft in the drive way...was 2/3 done last night, and this morning it was like we did nothing....its hell, only colder.

</offtopic>

:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

Re: Datu's.

I did a quick look at that link. (will reread when heads clearer).
It mentioned there were 3 Datus. Earlier I saw a list (I think) of 6 or so.

How many are there, who are they, and what are their areas of experience? (just looking for a list, not a critique)

Dankes!
:asian:

[Bob]

Jesse Glover refers to his art as "Non classical Wing Chun"
I would also like to comment on what FeFe said regarding Datu Worden, I have been with Datu Worden for 13 years and never inquired about a rank. I accepted him as instructor because of his ability, teaching skills and the obvious love he put into his art. I have noticed the differences between Datu Worden and other Modern Arnis instructors in the way they move, and the emphasize they put on certain lesson they what you to learn and carry with you, but overall the base techinque is Arnis.
Thanks
Bob

[no fefe]

Well the camp is held every Labor Day weekend.
There is some information about last years camp at:
http://www.kellyworden.com/camp2000/camp2001.html

When I get more info then I will post it on the calendar as requested.

RK

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Re: Datu's.

I did a quick look at that link. (will reread when heads clearer).
It mentioned there were 3 Datus. Earlier I saw a list (I think) of 6 or so.

How many are there, who are they, and what are their areas of experience? (just looking for a list, not a critique)

That would be Datu Shishir Inocallo, Datu Kelly Worden and the third I'm not sure of. I know the name, just cannot think of it.

I think it is proper to say at this time, just so no confusion and bad feelings might occur of that particular interview...

That was an interview that appeared in a Paladin Press Catalog. Because of the nature of things, the actual filming-footage and or associated interviews, etc., that may have taken place a year or two earlier than the debut of the media being presented. So, the interview and statements made in same might be quite old.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Why don't we take this back to something useful and/or educational? If you don't choose to believe the information posted previously, that is your choice and lets leave it at that. I guess the intent was to follow up with information on Datu Worden as some of you requested.

The information on Mr. Worden has been helpful and it is appreciated. Many of us just didn't know that much about his Modern Arnis connection other than the fact that it existed.



If I offended anybody please accept my apology.


I too apologize for having given offense. As Mr. Hartman said, we all feel the loss of the Professor and that makes this a difficult time. Watching the confusion in the IMAFs, MARPPIO, etc. doesn't help.



What is awkward is not knowing who you are conversing with? I believe I have figured out who Datu Hartman is but I my sure about some of the others.

Surely the same is true of you to an extent, Pappy Geo! Such is the nature of anonymity on the Internet. But yes, Renegade is Mr. Hartman, and Mr. Hartman's biographical information is available here:
http://www.wmarnis.com/resume.html
I am one of Mr. Hartman's black belt students; more information about Mr. Hartman and myself is available near the bottom of this page:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
The person posting as Mao is a member of the IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors (but not the Steering Committee):
http://www.modernarnis.net/about/board.shtml
We also have on this board Prof. Presas' son Demetrio Presas who posts as DPRESAS:
http://www.modernarnis.com/bio_demetrio.htm
I hope this helps!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by no fefe
There is some information about last years camp at:
http://www.kellyworden.com/camp2000/camp2001.html


Thanks! Pricey, but it does include room and board. I note from that page:

Kelly Worden
Endorsed by Remy Presas as Senior Blade Master of Modern Arnis

There are more titles out there than I realized! As has been said of Ed Parker, the Professor was creating a modern and I believe American art (Filipino-American, if you prefer) and was intentionally making new traditions as he went along.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
It mentioned there were 3 Datus. Earlier I saw a list (I think) of 6 or so.

How many are there, who are they, and what are their areas of experience? (just looking for a list, not a critique)


Mr. Hartman addressed this earlier in this very forum:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497&pagenumber=1



Shishiar Inacallo-Canada
Kelly Worden-USA
Ric Jornales-USA
David Hoffman-USA currently UK
Dieter Knuttel-Germany
Tim Hartman (myself)-USA


I believe that this list is in chronological order. Note that Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu but is not a Modern Arnis practitioner. (Mr. Hartman will surely correct me if he feels that I am mistaken on this.) I do not know if the IMAFs or MARPPIO recognize these titles, but these are the ones granted by the Professor.

[Don Rearic]

I just had a wonderful conversation with Datu Kelly, as they always tend to be...talk about a wealth of information. Whew...

So, I am able to list a few other things that people have been wondering about...

There were more JKD links than Jesse Glover and Taky Kimura as well...there was a longtime friendship with Guro Ted "Lucky" Lucaylucay, who has also passed on some time ago [RIP] as well as a connection with Guro Sonny Umpad, a Master in his own System of Corto Cadena and much more...many different links.

It really is awesome stuff to hear and to try to comprehend at times.

I mentioned a few days ago that more information is coming, this is tricky but I can now tell you what that will be and the medium(s) of precisely how it will be released to the Public.

I've been given the responsibility of a word-for-word transcription of the last recorded Interview with Professor Remy Presas on Datu Kelly Worden's Radio Show. This is much more of an honor than a responsibility, but I do have to take my time and be 100% accurate. This will appear in the future, online, in a format that is either going to be Streaming Audio or a download format.

It will also appear in Black Belt Magazine in the future. That's a high honor indeed.

On the portion of tape that I have heard, Professor Presas lists four (4) Datu; Shishiar Inacallo, Kelly Worden, Dieter Knuttel and David Hoffman. I have not heard all of the tape(s) yet but Professor Presas clearly stated that Datu Kelly Worden is the highest ranked Datu in the United States. There is going to be more of that later as the Professor had a very high opinion of Datu Kelly Worden.

I'm not saying this to stir a flame festival, I still have to review the material in its entirety.

I also asked Datu Worden what his last, Certified Rank on Paper was in Modern Arnis and he informed me that would be 6th Degree Black Belt, awarded around 1991.

On the taped excerpts I have listened to so far, Professor speaks of Espada y Daga and many other things, Tapi-Tapi and so much more. It was such an honor to hear his voice...given the circumstances.

Guro Roland Dantes has been mentioned in this or the other thread. I cannot remember who it was that was wondering what his Rank or Connection mattered in the current question(s) regarding Datu Worden...

There is a direct link between Professor Presas and Roland Dantes, to say the least, the Professor during the Interview referring back to Mr. Dantes several times and referring to him as his "good" or "close" friend...Professor spoke of the Title of Datu, proper and referred back to Mr. Dantes, etc. It is the last, valuable insight of a great man.

Most importantly to many who love these Arts, all FMAs, Professor Presas had a clear message to Filipino People that the American People were taking their Culture and that the Filipino People must be active and become involved and reverse that. That is paraphrasing.

I'm NOT saying that the Professor claimed Americans were stealing their culture, I think he was speaking about a lackadaisical attitude that has allowed this. He wanted the control of the Arts to be in a certain place. Datu Worden has told me many times that it is the Art of the Filipino People and it should be in their control, I agree with that. It is not his intention to do anything else, as per the wishes of Professor Presas.

Please understand this is all still developing, but you will eventually be able to read the transcripts and even better, you will be able to hear them one day soon. You know how magazines are and whatnot...

With Respect,

Don

[GouRonin]

Although I myself pic this up I do it for more information reasosns as the magazine itself is not highly respected anymore. It's very political and advertisment oriented.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Although I myself pic this up I do it for more information reasosns as the magazine itself is not highly respected anymore. It's very political and advertisment oriented.

You ain't kiddin' Brother...I buy it when something catches my eye. Otherwise, I already have over one hundred of them telling me how effective TKD is against knives.

Regardless, Professor Presas was recognized by Black Belt and he is in The Hall of Fame and that means more than anything else.

[no fefe]

the magazine Full Contact!




Later,
RK

[Don Rearic]

:D

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Although I myself pic this up I do it for more information reasosns as the magazine itself is not highly respected anymore. It's very political and advertisment oriented.

Yes, I agree. In most of the martial arts magazines nowadays there seems to be a very high correlation between advertisers and interviewees. They're also easily blown toward the latest fad. I flip through them at the bookstore but rarely purchase one anymore.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
I've been given the responsibility of a word-for-word transcription of the last recorded Interview with Professor Remy Presas on Datu Kelly Worden's Radio Show. This is much more of an honor than a responsibility, but I do have to take my time and be 100% accurate. This will appear in the future, online, in a format that is either going to be Streaming Audio or a download format.

That's great. I wasn't aware that Mr. Worden had a radio show--does he still do it? When is this tape from?



On the portion of tape that I have heard, Professor Presas lists four (4) Datu; Shishiar Inacallo, Kelly Worden, Dieter Knuttel and David Hoffman. I have not heard all of the tape(s) yet but Professor Presas clearly stated that Datu Kelly Worden is the highest ranked Datu in the United States.

I'm not sure if this conflicts with what Mr. Hartman has said about there being six datus or not--it depends on when the interview took place I suppose. Though I believe that Mr. Jornales was made a datu before Messrs. Hoffman and Knuttel; could this be the revoked title you hinted at earlier?



I also asked Datu Worden what his last, Certified Rank on Paper was in Modern Arnis and he informed me that would be 6th Degree Black Belt, awarded around 1991.

Thanks for finding the answer to this! I take this as Lakan Anim (one might argue that that's 7th degree because there is a Lakan rank). He must have been made a datu while a fifth degree or so, then, since I believe it's been said that he was awarded the datu title circa 1988.



Most importantly to many who love these Arts, all FMAs, Professor Presas had a clear message to Filipino People that the American People were taking their Culture and that the Filipino People must be active and become involved and reverse that. That is paraphrasing.

I'm NOT saying that the Professor claimed Americans were stealing their culture, I think he was speaking about a lackadaisical attitude that has allowed this.

I think I know what you mean--that the Americans were appreciative of the FMA but the Filipinos didn't always seem to appreciate what a cultural gift they had to give. I know he wanted more Filipinos active in the FMA--he devoted much effort to this before he left the Philippines, after all.

Sounds interesting. I will be curious to hear what organization, if any, Mr. Worden supports: IMAF under Mr. Delaney, IMAF, Inc. under Dr. Schea, or MARPPIO under Dr. Presas (or other). I might take your post to suggest that he favors MARPPIO over the "official" co-successors and co-grandmasters. Do you know if he has made a statement about this?

Thanks again for being so patient in getting the answers to these questions for us. I say again, many of us simply didn't know what he was doing and where he stood. This has been great, despite any bumps on the road to insight.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
That's great. I wasn't aware that Mr. Worden had a radio show--does he still do it? When is this tape from?

I think he still does it. I shall find out.

This particular excerpt was June 21, 2001.


I'm not sure if this conflicts with what Mr. Hartman has said about there being six datus or not--it depends on when the interview took place I suppose. Though I believe that Mr. Jornales was made a datu before Messrs. Hoffman and Knuttel; could this be the revoked title you hinted at earlier?

I don't know that a Datu Title was revoked at all. And if not officially done so then, it cannot be done now in any event for any reason...not by Professor Presas. That's not said to be flip, it's just what he awarded can hardly be undercut now.

Datu Worden told me several times that the original intent of Professor Presas was to have ten (10) Datus but that never reached fruition.

In the excerpt(s) I have heard thus far, all six were not mentioned and there could be several reasons for this. When I receive the tapes and start transcribing them, we'll see what else happens with this. People must look at what they support and have supported in the past to find the answers.


Thanks for finding the answer to this! I take this as Lakan Anim (one might argue that that's 7th degree because there is a Lakan rank). He must have been made a datu while a fifth degree or so, then, since I believe it's been said that he was awarded the datu title circa 1988.

It is my belief that Datu Worden was given a free hand to explore as he wished and he did so, and that was with the blessing of Professor Presas.

Rank has been both praised and condemned in the past few days in these two threads. I have a personal feeling about this.

You have to understand something about my part in this. In many ways, I'm a mere messenger and some things I do in fact know about, some things I do not. I have my own opinions about Martial Arts in general and FMAs in particular.

Of course, I don't have a "problem" with someone being granted Title or License to Instruct. I don't have a problem with a "Higher Chain of Command" if you will. The idea of belts, now this is ME speaking and not Datu Worden AT ALL, to me for junior students...has always been something to please the ego of a student. I think this is why you see "belts" looked on with disdain now. Because in so many systems, you pull the time and you pay the fees, you get the rank and we all know that is a terrible rust that develops...it is mediocrity in many Systems. If it works in Modern Arnis, I think that is GREAT. I'm just trying to explain the way other people may have reacted to questions of Datu Worden's "Official Rank." They know he is "The Real Deal" and after having been involved in other Arts, rank is basically meaningless to some people. I admit having the same prejudice.

There have also been statements made to the effect that there is no "knife and staff in Modern Arnis."

This goes back to a Father giving certain children different things, the Father being Professor Presas and the children being the Datu, etc.

Datu Worden has a picture of he and Professor Presas working staff together, so the staff did exist in what area. Now, if someone else never seen nor heard of it, well...that's another debate. Professor Presas also bestowed on Datu Worden the Title of Blade Master of Modern Arnis, so obviously the blade is in there somewhere along the line.

It does get confusing and even more so now with the tragic loss of The Professor.


I think I know what you mean--that the Americans were appreciative of the FMA but the Filipinos didn't always seem to appreciate what a cultural gift they had to give. I know he wanted more Filipinos active in the FMA--he devoted much effort to this before he left the Philippines, after all.

Sounds perfectly correct to me, that is what I wanted to get across. And this ties into your last question/statement.


Sounds interesting. I will be curious to hear what organization, if any, Mr. Worden supports: IMAF under Mr. Delaney, IMAF, Inc. under Dr. Schea, or MARPPIO under Dr. Presas (or other). I might take your post to suggest that he favors MARPPIO over the "official" co-successors and co-grandmasters. Do you know if he has made a statement about this?

I think it is safe to say two things on this matter.

1. Professor Presas wished to have His Art, and no matter how much any man loves this Art, it was his before anyone else's, he wished to have his Art controlled by his People. I think that is right and just.

2. Seeing that #1 above is The Professor's wish, I think it a cliche' to say, "This was his last wish..." Maybe it was and maybe it was not, but Professor was clear on this issue that he wanted the Filipino People to control the Destiny of Modern Arnis. Because of this, Datu Worden will support the movement to that End. To Honor the Wishes of GM Professor Remy Presas.

I also know that Datu Worden is in contact with The Presas Family, so...take from that what you will.


Thanks again for being so patient in getting the answers to these questions for us. I say again, many of us simply didn't know what he was doing and where he stood. This has been great, despite any bumps on the road to insight.

No problem, it has been far easier than learning HTML, FTP and even this new Morpheus Music Download Program I've been fooling with tonight. :D

But the lure of having that rare Ram Jam song to do Sinawalli to in the living room could not escape me...

Sometimes roads are bumpy, the roads to nowhere are what we have to avoid.

I would just ask that everyone try to hold together and not fragment and explode like so many other Arts have done in the past when the Patriarch passed on. It really is important, it is your Art and I would hate to see things become even more splintered in the future.

Respectfully,

Don

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
This particular excerpt was June 21, 2001.


I didn't realize the Professor did an interview this late into his illness. This will be a treasure.


Datu Worden told me several times that the original intent of Professor Presas was to have ten (10) Datus but that never reached fruition.

I hadn't heard that. These issues of titles and rank are complicated by the fact that the North American and Filipino IMAFs were so separate after the Professor's arrival in the U.S. The MARPPIO group seems to have titles such as Senior Master Guro that I don't believe we have here.

I don't intend to seem focused on rank and titles, but in the Professor's absence and without the will having been published they are in effect his only recommendations that I can access. I have had the same experiences with schools that give out rank regularly, for a fee, and in fact the Professor occasionally gave out cross-rankings which I personally dislike, so while rank alone is not to be trusted one might factor it in, and use it to help determine where the Professor wished to place people, to recall a phrase from a much earlier thread.



There have also been statements made to the effect that there is no "knife and staff in Modern Arnis."

This goes back to a Father giving certain children different things, the Father being Professor Presas and the children being the Datu, etc.

Datu Worden has a picture of he and Professor Presas working staff together, so the staff did exist in what area.

Clearly there is knifework in the art; espada y daga is a part of it. I never saw the Professor use the staff and never saw it listed on any official curriculum (say, posted at the IMAF site) and so I don't know if I would interpret the photo you mention in exactly the same way or not. Other possibilities include the fact that the Professor had studied many arts and would have known the staff (including from his karate training) and may have occasionally trained with or even taught it but did not meant to include it in arnis, or that--as happened so often--the Professor changed his notion of what exactly was included in Modern Arnis as time went on. I agree that there was a lot of what you mention--giving some things to some people, other things to other people (as when he directed Mr. Hartman to Mr. Buot for further evolution of his skills)--but based on my experience I'd agree that there wasn't and isn't a staff in Modern Arnis. In the Professor, yes, but he also showed us jujitsu/judo techniques that didn't seem to be part of the art from time to time, and I remember him showing Mr. Hartman and me a pressure point knockout from wristlock that didn't appear to be part of the "official" art.

The bigger issue here is, Is Modern Arnis an art that is defined by a specific collection of techniques--a curriculum--or is it something more? To the extent that it's the Professor's approach and principles, I always saw the emphasis on "it's all the same" (empty hand, stick, knife) meaning that focusing on the specific weapon is misleading.

My experience was that the art trained people in empty hand, single and double stick/sword, knife, and knife and stick/sword. I would be inclined to say that anything else was an "extra". But I think you're quite right that we all so only a slice of the art, and I do not believe that the art was static.



It does get confusing and even more so now with the tragic loss of The Professor.

Yes, agreed. I wish he had clearly indicated a successor years before and passed his whole system and philosophy to that person. The closest to this is probably Mr. Delaney, who traveled with him at the end and, according to his articles in the martial arts magazines, attempted to get this kind of information from the Professor.




but Professor was clear on this issue that he wanted the Filipino People to control the Destiny of Modern Arnis.

I see it slightly differently. I believe that he always wanted to have a Filipino lead his art--hence the datu title for Mr. Jornales, for example, which was presumably part of an attempt to lead him into a leadership role within the art--and I know that he had asked Mr. Hartman to help train his children from his second wife as he wanted them to know the art. He wanted a Filipino or person of Filipino descent at the helm. But I also believe that his illness forced him to make a choice and that he made a choice from among those available to him. That choice was the MOTTs as his successors, with Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney in the lead and the other five MOTTs backing them up. I feel he was clear that this was the choice he had made, but I agree that he would have liked it another way. He had less time than he had hoped.

[Keil Randor]

Pappy Geo
I was not questioning his service record, nor any one elses qualifications. Just the attitude. Didn't seem very friendly, more like spoiling for a fight. Things are calmer now, so lets all let it all be.

-Keil -

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

I haven't viewed the posts in several days, and I'm just catching up on my reading. Something that was posted on "Who's Who in Modern Arnis" caught my eye.

Progressive wrote:
Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America.

Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago.

When did Professor Presas state that Datu Worden was the #1 Datu in America? 13 years ago when he was promoted?

This information conflicts with statements that Professor Presas made in front of the entire 2000 Michigan Summer Camp. Datu Hartman tested for his 6th degree black belt at that camp. The end of the camp, Professor Presas awarded Datu Hartman the title of Datu and stated that his 6th degree black belt was the highest tested black belt in seventeen years. Professor also stated that Datu Hartman was his top ranked in the United States.
There are several members of this forum that were there at the time, in addition to myself, that can verify these facts.

Arnis Princess

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
When did Professor Presas state that Datu Worden was the #1 Datu in America? 13 years ago when he was promoted?

I believe the one interview was as I stated above, June 21, 2001.


This information conflicts with statements that Professor Presas made in front of the entire 2000 Michigan Summer Camp. Datu Hartman tested for his 6th degree black belt at that camp. The end of the camp, Professor Presas awarded Datu Hartman the title of Datu and stated that his 6th degree black belt was the highest tested black belt in seventeen years. Professor also stated that Datu Hartman was his top ranked in the United States.

I think you are confusing two different issues. The issue is Datu and not belt rank.

Datu Hartman himself stated earlier in this thread or the other that the Title of Datu and belt rank do not necessarily go hand in hand.

But, what matters to me most is waiting for the tapes. I did hear some already which I posted earlier and that's about it for now.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
I didn't realize the Professor did an interview this late into his illness. This will be a treasure.

I agree and I have heard an excerpt and he was amazingly clear and of sound mind. It was startling to hear actually...his Will and his Spirit, along with Modern Medicine may not have been enough to win the war in the end [we all have that coming] but he sure won some battles before that. I'm serious, you are going to be amazed. It is Datu Worden's wish that this be placed on the Internet in some audio format as I stated before. Then everyone will be able to hear this amazing man.

The speech had slowed a bit, but he was not only lucid, he was sharp.



...or that--as happened so often--the Professor changed his notion of what exactly was included in Modern Arnis as time went on. I agree that there was a lot of what you mention--giving some things to some people, other things to other people (as when he directed Mr. Hartman to Mr. Buot for further evolution of his skills)--but based on my experience I'd agree that there wasn't and isn't a staff in Modern Arnis. In the Professor, yes, but he also showed us jujitsu/judo techniques that didn't seem to be part of the art from time to time, and I remember him showing Mr. Hartman and me a pressure point knockout from wristlock that didn't appear to be part of the "official" art.

I think you hit upon something that perhaps Professor Presas not only passed on to Datu Worden, but admired on a technical and practical level, and that was the phrase that has popped up many times. Connecting The Systems. After years of these things and a rather close association with Professor Jay and Sensei Dillman, perhaps The Professor was simply letting people know, "See, this is already in here and it is hardwired in here, all you need is this extra little bit of knowledge and you can do this, it's built in."

I'm going to say something and I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, it's not said out of disrespect or anything. American Teachers have a tendency to break things down into tiny little bits. I have seen it time and time again, Filipino, Japanese and Chinese Instructors alot of the time...do not. I guess they [rightly] consider alot of that homework and something that should become self-evident.

That is actually not disrespectful of Filipino or Asian Instructors, but of American Instructors. Especially in these Arts where so much really is self-expression and exploration. You have to break out of a mold and be your own person.

As for the staff, indeed it is a separate thing all on its own, Professor may or may not have intended it.


The bigger issue here is, Is Modern Arnis an art that is defined by a specific collection of techniques--a curriculum--or is it something more? To the extent that it's the Professor's approach and principles, I always saw the emphasis on "it's all the same" (empty hand, stick, knife) meaning that focusing on the specific weapon is misleading.

I think it is both. I think you use the curriculum as a vehicle to attain the "something more" you spoke of.

[Mao]

My wife and I were with the Professor 3-4 days before his passing and I can also attest to his clear, sharp mind up to then. He was not physically able to do much and the last day that we were there was quite rough but up to then he was pretty clear headed. I was fortunate enough this evening to hear a little of the interview that Kelly Worden did with Remy in his last days. It brought tears to my eyes hearing his voice again. I also did a brief interview with the Professor that last time he was here and I am very glad that I have this tape. I look forward to hearing more of Kellys interview.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Mao
I was fortunate enough this evening to hear a little of the interview that Kelly Worden did with Remy in his last days.

Mao,

Which part of the Interview did you hear, specifically?

Thanks,

Don

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
I also did a brief interview with the Professor that last time he was here and I am very glad that I have this tape.

Is it something you can share with us or was it perhaps personal? I certainly understand if it wasn't intended to be made public but otherwise it'd be nice to hear it!

[Mao]

Don Rearic,
Is that Don as in "The Don", you know, like connected? :D
What I heard was a portion of the whole "Datu" question. Who is, what does the term mean for our purposes. Roland Dantes was also there adding some cultural background to the definition.
Remy sounded quite clear although perhaps a bit tired in parts.

Arnisador, it was an interview that I was going to use to write an article that never got written. He was at my home shmoozing my wife and daughters. He was pretty good at that. He was relaxed and having a nice time. I just asked him a few questions about coming to the U.S.. He went into the story of when his life was threatened and he was flying out of the Philipines and what that flight was like.

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Mao
Don Rearic,

Is that Don as in "The Don", you know, like connected? :D

I'm The Fixer. The Cooler... :nuke:

[Raspy Voice:] "Igonnamakeahyou ah offer youah cannot refuse..." :D

[zenman]

Other than the friend's Datu Worden has in JKD he has also participated in the JKD Nucleus, I believe at the time he participated he was the only non-JKD person to do so up to that point. Maybe Don or Geo can clarify this as to dates.

[monkey]

From what I remember in the Early days Kelly Wardon helped bring the Proffessor(at that time his title )over here & said to live with Wardon for a while.After a few years the Datu become the rank or title & others sprang from that.Yes Remy did staff - Espsada y daga - Karate based kicks-jujitsu based locks & throws & everntualy hooked up with Wally Jay for small circle jujitsu.Now Wally was trained to Black belt in Danzan ryu in Hawii but this was Aikido as Irabara & Bernie Lau also were there demo.The Question is not if Kelly is skilled & he has great skills-But Ive always asked how can the datu rank be as it is a spiritual leader to some & higher then grandmaster.Dose this give them an art no others have?Remy had many arts as I have stated befor & 1 of which Tapi tapi were Delany seems to be the heir.This was not to be as Randy Shea wanted him for seminar partner Hence assist. grandmaster.I think thats the tile Randy Shea told me.Now there was a Arnis de Tranka system also but those tape were taken off the market & to this day you can get De tranka 13-15 I beleave are the numbers from Delanay.1 or 2 of which are McMannis female based.Delanay promoted her to Proffesor.I dont know if she still holds it.I do have the 1-12 set I beleave the numbers to be of Arnis De tranka.I havent seen for a while so Im not sure on the numbers.

[Rich Parsons]

From what I remember in the Early days Kelly Wardon helped bring the Proffessor(at that time his title )over here & said to live with Wardon for a while.After a few years the Datu become the rank or title & others sprang from that.Yes Remy did staff - Espsada y daga - Karate based kicks-jujitsu based locks & throws & everntualy hooked up with Wally Jay for small circle jujitsu.Now Wally was trained to Black belt in Danzan ryu in Hawii but this was Aikido as Irabara & Bernie Lau also were there demo.The Question is not if Kelly is skilled & he has great skills-But Ive always asked how can the datu rank be as it is a spiritual leader to some & higher then grandmaster.Dose this give them an art no others have?Remy had many arts as I have stated befor & 1 of which Tapi tapi were Delany seems to be the heir.This was not to be as Randy Shea wanted him for seminar partner Hence assist. grandmaster.I think thats the tile Randy Shea told me.Now there was a Arnis de Tranka system also but those tape were taken off the market & to this day you can get De tranka 13-15 I beleave are the numbers from Delanay.1 or 2 of which are McMannis female based.Delanay promoted her to Proffesor.I dont know if she still holds it.I do have the 1-12 set I beleave the numbers to be of Arnis De tranka.I havent seen for a while so Im not sure on the numbers.


Gee, I thought he came over for the State of California on a $160,000 Grant to teach police officers.

I also thought he started working with Shishir the FIRST Datu. I believe that Datu Kelly Worden was not into Modern Arnis until about 83. I could be wrong on that plus or minus a year and I apologize as I am not trying nail down Kelly's facts here, but to prove that Tom does not have all the answers. I openly admit when I am unsure, or when I have to verify with others, but I do not try to convince people that I am the only historian of a said art and that my version of the truth is the only one.

[Blotan Hunka]

Why did Kelly end his radio show?

[Rich Parsons]

Why did Kelly end his radio show?

Good Question - You might want to start a new thread on that question to maybe get more of a chance of someone who knows to see and answer. :)

[themartiala]

Note: Let me state that I am not Politically Correct and if your feelings are easily hurt I suggest that you go on to the next “Vanilla” post and read no further…I hope that I am not banned for speaking out on this or physically threatened ; )

I would like to wade in on the matter of who’s who in Modern Arnis. I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player, but I do have over 24 years of martial arts experience and have trained with several of the Masters in the Philippines in four different styles. I have also studied JKD, American Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, etc. etc. Just so that you know I have some knowledge base to speak from: I was the Chief Combatives Instructor for USASFDK (Korean Special Forces), Martial Arts Coordinator for 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Lewis, Washington and am currently the Bakbakan International representative for Washington State and owner of Progressive Martial Arts Inc. But, enough about me, if that’s not good enough for you; you don’t want to hear what I have to say anyway. See the note above.

As I said, I do not consider myself a Modern Arnis player (since I have just been studying for the past year), but I just have to wade in on the political garbage that I have read on this site. There are pretenders to the crown that would not be running their mouths if the Professor was still alive.

I have seen a question and answer session about Datu Kelly Worden. It was disingenuous to say the least! Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago. His ability to conceptualize, connect the systems, and his innovations “within” Modern Arnis led Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America. If you ask Datu Worden he will tell you that he is #2, and that Datu Shishir Inocallo (being elevated before him) is #1 in the hierarchy.

I have also seen posts that Datu Worden’s style is something other than Modern Arnis. I can assure you that Datu Worden is, to his soul, a Modern Arnis practitioner and gives all the credit to Professor Presas for his exceptional abilities. At a benefit seminar for Professor Presas last year Worden told the attendees that he believed that the system should pass to Professor’s sons and that they had his total support. I have never heard Datu Worden speak of his “niche” in Modern Arnis, just the welfare of the art as a whole and Professors legacy in the continuation of the art. Believe me if you want to hear of Datu Worden’s accomplishments you have to ask one of his students. You won’t ever hear him bragging about himself or spreading the news about his many awards or honors.

I saw two Masters of Filipino Martial Arts, Roland Dantes and Christopher Ricketts; publicly acknowledge the skill and innovation that Datu Worden brings to Modern Arnis.

Professor Presas drew from all and gave to all. That’s what is special about Modern Arnis! I have seen a wide variety of styles, variations on techniques, and even subtle differences in anyos. Modern Arnis is, as another post said, what professor said it was!

Someone made mention of a possible taping of the anyos for Modern Arnis Practioners. Datu Worden has already done this. He has 25 videotapes that are currently published along with one that was co-produced with Master Roland Dantes. He has developed and patented the Impact Kerambit and no less than six companies currently carry his knife designs.

He is the chief instructor for 1st Special Forces Group and has been selected to produce a Combatives Manual, which will be the base document for Martial Arts Training for all U.S. Army Special Operations Forces. When you talk of contributions to Modern Arnis, or who is and who isn’t a Modern Arnis practitioner, I would suggest that you do a little homework before you make your announcements. His contributions to the art with the introduction of anyos for the staff, interpretation of those forms and application of the techniques were enough to cement his standing in Modern Arnis. Does that sound like Datu Worden wasn’t being Active? You be the judge…

Good evening, I really get a lot from these forums. Good reading