Question about "real" fights

[7starmantis]

On a message board I admin for my Kung Fu association, we started getting into the ground fighting discussion. I personally believe it is not wise to intentionally take a fight to the ground in a true self defense situation where you don't know if others will join in or you are on horrible terain. I am interested in hearing opinions on this though, as several of my kung fu brothers and sisters feel differently. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn and practice ground techniques in case you find yourself there, but why take a fight to the ground where there is a greater margin for error and injury to both of the fighters, in a real situation?



7sm

[SteelShadow]

In my oppion i agree with you.altho grappling is good to learn in case you do end up on the ground i wouldnt intentionaly take a fight to the ground unless I had to.Because you never know when someone else will get involved.And the best of grapplers would have a hard time defending against another attacker while they were tied up with one on the ground.Its good to learn grappling but in a situation where there is more than one attacker it can also be a major disadvantage to be on the ground.

[TkdWarrior]

bad case scenario: u r on ground
worse case scenario: u started grappling
worst case scenario : u don't know crap about it

it's better to prepare for all 3 scenario's...
if u r on street u shouldnt go to ground...i dunno where i read but even gracies talked about avoiding ground in street...
to me there r some things which should be taken in consideration.
1. Street r damn tough, u'll even get hurt even while doing break falls chances r that u dont get hurt while on ground is Minimum.
2. ur oppnt can hav weapon
3. ur oppnt hav freind/help waiting/or coming
4. street fight should not last more than couple of seconds(forget honour crap n fight downrite dirty) if it is then most probably u hav screwed up something...
5. all fair in luv n war ;)...
6. make sure u remember all above five...

-TkdWarrior-

[SMAC]

If you know somebody who is a good grappler, have a grapple with them. They should whoop you under their rules. Now learn, the basic positions(guard,mount,side-mount etc) and some basic defences/attacks from them.
Many of the same principles apply on the ground. One of the reasons why the grapplers have an advantage in UFC is there are no groin strikes, gauging,biting etc. However in a street fight these are your friends, not arm-bars or leg locks whilst your opponents mate is kicking your head in.
The value of basic ground work for the striker is orientation. Then you can defend, counter and get back to your feet if possible.

[7starmantis]

I agree you should know how to at the very least disable and get back up from a ground fight, but to force a fight to go to the ground is basically insuring your injury, in my mind.

7sm

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
"I agree you should know how to at the very least disable and get back up from a ground fight...."

-7sm

I agree with you on this 7sm. If I'm taken down, my goal is to get back to my feet so I can finish my opponent off and/or escape.

Peace & blessings,

[Mickey]

I once had to fight 4 guys. IT was hard to stay up and when they tackled me to the ground I got kicked and hit more often then when I was standing.

Mick

[bob919]

even when you are alot stronger if you go to ground when there is more than 1 attacker because its almost impossible to keep more than one opponent on the ground therefore atlesat 1 opponent will be standing. while standing a person can do alot of damage to someone on the ground(even one kick from an untrained individual can break ribs) not to mention dropping their whole body weight on you Via a knee or an elbow.

even going to ground with one opponet is not a good idea unless you are a very accomlished grappler

i wouldn't even though i am almost 250lbs

[Nyoongar]

Gappling isn't all on the ground.

If you can throw them to the ground then you can kick them in the head!

But I definitely wouldn't go flopping to guard on the street, that's madness.

[Mon Mon]

:D

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
On a message board I admin for my Kung Fu association, we started getting into the ground fighting discussion. I personally believe it is not wise to intentionally take a fight to the ground in a true self defense situation where you don't know if others will join in or you are on horrible terain. I am interested in hearing opinions on this though, as several of my kung fu brothers and sisters feel differently. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn and practice ground techniques in case you find yourself there, but why take a fight to the ground where there is a greater margin for error and injury to both of the fighters, in a real situation?



7sm

Man I unintentionally went to the ground when I was set on by five guys and that was it. I was rendered unconscious and a bloody mess. Not a wise place to try and stay during a fight. It would be interesting to see if the Gracies would take a fight to the ground in a carpark or bar.

Cheers
Sammy

[KennethKu]

If you are a truly effective striker then you do not need to grapple. Grapplers know that most strikers cannot KO people with one strike, so they will just eat the few strikes and come in for you. So condition you fists and elbows and kicks !

[H@pkid0ist]

Going to the ground may be fine if the situation is one on one, and there is no chance of others getting involved. Also, if there is nothing on the ground or the possibility of anything falling to the ground that can cause you harm,ie rocks, glass. I hanve seen many ground fights, and those that stay on the ground for any length of time, someone usually ends up getting kicked pretty bad. We teach in the way of ground fighting how to hurt the opponent and get up as quick as possible, dealing with ground techniques and countering them to regain control quickly.

[ace]

Travel With Friends Ever???????
------------------------------------------
I hear alot of people say they
are afraid to go to the ground
because of others joining in???

__________________________________

Are U saying if U took the fight to the ground
And the oponent's friends jumped in
Your friends would let Uuuuuuu take a but kicken????

i trust my friends would not.
----------------------------------------

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace
Travel With Friends Ever???????
------------------------------------------
I hear alot of people say they
are afraid to go to the ground
because of others joining in???

__________________________________

Are U saying if U took the fight to the ground
And the oponent's friends jumped in
Your friends would let Uuuuuuu take a but kicken????

i trust my friends would not.
----------------------------------------

Well now we are getting into gang situation. I'm not talking about that, most true self defense situations are when you are alone, or seem to be alone at least. I don't "trust" anyone to protect me, thats why I know how to protect myself. What if your "friends" were no match for the other guys friends? Thne you and your "crew" get their buts whipped.
What I'm saying is in a situation where you are defending your life, it would not be smart, even in a one on one situation to take the fight to the ground because of the large margin for injury. I'm not attacking your precious grappling, I'm just saying its not a wise move ina a situation where you are defending your life.

7sm

[ace]

& if your friends are geting there buts kicked so would U.
__________________________________________________ __--

Grappling has it's place & like it or not most
Fights do end up in the clinch.
___________________________------------

By the way did u Ever star Your School??????
____________________________-------------------

Also please don't mis con screw my words
Thank U:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace
& if your friends are geting there buts kicked so would U.
__________________________________________________ __--

Grappling has it's place & like it or not most
Fights do end up in the clinch.
___________________________------------

By the way did u Ever star Your School??????
____________________________-------------------

Also please don't mis con screw my words
Thank U:asian:

1. I didn't say you said anything about a gang, I made the determination that it was a gang. What else do you call a group of people fighting another group of people?

& if your friends are geting there buts kicked so would U. How is that a true statement? I am only able to achieve the level of my friends? What I originally said was that I'm not even talking about this type of situation.

Grappling has it's place & like it or not most Fights do end up in the clinch. Lets go back to my last post, I didn't say grappling didn't have its place, I believe it does. Thats the reason I study Chin Na so intensly. I don't know what you mean by the fight ending up in the clinch, I can only assume you mean on the ground in a submission type situation. That is entirely wrong. You can say YOUR fights end up there, but to say most fights do is unrealistic. In the true self defense situations I have been in, my goal was to end the confrontation as quickly as possible, including crippling or killing. See, I'm not talking about a grudge match, or fighting your buddy, I'm talking about a situation where you are fighting for your life. My goal is to end the situation in as few moves as possible. That lowers the margin for injury to myself.

By the way did u Ever star Your School??????
No, I'm not starting my own school for quite sometime, I was just asking some opinions for when I do decide to branch on my own. Thanks for asking though.

Also please don't mis con screw my words
um, I don't believe I have "mis con screwed" your words at all. I simply responded to your post. If I have "mis con screwed" your words I am terribly sorry.

7sm

[ace]

A clinch is When 2 people fighting end up in a hug
it is very comon in Boxing & kick boxing
When one fighter hits the other
he grabs them & stops the hiting
untill the ref re-starts them.

_________________________--------------

And Good Luck with The Scool When
U do start it

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace
A clinch is When 2 people fighting end up in a hug
it is very comon in Boxing & kick boxing
When one fighter hits the other
he grabs them & stops the hiting
untill the ref re-starts them.


You really believe that most self defense situations end up in that type of situation? That would be to ths disadvantage of both parties in a self defense situation. See, there is no ref in a self defense situation.

7sm

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace
And Good Luck with The Scool When
U do start it

Thank you very much. :asian:

[ace]

Know the clinch is not en end in it's self
it is the start of Grappling

Mauy Thai fighters will use it to control
the head & use it to strike with elbows & knees

Ju Jitsuka & Wrestlers will use it to take the fight
to the floor.

____________________-----------------------------

The point i was making with the clinch
is that if pro fighters can not stop it from hapaning
then an ameture (not U personaly) has less of a chance.
_________________________________________--------------
And acording to P.D. Records most Fights enter into
a clinch 7 hit the floor before the fight is over.
_____________________________________-------------

And U are Welcome Every Martial Artist
Should have the Rite to Teach
& Start there own Dojo:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by ace
And acording to P.D. Records most Fights enter into
a clinch 7 hit the floor before the fight is over.

Got a link? Can you post a jpg of said report? Anything?

[ace]

How Ever i can get u contacted with N.Y.P.D in Water
Town (315) 786-2601
Ask for Deputy Victor Rodriguez
He can answer your Question

Tell him his Cuzin Primo said Hi
& no im not in trouble:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace
Know the clinch is not en end in it's self
it is the start of Grappling

Mauy Thai fighters will use it to control
the head & use it to strike with elbows & knees

Ju Jitsuka & Wrestlers will use it to take the fight
to the floor.

I see what it is used for, but outside of the ring, that is not a wise move. Locking up someone can work, but I wouldn't advise it on a mantis person, or someone who works heavy "grappling" or Chin Na. Not in a situation where there are no techniques that are pulled or "ruled out". It is almost a sure injury.


The point i was making with the clinch
is that if pro fighters can not stop it from hapaning
then an ameture (not U personaly) has less of a chance.

The problem with that is that a professional boxer or ring fighter is not trying to dislocate or break the arm that grabs him. There is a difference in intentions between the two types of fighting we are talking about.



And acording to P.D. Records most Fights enter into
a clinch 7 hit the floor before the fight is over.

Again, these are PD reports, every conflict a police officer gets into is aimed at the ground, thats where they are supposed to go so they can handcuff them. Thats not an acurate statistic for self defense situations.

[ace]

Not Just Arest made by Police

[H@pkid0ist]

Let me jump back into this real quick. I'm not going to make any blanket statements here, like 90% of all YADDA YADDA. From the fights that I have seen only about a third go to the ground. Usually that is the looser bum rushing the winner. When the fighters have been experianced the fights did not go to the ground, at least not untill the looser hit it alone. The fights that have went to the ground have been inexperienced and or drunk fighters. All the fights that i have been in have been settled and prevented from going to the ground. Even when I fought groundfighters. The only time anyone went to the ground is when I threw them there.

[ace]

Yadaa Yadaa
LoL

[SteelShadow]

The best way to win a fight is to avoid them.But if you do have to fight only go to the ground when you have no choice.Being knocked down pulled down ect.But in my experince if you do get on the ground try to get back on your feet as soon as possible.You have alot less defense on the ground than you do while standing.Espeacily if there is more than one attacker.
And as far as law enforcement being driven toward taking it to the ground that is a True and False statement. Im not a cop but i was a bailenforcement agent,And i am still liscenced as such Also i did priavet investigating and Security manager for Kmart inc.The law enforcement agencies are taught to get the bad guy on the ground without them being taken down themselves.
Giving themselves the biggest advantage as well as the most leverage to subdue a person.......Just my experinces.

[Kirk]

Where I live, boxing is HUGE. That may be why, but all fights that
I have seen, with the exception of my own, NEVER went to the
ground. Most were school yard fights, and bar fights, but I have
seen quite a few.

[Lawman9]

As police we are trained to take suspects to the ground to handcuff them. I don't always agree with that, alot of officers and suspects get hurt because they don't know how to land on the ground. If it's a large riot situation you DEFINATELY don't want to trip or fall to the ground.
Most fights that I've seen started when suspects tried to tackle the officer to the ground. They try to wrap the officer up and force him to the ground and hopefully get his weapon or knock him unconscious.
After knowing all of that, most police departments have JUST started teaching ground fighting techniques in the past 2 or 3 years.
In a self defense situation I don't think the ground is good unless you plan on restraining someone. You need to be able to leave the situation at your first opportunity, and that's hard to do on the ground.

[KennethKu]

COPS tend to have backup. Going to ground is safer when you outnumber the creeps.

[Lawman9]

I wish that was always true. Sometimes it can take a few minutes to get back up there.

[GouRonin]

First of all I agree with Primo/Ace somewhat. Any Bar fight usually ends up in a clinch with 2 guys holding each other to stop the other from doing anything if they can. Otherwise it ends up with one guy going down after the punch up or both going down in a grapple. Of course that's just one specific arena where fights happen and they tend to follow a specific course.

As far as cops go, well, they don't want to be on the ground with a guy ever as far as I can tell. I used to belong to a judo club run by a cop and he had a few friends come out and they wanted to learn how to control a guy into a throw or to put him down. A few cops show up at the submission fighting club and they like to throw you down using brute force but it's fun to take them down with you into territory they don't like to be in and see the look on their face when they realize that they might be in trouble just as you lock a nice choke in.

A lot of cops have no idea how to breakfall either. A lot of them don't bother to learn skills that will help them. In fact, once I helped put together a police knife tactics seminar in town by a reputable guy and I gave the cops a 50% discount and none showed up. Most are to damn lazy to learn something that might benefit them because they believe that what they get taught in police school is all they'll need. The guys you see out doing Judo and other arts are the ones who know that the stuff they are learning will come in handy.

[Lawman9]

Originally posted by GouRonin
First of all I agree with Primo/Ace somewhat. Any Bar fight usually ends up in a clinch with 2 guys holding each other to stop the other from doing anything if they can. Otherwise it ends up with one guy going down after the punch up or both going down in a grapple. Of course that's just one specific arena where fights happen and they tend to follow a specific course.

As far as cops go, well, they don't want to be on the ground with a guy ever as far as I can tell. I used to belong to a judo club run by a cop and he had a few friends come out and they wanted to learn how to control a guy into a throw or to put him down. A few cops show up at the submission fighting club and they like to throw you down using brute force but it's fun to take them down with you into territory they don't like to be in and see the look on their face when they realize that they might be in trouble just as you lock a nice choke in.

A lot of cops have no idea how to breakfall either. A lot of them don't bother to learn skills that will help them. In fact, once I helped put together a police knife tactics seminar in town by a reputable guy and I gave the cops a 50% discount and none showed up. Most are to damn lazy to learn something that might benefit them because they believe that what they get taught in police school is all they'll need. The guys you see out doing Judo and other arts are the ones who know that the stuff they are learning will come in handy.


I couldn't have said it better myself. All of my co-workers want to learn more about firearms that anything else. That doesn't do them alot of good when they get their lunch eaten in a ground fight. I even offer dirt cheap rates but I still only have 4 cops students out of a 500 man department. They say that they are too busy to go to classes. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him learn any kata's.