Rank

[Kirk]

How does the rank structure work, from beginner to highest of
highs? What is a "Datu", and what's the pronunciation?

[Wingman]

Originally, a "Datu" is the village headman or the leader of a tribe. I don't know what a "datu" means in the context of FMA.

[Bob Hubbard]

In Modern Arnis, there are 6 Datus, each selected by Remy Presas. Other FMA may also use the title, however I'm not aware of any that do. There is controvercy over the title (which is outside of rank) being used by non-filipinos. There were several exchanges in the past here, on RMA, and in ED about it.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the most common title would be Guro. I'll let those in the know give a better description of FMA titles, ranks, and who uses what. :)

[dearnis.com]

Every art seems to have a slightly different structure (hard to believe, I know).
Guro is fairly generic for teacher; Punong Guro, Datu, Tuhon, and others appear at the high end of things.
The beauty of the Filipino arts is that no one loses sleep over it.

[bart]

Hey There,

Rank in FMA depends on the system. Some systems don't have rank and even in ones that do, some teachers give rank out at different and unpredictable times. FMA in my opinion is more about skill versus others and knowledge of the curriculum than it is about rank. It's my understanding that rank came to the systems mostly in the period between the 1950's and 1970's. Before that and even during that, standing was based on challenge matches. But nonetheless in modern times, it really depends on the system being studied (Doce Pares, Modern Arnis, Kabaroan, etc.). Also some systems view the red belt as higher than the black belt.

This is a quote from my old high school Philippine History and Gov't Book:


Ancient Filipino society was divided into three social classes. These were the nobles or maharlika, freemen or timawa and the slaves or alipin. The datu (chief), his family, relatives and elders belonged to the maharlika group.
...
The political unit in ancient times was the barangay , a settlement of 30 to 100 families. The head was called datu and he exercised all powers of government - executive, legislative and judicial. He made laws, enforced them and judged all cases and trials brought by villagers. A person could become datu through inheritance, wealth, wisdom, or bravery.


The pronunciation of Datu goes like this: it has a long "a" like in Spanish and the "u" is pronounced without a "y" sound. The emphasis is on the first syllable. It's something like "DAAAH 2". Please excuse my poor phoenetic skills. I hope that helps.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by bart
Hey There,

Rank in FMA depends on the system. Some systems don't have rank and even in ones that do, some teachers give rank out at different and unpredictable times. FMA in my opinion is more about skill versus others and knowledge of the curriculum than it is about rank. It's my understanding that rank came to the systems mostly in the period between the 1950's and 1970's. Before that and even during that, standing was based on challenge matches. But nonetheless in modern times, it really depends on the system being studied (Doce Pares, Modern Arnis, Kabaroan, etc.). Also some systems view the red belt as higher than the black belt.


The pronunciation of Datu goes like this: it has a long "a" like in Spanish and the "u" is pronounced without a "y" sound. The emphasis is on the first syllable. It's something like "DAAAH 2". Please excuse my poor phoenetic skills. I hope that helps.

It helps big time, thanks. Damned interesting! I guess the next
question would be, if there's no ranks how does one measure
another's progress in a modern FMA school? How does one
know when he's ready to start teaching, or possibly open his
own school?

[dearnis.com]

Kirk;
That is probably the easier question.
For measuring progress, imagine a karate school. Now imagine everyone doing the same drill or exercise. Oh yeah, wait, dress them all in sweats, no belts!
You might not pick exact ranks, but you would have a decent idea of who was where. (Kind of like the "beginner" who comes to class and neglects to mention a black belt in some other art; the training shows through).
As to teaching....
Either your teacher tells you, or you find yourself in a situation where you have to teach in order to have a training partner. )
Chad

[Bob Hubbard]

Saw this there, and thought it would fit in here too.

From WMAC forum:

Datu Halford Jones:

The term DATU and the Arnis Lanada Ranking System

Some persons have made mention of my rank of DATU so I should like to clarify a few points, if I may. First, the term DATU means Warrior Chieftain generally, and,in a certain sense, is a political term. It is associated with the Islamic groups of the Philippines and also Malaysia,etc. The rank of Datu was awarded to,conferred on, and given to me by GREAT-GRANDMASTER PORFERIO S. LANADA. This does not in any way make the rank I hold the equivalent of the rank of Datu in Modern Arnis.In fact, the Arnis Lanada rank of DATU is not the highest by any means. The highest is Sultan, the next highest is Raja or Raha, and the next highest is Raha Muda(Half-rajah). The lowest rank in Arnis Lanada is Hadji. Another is caddi or kaddy. The next is Micca. There are other grades or ranks as well but this is enough to give some idea of this. Having these ranks, however, does not make one an instructor or teacher, per se, nor a representative or commissioner,etc. unless other accompanying certificates,etc. are there. The ranking system of Arnis Lanada,in all likelihood, comes from the Masonic system(which I came across once but can't locate again for some reason) that probably influenced the Kaptipunan. The terms are Arabic, of course.

[Kirk]

Okay, so if you were to meet someone in your travels that studies
the same FMA art that you do ... how can you inform him or her
about your skill level, and how long you've been training?

[Bob Hubbard]

Start banging sticks.... :D

[arnisador]

Really, that's what we say--"Let's bang sticks!" It's a different culture.

Ranking is very different in the FMA, if done at all. (Though not in Modern Arnis, mind you, where it's like in most other arts.) In FMA skill is determined by seeing who gets the upper hand when the sticks hit.

[Kirk]

So Modern Arnis has belt ranks? Up to what degree? Are there
time in grade requirements before promotions?

[arnisador]

Yes, Modern Arnis has a fairly traditional ranking system. It now varies from organization to organization but roughly speaking it's the usual 10 underbelts counting from 10 up to 1 then 10 black belt ranks from 1 to 10. There's also a 0th degree black belt which is not transitional--it's just another black belt. See for example the WMAA ranking system (http://www.wmarnis.com/curriculum.html) (which has done away with the 0th degree black belt; note, Lakan is male, Dayang is female).

There are indeed time-in-grade requirements in Modern Arnis; they're in the same general range as other arts, perhaps slightly shorter at some points. There are also titles in addition to, and in some sense above and beyond, rank, e.g. Datu and Master of Tapi-Tapi.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Start banging sticks.... :D


Kaith,

"Let's Bang Sticks!"

I agree with you on this. Maybe next time we can bang some sticks :~)

Rich
:rofl:

[Master of Blades]

The Inosanto Lacoste system that I study doesnt have belts as such, but just to show rank my class does use belts going from white to green to blue to red to black. I recently went to a Bob Breen seminar who is one of Dan Inosanto's top students and instead of belts all his regulars had t-shirts with there ranking colour on them. I found that very cool. But when you meet another FMA person you usually just go through the drills to find out how good they are :D

[Kirk]

What is a "Tuhon" ?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk
What is a "Tuhon" ?


Any Pekiti Tersia people out there?


I think it is equivalent to master.

Tuhon Bill McGrath

Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje

Just a thought from my observation.

I would like to here a confirmation or denial.

Good Question Kirk

Rich
:)

[Kirk]

I spoke to Zach Whitson today, he said literally Tuhon means
"Old Man" .. it's the equivalent of a Master of the Art.

[lhommedieu]

See http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/rankchart.htm for Pekiti's ranking system. A "MATAÃS NA GURO is a master instructor with at least nine years of experience; a MAGINO’O GURO is an "elder instructor" with at least 15 years in the system, who has promoted at least one matass na guro. The Tuhon Guro is the head or leader of the system.

Tuhon William (Billy) McGrath heads Pekiti Tirsia International.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[arnisador]

What is the literal translation of YAKAN?

[Cthulhu]

Our club doesn't use ranks, but if we did, I believe my rank would be 'Whipping Boy', or maybe, 'One in Constant Agony'.

Cthulhu

[moromoro]

this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE ***** CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by moromoro
this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE ***** CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry


Terry,

I understand your point, yet, many of the other arts started with no belts or belt system and has adopted them. Even those that are considered traditional arts.

In one art I study there is Rank, in the other the only ranks are Instructor and Student.

I do not think it is right to condemn the students if the only system they have exposure to is one with ranks.

Maybe you should ask why did the belts arrive in the first place?

Maybe because people were studying for a while picking up a few moves and then going out and saying they were a master. Now if they only use theri own name this might be fine, yet if they use the Instructors name or system then now he looks bad. Maybe the ranks were created to show a record of improvement to avoid this type of issue?

Or Maybe someone just thought they could market it and make money just like everyone else and charge for rank and tests.

Many things could have caused this belt ranking to merge with the FMA's, including how the Japanese and Korean Arts are / were so popular in the large cities. (* Note this does not take away from the vast amounts of knowledge from the old Manong's who taught privately or . . . *)


So, just because somethign differs from your art or background, does not mean it is bad just different. It could be either good or bad.

You say Lakan means Level, what does Dayang mean?

:asian:

[bart]

HOW THE ***** CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA

Interestingly vehement....


Rank is not such a bad thing. One good thing about ranking systems is that the curriculum is broken down into small, digestable, masterable pieces so as to facilitate learning. Another is the establishment of several long term and short term goals to produce encourage the student to learn and provide a rewarding experience.

One thing about the Filipino people is that they are very pragmatic and ingenious. Some of the FMA masters saw the value in ranking and brought it into their systems for those reasons and others as well. There is of course the chance for abuse of any system, and sometimes this occurs, but it does not invalidate all rank.

Some teachers may want to keep information away from students and they may use rank to do so. But for the most part, the ranking system allows students to get information when they have learned enough to be ready for it. Many students want to learn too much too fast. They want to get flashy before they get the basics and before they get enough seasoning and conditioning to truly understand what they are learning. Rank when done correctly keeps students within a curriculum and keeps the learning rewarding and enjoyable.



in traditional FMA there is no RANK

Also in traditional Japanese arts there was no rank. The same goes for Chinese and Korean arts as well. But as the arts developed systems of ranks evolved mostly to facilitate learning especially in the West.

It would be wise to note as well that in the past schoolchildren were also given no rank and 5 year olds learned right next to 16 year olds in the same school room. But that proved to be inefficient and grades evolved and were formalized. This facilitated learning and gave the students incentive and reward for passing. This stratification allowed students to learn alongside people who were at the same level. It also allowed teachers to focus their teaching at a level that was conducive to learning within the group being taught.

Rank can and does exist in FMA for the same reasons. It would be wise too to examine your statements and see how much respect they give to FMA masters that created the ranking systems for their arts and value them.

[moromoro]

there are many good point that you guys have raised
rank in my eyes can be seen as an influence by the japanese systems.....which where and still are very popular in the philippines......

it is also and i believe the primary reason for thier use is so a club can go commercial and open its doors to a greater number of students.....
many commercialised grandmasters must have had a hard time teaching to a larger level of students, what would only take them 4-10years or less to teach privately with rank may now take them 20years and theres still no guarantee that the student will reach the highest rank.........
it is important to remember many of the living grandmasters from the philippines today where never ranked,

some still teach in this way...(those of us who are lucky to be students of such teachers are i belive to be very blessed)

while others who are commercial and teach in dojos have had to add a ranking structure...

it is also very important to note that in the past in the philippines there was no rank given in eskrima..............

rank or no ranks the end result is hopefully the same, only one will take much much longer that others


to rich
dayang in maguindanao which is a moro dialect of mindanao means "maiden".......


thanks

terry

terry

[Wingman]

iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level)....

Lakan means "prince" in Tagalog not Level. FYI

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by moromoro
this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE ***** CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry

Belts are seen as goals for students.....it may not be the right reason for training but it works :asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Wingman
Lakan means "prince" in Tagalog not Level. FYI

Wingman I have also seen it translated to Warrior.

Just curious, is it possible that some words just do not translate and others translate based upon the knowledge of the person doing the job?

It is very confusing for us who do not speak the laanguages or dialects of the PI to get a 'True' meaning for anything. So, we listen to our instructors, many of them Filipino and take what they give us and believe them.

Is this bad?

:confused:

[arnisador]

I've also seen--here on MartialTalk, in fact--it translated as simply 'male'.

[Wingman]

Hi Rich,

It is difficult to get the exact translation from one language to another. The same word can have different meanings depending on how it is used. Lakan can also mean "warrior" because a lakan (prince) is the successor of the "datu". In the olden times, the datu is chosen for his courage, bravery and martial skill. Lakans are expected to be brave warriors because they will one day succeed the datu. They are expected to lead the tribe especially in battle. Arnisador is also correct. A lakan (prince) is of course a male.:)