Accepting rank from other organizations

[Kacey]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51537), and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

[searcher]

I would not take it. I have no reason to accept a rank from something I don't know anything about. If I need another certificate I can make up an organization and use a banner program to create my certificates. And the only thing this does is take up more space on my wall, which I happen to like as is.

[Blindside]

The only person who can give me rank is my instructor, or someone who has been on the floor with me for a long time. I've restarted at white belt four times now when I went to learn a new system, that doesn't change just because I now wear a black.

Lamont

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely not and I have no interest in any of the rank organizations out there. (they are all self serving organizations after all and that goes for any Hall of Fame as well)

[terryl965]

Heaven NO if I want the rank I will do the same as before train for thirty years in that particular art and recieve the right way, Blood sweet and pain oh glorious pain.

[Steel Tiger]

I have actually been thinking about this for some time now. Gene LaBell's refusal of numerous gift ranks led me to think this way.

A person who has made great contributions to an art in general should be honoured by that art. In most cases it is done through the gift of rank. It seems quite fair, but there is no way to distinguish this rank from the rank that the same person has worked so diligently for.

Academia awards honourary degrees to people who they feel have contributed to society in some way. Why not use a similar system in MAs? One could then list one's rank and then all then honours one has been given by other schools. The distinction would make it clear that these ranks were not developed through rigorous training, but given as a sign of respect.

Unfortunately it can still be abused, just like any system.

[Tames D]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51537), and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.
I don't think I could look anyone in the eyes if I did that. How do you face the people you suddenly outrank?

[CuongNhuka]

Cuong Nhu has two honery Masters. One of them (Master Cates) helped O'Sensei refine and develop Cuong Nhu. There is even material from his art (Neko Ryu Goshin Jitsu, which he founded) included in Cuong Nhu. On a side note, his wife is a late 6th Dan in Cuong Nhu, and was one of O'Sensei's first students.
The other (Master Buckland) is a body guard, and also helped in later development of Cuong Nhu (mostly weapon defense). Also, when O'Sensei was dieing of Alztiemers, Master Buckland helped nurse him.

Neither of them have a defined rank, but are to be treated as masters in Cuong Nhu. In Situations like these, were the inidivual helped refine the system, I think it is acpetable. Too much else is a little percular.

[elder999]

. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.


Well, in the circumstances outlined it doesn't sound at all like an honorary rank, but a functional one, so the answer is no. If it were designated as an honorary rank and I had some sort of relationship with the system or its heirarchy, I might accept it.

Yes, the action you've described is some sort of violation, in my opinion.

I don't know what I'd do if it was my organization or school-it's never come up, as far as I know.

[mjd]

This stuff happens more frequent than one might think, I would say if you don't do the work and time to earn the rank than it's not worth much.

[Dave Leverich]

I couldn't see taking any rank no. I could see testing in to another organization of the same artform, assuming I passed the same tests that anyone else testing for that rank would pass, and had the time requirements met.

Even so, when you hear of someone who's 5th in X form, 3rd in X, 4th in X etc, then you stop and realize that it wasn't starting from 'start' with each... But then, they are an accomplished martial artist when they start the next art (although many are different orgs of the same art).

[jks9199]

Would I accept rank from someone outside my system? Not if it was supposed to be "real" rank. Would I accept some sort of honorary rank/status? Maybe, so long as it was clearly honorary and not a substitute for real rank. (See below) Would I accept starting in another system at a higher rank than white? It would depend on the reasoning from the instructor.

Rank only has meaning within the context of the organization or association or individuals giving it. Accepting rank from someone outside those channels makes the rank meaningless. (Hall of Fames where you nominate yourself and get listed if you pay the fee are meaningless, too. A meaningful Hall of Fame would have clear criteria for selecting it's members, probably without the prospective members input; think about the Baseball Hall of Fame or Football Hall of Fame. There are rules for how they select members, and none of them involve "did the check clear?")

My association does recognize a few talented and respected individuals as honorary members; they aren't black belts within our system -- but we respect and honor their training and work.

[Steel Tiger]

Rank only has meaning within the context of the organization or association or individuals giving it. Accepting rank from someone outside those channels makes the rank meaningless. (Hall of Fames where you nominate yourself and get listed if you pay the fee are meaningless, too. A meaningful Hall of Fame would have clear criteria for selecting it's members, probably without the prospective members input; think about the Baseball Hall of Fame or Football Hall of Fame. There are rules for how they select members, and none of them involve "did the check clear?")

We all keep saying this, rank has no value outside it organisational context, but constantly we see people listing high ranks in many organisations. There is meaning outside context. It is not a pleasant meaning but it is still there. High rank in multiple organisations means more students (usually kinda gullible, but students just the same) and that means more money.

The vast majority of us here don't seem to do this and would not accept rank they we did not earn, unless perhaps it was clearly honourary, but that does not detract from the fact that the is a monetary value attached to rank. Saddly, what's more, it works.

[tellner]

It depends on who the person is, why he or she is offering the certificate, what if anything is expected in return and how it will make people feel.

If it would make the person feel better to give me a piece of paper or if he or she would feel hurt if I refused I'd take it in the spirit in which it was intended. It wouldn't mean diddly as a martial arts rank. I wouldn't use it for advertising. But I'd appreciate the thought that came with it. People get honorary degrees from real universities all the time. They don't use them to try and get tenure anywhere. They're like large-size attaboys.

Suppose it were a Grand Old Master. He publicly presents me (Lord alone knows why) this beautiful piece of paper at the end of a gathering or important training camp for his style. Refusing it would cause him discomfort and offense. So I'd smile, thank him, and bow politely.

If it were meant to instill a sense of obligation or make other people think I was beholden the person who signed the certificate, then no. It's the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Some years back my teacher was given an (unsolicited) rank certificate by another teacher in the same system. It really didn't mean anything to him. One day out of the blue the guy wrote to him asking for a set of photographs and fingerprints(?!) to register him as an instructor officially under the other guy. My teacher looked at the piece of paper and said "Well, he sent me one. Maybe I should send him one, too. <pause> Nah. I need to have some kind of quality control." He deep-sixed the certificate.

Another thing is how close this system is to what I do and how much of the important curriculum I've got. A lot of martial arts have an awful lot of stuff that is completely redundant or utterly useless in making a person a better fighter according to the standards by which the style judges its practitioners. "He moves like one of us. He fights like one of us and at a high level. He knows the important core of the system and understands its principles and laws. I'd feel comfortable sending my students to him."

Imagine someone is from a closely related school. Some of the peripheral stuff is a little different. They have 27 variations of the Plummeting Butterfly instead of 31. Their Sideways Crab is done without the optional ring finger flourish at the end. And they don't teach Purple Dragon Sings "I Love You. You Love Me." Would that make them far enough from you guys that ranking them in your system would be a travesty?How high is up? How far is far? At what point do you care?

It's pretty obvious that the correct answer from the original post was "No. No. A thousand times no. It would be a travesty and a betrayal." The reality is that it's not necessarily that simple. Much depends on exactly what is being offered by whom, to whom, for what reason and by what standards.

[LawDog]

Tellner,
Great response, you and I are on the same page here.
Kacey,
An excellant thread with many good responses.
Not to long age a few mid level black belts left my Kenpo organization, they said that they wanted to be on their own. I wished them well and we then parted on a friendly basis. A very short time later I was informed that all from this group had received double promotions before they dropped out of my group. The organization that had promoted them is a non Kenpo organization. After a little research I discovered that this same non Kenpo group has promoted many to a senior ranked level.

[MJS]

This kind of builds on bushidomartialarts thread about rank (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51537), and kind of doesn't. If you were contacted by someone who offered you a rank in his/her style because of your contributions to the arts in general, would you take a rank....say 5th dan from a 9th Dan, without a test, without knowing the system, and knowing that you will be now out ranking people who worked many more years to get to their 3rd, 4th and 5th dans? Doesn't this action violate some of the core tenets of the martial arts in general? What would you do, and what if anything would you say or do if this was your organization or school?

I'll post my answer later; I don't want to limit the discussion by posting my answer now.

No, I would not accept rank in a style I knew nothing about. Imagine the look on someones face, if you walked into a school, wearing a 5th degree rank and someone asked you a question on something, only for you to turn around and say that you can't help them! Personally, I'd be embarrassed to be affiliated with a school or organization that did this.

Some people are under this idea that wearing a high rank is going to make people respect them, give them some sort of power, etc. but the reality is, it doesn't, at least from my point of view. Wearing high rank also comes with the task of being able to actually do the material, know the material inside and out and perhaps know a little history, to name a few things. Like I always say, I'm more interested in what I can learn from the person, rather than the belt and how many stripes are on it. 1st dan, 2nd dan or 8th dan...the belt isn't going to teach me, they are. :)

Mike

[IcemanSK]

I have been offered rank in such a situation. I got to know the "#2 man" in a system & he asked me to help teach his students kicking techniques (as his style didn't major on them). In talking with him one night, I mentioned that I wanted to get my 3rd Dan in TKD. He offered a 3rd Dan in his system to me right then. I was flattered, but declined. I then began to earnestly seek out a Taekwondo instructor to continue my TKD studies & rank. This instructor understood & we are still great friends.

I didn't know much about his art & I couldn't take a rank I didn't earn.

[Flying Crane]

I was offered a rank advancement by someone in a similar, but not the same kenpo system as my own. I had never studied under him. I believe the offer was made under good intentions, as a recognition of the years of training I have put in (I was not training under a kenpo instructor at the time), and perhaps to boost my status if I decided to begin teaching. I appreciated the offer, but declined. I just didn't feel right about accepting rank if I had not actually studied under someone, in their system. I am now training under a kenpo teacher in my original system, and any further ranking I receive will be thru him, when/if it becomes appropriate.

[tshadowchaser]

I have known some that have accepted rank from organizations they never trained in but they usualy then joined that organization.
I have know some that have taken this type of rank and still had no knowledge of the martial arts.
Then there are those who have build their whole organization by giveing away rank if the person will wear their patch
For myslef if I do not study an art and have not tested for the rank I want nothing to do with it and will not accept.

[Brandon Fisher]

If you join an organization and after a period of time are offered rank thats different but if someone searches for you and offers it thats a whole other ball game and I would say that is not cool.

[bushidomartialarts]

I wouldn't accept rank in, say, Shotokan. But I've been offered and accepted rank in other Kenpo organizations. Right now, my rank is recognized by five different orgs. It's a way of keeping the peace, showing respect, making friends.

Now, some instructors will get really, really surly if you go and accept rank from another instructor. Personally, I can't get behind that sort of old-school territorialism.

[jks9199]

I wouldn't accept rank in, say, Shotokan. But I've been offered and accepted rank in other Kenpo organizations. Right now, my rank is recognized by five different orgs. It's a way of keeping the peace, showing respect, making friends.

Now, some instructors will get really, really surly if you go and accept rank from another instructor. Personally, I can't get behind that sort of old-school territorialism.
I think that's a different situation. You've got kindred systems or associations recognizing and acknowledging your rank, not someone from a different system entirely deciding you should be Q-level black belt, which is what I read the initial post as asking about.

[Balrog]

I would accept it, but only in an honorary capacity.

When I have students come into my school with prior training in another style, I offer them a choice. They can start over at White Belt or I will evaluate them and they can start at an equivalent rank in our style. They will not promote from that rank, however, until they learn our curriculum from White Belt on up. I do this because they have already put in a lot of "sweat equity", and I think that effort should be acknowledged in some way.

Since I became the chief instructor in 1994, the majority of folks have opted to start over at White Belt and move up through the ranks. They will tend to move a lot faster because of their prior training, and will continue to do so until they hit the level in our style that corresponds to where they were in their old style. At that point, they will slow down and progress at their normal rate.

[Karatedrifter7]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

[MBuzzy]

It depends on who the person is, why he or she is offering the certificate, what if anything is expected in return and how it will make people feel.

If it would make the person feel better to give me a piece of paper or if he or she would feel hurt if I refused I'd take it in the spirit in which it was intended. It wouldn't mean diddly as a martial arts rank. I wouldn't use it for advertising. But I'd appreciate the thought that came with it. People get honorary degrees from real universities all the time. They don't use them to try and get tenure anywhere. They're like large-size attaboys.

Suppose it were a Grand Old Master. He publicly presents me (Lord alone knows why) this beautiful piece of paper at the end of a gathering or important training camp for his style. Refusing it would cause him discomfort and offense. So I'd smile, thank him, and bow politely.




I have been offered rank in such a situation. I got to know the "#2 man" in a system & he asked me to help teach his students kicking techniques (as his style didn't major on them). In talking with him one night, I mentioned that I wanted to get my 3rd Dan in TKD. He offered a 3rd Dan in his system to me right then. I was flattered, but declined. I then began to earnestly seek out a Taekwondo instructor to continue my TKD studies & rank. This instructor understood & we are still great friends.

I didn't know much about his art & I couldn't take a rank I didn't earn.

I believe that it completely depends on the situation and the people involved. In the situation that Tellner described, it would be much more unacceptable to REFUSE the rank. I would be very shocked if anyone did refuse a rank that was offered to them in a public gathering by a senior of another style. It is simply an insult - especially when dealing with Asian cultures. It is considered a GREAT insult in these cultures to NOT accept a gift like this.

Now in Iceman's situation, things are different, it is not difficult to refuse gracefully. It would not insult anyone, especially since it was reached through normal conversation.

If a senior Master of another style approached me and offered a high ranking, I would humbly decline. Now how much he pushed after that, would determine whether I caved or not. If he was insistent on it, I would begin to feel that it would be an insult to refuse it.

Another important thing to remember is that ACCEPTING the rank and WEARING the rank are two different things. By wearing I mean advertising, telling people that you have it, or actually putting on the uniform. You can accept the rank, but not flaunt it and that is a different situation still.

If I were to ever accept a rank such as this dependent on the situation, I would never under any circumstance attempt to walk in to one of their schools wearing that rank or publicly advertise that I had the rank.

[Sensei Payne]

Rank is something that is about time put into the arts and knowleadge of the arts...

for example, someone who is affiliated with Oyata's organiszation would be reconized as such in kaicho Allen Amor's Organization, since Kaicho was a senior student of Oyata.. Kaicho knows what it takes to achive that level in that system, and trusts Sensei Oyata's teachings...so the ackowledgement of that rank and promotion to that rank, is vailid

But if some random organization wanted to send me a promotion just to put me on there roster....I would respectfully decline

[Blindside]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

Then you have a new instructor, that is a different situation than the one presented here.

Lamont

[Ceicei]

If it is an honorary belt for an achievement not related to directly being on the mat (not earned), then that belt belongs on the wall or some other place with an explanation of what it is for (clearly defined as honorary and the reason), and should *not* be worn around the waist. That's my take on this.

Would I accept one? I highly doubt I would be achieving that much recognition to the point that other organizations would want to award an honorary belt to me, so this is the least of my worries. I'm perfectly happy training on the mat, learning along the way, and earning my rank.

- Ceicei

[Balrog]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

Within the ATA, there is no issue. If an ATA student moves and joins a new ATA school, the rank is accepted directly because it is a common curriculum.

[MarkBarlow]

I've been offered rank in other styles and had a few certificates mailed to me out of the blue. Each was declined or returned. I have accepted rank from instructors outside my chosen system who I trained with and felt that, if required, I could demonstrate their curriculum without making a fool of myself.

There are several organizations that seem to exist only to cross-rank the members in as wide a variety of styles as possible. Typically, you've got a bunch of moderately qualified shodan and nidan who start a system or organization with their buddies and are suddenly 7th and 8th dans, soke and founders. It's sad that they are so delusional. It's even worse when they cloak themselves in religion and explain away their shortcomings by saying that God wanted them to create White Powder Puff Knight of the Oblong Table Right Hand of Yaweh Hapfudo Ryu. I do my best to avoid any type of association with groups that inflate and cross rank.

[mrhnau]

Interesting discussion... would I accept the rank? Only if strictly considered honorary. I would not consider myself a skiller practitioner, nor would I consider myself qualified to teach, open a school, etc.. I can see why some people would offer such a rank, but I think its difficult to balance what qualifies one for such an honorary rank. I can see alot of people using that belt in their "resume". I've seen too many people in their tweenties that have umpteen different belts in a zillion different systems. Makes you wonder how they had time to eat!

I kind of see this type of thing in the same light as an honorary doctorate. It's something you rarely hand out to exceptionally special people. More than likely they have made huge contributions to some academic field or in some real world setting. Would I consider them as having another real doctorate? Probably not. Would they likely list it as having an additional doctorate? Most likely not.

So, for me, the question would be... what exactly qualifies someone for an honorary belt? How can you force them to display/mention that the belt was strictly honorary?
How can you prevent unscrupulous people from taking advantage of said belt, or prevent people from handing out belts too frivilously?

[14 Kempo]

It seems that everyone, throughout this thread, is looking at the individual's moral values as to whether they would accept rank from another organization or not. It has also been brought up the individual situations as to whether it could be disrespectful to the elder of a particular style that is extending the offer.

Let me play devil's advocate here ...

What about the moral values of the organization itself?
Why would an individual, from outside and organization, be looked down on by the students of the very organization that offered the rank?
Shouldn't those students respect the wishes of thier organizations leaders for the given individual to hold the rank?

Just a few questions. Maybe the students of a given organization should raise questions within, rather than casting blame outside, whether or not the rank is accepted and whether or not the rank is honorary.

Again, not necessarily an answer as to whether or not I would accept the rank, cause I've never been in the situation and therefore can't answer out of experience. Just a look from a different angle, so-to-speak.

[Rich Parsons]

I've been offered rank in other styles and had a few certificates mailed to me out of the blue. Each was declined or returned. I have accepted rank from instructors outside my chosen system who I trained with and felt that, if required, I could demonstrate their curriculum without making a fool of myself.

There are several organizations that seem to exist only to cross-rank the members in as wide a variety of styles as possible. Typically, you've got a bunch of moderately qualified shodan and nidan who start a system or organization with their buddies and are suddenly 7th and 8th dans, soke and founders. It's sad that they are so delusional. It's even worse when they cloak themselves in religion and explain away their shortcomings by saying that God wanted them to create White Powder Puff Knight of the Oblong Table Right Hand of Yaweh Hapfudo Ryu. I do my best to avoid any type of association with groups that inflate and cross rank.


Kind of like when a bunch of Kenpo people recognize someone as being an Escrima master (when within the Escrime community they were not). Or a Fencing instructor / master recognizing a Karate Forms or Full Contact Sparring Champion as a master (when in the Karatecommunity there were not recognized as such). Once so recognized they then move on and start using said titles and or ranks.

[MarkBarlow]

Kind of like when a bunch of Kenpo people recognize someone as being an Escrima master (when within the Escrime community they were not). Or a Fencing instructor / master recognizing a Karate Forms or Full Contact Sparring Champion as a master (when in the Karatecommunity there were not recognized as such). Once so recognized they then move on and start using said titles and or ranks.

Exactly! I can think of 2 or 3 groups that do nothing but pat the members on the back (when not emptying the wallets of the suckers who came late to the game) and hand out completely bogus rank.

Every now and then, you'll get someone with real credentials and ability who smells money and jumps on the bandwagon. One self-proclaimed O'Sensei contacted some of my students, asked them how long they'd trained under me and what their rank was. In each case, he said, "Oh, you've been held back too long, as of now you're (jump ahead 2 or 3 ranks). Just drop me a check in the mail and I'll get your certificate out to you. The kicker here is that he wasn't offering rank in whatever system he'd pulled out of thin air, he was offering my students rank in the style I taught them, a system he held no rank in or had any connection to. None of my students accepted so I must be doing something right.

I haven't had a promotion since 1994. If I never get another promotion, I'll be just fine. The source of the rank is more important to me than the level.