Hatsumi Sensei and the Swordwork in the Bujinkan!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay most of you probably do not know that I have had some Filipino and Korean Sword Training as well as currently studying Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido along with the Sword work in Budo Taijutsu. One thing that I enjoy very much about the collective sword training in the Bujinkan is the freedom of movement within our Taijutsu. Sensei continually demonstrates his unique mastery by improvising and changing with what the moment dicatetes. This I personally think is one of the strong suits of Bikenjutsu in the Bujinkan. (oh and I am willing to admit that it can be a weakness as well depending on the individual) Any thoughts?

If you have not picked up Sensei's latest book on Japanese Swordsmanship then I could not recommend it more.

[Manzyberranzan]

We recently had shihan Arnaud Couserque here in Finland, along with shihans Moti Nativ and Pedro Fleitas. Arnaud commented about swordwork that one should not "block and cut" with the sword, absorbing the enemy's attack and intention should instead be the goal. I think this requires exactly the freedom of movement that you Brian described.



Mänzy

[Brian R. VanCise]

We recently had shihan Arnaud Couserque here in Finland, along with shihans Moti Nativ and Pedro Fleitas. Arnaud commented about swordwork that one should not "block and cut" with the sword, absorbing the enemy's attack and intention should instead be the goal. I think this requires exactly the freedom of movement that you Brian described.



Mänzy

From afar I have always been fond of the way that Shihan Arnaud Couserque moves with the sword. I bet that was a great seminar.

[Monadnock]

One thing that I enjoy very much about the collective sword training in the Bujinkan is the freedom of movement within our Taijutsu. Sensei continually demonstrates his unique mastery by improvising and changing with what the moment dicatetes.

Hi Brian,

Is this freedom of movement meant as a breakaway from kata training? It sounds as though it is more technique based, vs. the MJER training you do.

To me, there are benefits of both and each has a distinct purpose. Kata training burns in muscle memory and fluid technique training develops spontaneity. I also train in 2 styles that utilize the sword, one that uses Kata, and the other a technique based style. I do not find a conflict in doing both either.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi Brian,

Is this freedom of movement meant as a breakaway from kata training? It sounds as though it is more technique based, vs. the MJER training you do.

To me, there are benefits of both and each has a distinct purpose. Kata training burns in muscle memory and fluid technique training develops spontaneity. I also train in 2 styles that utilize the sword, one that uses Kata, and the other a technique based style. I do not find a conflict in doing both either.


While I would not say a break away from Kata training, that is part of it. Sensei moves within the moment depending on what is happening with his opponent and when doing so his movement will change to what is needed. (flow - nagare) Now I find this type of movment a strength for myself as I have (or so I have been told) good basics. However the weakness part filters in when someones basics are not so good. So kata movement and precision in the Bujinkan is very important but once you have the basics well then the ability to flow within the moment and change is very important. Sensei's movement is just phenomenal in this matter.

[Monadnock]

OK, I think I see what you are getting at. Would you say that the Nagare is akin to Ma-ai and timing? When practicing paired kata, the combative distance (ma-ai) is never the same each time, nor the timing, and so uchidachi and shidachi must work with each other. Is that the ability you are saying Hatsumi Sensei excells at? Controlling and changing these 2 aspects?

I think you are spot on in saying that the basics must be sound before the rest starts to make sense, or even begins to show itself. I am of course coming from an outsider's perspective with respect to the Bujinkan (I only had a short time training in there) but I see the similarities in what you are saying with respect to the arts I train now.

[Brian R. VanCise]

OK, I think I see what you are getting at. Would you say that the Nagare is akin to Ma-ai and timing? When practicing paired kata, the combative distance (ma-ai) is never the same each time, nor the timing, and so uchidachi and shidachi must work with each other. Is that the ability you are saying Hatsumi Sensei excells at? Controlling and changing these 2 aspects?

I think you are spot on in saying that the basics must be sound before the rest starts to make sense, or even begins to show itself. I am of course coming from an outsider's perspective with respect to the Bujinkan (I only had a short time training in there) but I see the similarities in what you are saying with respect to the arts I train now.

Hey Monadnock, Mai-ai and timing are certainly a part of it and yet with Sensei it goes much further. When moving he is free to explore and create with no restrictions. Coming from a varied background myself and seeing other people do this (high level people mind you) I find myself constantly amazed at how well he does this. You can particularly see this in various daikomyosaid dvd's that are available. For myself I enjoy all of the different sword work that I do. In the Japanese arts I particularly enjoy MJER but also enjoy the freedom of movement within taijutsu in the Bujinkan.

[Monadnock]

Yes, I have seen a lot of his DVD's and the movement all looks so natural.

Looks like you've really found something inspiring!

Gambatte!
Mike

[Koryu Rich]

Great thread!

Although my experience is limited I thought I’d pop my head in here :angel:


I’m fortunate enough to not only practice MJER, though I’m very new to it just a year under my belt, as well as Bujinkan but also Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjustu.

It’s been in this that I’ve found the flow you develop in the Bujinkan to help a great deal.

[Manzyberranzan]

From afar I have always been fond of the way that Shihan Arnaud Couserque moves with the sword. I bet that was a great seminar.

Indeed it was! :)



Mänzy

[Brian R. VanCise]

Indeed it was! :)



Mänzy


That is great! He moves exceptionally well from what I have seen.

[Manzyberranzan]

That is great! He moves exceptionally well from what I have seen.

That's right. It seems that he just glides softly forward, just like clouds in the sky. Although the "cloud" carries rock-solid fists that strike like hammers; my ear, cheek and mouth remember them well :D .



Mänzy

[DWeidman]

From afar I have always been fond of the way that Shihan Arnaud Couserque moves with the sword. I bet that was a great seminar.

Really?

I haven't had a lot of exposure, but I am surprised by that comment.

-Daniel

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really?

I haven't had a lot of exposure, but I am surprised by that comment.

-Daniel


Hey Dan why would you be surprised?

[DWeidman]

Hey Dan why would you be surprised?

If you have seen top tier sword work (outside of the BJK) - then most of what is seen IN the BJK doesn't look all that great.

From what I have seen - he is more "smash" than "subtle" - but again, I haven't had much exposure to be candid. I prefer subtle and accurate when it comes to blade work... subtle and decisive...

YMMV.

-Daniel

[jks9199]

If you have seen top tier sword work (outside of the BJK) - then most of what is seen IN the BJK doesn't look all that great.

From what I have seen - he is more "smash" than "subtle" - but again, I haven't had much exposure to be candid. I prefer subtle and accurate when it comes to blade work... subtle and decisive...

YMMV.

-Daniel
Is it that Bujinkan swordwork is inferior... Or is it just different?

I'm sure that there are plenty of Bujinkan practitioners who have only the bare minimum knowledge and experience with swordwork; it's the same in any system. But, I suspect that there are others who have spent a lot time really mastering the sword.

[Doc_Jude]

In my experience, there are plenty of Bujinkan Shihan around that have sought out sword instruction outside of the Bujinkan & I think that these are the ones that shine.
Has Arnaud-sensei done any sword work outside of the Booj that anyone knows of?

[Doc_Jude]

I'm sure that there are plenty of Bujinkan practitioners who have only the bare minimum knowledge and experience with swordwork; it's the same in any system. But, I suspect that there are others who have spent a lot time really mastering the sword.

Agreed. It's not a common focus in the US, however.

[DWeidman]

Is it that Bujinkan swordwork is inferior... Or is it just different?

Hm. It is different for sure. Inferior is too hard to quantify.


I'm sure that there are plenty of Bujinkan practitioners who have only the bare minimum knowledge and experience with swordwork; it's the same in any system. But, I suspect that there are others who have spent a lot time really mastering the sword.

Considering 6 of the 9 schools are generally accepted to be Samurai schools - we are pretty light on our knowledge of sword (general statement...).

Impressing other BJK folk with sword work isn't such a big deal - impressing people who have been introduced to GOOD kenjutsu... on the other hand...

Anyway...

-Daniel

[Brian R. VanCise]

I don't know exactly about that Dan as I get to train regularly with MJER people as well as people in other ryu-ha. What they like about Bujinkan sword work is what happens after the draw and the ability to move on angles, etc. They also like the freedom of movement.

I too like subtlety and can see some subtlety in Bujinkan sword work as well.

Maybe you need to work with some of the Bujinkan people that are simply good with a sword or with some different partners.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Agreed. It's not a common focus in the US, however.


All depends on where you are from I guess.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[DWeidman]

I don't know exactly about that Dan as I get to train regularly with MJER people as well as people in other ryu-ha. What they like about Bujinkan sword work is what happens after the draw and the ability to move on angles, etc. They also like the freedom of movement.

Don't get me wrong - one of our greatest strengths is freedom with weapons in our hands. One of our greatest weaknesses is freedom with weapons in our hands. I have seen far too many sloppy sloppy demos over the years from very high ranks with very low skill.


I too like subtlety and can see some subtlety in Bujinkan sword work as well.

Same here. Not from Arnaud though... Hence my observation earlier.


Maybe you need to work with some of the Bujinkan people that are simply good with a sword or with some different partners.

No worries my friend. I always endeavor to surround myself with the best of the best. I have plenty of matt time with people who are "good with a sword".

-Daniel

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don't get me wrong - one of our greatest strengths is freedom with weapons in our hands. One of our greatest weaknesses is freedom with weapons in our hands. I have seen far too many sloppy sloppy demos over the years from very high ranks with very low skill.

-Daniel


You will not get an argument from myself on that note. Freedom of movement is one of those great and yet dangerous things. Some can do well with it and other's simply cannot. Quite often if freedom of movement comes to early then the practitioner never learns the intracacies of their chosen skill set.