All that is black belt is not truth

[Amatsu Tatara]

In my 40 years in the martial arts I have met many black belts that were good fighters and bad instructors and many that were great instructors and poor fighters, they knew thier principles.
Several times I ran into a particular Sensei who had developed several good solid schools yet claimed to be able to deliver dozens of strikes in one second. So years pass and I move across several states to settle in the Pacific Northwest, I'm alone without a school, student or fellow instructor. Wow there in the phone book is a listing for-----------(the listing is omitted to protect the faker). Great I dial up and am told the instructors name, E-gad it's him, Mr. 12 strikes per second. Now I am informed that he is a black belt in 16 styles. I hang up.
Question;
How can someone with real certifications with real Sensei and a real ability to produce good if not great students and schools be so full of it.

[Blindside]

In my 40 years in the martial arts I have met many black belts that were good fighters and bad instructors and many that were great instructors and poor fighters, they knew thier principles.
Several times I ran into a particular Sensei who had developed several good solid schools yet claimed to be able to deliver dozens of strikes in one second. So years pass and I move across several states to settle in the Pacific Northwest, I'm alone without a school, student or fellow instructor. Wow there in the phone book is a listing for-----------(the listing is omitted to protect the faker). Great I dial up and am told the instructors name, E-gad it's him, Mr. 12 strikes per second. Now I am informed that he is a black belt in 16 styles. I hang up.
Question;
How can someone with real certifications with real Sensei and a real ability to produce good if not great students and schools be so full of it.

I'm pretty certain the guy you are talking about posts on KenpoTalk, maybe you could try posting this there and bringing up the subject in a forum where he could respond.

Lamont

[theletch1]

Because so many people in the states buy into the eastern mysticism of the martial arts world and believe that having a black belt equals being some sort of magical being. Also, when folks are first introduced to the martial arts they don't know good from bad from horrible. All it takes is a modicum of skill, a narcisitic attitude, a little charisma and some papers with lots of kanji on them and the uniformed will follow. Hopefully, those that follow will catch on sooner or later and leave for greener pastures. What you're describing is, unfortunately, not that uncommon. Heck, my first instructor was one for the "Horror stories" forum here. I caught on, looked elsewhere and found both the art and instructor that suit me perfectly. Don't become disheartened with the martial arts or artists in general. Just find some folks in your area to train with and know that you are following the path that suits you best.

[exile]

But wait, this actually is a somewhat unusual situation. What we have here, according to what the OP describes, is not a standard faker, but someone who is a very competent trainer of MAists, but who inflates his own reputation by making outrageous claims that you'd think no legitimate expert and successful teacher should need to make. Very strange, I have to say!

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, though I've heard of one or two similar cases. When I hear of such things, I always start from the assumption that instead of being a calculating, cynical charlatan, the instructor in question has... well, has developed a cracked bearing somewhere and lost touch with reality to some extent. In other words, there may be a serious personality problem here rather than an effort to deliberately deceive. But it's hard to say...

MartialTalk has a policy of discouraging `fraudbusting', as you'll have noticed when you read the original Terms of Service, so pursuing this matter more specifically here is definitely not a good idea. But at a more general level, the question `How can it be that a good, competent instructor behaves like a deliberate con artist?' is one that I have no answer for, except the one I mentioned—that you may be looking at some kind of genuine pathology here...

[Monadnock]

Never underestimate the power of the almighty dollar.

Even if he is as good as you say, he may have no other way to attract students than to put silly ads in the Yellow Book. Also, think about how many true 'seekers" there are out there vs. the number of people who just want to go out and try the next cool activity. Chances are he's aiming for the latter to fill the wallet quicker.

[bushidomartialarts]

I suspect it's the result of a sort of vicious cycle.

You become an instructor. Your students take everything you say as gospel truth. You start to believe your own press. You start making ever increasing claims as to your ability, experience, prowess. Your students take everything you say as gospel truth. You start to believe even that press...and on and on.

On another note, whereabouts in Oregon are ya? We have a great bunch of guys training together out here in Hillsboro. If that's far, it's likely we can help you find a good program near you.

[jks9199]

In my 40 years in the martial arts I have met many black belts that were good fighters and bad instructors and many that were great instructors and poor fighters, they knew thier principles.
Several times I ran into a particular Sensei who had developed several good solid schools yet claimed to be able to deliver dozens of strikes in one second. So years pass and I move across several states to settle in the Pacific Northwest, I'm alone without a school, student or fellow instructor. Wow there in the phone book is a listing for-----------(the listing is omitted to protect the faker). Great I dial up and am told the instructors name, E-gad it's him, Mr. 12 strikes per second. Now I am informed that he is a black belt in 16 styles. I hang up.
Question;
How can someone with real certifications with real Sensei and a real ability to produce good if not great students and schools be so full of it.
$$$$$$$
That's why...

And that's why I don't ever see myself teaching commercially.

[shesulsa]

Admin note:

Thread moved to General Martial Arts Talk. Please start threads in a section you think they would fit according to the forum title and description.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

[Ninjamom]

.....
How can someone with real certifications ...... and a real ability ........... be so full of it.Because ability, training, and education are not necessarily the same as CHARACTER.

[Carol]

Because ability, training, and education are not necessarily the same as CHARACTER.

Amen to that, Ninjamom :asian:

[thetruth]

It's not the guy who advertised in bb mag as the speedman is it??


Cheers
Sam:asian:

[Christina05]

$$$$$$$
That's why...

And that's why I don't ever see myself teaching commercially.


Ditto. And its so sad when people buy into that kind of stuff.

[Tez3]

$$$$$$$
That's why...

And that's why I don't ever see myself teaching commercially.

If you teach commercially and try to teach ethically, keeping costs down etc you will run at a loss trust me! We run 'commerical' classes but frankly it barely covers costs like travelling costs, cleaning materials etc. We have to rely on the MMA shows to make a living.
We could of course have contracts and all that stuff but prefer not to. Means we get pushed out of the market though by the type of club described here. We'll teach you to fight but it won't be the fancy 12 strikes a minute thing.

[Cirdan]

Hard work, sweat and pain don`t sell.
Sensationalism, quick black belts and mysticism does.

The roles of Martial arts instructor and salesman don`t mix.

[Brian R. VanCise]

But wait, this actually is a somewhat unusual situation. What we have here, according to what the OP describes, is not a standard faker, but someone who is a very competent trainer of MAists, but who inflates his own reputation by making outrageous claims that you'd think no legitimate expert and successful teacher should need to make. Very strange, I have to say!

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, though I've heard of one or two similar cases. When I hear of such things, I always start from the assumption that instead of being a calculating, cynical charlatan, the instructor in question has... well, has developed a cracked bearing somewhere and lost touch with reality to some extent. In other words, there may be a serious personality problem here rather than an effort to deliberately deceive. But it's hard to say...

MartialTalk has a policy of discouraging `fraudbusting', as you'll have noticed when you read the original Terms of Service, so pursuing this matter more specifically here is definitely not a good idea. But at a more general level, the question `How can it be that a good, competent instructor behaves like a deliberate con artist?' is one that I have no answer for, except the one I mentioned—that you may be looking at some kind of genuine pathology here...

I have to say that I like the way Exile worded this.

[Tez3]

Hard work, sweat and pain don`t sell.
Sensationalism, quick black belts and mysticism does.

The roles of Martial arts instructor and salesman don`t mix.

That is heart breakingly true.

[qi-tah]

If you teach commercially and try to teach ethically, keeping costs down etc you will run at a loss trust me! We run 'commerical' classes but frankly it barely covers costs like travelling costs, cleaning materials etc. We have to rely on the MMA shows to make a living.
We could of course have contracts and all that stuff but prefer not to. Means we get pushed out of the market though by the type of club described here. We'll teach you to fight but it won't be the fancy 12 strikes a minute thing.

*gasp* is that... humanly possible?? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Em MacIntosh]

If you can move that fast, why would you need more than one strike. I've heard of a wing chun practitioner who could do 8 punches per second (supposedly full force). Needless to say I was sceptical of that. Let alone twelve...

[Tez3]

When we are teaching the kids my instructor will stand there and say to the kids, 'did you see that move?' the kids will go 'wow no'. "See" says my instructor " I was so fast you couldn't even see me move". The kids ponder a minute then start laughing because they know they've been had. If kids can work out it's a joke why can't the adults see it's not real?

[Em MacIntosh]

"Wanna see how fast I can kick? Wanna see it again?", LOL. I guess it's universal. Would be nice to move that fast though. Jacki Chan's so fast he'll spin you around, run out to the parking lot and get a tire iron out of the car and hit you over the head with it. Too bad someone turned himself into a joke. All that training...apperently he's a competent MAist who thinks he has the "super kung-fu". Hafta wonder about that sanity question.

[Flying Crane]

I always had this goal that perhaps someday I could break the soundbarrier with a front snap kick. Leaving sonic booms in my wake...

Haven't done it yet. I'll let ya all know when I get there.

[tradrockrat]

Because ability, training, and education are not necessarily the same as CHARACTER.

may I quote you?

That's a great statement.

[Flying Crane]

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, though I've heard of one or two similar cases. When I hear of such things, I always start from the assumption that instead of being a calculating, cynical charlatan, the instructor in question has... well, has developed a cracked bearing somewhere and lost touch with reality to some extent. In other words, there may be a serious personality problem here rather than an effort to deliberately deceive. But it's hard to say...



I think you may have hit upon something here. When I think about a few certain people i have run across, I think this is the best description.

[Ninjamom]

may I quote you?You betcha!

Thanks for the encouragement.

[CuongNhuka]

If you can move that fast, why would you need more than one strike. I've heard of a wing chun practitioner who could do 8 punches per second (supposedly full force). Needless to say I was sceptical of that. Let alone twelve...

The question isn't "can he do 8 full strength punches in a second", it's "can he doing 8 full strength NONE-one inch punches a second?". Or is that what you meant by full strength?

[CuongNhuka]

The question isn't "can he do 8 full strength punches in a second", it's "can he doing 8 full strength NONE-one inch punches a second?". Or is that what you meant by full strength?

Just to make sure people understand me. Is he claiming to do 8 one inch punches in a second? Cause thats not that hard, heck I can do that. But is he doing 8 full, none-strikeing hand in Wu Sao postion, punches? Cause that streches the imagination.
One inch punches are easy to get going fast, heck I could probably do 12 in a second, lol. Got me? -coughs Em MacIntosh's name-

[terryl965]

In my 40 years in the martial arts I have met many black belts that were good fighters and bad instructors and many that were great instructors and poor fighters, they knew thier principles.
Several times I ran into a particular Sensei who had developed several good solid schools yet claimed to be able to deliver dozens of strikes in one second. So years pass and I move across several states to settle in the Pacific Northwest, I'm alone without a school, student or fellow instructor. Wow there in the phone book is a listing for-----------(the listing is omitted to protect the faker). Great I dial up and am told the instructors name, E-gad it's him, Mr. 12 strikes per second. Now I am informed that he is a black belt in 16 styles. I hang up.
Question;
How can someone with real certifications with real Sensei and a real ability to produce good if not great students and schools be so full of it.


Hvae money can get certificates, get together and form a group and you are certified in another couple of style. You sign mine I'll sign yours.

[tellner]

The way I see it there are four major attributes that a martial artist can have


Fighting prowess
Technical skills
Teaching ability
Moral, ethical and emotional developmentHaving any one of these in no way gives you any of the others.

[jks9199]

If you teach commercially and try to teach ethically, keeping costs down etc you will run at a loss trust me! We run 'commerical' classes but frankly it barely covers costs like travelling costs, cleaning materials etc. We have to rely on the MMA shows to make a living.
We could of course have contracts and all that stuff but prefer not to. Means we get pushed out of the market though by the type of club described here. We'll teach you to fight but it won't be the fancy 12 strikes a minute thing.
The simple truth is that if you're running a business, whether it's selling burgers, teaching martial arts, or fixing cars, you've simply got to give people what they want. Right now, lots of folks want an "activity" a couple nights a week that'll help 'em get into shape, but they don't want any bruises or real pain. Or they want somewhere to stash their kids where there'll be a bit of discipline while they're at work...

If you're teaching commercially, you have to recognize the business demands; you've gotta pay the rent. And that means that you have to adapt what you teach to the market's demands. A very few, very exceptional individuals have avoided that trap; they have my respect and admiration, 'cause I really don't see how they do it. Most have to settle for paying the bills...

Which is why I have a "real" job, and teach martial arts the way I was taught.

[Tez3]

We've accepted that the clubs as such will never make money so we concentrate on the martial arts kit we have designed, made and sell along with the shows. We don't want to water down what we teach as we feel it would be fraud to send people out thinking they can defend themselves with a couple of easy moves. Likewise we want a blackbelt to mean something and have people work for it.
It just seems a shame that we can't run a decent club that will at least pay for itself if not make a living, without compromising what we do. It makes for stressful times trying to balance the books. We actually end up paying for stuff out of our own pockets. I do have a fulltime job and I don't get paid for anything I do in martial arts.
The kit business is kicking off, we have good quality BJJ suits at reasonable prices that people seem to appreciate (we don't export so I'm not advertising or touting for business!) we have our own design MMA gloves which are taking off as well as other stuff so hopefully we will have both a living and our standards!