What is all this blocking about

[Amatsu Tatara]

Blocks certainly have thier application but they don't apply to a punch.
Alright maybe that statement is a little harsh. But I've been in and around many "street fights" and let me tell you that the punches come fast and if the attacker has boxed even faster. When I hear an instructor talk about stopping or catching a punch I know that he has never been in a street fight. A hay maker that you see coming, a drunk sure, that block is great. The myth of the block taking on the average punch is like the myth about delivering 11 strikes in one second, hmm I wonder which one will take out the attacker.

[theletch1]

Since this is the "Meet and Greet" section I'll start by saying welcome to MT. Tell us a bit about yourself and your training.

[Touch Of Death]

If you throw your punches right, they ARE blocks.
Sean

[Monadnock]

Parry the jabs and block the thrusts.

Hey, don't boxers block too????

[seasoned]

If you throw your punches right, they ARE blocks.
Sean
And if you throw your blocks right, they are strikes. Upper block to the throat.:) Anyway amatsu tatara it looks like you are already enjoying posting. Hope your having fun.:)

[Yeti]

If you throw your punches right, they ARE blocks.
Sean

I'll 2nd that.

BTW...welcome to MT.

[shesulsa]

Admin Note:

This thread has been moved to General Martial Arts Talk due to subject matter.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

[Fang]

Blocks certainly have thier application but they don't apply to a punch.
Alright maybe that statement is a little harsh. But I've been in and around many "street fights" and let me tell you that the punches come fast and if the attacker has boxed even faster. When I hear an instructor talk about stopping or catching a punch I know that he has never been in a street fight. A hay maker that you see coming, a drunk sure, that block is great. The myth of the block taking on the average punch is like the myth about delivering 11 strikes in one second, hmm I wonder which one will take out the attacker.

Hmm, must be a gap in our personal experience somewhere... I've pulled off blocks and am pretty fond of forceful parries. From what I've seen blocks can be pretty destructive if you manage to pull them off. The concept is in the 'timing' but its true they have their place and time much like anything else we do.

[bluemtn]

I have to agree that blocks can be, and are used as strikes in sparring especially... I had a teacher that had us students break a board using a block, as a tool to show how powerful he likes to see the blocks (at the time- specifically in forms). Now, I've been told to block hard in sparring, and if someone didn't, it was counted against you. I've also blocked a fast moving punch before, too, with quite a lot of success. Now, obviously if all you're looking at is your opponents feet, you won't catch the punches...

[TheOriginalName]

Just a quick story.
One of the yellow belts at our dojo was attacked on his way to support friends who were taking part in a black belt testing.
He was attacked by two individual.
One of the attempted to punch him - he performed one of the basic blocks we have been learning. He followed it up with a punch.
The second one attacked - he performed another of the basic blocks and followed it up with a groin kick (that'll teach 'em).

So to say blocks are not practical is incorrect. The more you practise the faster you can block. The more you spar the better you can see the punch coming before the fist starts to move.
Fine - if they are an expert your block will probably be ineffective - but fortunately most people on the street aren't experts.

Just my two cents.......

Welcome to the forum!!

[bushidomartialarts]

Blocks certainly have thier application but they don't apply to a punch.
Alright maybe that statement is a little harsh. But I've been in and around many "street fights" and let me tell you that the punches come fast and if the attacker has boxed even faster. When I hear an instructor talk about stopping or catching a punch I know that he has never been in a street fight. A hay maker that you see coming, a drunk sure, that block is great. The myth of the block taking on the average punch is like the myth about delivering 11 strikes in one second, hmm I wonder which one will take out the attacker.

Not to speak out of turn, but I think I'ma gonna call bs on this one. This is the sort of statement made by somebody with no real experience who wants everybody to think he has some.

Sometimes blocks work, sometimes they don't. Ditto all your other techniques and basics. That's reality as I've experienced it, and I think you'll find most of the other experienced folk on this board as well.

[Hand Sword]

Well, speaking from the perspective of many "street fights" myself. I would say that the opening post's philosophy is partly true. Blocks will work against a one big punch. However they also apply to opening shots of a fight. They are usually somewhat of a bomb with the strong side, maybe followed by a quick, second shot, if standing. From there one usually grabs on with the weaker hand and pummels with the stronger one. Applied aggressively (which you should, as you are in a fight) blocks work fine. Against "boxers", true hard blocks are too slow to deal with their fast combinations. However, you shouldn't be standing around letting them tee off on you with combinations. You have many more weapons available to you. You don't try to punch and block with a boxer. If they are close enough to tee off, they are close enough to kick, takedown, clinch, etc..

[Em MacIntosh]

You have to be fast! Timing is more important, but you have to be fast! I hate to waste a move...

[Em MacIntosh]

Not too many worse feelings than when you miss (block or strike)

[tradrockrat]

Well, speaking from the perspective of many "street fights" myself. I would say that the opening post's philosophy is partly true. Blocks will work against a one big punch. However they also apply to opening shots of a fight.


Totally agree with this statement. Bando stresses and initial evasion or hard striking block followed by a progression of attacks until the fight is over. Blocks have their place, even though I'm more of a "parry" guy.

Once while bouncing I had a guy come at me in the narrow space between the bar and the wall with the only strike he could throw - an overhand, downward punch. I went into him him a textbook rising block and smashed his arm and face at nearly the same time. As it was a block, the boss didn't get pissed from me punching a customer - a distinct no-no. From there I just spun him around into a choke and out the door.

[King]

One of my favorite blocks is done with the point of my elbow (aka spiking). I've broken 4 people's wrists with it; broken wrists ends fights really quickly. So when you state that blocks don't apply to punches I'd have to disagree. Experience is a very good teacher and I've eaten a lot of punches over a span of 15 years to share this insight with you. So I've had plenty of time to uh "practice". lol

[Em MacIntosh]

Spiking, eh? Been doin that for years...

[Rich Parsons]

Now, maybe my experience is different. But the last place I'd want to be in a situation where I've got multiple attackers is tied up with ONE of them on the ground. See, unless you're Chuck Norris, and carry a screenwriter in your back pocket to keep attackers coming at you one at a time -- real world mob attacks don't happen that way. They ALL jump you... and if you're down, more jump you! If you're on the ground, you've lost a huge amount of your mobility (that's why I LIKE taking bad guys to the ground...).




Hmmm Let me see.

One guy each grabbed the side of jacket to try to pull over my head. (* Two so far *)

Another two tried each to grab and pin my legs (* Four total so far *)

One guy who was coming in fast to knock me out. (* Five total so far *)

I was able to get me legs free and through both of them yes I said both of them up and into the guy coming at me to stop him. Of course the guys going for me legs and trying to pul the jacket over my head and I all went down (* so did the guy I double kicked *). Being alone in this fight. I just elbowed and punched and slammed anything near me.

Wait did I tell you about the very first guy I had out on the floor. Nope? Sorry. He came around and started kicking me in the ribs and so did some random guy. (* Total 7 people and as some of them were on the ground with me so it was a total mess. *) Well two guys come walking in and see the fight and each grab one. (* Now just 5 on me. *) We ended up getting up and going down lots of times. While on the ground I had my hands and ankles stepped on and my ribs kicked a couple of times and one to the face that would have been worse if I did not have such a hard forehead.

While trying to get up and away, I was tackled again. Me and four and half of them went through a plate glass window. (* The half was the one who did clear through but was stuck half in and half out. *) I hit the window low and it popped out and up. I tried to roll through. I hit hard and looked up and the glass was still going up in slow motion. I rolled over and crawled scrambled away as fast as possible and the glass came down on them. The safety glass did cut them up and they looked real bad, but they were all able to drive themsleves to the hospital before the police were able to show up.

Me?

I spent the night in the hospital as well with a dislocated rib and a bruised hyper-extended knee and other various injuried including some hard shots to head.

Did I win?

I am alive so I think I won. But it was very painful and costly.

Being on the ground in a fight for your life is not the place to be.

Or at least that is the way I remember it. ;) :D :)

[Sukerkin]

My god Rich, what brought all that on!

Glad that you made it through to the 'other side' mostly in one piece : phew :.

[MJS]

There was another thread floating around here on the use of parries. IMHO, blocks and parries are all tools, which have their place and time. Its a matter of using the tool at the right time. If someone chooses to disregard the use of the block, thats their choice, however, its not necessarily the right choice for everyone, considering we're all different.

[Carol]

Blocking is a big part of what I do.

Block and get off the attacker's centerline.

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[Rich Parsons]

My god Rich, what brought all that on!

Glad that you made it through to the 'other side' mostly in one piece : phew :.


While in College I worked as a bouncer and security and as a manager of a hangout for teens and young adults.

The guy I put on the ground tried to hit one of my female employees. He did not see me, and I saw him and caught his punch and the choked him with my other hand. While I was "talking" with the rest he turned blue and then white and then other colors and he went out. I released him and the story is as above.

[Steel Tiger]

Blocking is a big part of what I do.

Block and get off the attacker's centerline.

This is exactly what I think of when I think blocking, or parrying, or deflecting, or whatever you want to call it.

It generally involves not getting hurt first and then getting into a position to do some harm.

[Kacey]

There was another thread floating around here on the use of parries. IMHO, blocks and parries are all tools, which have their place and time. Its a matter of using the tool at the right time. If someone chooses to disregard the use of the block, thats their choice, however, its not necessarily the right choice for everyone, considering we're all different.

I agree - if someone offers to teach me a tool, I am going to learn to use it, whether I think it is useful at the time it is being taught or not. I can always choose not to use it if I know it - but if I don't know it, I don't have the ability to choose.

[Munkyjitsudo]

ok I guess this will be on topic... blocking is impractical have a boxer chuck punches at you while you stand in a corner not a karate or taekwondo guy who's gonna throw impractical straight punches that imitate the spear thrust old fuedel japan, it's a basic boxign drill and tell me if your magic hands are working against them... reason why the stonewall defense was invented... and catching someones punch with your hand from the side of them when there trying to hit someone else isnt a block it's a grab. The ONLY block we train in my class is a super wide haymaker and the only way to actually block a haymaker is at the bending point of the arm and you have to catch it behind the shoulder. to much to have to anticipate. impractical. better off slipping and dodging the punches. waiting for them to come to you. no one on the street throws straight punches it's all dead arm flailing and haymakers.

[Munkyjitsudo]

One of my favorite blocks is done with the point of my elbow (aka spiking). I've broken 4 people's wrists with it; broken wrists ends fights really quickly. So when you state that blocks don't apply to punches I'd have to disagree. Experience is a very good teacher and I've eaten a lot of punches over a span of 15 years to share this insight with you. So I've had plenty of time to uh "practice". lol


aka spiking is stonewall defense my friend... check the crazy monkey boxing system for advanced applications for spiking while in the stonewall defense...

[King]

aka spiking is stonewall defense my friend... check the crazy monkey boxing system for advanced applications for spiking while in the stonewall defense...

lol, very interesting I really thought you were joking... The spiking block was just something I accidentally discovered and somebody told me what it was called. After browsing a little bit about the crazy monkey boxing defense system I must say I'm quite curious. I could use a lot of head defense tweaking now that I only have one good eye left. Certainly something that would help me improve my Muay Thai. Thanks mate!

[exile]

Blocks certainly have thier application but they don't apply to a punch.
Alright maybe that statement is a little harsh. But I've been in and around many "street fights" and let me tell you that the punches come fast and if the attacker has boxed even faster. When I hear an instructor talk about stopping or catching a punch I know that he has never been in a street fight. A hay maker that you see coming, a drunk sure, that block is great. The myth of the block taking on the average punch is like the myth about delivering 11 strikes in one second, hmm I wonder which one will take out the attacker.

There is something about this post that strikes me as very strange. On the one hand, we're told that

When I hear an instructor talk about stopping or catching a punch I know that he has never been in a street fight.

On the other hand, we're also told that

A hay maker that you see coming, a drunk sure, that block is great.

What I find weird about this juxtaposition is that unsought violent encounters with an untrained, dangerous assailant—a pretty good working definition of a streetfight for most of us, I think!—virtually always, from my own experience, begin with an attempted `John Wayne' roundhouse. Some guy is in a bad mood, is proably a bit of an aggressive jerk, or else is a pathological bully, you cross his path due largely to bad luck, and... there you are, in a streetfight. So to say that blocking doesn't work in a streetfight, but then add that it's great to do when facing a haymaker, is like saying that you don't enjoy travelling by automobile, you'd much rather get where you have to go by car... so I just don't get what the OP is saying here. People like Patrick McCarthy and Bill Burgar, who've done serious research on common street attacks, have observed that in almost every case such attacks begin with what PMcC calls `habitual acts of violence', and that such such acts heavily reflect variants of grab-and-strike actions that TMA deflection/strike combinations work extremely effectively against, if they're trained in a realistic manner. Once again, for the zillionth time, the TMAs have all you need to defend yourself effectively but you have to be willing to train under simulated street-violence conditions, and therefore to be willing to risk non-trivial injuries.

But there's a lot more that needs to go into a serious reply to the OP. As far as the practicality of blocking goes, sure, if by blocking you mean just standing there ignoring an aggressive display by an obviously dangerous guy and letting him close the distance, and thinking that you can react fast enough after he throws the punch from a position where your's basically standing there with your hands in your pockets... well yes, blocking is not going to be very effective there, as every single discussion of realistic TMA applications has emphasized repeatedly. But no one who's been well trained just stands there. I'll leave out the pre-emptive strike option, which is advocated on extremely sensible grounds by traditional karateka and TKDists alike; just talking about purely defensive reaction, every single CQ oriented SD system, from military-style TKD to Combat Hapkido to reality-based karate application expects you to be in a specific preparatory mode which has been discussed in greatest detail, under the name `The Fence', by Geoff Thompson, probably the most celebrated professional streetfighter in the UK, a career club/doorman bouncer with decades of experience and something on the order of 200 documented violent altercations on the `pavement arena', which have earned him a level of fear and respect in those circles pretty much unparalleled in the world. And GT, btw, is a high ranking Shotokan karateka, one of the people in Abernethy's realistic combat TMA `experimental' group, who has worked out the use of The Fence over years of the nastiest streetfighting you can imagine. And guess what: the whole point of the fence is to allow you to block a punch or other hand-based strike (though it also nips graps and other attack-preparatory moves in the bud).

Most of the people on MT probably have some experience with the fence, an innocent looking projection of both arms in a kind of conciliatory posture which nonetheless allows the defender to easily intercept a punch directly at, or off, their centerline, deflecting it while the defender closes the simultaneously closes the distance and strikes to the attacker's face with elbow or palm-heel strikes or throat with knifehand strikes, at the same time trapping the deflected attacking arm while targetting weak points on the attacker's neck and head; arm pins are also straightforward to apply. And these techs are in many cases already built into the kata, hyungs or hsings of traditional MAs. So far as I can tell, The Fence counts as a blocking tactic. So to the extent that people like Thompson, Peyton Quinn, Lawrence Kane, John Pelligrini and other bouncers, security managers and other types with vast documented first-hand experience in violent encounters advocate deflection/interception defense tactics like The Fence, based on their own fighting experience, to that extent it seems clear that blocking does work.

But it works in other ways too. Check out the following article at Iain Abernethy's website:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp

Kane's article, `Shock blocks' (free, and downloadable, like all 60+ terrific articles available at Abernethy's site) recalls the following incident from the life of Anko Itosu, in his lifetime one of the most formidable fighters on Okinawa:

famed Shuri-Te karate master Itosu "Anko" Yasutsune traveled to the port city of Naha in the summer of 1856 to find relief from a particularly long period of heat and unbearable humidity. He found a large rock that provided some relief from the sun, settled down to enjoy the ocean breeze, and was about to doze off when he overheard several of the local villagers cracking jokes and disparaging Shuri karate.

Insulted by this banter, he decided to uphold the honor of his style by challenging the local champion, Naha-no-Tomoyose, to a duel. Making his way to the challenge area (ude-kake-shi), he made himself known to the crowd by quickly defeating three lesser practitioners in order to attract the local champion's attention.

When Tomoyose arrived on the scene, Itosu discovered to his chagrin that he faced a much larger, more powerfully built opponent. He realized that he would need to end the fight quickly or risk becoming overwhelmed by Tomoyose's superior size and strength. As the fighters began to circle each other, members of the crowd observed this disparity too, wagering at odds of ten to one against the challenger from Shuri. Tomoyose threw the first blow, a mighty lunge punch (oi tsuki). As Tomoyose's fist came screaming toward his head, Itosu shifted aside and blocked with a sword-hand technique (shuto uke), neatly breaking his adversary's arm. The crowd heard a loud snap, like the breaking of a branch, and the fight was over. This great victory, won through a basic block, solidified Itosu Yasutsune's reputation for all time.

Kand discusses ways to ramp up a basic check/control CQ defense response to the point where extreme limb damage results, taking the assailant out of the fight at its very inception. And yes, in response to the OPer's repeated insistence on the role of multiple strikes in making blocking useless, Kane specifically discusses in this article how training to administer shock blocks, whose tactical payoff is typically a severe joint break, basically takes further strikes—or any other use of the attacker's limb—out of the picture. In this connection I find the following post very suggestive:


One of my favorite blocks is done with the point of my elbow (aka spiking). I've broken 4 people's wrists with it; broken wrists ends fights really quickly. So when you state that blocks don't apply to punches I'd have to disagree. Experience is a very good teacher and I've eaten a lot of punches over a span of 15 years to share this insight with you. So I've had plenty of time to uh "practice". lol

Makes sense to me! Just another example of what seems to me the incorrectness of the OPer's main claim.

[Sukerkin]

Superb point-making, my friend. One might almost say "Well blocked!" :D.

I logged in with the intentional of putting a reasoned rebuttal in this thread ... now I see I don't have to :).

However, my central hope was that I could help the OP see that belligerent, unsubstantiated and overly blunt disagreement with a group of people quite knowledgeable in the field under debate was not going to do his reputation anything but harm.

[exile]

Superb point-making, my friend. One might almost say "Well blocked!" :D.


Rep for that alone, Mark :lol:

I logged in with the intentional of putting a reasoned rebuttal in this thread ... now I see I don't have to :).

However, my central hope was that I could help the OP see that belligerent, unsubstantiated and overly blunt disagreement with a group of people quite knowledgeable in the field under debate was not going to do his reputation anything but harm.

You should say everything you were originally intending to say, M. I'm interested in your take on the whole issue (both the tone of the OP and the issue of blocking in general... the latter is really complex and important and there's a lot more to be said, I think. Curriculum issues, for example: how should effective blocking be taught so that it becomes a habit, and at what point in the curriculum, and who should be how old to learn what... that sort of thing. I've been thinking a lot about curriculum issues lately (`worrying is maybe a better word') and any thoughts you have on any of this stuff would be of great help and interest to me and others....)

[Sukerkin]

Sadly I don't have time to put up anything cogent as I'm off to iai ... running late already in fact :O.

I'll certainly try and formulate a 'take' on the subject, from the kung fu perspective, this evening tho'.

[exile]

Sadly I don't have time to put up anything cogent as I'm off to iai ... running late already in fact :O.

I'll certainly try and formulate a 'take' on the subject, from the kung fu perspective, this evening tho'.

Looking forward to it! Meanwhile, though, I have to issue an IOU for rep to you as you're still on my rep stack. But that too shall pass... :)

[Sukerkin]

Okay, great iaido session complete, lawn mowed, borders weeded, Star Wars IV watched (so my missus could see the stormtrooper bang his head on the control room door scene :D) and a fine bottle of Wolf Blass on it's way to being defeated :yum:.

I've re-read Post 1 again to refresh my memory as to where the past three pages (not counting deletions) came from and I have to say that I'm a little bit confused as to the line of thinking those few sentences convey.

I've ground it through the mill of my aging grey cells and have concluded that the OP might be suffering a little from some propagandised misapprehensions brought on by whoever he's being instructed by (or by taking what's in kung fu movies as being actual combative truth :)).

When we speak of 'catching a punch' we're not talking about an Arnie style fist grab that stops the attack dead.

Very difficult to try and describe in words as it's a rolling, receeding, deflection that involves both forward then backward movement of your own arm, a twist of the shoulders and hips (and of the feet if necessary at the end) whilst your own wrist rotates to push the strike off target and allow you to drop your hand onto the extended wrist of the attacker.

It takes less time to execute than a strike as the distance you have to travel is much less and the muscle power needed is much less also (using 'quick twitch' fibres rather than strength ones).

It keeps your own posture unbroken and gives you the lever you need to either break the opponents posture, control his movements or break the arm if you need to. The one time I had to use it was against someone wielding an improvised weapon and I did all three with frightening ease considering he was quite a bit bigger and stronger than me.

As to 'Blocking', altho' we speak of what we do in Lau as 'blocks' they're generally really no such thing. Again I'm wondering if that somewhat confusing terminological quirk has affected the OP's thinking on the matter i.e. that part of the scorn comes from misconception?

The block (might as well stick to the term) is a deflection of the strikers power brought about by as minimal a contact as you need on the extending limb. This contact involves a rolling of your own arm to apply accelerative leverage to the limb, pushing it further off line and usually ends with the fist curling in to deliver a numbing strike of your own onto the limb to discourage further use of it. If you need to, you can use that contact to assist the evasive move that is simultaneously performed as the block is merely the precursor to an attack of your own - plus the positional change makes it harder for the attacker to apply a combination of strikes.

The important thing to realise that it is not a static defensive move. In Lau, other than the point of stability you need as a strike impacts, you're never static anyway.

If mobility is denied you by qeography, for example if you're stuck in a corner, then the blocks do become more 'solid' as you seek to deflect the incoming punch using an actute angle contact and rebound from that contact into a strike of your own (fist to the throat/solar plexus or palm to the jaw/floating ribs are favourites here). Again, speed is not an issue. Your hands are up already and to succeed you need only move a few inches up and out. Hardly difficult to do that quicker than a punch that has to reach out from the attacker and across the space between you to score a hit.

Having put in a few clarifying paragraphs, a question to the OP may be in order. Rather than us trying to convince you that blocking is not in fact a futile tactic, perhaps you can explain to us why you think that it is?

I definitely garner the impression that what is in your minds eye is different than what is in ours and perhaps we can undo some of the ill-will you've drawn in by clarifying what you mean.

[Steel Tiger]

Exile, Sukerkin, two very good posts there my friends. You've made me think about this in more depth.

I have a feeling that a lot of this 'blocks don't work' thinking stems from a confusion brought about by traditional ways of training defensive techniques. I can well understand how someone might come to the conclusion that blocks don't work if they always come from the waist, as you will often see them being trained in Karate or TKD. Of course, they are not meant to be used from that position.

Exile mentioned the place of defence in curriculum. From my own point of view it is very important. I think along the lines that it is actually quite easy to hurt someone (doing so effeciently is another matter) but not so easy to defend ones self. As a result defensive techniques are a fundamental part of every class.

We have five blocking or parrying methods, named and defined by the five elemental agencies of Asian tradition. We train them constantly so that they become second nature. The interesting thing I have noticed is that while we train all the techniques equally, individuals develop a preference for a particular type, which they find easiest to do or understand.

Of these five methods only one could really be called a block. Something I define as intercepting and stopping an attack. As opposed to a parry which deflects an attack but does not significantly reduce its energy but directs it past you. Both are effective, but I prefer parries because they tend to hurt me less.

This brings me to catching attacks. I think Sukerkin is right that some think this involves grabbing a fist and stopping an attack dead. We have a parry called Fire which is a defensive technique that leads into qinna. It is called Fire because fire is supposed to have the property of clinging. The technique works from a deflecting parry and a grab (I think Sukerkin described it quite well actually).

A last point about blocking is what we call mousing and other arts call Gunting or limb destruction. This is using defence as attack. Others have mentioned it and it is very effective. We have a specific parry called Metal which is very similar to the deflecting punches seen in Wing Chun. It called Metal because metal, in the form of a blade, cuts.

[Selfcritical]

Are we here differentiating between blocking and covering?

[exile]

Are we here differentiating between blocking and covering?

It's not really clear. The OP was pretty vague on that kind of point. I've been assuming that what was intended was any kind of interception of a strike. There's a whole spectrum of possibilities, but the OP made no distinction amongst them, so.... ?

[Munkyjitsudo]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

[Sukerkin]

My friend, everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyones world view is the same.

Nonetheless, if you're going to espouse a position in an internet forum it's probably best to do it in one where there is a slim chance that someone is going to agree with you.

Myself and several other people far more qualified than I have tried to explain things as clearly as we can from an informed point of view. Many of us have actually been forced to use our training against just the sort of thing you're talking about and most of us have black belts we use to hold our trousers up.

If that doesn't persuade you, then what is the point of posting further? A simple "I don't agree and you can't change my mind" would serve you better.

[Touch Of Death]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...You can block a stong roundouse kick with multiple points of contact.
Sean

[exile]

if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands

This isn't quite an English sentence, Munky. And the referent of `it' isn't clear here. Can you rephrase it as a sentence? That way we'll have more of a chance of understanding what you're saying! :)



I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu

Since I've trained in a style of TKD which is still very closely related to Shotokan karate, and since we routinely train redirection of a punch, I'd have to say that... um... well, you've been misinformed. It really does helps a lot to train in a system before you form strong opinions about that system or think you know about it or whatever. Redirection of blows, as well as power blocks, are parts of all these systems.

By the way, Monky, the guy whose arm Itosu broke was a notorious streetfighter who knew every trick in the book and took pleasure in mixing it up with all comers. And Itosu broke his arm with a single shock block. So actually, I'm not sure what you're going on about here. And the guy who wrote the article on shock blocks is a security `contractor' for crowd control at NHL events who's been involved in around 300 violent outbreaks at football games. But that's OK, eh?



I... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble...

Whoa, lad, you're hyperventilating! Slow down and talk in English sentences. You're just firing unconnected phases at the reader here. How can we discuss these matters carefully and intelligently with you if you just fire words into cyberspace?



Iyou dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

I don't remember anyone speaking up in defense of time travel, Munky.

Meanwhile, I suggest you study the history of the South Korean 11th Marine division, who at the Battle of Tra Binh Dong 1967 pretty much decimated a much larger force of N. Vietnamese regulars in ferocious H2H fighting, much of it involving unarmed combat using the military TKD that they had been trained in, leaving ~250 NV dead. You might check out the 1966 Vietcong field directive instructing their fighters to avoid engagement with ROK forces at all costs, specifically because of their training in TKD. The blocking those ROK soldiers trained was effective enough for the Korean and Vietnam War battlefields, apparently...

Actually, there's a lot of history I think you need to learn about, judging from your posts, Munky, before forming your views... you don't want to come to conclusions based on ignorance, right? Best take a deep breath and try to learn a bit more, I think, about the arts in question... you really don't seem to know very much about them, I have to say. JMHO! :)

[Callandor]

And if you throw your blocks right, they are strikes.

That's what I was taught.

[tshadowchaser]

sorry but pugilism in America and maybe England was not nor can ever be seen as the hand to hand fighting styles of China, Okinawa. Yes fists where involved but the whole concept of how to stop an attack or how to evade one was different. If you had ever seen an old master block a punch or felt the impact of their arms and hands upon your arm you might see things in a different light. People today do not train the way they once did, nor do most people today harden their arms and body to the extent they once did.
Having seen arms and legs broken by blocks I certainly believe they can stop an attack. No not many today have the skill or ability to do so but i am sure there are some out there that still can.

[Fang]

bla bla bla bla bla... put up or shut up...

Since the aye's outweigh the nay's shouldn't the burden be on you to prove that we are all wrong? Perhaps you don't fully understand the concept of blocking? Even the essence of 'timing...' Certainly by the tone of your conviction you wouldn't mind posting video of you railroading through a competant opponent who disagrees? Or are we to just take your word for it?

[CuongNhuka]

Since the aye's outweigh the nay's shouldn't the burden be on you to prove that we are all wrong? Perhaps you don't fully understand the concept of blocking? Even the essence of 'timing...' Certainly by the tone of your conviction you wouldn't mind posting video of you railroading through a competant opponent who disagrees? Or are we to just take your word for it?

The next point becomes, doesn't this qualify as a threat/challenge? Which I believe are banned.... either way. What Munkyjistudo has going for him is a whole system. Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.
Now why do I get the feeling the OP and this gentleman are one in the same. And that this new permintation is a a way of dealing with the fact that every one hated his old form. I don't think their are TOO many people with this perverse thought process.

[Fang]

[quote=CuongNhuka;813057]The next point becomes, doesn't this qualify as a threat/challenge? Which I believe are banned.... either way.

It shouldn't be misconstrued as a threat at all, I didn't offer myself up in any way, nor would I...

What Munkyjistudo has going for him is a whole system. Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.

So his system is the only legitimate claim to fame huh? Obviously no other system in existance works? By the by the old kenpo mantra applies to more than just kenpo 'every strike is a block and every block is a strike...' When you see Choy Li Fut practitioners wearring studded bracers thats not just for show its also used for blocking allbeit with their own twist on the subject.

Now why do I get the feeling the OP and this gentleman are one in the same.

Could be.

[Odin]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

Ive blocked shots in a streetfight without any ''iron training'' my arms are fine.

by blocks I mean covering up ie boxing style though, are you refering to karate style blocks?

As an MMA fighter i would say to though that if it doesnt work for you then simply dont do it, its important to remember that everyone fights differently and what works for some may not work for others.

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

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[Kosho Gakkusei]

If were refering to okinawan/japanese TMA styles of blocking I think there is some confusion because in many cases blocking has been taught wrong and if you try to reproduce the technique by watching someone perform a block correctly you will in almost all cases get it wrong.

Most people observe incorrectly that blocks and parries originate from the arms. Some schools even teach the use of a box pattern. This is just not how poweful and effective blocks and parries are generated. The proper way is from the hips!! The arms are merely an extension of your center.

When a block originates from the arms utilizing a box pattern, openings are created when you move your arms off your center line where you will most likely get tagged. On the other hand when you use the hips, your hands don't need to leave center, they simply rise or fall and you don't create an opening and you actually have moved off line of the attack. Additionally the type of power needed to do damage to the attacker's limb will not be generated to do this you need the torque your hips can generate.

Still the issues of timing and targeting apply but blocking (limb destruction and redirection) are effective for use on the street. There is quite a bit of redirection in Boxing and MMA but using the hands to harm an opponents limbs is not as useful in that context due to the padding in the gloves and the conditioning of fighters arms. Generally speaking, professional fighters don't utilize seeking to injure the opponent so he can not continue as their strategy of choice. For a striker a knock out is a more decisive goal and grapplers seek the takedown in order to submit or ground and pound.

The problem we have here is people making observations based on assumptions and limited knowledge.

_Don Flatt

[Fang]

Ive blocked shots in a streetfight without any ''iron training'' my arms are fine.

its important to remember that everyone fights differently and what works for some may not work for others.

Exactly, and by underestimating the strategy that would use defense to injure you're only making the effectiveness of the particulars more plausible...

[exile]

When a block originates from the arms utilizing a box pattern, openings are created when you move your arms off your center line where you will most likely get tagged.

This is what comes from modern TMA schools taking the description `block' literally, when the movements in question were actually intended to be strikes of various kinds, or components of throws or other controlling moves. Obviously, if you do a hair- or ear-grab with, say, your left hand and rotate that hand outward in a classic `outward middle block' to pull the attacker's head back (typically after having established control over one or the other of his arms) to expose his throat or jaw to the followup finishing strike—a typical sequence portreyed in many TMA patterns—then your left hand and forearm are moving off the center line, but not as part of an actual block, parry, cover, interception or whatever. Same with so-called upper blocks and down blocks. Once these movements are understood to be parts of attacks to weak point on a (usually controlled) assailant's body, rather than defensive blocks, they won't be trained primarily as blocks. A hard, aggressive shock block such as Lawrence Kane describes is a very different kind of move...




On the other hand when you use the hips, your hands don't need to leave center, they simply rise or fall and you don't create an opening and you actually have moved off line of the attack. Additionally the type of power needed to do damage to the attacker's limb will not be generated to do this you need the torque your hips can generate.

This is the SOP of a `fence'-type defensive set-up. I've seen Gm. John Pelligrini and other Hapkido masters demonstrate this kind of deflection in seminars and have found in practice with seriously non-compliant partners that it's extremely effective. Very little force is needed to carry out the deflection, and it's true that what force is applied mostly comes from fairly small upper-body rotations driven from the hips. But those kinds of techs are implicit in a lot of TMA forms. Still, they have be trained hard and long to become automatic—that's going to be the case regardless of the intrinsic effectiveness of the technique, no?



Still the issues of timing and targeting apply but blocking (limb destruction and redirection) are effective for use on the street.

I agree... but only if blocks are trained for use on the street, as vs. controlled sparring or one-step type training involving much greater distances separating the combatants.

In the end, what is so striking is that most such discussions—to the extent that they're conducted rationally—come down to the issue of how a certain set of tactics, implementing a certain kind of strategy, is practiced—how realistic the conditions are, how long the practitioner spends training the techs in question, how many different attack types the practitioner arranges to encounter in the course of training, and so on.

I think of chess: the best openings in the world won't win a single game for you unless you study how they work and use them against a lot of other players—ideally, players who are to a certain degree better than you. If you can't win with a Sicilian Defense, does that mean that you've shown the Sicilian to be a bad opening? All you've shown is that you don't know enough about chess to use it effectively. In the hands of a master, it's a proven lethal tool. Same with actual blocking, as Itosu showed pretty conclusively more than 150 years ago in that famous fight with Tomoyose.

[Adept]

bla bla bla bla bla... the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs...

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.

[exile]

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.

Good point, Adept. This has been a problem with the discussion all along; it's not clear we're all talking about the same thing.

Is a block any move which uses contact to alter the momentum of an attacking move so that the attack misses the target? Does it only refer to a attack-momentum-shifting move which uses relatively high impact to do the shifting?...

??

[TheOriginalName]

I just wanted to thank the original poster at this point.

I'm new to MAs and MT - and your post has sparked a lot of discussion in regards to blocks. I have learnt a lot by reading through everyone's posts and i must agree with them that blocks are a vital part of any MA.

So a big thank you for putting up the original post.


Also - i believe there is a lot of truth in the football saying
"Offense win games, defence wins chapionships".

I think in every sport it is recognised that whilst a strong offense is paramount to success without a defence there is no hope of winning.
And whilst i am in no way saying that MAs are a sport (they are far far more complex than that!!) i believe that this is equally true.

I may have the best punch in the world - but if my opponent attacks first and i have no defence my punch is worthless.

And yes, at times the best defense is a good offense - but this is the exception that proves the rule.

Again, thanks for the original post - and thanks to all the in depth replies, they have been very educational.

Catch you all on the flipped side.

[Flying Crane]

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.


actually, i'd like to see a definition of "bla bla bla bla bla..."

I'm sure there is a pearl of wisdom in there and I'd hate to miss it...

[Flying Crane]

Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.


Well, Tibetan White Crane does not have blocks. At least not officially as such. But ya know what? After you have been working on it for a while, you begin to realize that they are also in there too. Can't exactly get by without any of them...

[Sukerkin]

At this juncture, I think that the central tenets have been covered quite well but I note that there is still nothing on the table to explain why blocks are not necessary or effective {other than the already infamously information-full "Bla Bla Bla ..." :lol:}.

My guess throughout has been that the OP has seen or been taught the basic, initial, 'blocks' that all arts have (well maybe not all from what has been said above) and reached the conclusion of ineffectivity (made up word :D) from that.

I can say with certainty that without blocking techniques I may well be blind {and thus unable to type this :eek:} and would certainly have a few dashing facial scars, so I'm very curious to learn that an art exists that does not 'believe' in blocking. Can anyone enlighten me further?

[Flying Crane]

I can say with certainty that without blocking techniques I may well be blind {and thus unable to type this :eek:} and would certainly have a few dashing facial scars, so I'm very curious to learn that an art exists that does not 'believe' in blocking. Can anyone enlighten me further?


Yup, this I can do.

Tibetan White Crane is a very aggressive art. Either you do it, or you don't. There is little room in the middle for indecision or "half-way".

So when you decide to do it, 'cause the jerk just won't leave you alone and he's about to actually start swinging at you, or he already has and you realize talking ain't gonna make the problem go away, then it's time to DO IT. So we go all out and attack and attack and attack some more. It's a pretty simple idea. We have these crazy swinging punches that come from all directions and hit like a wrecking maul. We just charge at you swinging with everything we got, as fast as we can, until you go down. Maybe you will block the first couple shots, but we just charge and keep coming until something lands, and another one lands, and another one lands and you go down, if you haven't already, and we literally run over the top of you. You see, Tibetan White Crane, if you believe in the Creation Mythology, was developed by a Lama who was meditating on a mountaintop. His meditation was disturbed by a fight between a "mountain ape" (probably a macaque of some kind, I understand a species lives in Tibet) and a crane, and he used what he witnessed to develop a new method. The crane won the fight, but this crazy swinging probably came from the ape. The art should really be called "crane and ape style" or something, it would be more accurate.

With that approach to fighting, since we immediately go on the hyper-aggression, blocks are often seen as not needed.

But like I said, once you are familiar with the material, you've practiced the forms a lot (and the forms have a lot more sophistication than the basic "charge 'em down" approach that I just described - I expect Exile, among others, probably understands what I am suggesting), you realize that there is a lot in there that can be used as a block, or at least a re-directing parry of some sort. The very movements used in these crazy swings often include an extreme pivot of the body that can act as an evasion for slipping by punches. And there is often an exaggerated reverse swing in the punch that can also be used as a deflection or parry or block, depending on how you chose to define it.

So to say "White Crane has no blocks" is sort of true. We don't teach or practice specific, deliberate blocking techniques that would look anything like an inward, outward, upward, or downward block that are staples to many arts. But we definitely do have defensive techiques for intercepting an attack that is coming in before we go into berserker mode and wreck the room.

[mjd]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????

[Steel Tiger]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????

This is a good question. A block can be an attack and an attack can definitely be a block (or at least a parry). What a block should never be is just a block. Now what I mean by this is a block should not be done simply for the sake of blocking. It should be used to develop another technique, a lead in if you will. If all you do is block and parry then you'd better hope your opponent gets exhausted because you're not going to stop him. So a block should lead to a grab for closing to grappling, or it should disable the limb, or create an opening for you to use a striking technique.

And remember what Kosho and Exile mentioned defence should come from the knees and waist so that the body is always protected in some way.

[exile]

there is a lot in there that can be used as a block, or at least a re-directing parry of some sort....there is often an exaggerated reverse swing in the punch that can also be used as a deflection or parry or block, depending on how you chose to define it.

...But we definitely do have defensive techiques for intercepting an attack that is coming in before we go into berserker mode and wreck the room.

What your post made me think of, FC—especially the bolded part in this excerpt—is the role of chambering motions in TKD and other karate-based arts and how of they're misinterpreted because of the packaging involved, seen as something useless or over-stylized—when in fact, it's these moves which are the literal blocks/deflections/interceptions/parries, and the `block' movements actually correspond to strikes on weak points like the throat,, collarbone, and groin. So you see somebody swing both arms back with the hands open, and then sweep forward into a `middle knifehand block'. But this is typically code for the deflection of a hard swinging punch to the outside, with the innermost elbow following round to smash the attacker's face; the out back-swinging knife edge, after completing its pain-inflicting redirection of the punch, works in a species of hikite to trap the attackers' damaged striking arm while the defender's hips and upper body pivot round, getting in very close to the attacker's head; the trapping hand anchors the attacker's arm, whilst the `knifehand block' which concludes the techniques is blocking nothing, but is instead targetting the attacker's throat or carotid sinus. I've recently started doing triple 1" board breaks, no dividers, for the first time since I broke my hand doing that with a punch two years ago; these days I only knifehand breaks, and I know that if I can break three one-inch boards in a stack, that a really experienced fighter is going to be able to do some major damage applying that same strike to someone's exposed neck or larynx. This is as I say a standard kind of defensive attack sequence in the karate-based arts, but the important point is that all the deflection takes place in that `exaggerated reverse swing'—exactly the right phrasing—which proceeds what advertises itself as the blocking movement, but which is actually the terminating strike of the combat sequence.

Similarly, a standard bunkai for the elaborate back swing of the so-called down block is presentation of a horizontal or spearing elbow strike (in connection with the hikite of the retracting fist trapping the attacker) to the forward-moving assailant, who will slam into it and then meet the incoming `down block' motion, aka a hammer-fist strike to the head, neck or groin.

So yes, I think I can see that, like any TMA that's been around for a while, TWC combines deflecting and attacking moves, using a certain amount of concealment. Makes most excellent sense!

[CuongNhuka]

Well, Tibetan White Crane does not have blocks. At least not officially as such. But ya know what? After you have been working on it for a while, you begin to realize that they are also in there too. Can't exactly get by without any of them...

From my understanding, it's largely the same with Choy Li Fut. The way they "block" is by using an attack as a block. What in Cuong Nhu is called a "blocking punch", or in some systems is called a "parry". Their has already been a discussion on this topic in general self defense.
Keep in mind, if you call it a block, parry, or strike to an opponents strike (what my Sensei has called blocks many times) it is effective. The OP and the people supporting his postion would be called a 0.5 demensionalist in Cuong Nhu. Or 0.3, I don't think such a claim has been made to a Cuong Nhu sudent before. So, it could easily be a whole new demension of thought for Cuong Nhu guys. If you would like an explaination of Cuong Nhu demension theory, let me know.

[Steel Tiger]

This is the SOP of a `fence'-type defensive set-up. I've seen Gm. John Pelligrini and other Hapkido masters demonstrate this kind of deflection in seminars and have found in practice with seriously non-compliant partners that it's extremely effective. Very little force is needed to carry out the deflection, and it's true that what force is applied mostly comes from fairly small upper-body rotations driven from the hips. But those kinds of techs are implicit in a lot of TMA forms. Still, they have be trained hard and long to become automatic—that's going to be the case regardless of the intrinsic effectiveness of the technique, no?


So yes, I think I can see that, like any TMA that's been around for a while, TWC combines deflecting and attacking moves, using a certain amount of concealment. Makes most excellent sense!

I'm just going to stray off topical a little here, but Exile has made two points that give an understanding as to why TMA are still around and why so many people cannot understand them when viewing them from the outside.

These two points also define the nature of defences in forms. A lot of what is seen as pointless arm waving to fill gaps between techniques are actually other techniques. Attacks are so overt so it is not surprising that they have drawn the spotlight and, in the case of Karate and TKD, been misinterpreted.

[Kacey]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????
Yes and no - all blocks can be used as attacks, and all attacks can be used as blocks; the names are just convenient ways to categorize techniques.

Let me try to explain what I mean here: if you attack me with, let's say, a punch to my face, and I block your punch so hard your hand goes numb or I break your arm - was that a block (because I prevented your punch from hitting me) or was it an attack (because I caused you physical pain/damage that limits your ability to continue attacking)? Likewise, you throw any hand technique, and I plant a front kick on your solar plexus, which, since my leg is longer than your arm, prevents your hand attack from hitting me - was my kick a block or an attack?

[CuongNhuka]

Cuong Nhu's concept of Blocking punch and the origin of what we call the forarm smash.

[Sukerkin]

QUOTE Exile:

"Makes most excellent sense!"

As do you, my friend :tup:.

Because yet again the Rep Gnomes say "No!", I thought I'd put my public IOU out on the table :D.

[MJS]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

Perhaps you can share with us, your method of blocking. The posts that you've been making have been less than friendly. You come across as if you have quite a bit of experience. Now, I don't know if you're basing your opinions off of what you've seen on Youtube clips, MMA fights, or something else, but rather than base how its done off of what others do, why don't you provide us with your method. Just because you see something on Youtube or the latest UFC, doesnt mean its the best way, that its going to work for everyone or that there are not other options.


Like so many other armchair, UFC QB's, you seem to be under this misconception, that every person you may encounter on the street, is going to be a professional fighter. There are many tools for blocking, such as a parry, an actual block, which by the way, is also a strike, as well as the crazy monkey method of blocking, that I believe you mentioned in another post.

So, what exactly are you suggesting? To have someone just keep their hands up, covering their head, and taking punch after punch on their arms? Sorry, but if you're basing the effectiveness of blocks on the UFC and boxing, keep in mind that these fighters are wearing gloves.

I'm guessing that the good portion of people here, myself included, have quite a bit of training time under our belts. I'm also going out on a limb and am going to say that a good portion have most likely used their training to defend themselves. That being said, just because you dont feel its going to work, doesnt mean that it didnt already work for someone else. ;)

Mike

[Flying Crane]

I'm just going to stray off topical a little here, but Exile has made two points that give an understanding as to why TMA are still around and why so many people cannot understand them when viewing them from the outside.

These two points also define the nature of defences in forms. A lot of what is seen as pointless arm waving to fill gaps between techniques are actually other techniques. Attacks are so overt so it is not surprising that they have drawn the spotlight and, in the case of Karate and TKD, been misinterpreted.


I think this is very true, and much of what is in traditional forms and kata was deliberately hidden to a certain extent. Often, the technique in the form is either vaguely suggested, or if it is quite definitely "there", it might need a little bit of tweaking before it would really work. I think perhaps this was deliberate. Anyone trying to learn the form on the sly would get something that doesn't quite work. But when the form is properly taught, along with the finer points and details including the necessary tweaks, suddenly the material becomes quite useful.

In learning a certain spear form, there is a sequence where we slam the spear downward in a horizontal position, followed by a snap forward. The obvious translation is that you are slamming down an enemy's weapon and immediately thrusting into him. But if you take the form literally, with your spear aiming directly at him, then you are probably trying to slam one skinny spear shaft directly on top of another parallel skinny spear shaft. You have a good chance of missing his spear shaft completely. But if you understand that in order for the tech to work you need to actually reposition so your spear slams down at a bit of a horizontal angle so that you have a greater chance of catching his shaft, then the tech is effective. But in the form, the tech is suggested and needs a little tweak before it becomes practical. Hidden stuff.

[Touch Of Death]

I think this is very true, and much of what is in traditional forms and kata was deliberately hidden to a certain extent. Often, the technique in the form is either vaguely suggested, or if it is quite definitely "there", it might need a little bit of tweaking before it would really work. I think perhaps this was deliberate. Anyone trying to learn the form on the sly would get something that doesn't quite work. But when the form is properly taught, along with the finer points and details including the necessary tweaks, suddenly the material becomes quite useful.

In learning a certain spear form, there is a sequence where we slam the spear downward in a horizontal position, followed by a snap forward. The obvious translation is that you are slamming down an enemy's weapon and immediately thrusting into him. But if you take the form literally, with your spear aiming directly at him, then you are probably trying to slam one skinny spear shaft directly on top of another parallel skinny spear shaft. You have a good chance of missing his spear shaft completely. But if you understand that in order for the tech to work you need to actually reposition so your spear slams down at a bit of a horizontal angle so that you have a greater chance of catching his shaft, then the tech is effective. But in the form, the tech is suggested and needs a little tweak before it becomes practical. Hidden stuff.The same can be said for Kenpo knife techs.:ultracool
Sean

[Flying Crane]

The same can be said for Kenpo knife techs.:ultracool
Sean

Yes, I believe this is true in kenpo forms as well.

Ever notice that most of the techs found in the forms are the "kata version" of the tech? And often that Kata Version isn't quite as good as the real version as taught. The tech is suggested in the form, but the details are somewhat left out.

At least that's my take on it. I don't know if those who invented the kenpo forms did that deliberately.

[Touch Of Death]

Yes, I believe this is true in kenpo forms as well.

Ever notice that most of the techs found in the forms are the "kata version" of the tech? And often that Kata Version isn't quite as good as the real version as taught. The tech is suggested in the form, but the details are somewhat left out.

At least that's my take on it. I don't know if those who invented the kenpo forms did that deliberately.Forms can be in an entirly different context than the reality and nuance of the techs it holds. You can flow in circles or you can accent individual points of contact. When you flow there are no blocks or strikes, just good or bad motion, tight or not so tight, contoured and uncontoured, strong or weak stances, with good or bad posture. Making these forms work on the street requires individual attention to variations of attack and purposefull attention to that points where flesh meets flesh. Yes you gotta change the angle to stay neutral to any given situation and the stories that govern a technique choice are generaly not addressed in a form.
Sean

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I was just looking thru some old seminar notes and from one in paricular seminar with Kyoshi Pat Kelly. I wrote, "You must get blocking out of your mindset. All that is necessary is to move strikes past your shoulders and kicks past your hips. Anything beyond that is for manipulation."


_Don Flatt

[exile]

I was just looking thru some old seminar notes and from one in paricular seminar with Kyoshi Pat Kelly. I wrote, "You must get blocking out of your mindset. All that is necessary is to move strikes past your shoulders and kicks past your hips. Anything beyond that is for manipulation."


_Don Flatt

Sounds right to me, so far as deflection goes. John Pellegrini likes to say that the first rule of self-defense is, don't get hit, and a lot of the techs in, say, Combat Hapkido drills (many of which seem to look awfully similar to subcomponents of TKD hyungs) are just along the lines you quoted.

But there's another kind of `block' which is a counterattack on an assailant's attacking limb, the kind described here (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp). For this kind of limb destruction, blocking movements correspond not to deflection moves but to a kind of terminating strike.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sounds right to me, so far as deflection goes. John Pellegrini likes to say that the first rule of self-defense is, don't get hit, and a lot of the techs in, say, Combat Hapkido drills (many of which seem to look awfully similar to subcomponents of TKD hyungs) are just along the lines you quoted.

But there's another kind of `block' which is a counterattack on an assailant's attacking limb, the kind described here (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp). For this kind of limb destruction, blocking movements correspond not to deflection moves but to a kind of terminating strike.


That is a very nice point Exile and a good link. For myself and in IRT I do not block at all. There is of course evasion, dodging, parrying, counter striking and of course limb destruction techniques. However, like John Pellegrini I to believe what is most important is simply not to get hit.