More Modern Arnis Groups!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

As I said before, people will be coming out of the wood work! The latest is Datu Shishir Inocalla. I recieved this today!


To my bothers and sisters in Modern Arnis,
Merry Christmass and Happy New year to you all. I am writting this letter to you hoping you will support me in my crusade to unify Filipino Martial Arts in USA. Attach is my letter and appeal to you. If you are interested in my call. Please let me know immediately. I am looking forward to hearing from you. As we are all prodigy of GM Remy Presas. I salute you all for following his footsteps. I recognized the differences we may have about each other. But I know we all have a common ground- our love for him and the spread of his Art. Maraming Salamat sa inyong lahat at Mabuhay and Arnis.

Sincerely Yours,
Shishir Inocalla
604-861-8085
604-264-5119
inocallashir2@aol.com
www.arnisaction.com

I'm not saying who has the right to do what. It's very interesting to see a new player in the game. As was said about me, that there were some not too heart warming stories about me, we must remember that all the groups have these types of "stories " about them to.

Only time will tell which groups are doing the arts for the right reasons.

:samurai: :asian:

If you're gonna burn in Hell, you might as well have the best seat!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
Datu Shishir Inocalla.

Often mentioned but rarely seen in my experience.



www.arnisaction.com


I find this site very difficult to navigate and read, at least in Netscape. I'll leave it to Kaith to say more on this. I see from the site that Mr. Inocalla is working on Arnis, the movie. It's not at all clear to me what the goal of his organization(s) is. Is his organization going to be granting rank--a true competitor to the IMAFs--or is it only to promote the art through publicity?

I note that he was in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III, the movie I was watching in the hospital when my daughter was born (as I often remind her):
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Inocalla,+Shishir

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Attached to the first post.




Shishir Inocalla

Nov. 19, 2001

Dear Guru's, Sensie, Sifu,Datus,GMs,

Greetings, kumusta po kayo. On behalf of the International Arnis Federation/Arnis Philippines-member POC-Philippine Olympic Committee, PSC Philippine Sports Commission and PIGSSAI (Philippine Indigenous Games and Sports Savers Association under (POC) Philippine Tourism Authority. IMAF-Philippines. I am inviting you to participate and join our crusade to unify and organize Arnis, Kali, Escrima Filipino Martial arts cultural and sports Association. I am in the process of organizing in the USA and in Canada. This will be the Arnis, Kali, Escrima Association that is recognized by the Philippine Government under Sports and Tourism. And Office of the President-Republic of the Philippines. Our late Grandmaster Remy Presas was the Chairman for International Affairs for Arnis Philippines and myself, Shishir Inocalla was the Vice-Chairman since 1990.

During Prof. Presas tribute in Manila. All styles of Filipino Martial have given their full support to work together to propagate Filipino Martial Arts all over Philippines and the world. Under PIGSSAI and IMAF - Philippines. Every Sunday in front of the DOT building in Luneta we have all day Filipino Martial Arts Festival demonstration and seminars. Headed by Eng. Dion Diaz-Deputy Manager of PTA Phil. Tourism Authority and President of PIGSSAI. Our group started during the 100-year anniversary of the Philippine Independence Day June 14, 1998.
I am asking you, your students and other Masters and styles of all Filipino Martial Arts in Canada and the USA to support this unity "Pag-kakaisa". We are stronger if we work together. Arnis, Kali, Escrima for ALL. These are the following activities I started in Canada and the Philippines. I suggest we should do the following.

Forming the Group:
Suggested Names:
Filipino Martial Arts Association/Federation
Arnis/Kali/Escrima Association
Arnis USA
Arnis Canada/ Arnis BC

Activities
We need to register students and schools all over USA. This is for all styles of martial arts. Arnis sports is a universal system of stick fighting and Buno at Mano-Mano the empty hand/foot fighting, Anyo forms. Can be introduced as a sport. We can design the rules, run clinics, and friendly competitions regionally, nationally and internationally.

Membership will receive a quarterly newsletter, club certification and individual membership card. Our groups will get the recognition from AP/ IAF/ PIGSSAI and the new Arnis USA. Members also get discount rate for the seminars, tournaments and products of the association. Once we have this unity we can approach the American Olympic Association and apply for Arnis to be included in their sports event. Arnis Philippines is now a member of Philippine Olympic Committee.

Arnis TV/ Movie
Shishir in coordination wth IAF-IMAF Phil. and Philippine Tourism Authority under PIGSSAI is producing Arnis TV to promote Arnis all over the world. He will be shooting seminars, tournaments in Canada and the US. This will be aired in the Philippines and in other community TV stations in North America. The format will be instructional, news, guests and friendly competitions. Shishir already finished 13 episodes and working to air in British Cilumbia this fall. The tapes are now available in Videos. Shishir also had finished "Ultimate Fight" movie highlighting Arnis co-starring Ernie Reyes Jr/Sr, Kimo and Corin Nemec. Now available in DVD, Video stores in North America.

Website
Website is now under construction under www.Arnisaction.com. Everyone is welcome to contribute in our site. Lots of information regarding the activities of the Filipino Martial arts.


Canada/ USA/ Philippines
Shishir is now in Vancouver organizing the Canadian Arnis group. In BC there is opportunity for Filipino Martial arts to be affiliated with BC Sports and other provincial governments. We have also started Arnis Canada for the Federal level. Induction of officers will be January 26 in Richmond. BC. In USA, we will have to do the same organization to get recognition from the sports institution. We are stronger if we are united, organize and have one voice.
In the Philippines, we are lobbying for Congress to pass Arnis Bill. This will help Filipino Martial Arts in the Philippines and the world to get recognition and support. Once Philippines see Arnis is active and alive here in the west, the government and the Filipino people will give their support to Arnis. Once this happen in the Philippines, we can get the support we need to approach our own government here in Canada and USA. THIS WILL ONLY HAPPEN IF WE WORK AS A TEAM.

If you need more information on this, please call me at the following telephone numbers. 604-264-5119, 604-215-2592 and 604-861-8085. Or my e-mail inocallashir2@aol.com.
Please pass this letter to other Sympathizers, Guro's and instructor's that maybe interested in the propagation of Filipino Martial Arts.

For more information check our website: www.arnisaction.com
Thank you and Maraming Salamat po,

Shishir Inocalla

Vice-President for IAF and PIGSSAI
Chairman for International Affairs- Arnis Philippines

[Cthulhu]

An Arnis movie featuring Kimo? Shudder

I think the guy has good intentions, in wanting to have unity among the FMA, but I doubt it could happen. Look at Japanese/Okinawan karate...I doubt all the various systems will ever unify. Even though many of the styles share kata, with minor variation, I doubt there will ever be a single governing body for every karate style. This is likely going to be the same with the FMA.

Kimo? Good lord, couldn't they have used someone more appropriate? Snoopy would have been a better choice, for crying out loud.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

PIGSSAI, MARPPIO--the Filipino groups are choosing awful acronyms.

I would like to hear whom Mr. Inocalla would consider to be the current head/grandmaster of Modern Arnis? Dr. Presas I presume?

[bloodwood]

This just won't float here in the USA, not a chance in hell. We all can't get along as it is and we know each other. Let him come on here at martial talk and dance with the devil a little bit and maybe he'll float back down to earth with the rest of us. It's christmas and he has vissions of sugar plumbs dancing in his head.:lol:

DATU TIM -- save me a seat, I'm probably gonna need it!!!

[Mao]

Hey Renegade,
What makes you think your gonna burn in he--?

[Progressive]

Off hand or Backhanded remark to say the least. Shishir is the most senior Datu in Modern Arnis and is calling all to support him in insuring that Professors legacy continues. If anything I would expect you to support him, not undercut his authority. Of course I have seen this type of political back back stabbing before. Rally to my side because everyone else is a pretender! Yeah Right!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Progressive
Shishir is the most senior Datu in Modern Arnis and is calling all to support him in insuring that Professors legacy continues. If anything I would expect you to support him, not undercut his authority. Of course I have seen this type of political back back stabbing before. Rally to my side because everyone else is a pretender!

The Professor was clear in his will--Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney were to succeed him, either in that order or as co-equals depending upon whom you ask. All of those chosen to lead Modern Arnis--the MOTTs--were not datus and were not, I believe, as senior as the datus. (Possibly Dr. Schea has comparable seniority.) I don't think that there can be any doubt that the Professor's final intention was to leave the seven MOTTs in charge.

That having been said, Mr. Inocalla's intentions have not been clearly spelled out in his wordy e-mail, I think. It's therefore difficult to support him yet. To the extent that he hopes to unify all FMA, I wish him well though I cannot be optimistic. It isn't at all clear to me that he wants to head Modern Arnis, nor what authority he foresees his group having.

I am not sure what offended you here--statements made have been along the lines of "I think the guy has good intentions...but I doubt it could happen", which is an opinion and a prediction.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Renegade
As I said before, people will be coming out of the wood work! The latest is Datu Shishir Inocalla. I recieved this today!


I believe this is what has Progressive so hot and bothered. Of course, you would have to be blind to not be suspicious of this Inocalla feller's timing. Why does he choose to come out at this time, after Presas's death?

Again, his goals are good for uniting the FMA (though probably quite impossible), and like arnisador said, his intentions are a bit vague at this point, but his timing is very...odd.

Cthulhu
dreading the start of another monster thread
<mod hat/on> *sigh*

[Black Grass]

When I read the post it seems to have nothing to do with Modern Arnis specifically but arnis and FMA in general. For those who don't know PIGSSAI has been active in the Philippines for a few years and is about promoting indginoues sports including the FMA.

Do I think that it will unite all sytles under a single governing body. Well no, but who cares at least it is an attempt at promoting the FMA. I would like to see more tourneys and the sport side pushed a little more. If silat can do it why not the FMA . And if they can get it going in the Phil. why not in the US. At least the disputes here are much more civil then back in the Phil. And unlike WEKAF, I believe that PIGSSAI has some Philippine gov't backing.

Black Grass

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Black Grass
When I read the post it seems to have nothing to do with Modern Arnis specifically but arnis and FMA in general.[...]Do I think that it will unite all sytles under a single governing body. Well no, but who cares at least it is an attempt at promoting the FMA.

No argument. To the extent that the intent is to promote all FMA, that's great. Even in the likely event that it's a less than total success it could still be useful. There are certainly precedents for meta-organizations that might have the IMAFs, MARPPIO, and organizations representing other FMA included.

The FMA could use more publicity both here and in the Philippines, and it's good that people are trying. I wonder how it will impact the Modern Arnis situation however.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I've invited Shishir to be a member of our forum. I think that it's good to get as many different Modern Arnis people involed in our growing community.

:asian:

[bloodwood]

In my last post


This just won't float here in the USA, not a chance in hell. We all can't get along as it is and we know each other. Let him come on here at martial talk and dance with the devil a little bit and maybe he'll float back down to earth with the rest of us. It's christmas and he has vissions of sugar plumbs dancing in his head.

I made light of a call for unity in the modern arnis community. This was not my intent. Just trying to make a point.

On a serious note what I have a problem with is why are people without broad ranging exposure trying to unify the art? So they can be THE MAN or so their group can be THE GROUP. It would seem that way. To unite modern arnis on a world wide level could only have been done by one man and he is no longer with us.
Had the Professor decided to bring the different countries in closer contact with each other and make a call for unity it was possible. But now, by the Professor's own doing there is no one big enough to have the support to acomplish a task of this magnitude.
Remy should have named a successor well before his illness set in and exposed this person to the world as such. Everyone thinks they are invincible and will live forever, but we all know this not to be true and need to prepare for the future. Because of the size and wide scope of Modern Arnis this should have been done.
With this not being done we are left in our current situation.

Not to lessen all the trouble in Afganistan, what is happening now over there is a good example to use in a question of unity.
The northern alliance and the victorious tribes are now fighting for power. Recently they have agreed on a new leader. WHY?? because of the outside pressure from the United States. Left on their own, the fighting between the winning factions would continue indefinately.
We, on the other hand have NO outside pressure to unify or fear of retribution if we don't.
So why would any of the new groups that have formed since Remy's passing, put themselves under the rules of another group or leader who has no more authority or not that much more knowledge than they do.
As it stands, without this outside pressure we will remain as we are, the same but different. Modern Arnis will change as time goes on and the different groups add their flavor to the art. There might not be one international group but it will survive. It is too much fun for it not to last. I once heard someone say that if you don't maintain something it will turn into something else. As for modern arnis, an art that has always been changing, maybe it's not so bad.
MODERN ARNIS IS THE ROCK AND ROLL OF THE MARTIAL ARTS.
From the sublime to the ridiculous it's all there for us. Just pick whatever level of the art is best for you and with whatever group fill you needs.
Let's rock!!!!!

[GouRonin]

I know why Renegade:erg: is gonna burn in hell.
:fart:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
I've invited Shishir to be a member of our forum. I think that it's good to get as many different Modern Arnis people involed in our growing community.

Yes--we've had a productive discussion with a representative of the IMAF, Inc. concerning the bifurcation of the IMAF and an interesting series of exchanges with Mr. Presas concerning MARPPIO. Hopefully the heat will settle down concerning Mr. Worden and we'll have a productive series of discussions then. I regret that we do not have a representative of Mr. Delaney's group posting about their organization!

[Bob Hubbard]

Several invites were sent a while back. Perhaps some of you may have better luck, due to long term relationships with members of his organization and would be kind enough to send a few more invites?

:asian:

[Keil Randor]

Ok..... If you're going to -unify- Modern Arnis, I only see 4 players.
Jeff Delanys IMAF
Dr. Shea's IMAF
Tim Hartmans WMAA
and the Presas Family.

The rest are all giving the apearence of "Johnny come latelys" whos interest seems to be more powerplay, than serious intent for the arts continued survival.

Of these 4 groups, the only one that doesn't appear to be beating on their chest about how they are the "official, authorized, etc" successor is the WMAA. The other 3 groups go out of the way about it. The Presas Family due to the blood tie and ties to the early days ( legitimate reasons IMHO), the JD IMAF (being the "original" MA group), the RS IMAF (MOTTS). The 2 IMAF groups are locked in a pissing contest, and there are several yet to be cleared up questions on their rights of succession. (publish the will perhaps?)

These 4 groups are the -only- ones I've heard of, and IMHO, the -only- onces with any legitimate claim to being a successor group. All these other folks suddenly showing up...makes me suspicious. Its nice that 1 groups so vocal in their defence of their leader...and the death bed pics are nice too. and that others have "trained extensivly" (IE: saw him for 5 minutes 3 times last year), etc. etc. But I think the true successor would have to be someone who has been out there, day after day, hanging and banging with GM Presas over an extended period of time....not these, "people". Perhaps they are all very accomplished martial artists...but...are they truely "leaders" in the Modern Arnis World?

Hey guys.... I know a guy who once used the same rest room as GM Presas...can he declare himself the "Unifier" now too?

[Mao]

Hey Keil,
Point of interest; IMAF,inc. is NOT in a pissing contest with anyone. What point would that serve? Who would really benefit? What led you to believe that there was a pissing contest? Did you get pissed on? Did you get pissed off? Did you wanna join in on one? Did you wanna start one? Make sure that you don't piss into the wind. :D

[Mao]

And by the way, isn't the leader of the WMAA who has said several times that he is the highest ranked "active" black belt in modern anris. Isn't this one of the points of contention? Well, then that would include the WMAA in the club that you say they are not a member of, THE CHEST BEATING CLUB. SO THERE! TAKE THAT! CAN YOU DEAL WITH IT? :rofl:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mao,
you go girl! Givem H*ll! Hey, you're talking about me! DOH!!!!!!!!!!

:eek:

[Mao]

I just gotta quote Whoopass here..........WOOOOOO!
Hey, that felt pretty good. :D

[Bob Hubbard]

Mao,
The problem with your quote, is that, as far as I know, unlike the guy who "originally" used that phrase, none of you folks have been known to were a feather boa...... or is there something y'all wanna tell us? :D

Slightly off topic, I'm now accepting donations to get Keil an umbrella......:rofl:

[Mao]

Actually, feather boa's tickle too much.......so I've heard. It's just the Nature Boys' "war hoop" I think. At least thats the way Woopass uses it ....I think. Now, maybe if it was a leather boa..................

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Datu Shishir wanted me to post this.

January 12, 2002
To Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

Dear Datu Tim Hartman,

Thank for posting my letter to you and to all our brothers and sisters in Modern Arnis and the Filipino Martial Arts Community in your martialartstalk.com "Modern Arnis" Column.

I want to clarify some issues raise by the moderator. Where do I stand? And whom I give support regarding the "Modern Arnis groups in USA?

First, I want to commend you for propagating "Modern Arnis" and continuing the Legacy of Grandmaster Remy Presas. Professor Presas is my mentor, teacher and adopted father anyone that loves him and his Art I love them too. In the early 80's, he nurtured me in the art of "Modern Arnis" and the FMA. 1984 he promoted and gave me certification to 6th degree BB and "Datu". He also helps me with my "Balisong" book and tapes I produced. We traveled together and shared vision together. In the 1990, we represented America's to the first International Arnis Congress in the Philippines. He was the Chairman for Arnis Philippines International Affairs Committee. He appointed me as his Vice-Chairman (see letter in my www.arnisaction.com site photo gallery). 1992-97 I was contracted by Golden Harvest to do Ninja Turtle Movie and later by Fox/Saban for the TV Series. We communicated long distance and everyone in the martial arts community. 1995 during my break I went back to the Philippines, Professor ask me to activate and re-organize "Modern Arnis" in the Philippines. He appointed me as his President. Since then, he had been back and forth Philippines working with our group there. In his last visit 1998 Modern Arnis became nation wide, he created IMAF Philippines. We are working in coordination with PIGSSAI (affiliated with Phil Tourism Authority) and supports Arnis Philippines (member Phil. Olympic Committee/ Phil. Sports Commission). When Professor is in Victoria recuperating from his operation. I was back and forth Philippines and Vancouver. I have visited him and talk to him regularly even in his last days. He had asked me how my work in the Philippines. We talk about his book we are publishing there, Our plan in Bicol farm and working with the Phil. Government to give support to Arnis in the Philippines and the world. Everytime his students visit him he calls me and get me to talk to them. He wanted me to work with Rolan Dantes and Dr. Shea. I have met with Dr. Shea he updated me of the Prof. condition and IMAF. When Prof. passed away. I have volunteered to take Prof. to his hometown in Hinigaran, Negros Occidental, Philippines. This was an honor for me and a great sacrifice. I have to break a contract with my new TV series and face a family feud. The New York terror attack did not help either. It was a miracle that Professor actually made it home to Hinigaran and I thank everyone for doing their part. Dr. Shea for assisting me financially, to Evette Wong for giving permission to have Prof. body ship to the Philippines. To Prof. brother and sisters for allowing us to bury Prof. in Hinigaran. To the First Family of Presas for doing everything they can in the Philippines and in Canada to have Prof. last wish fulfilled. To be buried in his hometown. To IMAF Phil. for securing and connecting with the local people and families. To Eng. Diaz, PIGSSAI members and Rolan Dantes for coordinating with the well wishers and government. Finally after a month of waiting and 3 funerals Prof. was given a hero's parade and burial in Hinigaran. After the burial The First Family of Presas and PIGSSAI gave tribute to the Professor. All Filipino Martial Arts Masters and students present in the tribute bowed for unity in the FMA world. The Presas children headed by Dr. Remy Presas Jr. had announced the formation of MARPPIO. PIGSSAI and ARNIS Philippines had supported this move. Not only they have the legal authority for Modern Arnis in the Philippines, but also it is a Family tradition to inherit their parent's assets. This becomes a big issue for all of us because Prof. also authorized, promoted students and left a will before his death. This problem arises in the Philippines where Prof. wife and children has the right and corporate registration for Modern Arnis and books. However, after talking to the Presas Family they have recognized IMAF PHILIPPINES. After spending time with the Prof. Presas Children, I felt sadness because they are left out in the whole organization of IMAF. I also commend them for their decision to follow their father's legacy. I felt their sincerity and gigantic work ahead of them.

In regards to IMAF USA. My professional opinion is for us to follow Prof.Presas will and wishes. I have not personally seen the Prof. will. However, in my understanding Dr. Shea is the Chairman of IMAF USA/successor and Prof. executor. Jeff Delany is his co-successor. If this is the Prof. wish we should all respect that and help them in their big job. As far as the other Modern Arnis groups and Instructors/leaders we should also support them for propagating Prof. mission and taking on the huge work Prof. has left all of us.

My role now is to continue my work with the Philippines and all other Filipino Martial arts in the different countries. I will do this under the Philippine Government body of Arnis-IAF to the different government , Filipino communities and sports institution worldwide. I know it is a gigantic job, but Prof. gave us the knowledge and the spirit lets us use it for the good of everyone.

I wish you all the success in your work. Let me know if there is anything I can assist you.

Your brother in Modern Arnis

Sincerely,
Shishir Inocalla
VP- International Arnis Federation

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a few quick comments on the web site http://www.arnisaction.com/
since it was requested a bit back....

design : design is a bit dark, and non-traditional. Heavilly optimized for IE, earlier versions of Netscape will encounted problems. I also encountered problems when attempting to view using the latest Mozzila build, however I believe those issues to lie with the browser, not the site. Design is good when viewed from a non-trad. design perspective.

Overall, its not bad. :) Its "Artsy" and sometimes, thats a good thing.


:asian:

[arnisador]

Thanks to Mr. Inocalla for having this info. posted here. It is most certainly appreciated.

[Rob_Broad]

When t is time for Renegade to go burn in hell, I will be holding the gates open and passing out the beer on the way in. There is nothiwrong with going to hell, atleast it is warm and there is no snow.

[GouRonin]

As much as I liked to go to hell with you guys I'm sure my wife won't let me if she knows I might get into trouble.
:rofl:

[Rob_Broad]

I thought you had the map to get there. Oh well, we'll figure something out. Besides we know that you can stay behaved forever.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I would like to congratulate Datu Worder on his efforts on starting a new Modern Arnis group. It is called the WMAC World Modern Arnis Coalition.

Good Luck Kelly,

Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance
www.wmarnis.com

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
I would like to congratulate Datu Worder on his efforts on starting a new Modern Arnis group. It is called the WMAC World Modern Arnis Coalition.


I hadn't heard of this! Is there a web site?

[Dieter]

Hi,

there is not a website yet but a forum, similar to this one.
The adress is

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/

Best regards from Germany


Datu Dieter Knüttel

[donald]

Originally posted by arnisador
The Professor was clear in his will--Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney were to succeed him, either in that order or as co-equals depending upon whom you ask.


Sir,
Not being a student of the late Mr.Presas' Modern Arnis, or even a practioner of the F.M.A.. Maybe you will excuse this question. From what I have read, or thought I read. Was that Mr.Hartman
(a.k.a. Renegade) was the "new" head instructor for Modern Arnis? Apparently this is incorrect?
Salute in Christ,
Donald :asian:

[tshadowchaser]

A few thoughts from someone who is not a member of any of the Mordern Arnis groups. From reading the original two post from the gentelman in the Phillipians I may be reading a few things into what I saw that the rest of you may not.
First this gentelman wants to bring all of the Fillipino arts under one umbrella. I doubt this will ever happen. It's been tried befor by Geronimo when he was still studing Karate ( befor his organization made him a Grandmaster of Sikaran).
2> How many organizations, outside of the 'Modern Arnis" family, that are here in the U.S. and Canada are going to let someone in the Philippians dictate rules regulations testing and rank for them.
3> dose this mean dues testing fees etc are sent back to the "home land" like TKD groups?
I do congradulate the diffrent Modern Arnis groups and espesicialy those people on this forum for trying to open dialog with one another . this is always a positive approch. I do wish you all the best in your learning and teaching .
My comments on this thread as I have said are from an outsiders point of seeing things and not ment in any way to be anything but another way of readings parts of the posts that had not been talked about.
Shadow

[knifeman.dk]

Hi there
It seems that people are more interested in who does what instead of what they are actually doing.
All though we are placed way up north in Wikingland, The Danish Arnis Federation can only say: JOIN, fight together, help each other, unite, or at least have a beer together (or a few and see what happens:cheers:
We hope that by joining wmaa we can be a brick to the puzzle and hopefully help out (some how)..:asian:
Keep spreading the word

[Yari]

Originally posted by knifeman.dk
JOIN, fight together, help each other, unite, or at least have a beer together (or a few and see what happens:cheers:
We hope that by joining wmaa we can be a brick to the puzzle and hopefully help out (some how)..:asian:
Keep spreading the word


I got to agree on this... and say that Toby (knifeman) really is good with a knife. If you want to learn something about using a knife, he's the man.

/Yari

[arnisador]

Originally posted by donald
Originally posted by arnisador
From what I have read, or thought I read. Was that Mr.Hartman
(a.k.a. Renegade) was the "new" head instructor for Modern Arnis? Apparently this is incorrect?


It's complicated. There is no clear head of Modern Arnis right now.

[Bob Hubbard]

Sadly, since the Grandmasters death, it sometimes seems everyone who ever met him is now starting a "Unifying" organization.

My personal opinion I will reserve, but I believe the actual list of "true" sucessors and heirs and 'unifiers' to be very short. Very short indeed.

Many of those professing to be the flag bearer have been inactive in the Modern Arnis world for quite some time, or out of touch with the Grandmaster in the year preceeding his illness.

As always, trust your instincts and train with who you believe will benifit you the best.

I agree with Knifeman... lets all have a beer together. :)

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dieter
there is not a website yet but a forum, similar to this one.
The adress is

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/


Good luck to Mr. Worden and his group! I look forward to seeing an official statement of intent from the WMAC. What precisely is its purpose? I presume from comments that have been made here that they will recognize Dr. Presas as the head of Modern Arnis, not one of the MOTTs?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by knifeman.dk
We hope that by joining wmaa we can be a brick to the puzzle and hopefully help out (some how)

As a fellow WMAA member I say Welcome! Mr. Hartman is an extremely knowledgeable martial artist and an exceptionally good instructor as you no doubt know. His focus is strongly on learning, spreading, and enjoying the art.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Sadly, since the Grandmasters death, it sometimes seems everyone who ever met him is now starting a "Unifying" organization.


As far as I can tell--and this has been discussed in great detail on this board--we have:

IMAF (http://www.professorpresas.com) (Jeff Delaney)
IMAF, Inc. (http://www.modernarnis.net/) (Randi Schea)
MARPPIO (http://www.modernarnis.com/) (Remy P. Presas)
IADLF (http://www.arnisdeleon.com/) (Anding de Leon)

These have all claimed headship (in the last case, of a new, breakaway system rather than of Modern Arnis). Other important Modern Arnis organizations include those run by Mr. Hartman, Mr. Inocalla, and now Mr. Worden. To the best of my knowledge none of these last three have claimed headship of Modern Arnis. Other major players include, in no particular order, Dieter Knuttel, Dan Anderson, Roland Dantes, and the MOTTs.

Again, searching this board will turn up much information on this subject!

[Dieter]

Hi

this is a very tricky subject.
It is for example very hard to veryfy the statement of Mr. Delaney, because he manages the website where his own sucessorship was proclaimed. Rand Shea sure has his reasons, together with the Motts, to split from Delaney, a topic that was deeply dicussed in this forum.
Regarding some other prominent Modern Arnis players and I will not mention any names, because it is not my job to reveal these things, I have infomations from 4 different sources, that facts are different than the public displayed opinion in several forums.
I will not go into detail, but there are reasons for many of the prominent players, that they do not want to be headed by someone who is their junior and I can understad Tim, but also others, in that regard.
Anyway, the problem is, that hardly anybody has all the facts and usually one only displays the facts, that places oneself in a good light, which is a very human behavior.

The problem is, that the Professor never built up a successor over the years, that was accepted by all. (Nobody did it btw: Morihei Ueshiba, Yip Man, Ed Parker, Gichin Funakoshi and many others, nobody created a sucessor, that could keep the system together as one)
The newly created title of the Master of Tapi-Tapi, the fact, that he did not appoint the highest people in his system to lead the association created and creates disturbances with the lower belts who do not understad this decision, the higher ones who have a even harder time to belive it and by some who just don´t belive that he did it this way anyway, maybe due to facts, that are unknown to the public.

There is a lot of discussion about words too. One of the most lively one is: what does "active" mean?.
For myself, I started Arnis in 1978, been graded 6th Dan and Datu in 1996 and I have been hardly seen in the US on seminars. Does this mean I am not active? I teach about 20 Modern Arnis seminar a year (I started teching Arnis seminars in 1980) and I have produced at least 80 - 100 Modern Arnis black belts, ranked up to 5th Dan directly by the Professor and I have students of students who already produced black belts. Others might have a similar vita, just not known to most of you.

But again for myself, I am not and I will not throw my towel in the ring and say "I am also the sucessor". (Aren´t we all who carry on the legacy of the Professor?)
I also don´t want to be in competition with any of the other high ranked Modern Arnis players, because many have merits in their own way.
We only can guess about the reason for the different decisions, that Jeff Delaney, Randi Shea, Kelly Worden, Remy P. Presas, Tim Hartman etc. did, but the more information will come to the surface, the clearer some of these decisions will be understod.

Anyway, I think we all know that there will never be the ONE unifying person art the top of Modern Arnis again. That was the Professor. These shoes are too big for all of us.
I think the best way we can honor the Professor is by training well and teaching well, producing good students and even better black belts, so that people that follow us in the art will find the same love and fascination for Modern Arnis, that we found.

Sincerely

Datu Dieter Knüttel

[Bob Hubbard]

Anyway, I think we all know that there will never be the ONE unifying person art the top of Modern Arnis again. That was the Professor. These shoes are too big for all of us.
I think the best way we can honor the Professor is by training well and teaching well, producing good students and even better black belts, so that people that follow us in the art will find the same love and fascination for Modern Arnis, that we found.

Sincerely

Datu Dieter Knüttel


I think that sums it up very well. Thank you sir.
:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Dieter,
I've read some of your posts and like them. Two added points about no one being to fill the Prof's shoes. 1. Many of us have had previous training in other arts. When Prof. Presas began hsi seminar teaching inthe US and other countries, he advertised MA as "the art within your art." Our own training and application reflects out previous training so there ends up being various "schools" and associations of MA. This is neither good not bad and has historical precedent in both Pa Kua Chang and Tai Chi as well as the Preying Mantis system and so forth. 2. We all have our favorite aspects of MA. Bram Frank is clearly a knife blade man. Kelly has branched out into the use of Sibat (long pole) as well as the knife. I'm sure if you look at all of the Prof's leading students, you'll find there are certain preferences from person to person.

None of us match the Professor. Perhaps someday, with 45 years under our belts, we will.
Yours,
Dan Anderson :xwing:
PS - Wow! Who added all these Smilies? I lovem.
:lasma:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
he advertised MA as "the art within your art." Our own training and application reflects out previous training so there ends up being various "schools" and associations of MA. This is neither good not bad and has historical precedent in both Pa Kua Chang and Tai Chi as well as the Preying Mantis system and so forth.

Could you expand on this Mr. Anderson? How is this situation reminiscent of the history of Praying Mantis, Tai Chi, and Pa Kua?

[Dieter]

Hi Dan,

I think you misunderstood a little what I ment.
I never ment that anybody is a copy of the Professor. He clearly supported people finding their individual way of moving. I too had some 10 years of martial arts training in different styles before I started with Arnis.
But that is not the point. I think there are many technically good people. What I ment with "his shoes are too big for all of us" is, that he had a way of keeping different people together. People, that would have split with each other long ago stayed together because of him. He had a way of unifying the people, because they respected him and his abilities, but also the way he treated them. But he earned this respect over the decades. He made a name for himself and not by saying "I am the sucessor of ..." or "I am the highest ..." or "I am the best".
He just taught what he loved to do and this way he was respected by the people.
I just got an audio cassette from Kelly Worden with a few interviews of him with the Professor and besides the interesting content, it was amazing, how humble his words were and how soft spoken he was. I have been in his "fangs" during his lock flows and I have had the pleasure of practicing Tapi-Tapi with him, so I know that his techniques were not as soft as his voice. But it is one thing to hurting your students during the training. Almost everybody can do that. But it is another thing to give them at the same time the feeling, that each and every one is special to him and that he did not let his parters feel the pain to show them how good he was. At least I never had the impression.
He just showed them "how to do" and motivated them "you can do it".
Anyway, these were the things that I ment when I said, that his shoes are too big.
And for the Modern Arnis of the Professor had so many facettes, nobody had all of them. Therfore I acknowledge Datu Kelly Wordens efforts with the World Modern Arnis Coalition (WMAC), to bring people of different phases of Professors path together, so that one can learn from all of them. And I am sure he does not only talk about bringing them together.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see, where Modern Arnis will go in the future and I am proud in being a part of it.

Datu Dieter Knüttel

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Guys,
First an answer to Arnisador -
Tai Chi was founded in the Chen village. This type of Tai Chi is different than mostly what is taught in the US. The founder of the Yang style (Yang Lu Chan I believe) learned the Chen village art and moved to Beijing. There he taught the more affluent and lazy locals and came up with the softer and slower moving Yang set. A guy named Wu learned from the Yang family and taught his variation with much smaller stances. Sun Lu Tang was a noted Pa Kua and Hsing I master before learing Tai Chi. He synthesized rpinciples of each of the three internal arts to form the Sun style of Tai Chi.

Pa Kua founder Chang San Feng first taught his art to established martial artists, both strikers and grapplers alike. They, in turn, formed their own schools which use the same principles yet have different solo sets and applications.

Many of the senior students of Prof. Presas had backgrounds in other arts prior to learning Modern Arnis. We will end up with, I feel, different focuses, in our teachings while adhering to what Prof. Presas taught us.
:soapbox: So Sez the Historian
To Dieter -
Hey Deiter! Fast reply and hello. It's been a while since we met in Germany. I hope all is well with you. Thank you for clarification of what you meant in your post. Often there is not enough space or time to put in writing what could be verbally spoken. You mention an audio cassette that Kelly has and it's "interesting content." Than makes me curious. What is the interesting content? :apv:
Good hearing from you and the smilie means nothing. I just found it interesting.
Yours,
Dan

[arnisador]

Thanks for your reply Mr. Anderson. I see now what you mean. I do hope that some continue Modern Arnis in a mroe-or-less unadulterated fashion for the next generation! I fear however that while it will have a wide-ranging influence it will disappear as a distinct art with its own identity. I hope that I am merely being pessimistic here but that is my prediction. Without a strong and well-respected person at the top, that all Modern Arnis practitioners acknowledge as as senior to them in knowledge and ability and with a vision of where to take the art, I expect that it'll disappear as the art within others' arts. Not for a generation or two, of course, but that is my concern.

I don't believe that any of the MOTTs can fill this role; they aren't even particularly high-ranked compared to the datus and I believe a number of others (in the Philippines especially). Perhaps Dr. Presas can pull it off; I have never met him. It may be an impossible role to fill. Perhaps Wally Jay is correct to have four distinct successors in line. I don't know.

Luckily there are still many great practitioners from whom I can learn; Mr. Hartman recently gave me an interesting insight on an extremely basic technique, for example. I am going to keep learning for a long time, and those who study arts that have adopted some Modern Arnis will benefit too. But the art itself? We have too many groups, with too many people at the top. We have Mr. Delaney's group, Dr. Schea's group, Dr. Presas' group, Mr. Hartman's group (of which I am a member), Mr. Inocalla's group, Mr. Worden's group, Mr. de Leon's break-away group, Mr. Knuttel's German group as well I believe as other European groups that are not affiliated with any of the previously mentioned organizations (please correct me if I am mistaken Mr. Knuttel--I believe that your group is independent of the IMAFs and other world-wide groups), let alone how Mr. Jornales, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Anderson, and other senior individuals fit in. It's a mess! We have too many groups and too little leadership, I think.

[Dieter]

Hi Dan,

yes, it has been a while and for me here in Germany, everything goes fine.
Regarding the audio tape he talks about the development of Modern Arnis and for he mentions me and our group in Germany twice, it was interesting to hear what he said about us.

Regards


Dieter

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Arnisador,
At this time I do not have a group I am leading except for the students in my on school. Yes, many leaders. BUT there are also a lot of students as well. Will Modern Arnis become lost? Remy Presas WAS Modern Arnis and he is lost to us on a day by day basis. We have his books, tapes and personal memories. The art will not be lost, I don't think although it will alter as time goes on.
Yours,
Dan :cheers: