Let's try this technique now. Gift of Destruction - right handshake.


4. GIFT OF DESTRUCTION (front handshake)
1. With right hand shaking and while standing naturally, hop directly forward or slightly to your left to 11 o'clock, depending on circumstances, with your left foot as your right hand pulls your opponent's right hand toward and past your right hip.
2. With the above action, simultaneously strike in and against the joint of your opponent's right elbow with your left heel of palm as you deliver a right knee kick to opponent's groin.
3. As you plant your right foot forward (toward 10 o'clock) and against the inside portion of opponent's right knee, (in a right neutral bow) deliver a right inward horizontal elbow strike to left jaw of opponent while checking opponent's right arm down with your left hand (pressing check).
4. Front crossover cover out towards 6 o’clock.

This is what I have from the class curriculum. Please feel free to post anything you feel is important, personal preference, etc.

Sounds about the base tech there. Just one tip in teaching it is to teach the BODY as well. I have seen everyone do it with the attacker standing in a "neutral" or whatever. To body properly for this I found that keeping your feet shoulder with apart and squared to shoulders this technique works effectively and also the defender doesn't risk the attacker bringing up his/her knee.
We saw a lot of bruised knees and nearly severly damged.

Just a tip from my side of the world.
Enunciate, Expand, Enlighten
Dave

My thoughts on this technique? LOL It is the biggest over-reaction to a handshake I can imagine. "No really officer, he was squeezing my hand really hard! Look! Look at those red marks! I felt in fear of my life, well no, OK, I felt in fear of the loss of a couple of my fingers. So I felt justified to hyperextend his elbow, and crush his testicles."

So in what scenario do you feel justified to use this? The opponent can't be punching with the other hand, because then he would be retracting with his right, and you would wind up in a tug-of-war for his hand. In any case you can't defend your right upper quadrant because both of your hands are tied up on his arm.

In any case we avoid the groin completely and don't deal with the issue of banging knees. We use it as a thrusting knee to the floating rib or solar plexus depending on the angle (very Muay Thai really). It is still a complete over-reaction.

Lamont

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
3. As you plant your right foot forward (toward 10 o'clock) and against the inside portion of opponent's right knee, (in a right neutral bow) deliver a right inward horizontal elbow strike to left jaw of opponent while checking opponent's right arm down with your left hand (pressing check).

Depending on attacker's body position we also do this technique planting the right foot in the inside of his left knee. Whatever you fell more confortable with, but it's basically the same thing.

Originally posted by Blindside
It is the biggest over-reaction to a handshake I can imagine.

At my school we have a similar technique in the yellow chart which ends with the knee, and we all have the same feeling about it. One black belt mentioned at some point that a reasonable interpretation is that the attacker is going to pull back with his left in order to punch, and therefore pulling them off-balance with your right prevents the attacker from being able to connect with the punch. Still brings a grin pretty much every time it's brought up.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
3. As you plant your right foot forward (toward 10 o'clock) and against the inside portion of opponent's right knee, (in a right neutral bow)

I don't understand this part. If you move your left foot to 11 o'clock initially, subsequently moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock (using the original point of reference) will put you in some sort of twist stance, not a right neutral bow; if you use the new position of your left foot as a new reference point, moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock will put you on your opponent's right-rear side, facing away from him. If you want to have your right leg end up on the inside of your opponent's right leg while you're in a right neutral bow, shouldn't you be stepping toward 1 o'clock? Or am I missing something here?

Rich

Originally posted by Blindside
The opponent can't be punching with the other hand, because then he would be retracting with his right, and you would wind up in a tug-of-war for his hand. In any case you can't defend your right upper quadrant because both of your hands are tied up on his arm.

why can't they throw a punch...?

when we do the technique the "attack" is the old squeeze of the hand first, followed shortly by an attempted punch if the reaction isn't quick enough. sometimes we just do it for the handshake/punch deal without the squeeze. i call it the ultimate sucker punch, you'd have to be a real jerk to pull that type of move. when you take them off balance that's when they can't throw the punch, the center of gravity is thrown off as well as balance. even if he did throw the punch somehow, just because you can't block or parry it in time with the hand doesn't mean you can't simply slip it as you go off on an angle.

a drunk or mean guy out to do harm is just trying to hit you and probably has no idea that what he's doing isn't "right," he just want to make contact. it might just wind up being some pansy hit...

Originally posted by SingingTiger
I don't understand this part. If you move your left foot to 11 o'clock initially, subsequently moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock (using the original point of reference) will put you in some sort of twist stance, not a right neutral bow; if you use the new position of your left foot as a new reference point, moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock will put you on your opponent's right-rear side, facing away from him. If you want to have your right leg end up on the inside of your opponent's right leg while you're in a right neutral bow, shouldn't you be stepping toward 1 o'clock? Or am I missing something here?

Rich

You drive through the attacker. Step out left then drive through with the right foot. The right foot should probably be at the 11 position rather than 10 but that's our class technique. You should end up with a right neutral bow right leg check on their right leg; left pressing check on the right arm; your right inward elbow on the face/chin/whatever target you get.

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Depending on attacker's body position we also do this technique planting the right foot in the inside of his left knee.

Do you leave your centerline open when executing the tech. this way? When advancing to the inside; cross your stance slightly. This gives your leg check as well as puts your centerline away from any accidental attack. If you elbow in the face and your stance is open could you get an accidental foot in your groin. Just curious if the way your doing it is the way I perceive it in my head as I read it?

Originally posted by SingingTiger
I don't understand this part. If you move your left foot to 11 o'clock initially, subsequently moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock (using the original point of reference) will put you in some sort of twist stance, not a right neutral bow; if you use the new position of your left foot as a new reference point, moving your right foot toward 10 o'clock will put you on your opponent's right-rear side, facing away from him. If you want to have your right leg end up on the inside of your opponent's right leg while you're in a right neutral bow, shouldn't you be stepping toward 1 o'clock? Or am I missing something here?


if you hop to 11 with the left, and then step to 1 with the right...you've just opened up your centerline completely to any incidental contact. ideally you will hop to 11 on your left foot, after the knee is thrown you will step down with the right foot to 10 or maybe 11 or 12 depending on how things go for you in the technique, as long as you check that leg. 10 always seemed a little extreme to me, i just use what works for me, but if you do go to 10 you get a pretty mean buckling check there if you get it right.

trying it yourself to see what happens is the only way to get the feel of what's happening.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Do you leave your centerline open when executing the tech. this way? When advancing to the inside; cross your stance slightly. This gives your leg check as well as puts your centerline away from any accidental attack. If you elbow in the face and your stance is open could you get an accidental foot in your groin. Just curious if the way your doing it is the way I perceive it in my head as I read it?

Well, in a way yes. But that's were the depending on attacker's body position come... He's already "fallen" over you with the previous knee to groin, making it more difficult to go for the right knee that it is to go for the left. But planting your foot on his left knee, besides buckling it, further unbalances the attacker, who will then fall to your right and out of your center line.

Mmmm, don't know if I make it clearer or more confusing...

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Well, in a way yes. But that's were the depending on attacker's body position come... He's already "fallen" over you with the previous knee to groin, making it more difficult to go for the right knee that it is to go for the left. But planting your foot on his left knee, besides buckling it, further unbalances the attacker, who will then fall to your right and out of your center line.

Mmmm, don't know if I make it clearer or more confusing...

The only thing I see as stated above is if the left is stationary and their falling back the right leg will come up. If your centerline is open you may get kicked in the groin. Just a thought that's all. After the right knee strike it should plant down from there thus giving your right leg buckle.

why can't they throw a punch...? when we do the technique the "attack" is the old squeeze of the hand first, followed shortly by an attempted punch if the reaction isn't quick enough. sometimes we just do it for the handshake/punch deal without the squeeze.

This is my point, if you key off the squeeze, you are over-reacting. If you key off the punch you are too damn late. This sucker punch gets alot of its energy from the push pull. If I'm the attacker I pull your hand in with my right, and punch with my left. When I start retracting my right you cannot play catch up to that arm, you will lose.

If I reach out to shake the hand of a stranger (lets hope this guy is a stranger OK ;)) my body is seldom directly aligned with the other person. My right shoulder is generally forward and my arm extended for the handshake. This serves to put myself farther away from the other person, this is purely do to North American (north of Mexico anyway) social mores. Guys generally do not intrude in other guys space unless they know each other. That is why using the left hand to clasp the other person gives the appearance of such friendliness. You cannot be at a formal distance and accomplish that. This applies to the self-defense technique because both you and your opponent are probably right shoulder forward, right hand extended, to use the left hand you have to pivot the shoulder, or you will just be an arm puncher. Hence, the argument "the attacker isn't punching" because if he does I don't think the ideal phase works. If this assertion is true, the my original question stands, what reason has this person given you to knee him in the groin?

Ok, I'm repeating myself, and I'm babbling, and the above paragraph doesn't make much sense. I'm going to bed, to dream of how latino social mores and machismo affect self-defense techniques south of the border.

Lamont

You have strange dreams dude :)

Originally posted by Blindside
This is my point, if you key off the squeeze, you are over-reacting. If you key off the punch you are too damn late. This sucker punch gets alot of its energy from the push pull. If I'm the attacker I pull your hand in with my right, and punch with my left. When I start retracting my right you cannot play catch up to that arm, you will lose.

If I reach out to shake the hand of a stranger (lets hope this guy is a stranger OK ;)) my body is seldom directly aligned with the other person. My right shoulder is generally forward and my arm extended for the handshake. This serves to put myself farther away from the other person, this is purely do to North American (north of Mexico anyway) social mores. Guys generally do not intrude in other guys space unless they know each other. That is why using the left hand to clasp the other person gives the appearance of such friendliness. You cannot be at a formal distance and accomplish that. This applies to the self-defense technique because both you and your opponent are probably right shoulder forward, right hand extended, to use the left hand you have to pivot the shoulder, or you will just be an arm puncher. Hence, the argument "the attacker isn't punching" because if he does I don't think the ideal phase works. If this assertion is true, the my original question stands, what reason has this person given you to knee him in the groin?

Ok, I'm repeating myself, and I'm babbling, and the above paragraph doesn't make much sense. I'm going to bed, to dream of how latino social mores and machismo affect self-defense techniques south of the border.

Lamont

we can probably both agree on the fact that this is more of an offensive attack than it is self defense.

you do this to someone you probably don't like them too much. :D

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Do you leave your centerline open when executing the tech. this way? When advancing to the inside; cross your stance slightly. This gives your leg check as well as puts your centerline away from any accidental attack. If you elbow in the face and your stance is open could you get an accidental foot in your groin. Just curious if the way your doing it is the way I perceive it in my head as I read it?

It's just a continuation of the knee in the groin, and you don't open your centerline any more than that. And after the side kick you go back to left neutral bow instead of forward into a right neutral. Don't know if this mades it somewhat clearer... But the technique is still made the way you describe most of the times.

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
... And after the side kick you go back to left neutral bow instead of forward into a right neutral. Don't know if this mades it somewhat clearer... But the technique is still made the way you describe most of the times.

Are we doing the same technique? By reading your statement I'm picking up on the older version of thrusting prongs or something. I'm also trying to be sincere here as well not sarcastic. Variations vary from instructor to instructor/ club to club/ and personal preference. Good discussion though.;)

Well, I have the techniques by numbers and so it well may be thrusting prongs or something...
I talked about what I understood of what you wrote in the description, though:)

Good to learn new things from all of you :asian: :asian:

Stick around Thrusting Prongs will be up soon enough. :)

I went to Billing's site :) Yeah, the end I wrote for the variation is that of thrusting prongs.
And example of the flow between different techniques to adjust for the actual situation?

I'll be sticking around, sure

:cool:

Originally posted by Blindside
My thoughts on this technique? LOL It is the biggest over-reaction to a handshake I can imagine. "No really officer, he was squeezing my hand really hard! Look! Look at those red marks! I felt in fear of my life, well no, OK, I felt in fear of the loss of a couple of my fingers. So I felt justified to hyperextend his elbow, and crush his testicles."

So in what scenario do you feel justified to use this? The opponent can't be punching with the other hand, because then he would be retracting with his right, and you would wind up in a tug-of-war for his hand. In any case you can't defend your right upper quadrant because both of your hands are tied up on his arm.

In any case we avoid the groin completely and don't deal with the issue of banging knees. We use it as a thrusting knee to the floating rib or solar plexus depending on the angle (very Muay Thai really). It is still a complete over-reaction.

Lamont

I disagree sir. On the street many a confrontation begins with this type of assault. Ed Parker even had a "unique" way of shaking hands with people because of this. When a person appears to know you and/or seems friendly, most civilized people instinctively extend their hand when a person does the same toward you. It really depends where you are and what you're doing.

The opposite hand can be deployed without pulling on the seizing hand by simply moving forward. In fact, that is how it is usually done.

I have had to rationalize the types of attack that can occur with the "handshake". As I posted before:

The hand crusher
The guy pulling you in
The guy pulling you in with a off hand punch
The guy pulling you in to a knee
The guy pushing you back

Going to the side away from other attackers is also covered with the variaty of handshake techniques - controlling and using the opponent's body as a barracade.

Not to mention the JKD variation from Dan Inosanto (circa 1962) for Gift in Return when you utilize a throw as you pass the hand back through the legs.

Some people like 'em, some don't ... I used to not like them until I had known them about 15 years. Now, somehow, my mind caught up with my body. I have always been able to execute them, but now I see clear purpose in learning the handshake techniques in the ideal phase.

Come on guys, they can be fun when you throw a couple of attackers in there, while one guy is holding your hand.

Oss,
-Michael

Depending on the angle of delivery of the knee strike you may not get to finish the technique at all. I did this technique on someone on the street and when I hit him with the knee, I hit him directly (on the 12/6 line) driving his pelvis back and sending him about foot and a half backwards! Talking with my instructor one day, he told me that once he had delivered the knee and his attacker was too close, so the knee came straight up and lifted the attacker onto his toes! Just some food for thought ~ for every action there is a reaction, adjust fire! fire for effect!...:rofl: :asian:

Originally posted by Blindside
My thoughts on this technique? LOL It is the biggest over-reaction to a handshake I can imagine.

So in what scenario do you feel justified to use this?

over-reaction, eh...? hmm...

Scenario:

You're a college student of the female persausion, say 5'5", 5'6", 125-140 pounds. You're attending a frat party for some unknown reason (and why do YOU think a college female would do that...:rofl: ). You happen to meet a frat guy that's had one-too-many Corona Extras. He extends his hand in a friendly-get-to-know-you handshake and you return the gesture...but he doesn't let go and insists you go with him upstairs to a more private area. You, being the, dainty female that are, refuse the invitation, yet he still doesn't let go. You try asking nicely one more time, yet, still doesn't let go. BAM. Technique executed and drunk dumbass makes a resounding thud on floor.

Was that too much over reaction?

Originally posted by Chronuss
Technique executed and drunk dumbass makes a resounding thud on floor.

Was that too much over reaction?

Not in my book of rules!!!

Originally posted by Blindside

So in what scenario do you feel justified to use this?



A scenario in which to use this technique would be one of multiple attackers. Two people who seem to know you approach and one extends his hand which you politely accept. As you are shaking hands you note a change in facial expression as the grip tightens and the other person loads up a haymaker.

Of course, Gift of Destruction would only be a applicable technique for this scenario if the 2nd attacker was standing between 12 and 3 o'clock so that you can use the 1st attacker as a shield/weapon.

However, that said, I have removed the 4 Gift techniques from our syllabus to be taught togther as a non-syllabus requirement (illustrating the 4 basic directions of movement among other things). These have been replaced with different techniques that deal with more common ideal attacks.

For Gift of Destruction, I feel that the main physical element of this technique (hyperextending and then craning the arm at the elbow) is covered by other techniques around the same belt level (eg. Glancing Salute and Snapping Twig).

Just my opinion and I'm open to opinion/suggestion/correction.

For Gift of Destruction, I feel that the main physical element of this technique (hyperextending and then craning the arm at the elbow) is covered by other techniques around the same belt level (eg. Glancing Salute and Snapping Twig).


You must be careful of "removing" material based on your understanding of what you think it does and teaches. Especially if you are not aware of additionally levels of the technique that may take you other places and introduced higher concepts.

Hi Guys. I would like to give you a scenaio. Someone intends to do you harm. You percieve this. Lets just say there's two or three guys and you realize that they have cut you out of the herd and are pretty much about ready to do you great harm. Who knows why, money, thrills, revenge whatever. The lead jerk offers his hand, "hey, its cool bro, we aren't looking for trouble". If you refuse then the 'justification' is there for belligerence on thier part so normally the victim will comply against thier better judgment and shake hands at which time the sucker punch and beating will commence. Unless of course you decide at this time to fearfully reach out and grasp his hand and suddenly explode into the technique, which will remove one third of the problem (in the case of three attackers) I consider this pretty much an offensive technique. As a defensive technique where the attacker pulls in then the part about straightening the arm and hyperextending should be forgotten. When I perform this technique I use a loose 'slapping' grab just above the elbow which shocks th 11 (triple heater 11) having the intent of using the arm to pull and simueltaneous I 'hop' forward with the knee. The fact that he's pulling in just helps me (borrowed force) .Also if you turn to a left neutral as you do the inward elbow your knee that is married to the inside of his right leg will buckle the knee outward and the move becomes a strike down. (Like a take down ) Here's one that's "in house". Very easy and I really think you will like it, we call it gift of agony. As he squeezes your hand step to 11:00 with your right foot. FORGET ABOUT YOUR ARM If you try to power this technique it doesn't work near as well. Immediatly pivot counterclockwise 180 into a neutral bow facing 6:00. Let your hand and arm that he is holding go behind your back like you are in a hammer lock. This puts him into a very painful wristlock and the position of his body will definantly give you that warm fuzzy fealing . Really! Gary

Originally posted by GaryM
Hi Guys. I would like to give you a scenaio. Someone intends to do you harm. You percieve this. Lets just say there's two or three guys and you realize that they have cut you out of the herd and are pretty much about ready to do you great harm. Who knows why, money, thrills, revenge whatever. The lead jerk offers his hand, "hey, its cool bro, we aren't looking for trouble". If you refuse then the 'justification' is there for belligerence on thier part so normally the victim will comply against thier better judgment and shake hands at which time the sucker punch and beating will commence. Unless of course you decide at this time to fearfully reach out and grasp his hand and suddenly explode into the technique, which will remove one third of the problem (in the case of three attackers) I consider this pretty much an offensive technique. As a defensive technique where the attacker pulls in then the part about straightening the arm and hyperextending should be forgotten. When I perform this technique I use a loose 'slapping' grab just above the elbow which shocks th 11 (triple heater 11) having the intent of using the arm to pull and simueltaneous I 'hop' forward with the knee. The fact that he's pulling in just helps me (borrowed force) .Also if you turn to a left neutral as you do the inward elbow your knee that is married to the inside of his right leg will buckle the knee outward and the move becomes a strike down. (Like a take down ) Here's one that's "in house". Very easy and I really think you will like it, we call it gift of agony. As he squeezes your hand step to 11:00 with your right foot. FORGET ABOUT YOUR ARM If you try to power this technique it doesn't work near as well. Immediatly pivot counterclockwise 180 into a neutral bow facing 6:00. Let your hand and arm that he is holding go behind your back like you are in a hammer lock. This puts him into a very painful wristlock and the position of his body will definantly give you that warm fuzzy fealing . Really! Gary

No way.

Originally posted by Doc
No way. Doc, unless I have proven a technique I won't teach it. I call this technique a 'party favor' because it works so well , is extreamly painful, makes the jerk look like a fool, however stopping at the point of the 180 degree turn usually causes no damage. I know it sounds weird and like you would be vunerable, but you just have to try it to see the beauty of the technique. My daughter is 110 lbs and damn near broke her 180 lb boyfriend's arm in class. Coincidentally she told him what she was going to do and he actually said "no way". I s**t thee not! Well, goodnight all. Gary

Originally posted by GaryM
Doc, unless I have proven a technique I won't teach it. I call this technique a 'party favor' because it works so well , is extreamly painful, makes the jerk look like a fool, however stopping at the point of the 180 degree turn usually causes no damage. I know it sounds weird and like you would be vunerable, but you just have to try it to see the beauty of the technique. My daughter is 110 lbs and damn near broke her 180 lb boyfriend's arm in class. Coincidentally she told him what she was going to do and he actually said "no way". I s**t thee not! Well, goodnight all. Gary

Not based on your description.

[i] Here's one that's "in house". Very easy and I really think you will like it, we call it gift of agony. As he squeezes your hand step to 11:00 with your right foot. FORGET ABOUT YOUR ARM If you try to power this technique it doesn't work near as well. Immediatly pivot counterclockwise 180 into a neutral bow facing 6:00. Let your hand and arm that he is holding go behind your back like you are in a hammer lock. This puts him into a very painful wristlock and the position of his body will definantly give you that warm fuzzy fealing . Really! Gary [/B]
This an old Daito Ryu Jujutsu Technique.Though it does lock your wrist momentarely, you need to follow through with another spin and regrab his wrist with your left to either do a wrist throw or a wrist lock, otherwise the opponent can undo the lock if left in the first position. I have been in receiving end of this tek put on me by my Aikido teacher and it does hurt a bit specially if your not flexible in the wrist.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
This an old Daito Ryu Jujutsu Technique.Though it does lock your wrist momentarely, you need to follow through with another spin and regrab his wrist with your left to either do a wrist throw or a wrist lock, otherwise the opponent can undo the lock if left in the first position. I have been in receiving end of this tek put on me by my Aikido teacher and it does hurt a bit specially if your not flexible in the wrist.

Thanks P.T. the descriptions he was using were confusing. I know what he means now, however I would never teach this technique. The counter is too easy and instinctual. Further it makes no sense to turn your back on an opponent when he only controls one hand.

Additionally it is a pain compliant technique which is not a good thing. And to stretch it a bit, what prevents the use of his other hand, which may or may not be empty. Nope. This ones just as likely to get you in trouble as the attacker.

I had a gentleman in a demo I did for a group of DanZan Ryu Jiu-jitsu practitioners share this one with me. He was a 9th degree, Harold Something. Anyway, as soon as he stepped I pushed forward on his hand to control his depth and raised his hand to my shoulder height. when he attempted to spin I heel palmed him in the back on his left shoulder blade, raised his arm further and stepped underneath with my right foot bringing his hand and arm over my head. Then I pivoted back toward where I started counterclockwise raising his hand into a wristlock forcing him up on his toes with his elbow pointing straight up. Not what I would do but I was proving a point to him. That was the day I broke down everything they showed me and countered it. There were two 10ths in attendance who were really impressed. A married couple name Dominic and Helen Corolo, as well as several 9ths and 8ths. It was a special clinic for ATAMA and they awarded me my 9th that night. Bernie Weiss from AFISK (American Federation of Independent Shotokan/Okinawa Karate-do) , Ed Hamile from West Coast Shotokan, Takayuki Kubota, Ed Parker Jr. and a bunch of other folks were there.

Originally posted by Doc
Thanks P.T. the descriptions he was using were confusing. I know what he means now, however I would never teach this technique. The counter is too easy and instinctual. Further it makes no sense to turn your back on an opponent when he only controls one hand.

Additionally it is a pain compliant technique which is not a good thing. And to stretch it a bit, what prevents the use of his other hand, which may or may not be empty. Nope. This ones just as likely to get you in trouble as the attacker.

I had a gentleman in a demo I did for a group of DanZan Ryu Jiu-jitsu practitioners share this one with me. He was a 9th degree, Harold Something. Anyway, as soon as he stepped I pushed forward on his hand to control his depth and raised his hand to my shoulder height. when he attempted to spin I heel palmed him in the back on his left shoulder blade, raised his arm further and stepped underneath with my right foot bringing his hand and arm over my head. Then I pivoted back toward where I started counterclockwise raising his hand into a wristlock forcing him up on his toes with his elbow pointing straight up.
Yes, I agree. But there is difference fighting with a bully and an exprienced martial artist such as yourself. The tek would work if you catch the opponent by surprise or if he is attempting to twist your hand and you go with the flow. like you said there are better ways to deal with this.