I'm on an instructor's board elsewhere and there was a discussion about the role of women in teaching a self-defense course. There were comments saying that only women should teach because only they know what a woman's response should be, only they know the thought processes, only they can deal effectively with student "break-downs" when in the class.

What do you think? Should women teach the class and men only assist? Can women assist and still be just as effective? Should classes be mixed with women and men or should they be separated because their needs are different (because their altercations are different)?

Their are women-only SD courses out there (Mona-Lisa's Sword is one I think). Have you tried them and how do they compare with mixed courses or male-taught courses?

WhiteBirch

Speaking for myslef only, I think it is foolish to say only women should teach the courses. What if there is no woman in the area qualified to instruct? Do you just say OH, so sorry no one here that kows anything travel a hundred miles and find a woman instructror.
I see no reason a man cant teach a woman. I know there are some large women out there but there are large men also and we react and move differently. If you are teaching a defense against a man you may want a man doing it so that he reacts and moves normaly.
Can a woman teach it by herslef? Sure why not but why say woman only?

it depends on the situation. if you're teaching a class in a battered women's shelter, think very hard and consult with shelter management before bringing any men into the picture. If its just a regular self defense class, I see no problem with a male instructor, as long as he remembers that women are not as big or strong as men, so therefore moves that work well for a man may not be as effective for a woman.

There should be absolutely no reason why a woman can't teach a self defense class. Teaching martial arts classes has no gender (at least as far as I know). Men and women equally move up in rank therefore should be able to teach up to the belt under them. Theoretically speaking.

ok guys u gotta hear Mrs. Diana gordon on www.nononsenseselfdefense.com join the Animal list n hear her say...n frankly it's worth it...
i think it shouldn't be big deal if the female(instructor) can take on classes..-
-TkdWarrior-

At first, I was going to keep my trap shut on this subject, but I decided against it. At the college that I teach at, there is a woman black belt that teached the women's SD class. The college did offer to take the class and put it under me. I decided to decline. The woman that teaches the class is very militant in her views that a man should have absolutely nothing to do with teaching women self defense. I talked to her extensively and found her ideas to have some merit, but not thought through well enough. The defenses she teaches are far too elaborate and too easy to counter. While,I feel that a woman has very good insights on how a woman will behave under stress, the fact remains, she will not attack like a man. Especially a man with rape or some other heinous crime in mind. I firmly believe that if you are going to teach self defense wether it be for man or woman,you should have a mixed instructor group. I have found it invaluable to have one of my senior students, who is a woman, give me her views on what she is feeling/experiencing and what she has felt and experienced in the past. As she is also my wife, she is comfortable talking to me about these things.
This has made me open to other options in my teaching as well as given me a greater understanding.

I can never understand why there always has to be some kind of segregation and that women always think differently to men react differently to men are weaker than men etc.....
People react to situations in different ways regardless of their gender, sure a woman can teach self defence but no one ever says only a man should teach mens self defence because they know how men will react......why ***** foot around women all the time......it doesn't matter what gender the teacher is as long as they are a good teacher, can communicate well and enable people to understand and build their confidence. I would think that in a womans refuge there would be nothing more empowering than a woman manageing to drop a male instructor on the floor. Nothing wrong with having a couple of teachers of both genders teaching, but i don't think it should be the exclusive domain of a woman.......:soapbox:

in a womans shelter, yes, dropping a male instructor might be empowering, but most of the times there are too many issues to even get to that point. most of these women have been brutally attacked by men, and can panic when confronted by a man in a similar attack situation, even if that man is trying to teach self defense. in the beginning at least, put them in a situation where they can learn a few self defese techniques from a female instructor, because you remove the panic factor that can prevent learning. it may be okay to bring in a male instructor later on, but let them get used to the idea first

in a regular self defense class, there should be no problem with having a male instructor, but in the case of battered women, you really have to take their emotional situation into account.

perhaps, but what about the men who have been brutally attacked by women......the men who have been attacked by other men and the women who have been attacked by women? there are lots of emotional issues for all these groups and I would think that a good teacher, regardless of gender would be preferable to one who is the same sex purely on that grounds....my main martial arts teacher is a woman, who surprisingly I actually find good to work with but I much prefer gettting down to fighting with men.....

you are thinking logically. a woman in a shelter usually would not be. I've taught self defense at shelters. A lot of these women are reacting purely on instinct... and their instinct is telling them to stay away from agressive men, so most of them just plain wouldn't take the class if it was taught by a man...and I've heard this from the directors of several different shelters.

well i can't comment on a woman in a shelter, but i have had my share of 'problems', it has little to do with logic, but when it comes down to it, and knowing that if I need to I can damage a man does far more for me than any training I have done with a woman.......I feel less empowered working with a woman, and funny despite my experiences all of my best mates are blokes.....who have done more to help me through situations than any of my female freinds ever have, infact the blokes seemed to have a better understanding........maybe I am just unique in my experience, but i don't like the reinforcement of the women are weak stereotype........if you treat someone like a victim they will stay that way for ever. But people are individuals people handle things in their own way.

Taiji,
You have made some excellent points, as has Kris. I have helped with Women's self defense classes in the abuse shelters. My role, the punching bag, nothing more. I have taken young men that are used to being beaten up every day and taken them to the point where a side kick to the solar plexus doesn't faze them anymore or a strike to the face is a mere annoyance. I didn' take them there simply by beating on them, but by me and my senior belts setting an example. For example, on of my senior belts slipped one in on me and split my lip. I picked him up in a huge affectionate bear hug, I was that proud of him. By doing something like that when one of my students gets me good, I am setting the example that (to borrow a cliche) most pain don't hurt. Yes, I understand that pain is the bodies way of telling us that something is wrong. I also understand that in a large number of cases, it is the fear of pain rather than pain itself that causes issues. So not only am I trying to teach my males and females not to get hurt, I am teaching them to not fear it either, within reason. A stab wound is a stab wound and a gunshotis a gunshot, so some common sense also needs to be mixed in.

Seig,

Good Comments, for if you have never been hit you will not understand what happened to your body in that situation.


As for the female self defense instructor issue, I understand why it would be easier to learn from a female and female perspective. There is more likely to be sympathy and empathy in both directions. This does not mean that a male could not do this, only less likely. Since the instruction not only depends upon one person speaking and demonstrating yet it also depends upon the other person listening. And communication could be hard for some.

Now I think after some work they students need to be introduced to male opponents and male instructors. They should learn that not all men are bad, as well as how to deal with their fear of being confronted by a man.

Just my opinion.

Rich
:asian:

agreed

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
I'm on an instructor's board elsewhere and there was a discussion about the role of women in teaching a self-defense course. There were comments saying that only women should teach because only they know what a woman's response should be, only they know the thought processes, only they can deal effectively with student "break-downs" when in the class.

What do you think? Should women teach the class and men only assist? Can women assist and still be just as effective? Should classes be mixed with women and men or should they be separated because their needs are different (because their altercations are different)?

Their are women-only SD courses out there (Mona-Lisa's Sword is one I think). Have you tried them and how do they compare with mixed courses or male-taught courses?

WhiteBirch

From my experiences as a martial arts/ self defense instructor, I believe that instructional programs that are mixed is preferable to same sex only classes and teaching staffs. This **is not** to say that women's only classes are without merit. These types of classes with female chief instructors have their place and are very valuble in some cases. I believe that flexibility is the key to good instructional programs.

I teach women how to teach self defense. My goal is to find movtivated females and then teach them first the art, then add instructional training, to give them practical, supervised teaching opportunities. The student-teachers begin with a single student and a very specific learning objective. As the student-teacher gets better at managing the single student situation, I then add a second and later a third student to their resonsibilities. My goal is to critique the program of the person(s) being taught as a way of judging how successful my student-teacher is.

I also believe that by showing my female student teacher how to teach both males and females, I am aiding both in-training teacher as well as the student(s) in understanding that it is the knowledge and skills that are ultimately important, not the gender of the instructor.

I am also placing a great deal of importance on body mechanics, evasion, re-direction of force and superior positioning rather then meeting force with force. These attributes are equally imprtant for males and females in a street self defense situation. On the street there will not be segregated weight classes and single gender fighting groups. Unfair and unequal are the real rules in a street encounter.

I stress that empty hand techniques are the harbinger of all hand tools utilzation such as palm sticks, kubutons, knives, sticks and staffs (mops, brooms, umbrellas, etc.).

Since I have been cross trained in kenpo and escrima/arnis from white through 6th degree black belt, I believe that systems and styles are not as important as knowledge and skill. For instance,
my Hand Tools Seminars incorperate the use of empty hand techniques with are then transfered (translated) to the 3-6 inch palm stick from the Filipino Martial Arts, then the Kubuton Keychain from Japanese Karate, to the Gunting Folding Knife - which has its' foundation in FMA and Small Circle Jiu-jitsu. My senior certified female instructor, often co-teaches this seminar program. Our clients have included police officers, martial artists and security personnal.

As far as I am concerned, females can and should be teaching self defense to other females as well as males.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

well obviously the students are the most important, as I understand it in genneral there are fewer female teachers qualified to teach SD than male. As a result it doesn't make sence to me to have only female instructors teach women, but if the only SD class a particular woman will feal comfortable in is an all women SD class than that's realy what she needs to be in for the moment.

realy in my opinion female SD should have both male and female perspectives in teaching. Taiji fan you may disagree but from my (very limited) experience women in genneral have a diffrent psychological out look when first comming to a martial art or SD class than men, maybe not all women but alot, and this does need to be accomodated if for no other purpose than to get women in the door.

Taiji fan you may disagree but from my (very limited) experience women in genneral have a diffrent psychological out look when first comming to a martial art or SD class than men, maybe not all women but alot, and this does need to be accomodated if for no other purpose than to get women in the door. if you say so...I don't agree, from my experience women do not take up martial arts because just they have been battered, or because they feel like a victim they take it up for fitness, fun, a social life, to learn skills, because they are fans of Jackie Chan etc and yes some of them even want self defence and fighting and tournaments......the exact same reasons as men in fact......as a woman my biggest gripe is being pidgeon holed and catagorised as, psychologically different, weaker, inferior etc. All common misconceptions of women that seem to be continually reinforced. Incidently I had a male freind who got beaten up by a gang of men......they were all of Indian origin.....he has a panic attack when confronted with people of this culture.......is he different because he is man or because he has had a bad experience.......I don't like people being catagoried by gender, but by the person they are, how good a teacher they are, how they can work with a student, how they can develop the trust and regain a students self worth....if thats what is needed.

just stating my experience. But I didn't mean to reference the reason someone takes up martial arts or goes to a self deffence class, rather how they act when they walk in the door.

just stating my experience. But I didn't mean to reference the reason someone takes up martial arts or goes to a self deffence class, rather how they act when they walk in the door. I know...and your opinion and experience is just as valid as everyone elses :)

well sorta.. my experience is much more limited than most, that has to be taken into acocunt.

Sweeper, may I ask you what you mean by the statement that women have a different attitude to men when they walk through the dojo door for the first time? I'm asking only because I've had it said about me. (That I don't go to martial arts for the typical female reasons.) When I've asked for clarification, I've been told the same thing, "in my experience, women just have a different attitude, that's all". Even though I'm female myself, I can so I have no experience in this matter at all. At my last dojo I was the only female there, and I'm the only female at my current dojo. Thank you.

A lot of women go into martial arts because:

1. they've been assaulted and don't want it to happen again
2. they want to learn self defense
3. their children are involved in the art, and they want to learn more
4. their husbands/boyfriends got them involved.
5. they learned tae-bo/kickboxing and want to learn more
6. they want to lose weight/get in shape and are bored with the gym

men typically go into martial arts because:

1. they want to kick ass.
2. they want to be able to protect their families


(not dissing either side...just saying that this is what I've seen in my experience, and it's a generalization)

personally, I started martial arts because I wanted to compete and kick ass. not a typically female reason. However, I got really serious about my training for a different reason entirely.

well I was only refferencing women who are comming to a martial arts class for the first time, and I have no idea what reasons people come to class for (I never ask anyone and no one ever real tells me, when you are there you are just there ;)). But I would say about 50-75% of the guys seem to treat it as a competition, they work with their partners fine but they always seem to be trying to show up their partner, men are also in my experience much more likely to want to spar, especialy spar at full speed. On the other hand most all of the women who are comming in for the first time seem to be very worried about hurting their partners and tend to practice REALY soft, almost no contact, and most of them either don't spar or do it realy light, also most women tend to chose training partners and sparring partners in other women not with the male students, so among first timers it kinda ends up gender segregated.

Again just my experience.

I got a problem with teaching women SD outside of those brave souls that join the class. There is so much more than punching and kicking to defending yourself. I believe that spending x number of class (8 classes @ our local shelter) to be dangerous to the women that are taught. Yes, convidence is increase, but skills are not improved to the point of truly being competent to protect ones self. If you want SD, join a school and train. From what I've seen taught locally, their just train fresh meat for a street scum. Sometimes a quick overview is not better or preferable to true training. The women in my dojang, I'm not messing with, I play target for them in class and their meaner than a rattlesnakes on drugs.

Mountain Sage

OK, thank you Sweeper. I didn't view my first MA classes as competition or try to show up my partners, but I wasn't gooey or girly either, just trying to do the techniques as best I could, not too soft. "Too hard and fast" wasn't really really an option 'cause I was pretty weak and slow when I started! I've never really had the option of trying to pair up with other females, like I said before, I've usually been the only girl at my dojo.

Originally posted by MountainSage
I got a problem with teaching women SD outside of those brave souls that join the class. There is so much more than punching and kicking to defending yourself. I believe that spending x number of class (8 classes @ our local shelter) to be dangerous to the women that are taught. Yes, convidence is increase, but skills are not improved to the point of truly being competent to protect ones self. If you want SD, join a school and train. From what I've seen taught locally, their just train fresh meat for a street scum. Sometimes a quick overview is not better or preferable to true training. The women in my dojang, I'm not messing with, I play target for them in class and their meaner than a rattlesnakes on drugs.

Mountain Sage

What these kinds of self defense classes need to concentrate on is not technique, punching and kicking. They need to concentrate on how not to get in a situation in the first place, things like how to be aware of your environment, don't leave the mall without your keys in your hand, look behind you, never carry more than two shopping bags out of the mall at once because it makes you a target, things like that.

Those are things that can be learned in a single self defense class. When I teach a self defense seminar, I spend over half of it talking and going over stuff like that. Then, I'll teach them one or two simple techniques for what to do if someone grabs them, easy things to remember. Then, I try to drill it into their heads that they can't count on self defense to work, that its a last-ditch, last-resort only. I point out how long I've been in the art, and stress that I still don't go walking around in dark alleys or parking lots. I don't go ANYWHERE alone at night. Ever. Even at the studio, I always wait until someone else is walking out into the parking lot that I can walk with. Martial arts has made me much more cautious, and I try to point this out when I teach a self defense seminar.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
What these kinds of self defense classes need to concentrate on is not technique, punching and kicking. They need to concentrate on how not to get in a situation in the first place, things like how to be aware of your environment, don't leave the mall without your keys in your hand, look behind you, never carry more than two shopping bags out of the mall at once because it makes you a target, things like that.

Those are things that can be learned in a single self defense class. When I teach a self defense seminar, I spend over half of it talking and going over stuff like that. Then, I'll teach them one or two simple techniques for what to do if someone grabs them, easy things to remember. Then, I try to drill it into their heads that they can't count on self defense to work, that its a last-ditch, last-resort only. I point out how long I've been in the art, and stress that I still don't go walking around in dark alleys or parking lots. I don't go ANYWHERE alone at night. Ever. Even at the studio, I always wait until someone else is walking out into the parking lot that I can walk with. Martial arts has made me much more cautious, and I try to point this out when I teach a self defense seminar.

This is one of the best writings on security issue. The first line of defence in security is RISK AVOIDANCE. Use of Force is the last resort. This cardinal principle is upheld throughout the elite security services. Even when they have the heaviest firepower, RISK Avoidance isthe first rule they go by!!

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
OK, thank you Sweeper. I didn't view my first MA classes as competition or try to show up my partners, but I wasn't gooey or girly either, just trying to do the techniques as best I could, not too soft. "Too hard and fast" wasn't really really an option 'cause I was pretty weak and slow when I started! I've never really had the option of trying to pair up with other females, like I said before, I've usually been the only girl at my dojo.

the gooey girly types don't seem to last very long.

I guess nightingale8472 put it better than I did. Basicly there are alot of guys I practice with that would treat a self deffence situation as a chance to prove themselves, where as I haven't met any women who would see it that way.

I think that last statement says a lot about our society and the way we look at gender. (warning: generalizations ahead! not true in every case, but true maybe more often than not)

Men do, more often than women, set out to use street situations to prove themselves.

Females are taught "be cautious, because the world can and will hurt you". Males are taught "be a man, don't let people push you around" and to take charge of a situation and be in control.

Unfortunately, the attitude that society has towards men can give them a false sense of security that they can handle a situation that in reality they probably can't. If a woman is in a situation where she needs to defend herself and can't, society is very sympathetic with statements like "it wasn't your fault, there was nothing more you could do, etc..." if a guy gets his ass kicked or worse, society looks at him and says "he's a man! why didn't he defend himself?!" and they blame the victim.

I've tried many times to drill it into my brother's head that he is not invincible. I've seen him confront someone who was being not extremely polite to me, or his girlfriend, or other female friends, and every time, he's gotten them to back off. The situations were never anything more than a guy who'd had a few too many making a couple of off color remarks, things that should really be ignored rather than confronted. I keep telling him that one of these days, the idiots aren't going to back off, and he's going to find himself in a fistfight that he isn't prepared to handle. Does he listen? no. of course not. because he's a man and he's invincible (or so he thinks, and I really hope nobody ever proves him wrong).

I think martial arts is not only good for giving women the skills and confidence that they need in a street situation, it can also be good for putting reason in a man's head. I've seen a lot of guys come into the studio with the attitude of "I'm gonna kick some ass." and they find out after the first few weeks that no matter how good they are, there's always somebody out there that's better, and that's a humbling experience. They begin to understand just how dangerous it is to start a fight, because they start to realize that you have the disadvantage of not knowing exactly what your opponent knows or what kind of training he or she may have, and they start to think that its probably not worth the risk.

opinions?

I think that realy depends on the person, but I deffenatly think more men than women are like that, I know I'm not and most of my freinds aren't wich would make me think it's laregly a social thing (and relative to your emediate pier group rather than sociaty at large), Also I think it's not so much a false sence of security that men feal but rather a fear of being pushed around.

Originally posted by DoctorB

I am also placing a great deal of importance on body mechanics, evasion, re-direction of force and superior positioning rather then meeting force with force. These attributes are equally imprtant for males and females in a street self defense situation. On the street there will not be segregated weight classes and single gender fighting groups. Unfair and unequal are the real rules in a street encounter.

I stress that empty hand techniques are the harbinger of all hand tools utilzation such as palm sticks, kubutons, knives, sticks and staffs (mops, brooms, umbrellas, etc.).

Since I have been cross trained in kenpo and escrima/arnis from white through 6th degree black belt, I believe that systems and styles are not as important as knowledge and skill. For instance,
my Hand Tools Seminars incorperate the use of empty hand techniques with are then transfered (translated) to the 3-6 inch palm stick from the Filipino Martial Arts, then the Kubuton Keychain from Japanese Karate, to the Gunting Folding Knife - which has its' foundation in FMA and Small Circle Jiu-jitsu. My senior certified female instructor, often co-teaches this seminar program. Our clients have included police officers, martial artists and security personnal.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

I would like to say hello to all of the people who have posted on this thread and to pay my respects in particular to Dr. Barber, whom I have met and trained with several times in the past 4 years.

My take on this thread is that it really does not matter why a peson, male of female joins a martial arts program, the real issue for me is how do the behave toward others in the program! As for female instructors in a self defense context, I would have to say that two of the very best instructors that I have met were trained by Dr. Barber. They both were assisting him at the two "Empty Hands-Hand Tools for Self Defense seminars that I attended in 2002. The two women, Debra and Tara, not only demonstarted the techniques with Dr. Barber, but they also circulated through the room and very clear explained each technique, why it would work in some situations and where it could/should be altered to fit into a slightly different situation.
These ladies knew their stuff and they were not the least bit shy or timid about working with either men or women.

I would recommend these seminars to everyone regardless of style. I would also suggest that you specificly ask Dr. Barber, if he would bring at least one of these women with him to the seminar if you are going to host the event. My instructor specificly asked that Debra be part of the instructional team at our school. He had first worked with her and Doctor Barber, at a knife defense seminar earlier. She was the only femal at the seminar and she more than held her own as a student and she sometimes served as an uke for the instructor, Tom Barnhart. She did not back away from contact or being thrown.

As for what Dr. Barber, wrote about stressing evasion and good body mechanics, he does! It is not "busy motion" or moving for the sake of moving. The movement is tied to a specific defensive purpose that leads directly to a counter-attack from a position of advantage. His movement principles are not unique to his style or system, they exist in virtually every system of martial arts. It is simply that he uses them in actual self defense applications. I was totally impressed with his instruction at both of these seminars. He delievered as advertized and both of his female assistants were very good.

A good instrutor is just that a good instructor. Gender is not a major consideration in my opinion.

Lamont Norhadow

Part of this thread has been split off to here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7709).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

My instructor is a man, but I see no problem with a woman as an instructor for a self defense class. I do see the benefits to having both male and female instructors. The reality is that we live in a world with both men and women and need to be able to protect ourselves from what ever may come our way. Whether it be female or male.

I can understand requesting a specific gender instructor for a specialized seminar, or as stated in one of the earlier posts for a womans shelter or some thing of that type, but the fact of the matter is that no matter what, once out on the street we may need to face our biggest fears.