Geometric Concepts

[Fang]

While surfing the web i noticed that some kenpo and silat videos had floor designs on the ground and i've been told these are for a sort of a game... How do they work and how does the game play out?

[ChingChuan]

Well, I'm not sure that this is was you mean, but in Silat there are specific ways to move. You know, you can move in a triangle or in a square, whatever.

I found a picture and I think I explains it quite well, even though it's in Dutch. >Click HERE< (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwAAAHIUqrrQMMDjHYlKfDAjskszps4fPTh07IpR5fEt!a5kO 5FOD!DdCEQJsn2NLoztwxKhSjJMXkpwErigI*g2h8QOE1qvB2e J6SnA7NM/Langkah.jpg?dc=4675460918632599597)

And on this site there are a few examples of the pattersn - >go Here< (http://www.pencaksilat.com/langkas.html).

So, if there are patterns on the floor, they'll probably help students to move in the correct way... It sounds a bit strange to me, though, because each person is different (longer/shorter, flexible/less flexible) so the the measurements are different as well.

But it isn't really a game, unless you consider trying to learn footwork as a game ;).

[Hand Sword]

From my Kem/npo experience the geometric forms are representation of the arts form of movement. You see it in the patches worn etc.. This was to show that the Art moves circular, linear, angular etc.. away from focussing on one way, as other systems do.

[tellner]

And on this site there are a few examples of the pattersn - >go Here< (http://www.pencaksilat.com/langkas.html).

So, if there are patterns on the floor, they'll probably help students to move in the correct way... It sounds a bit strange to me, though, because each person is different (longer/shorter, flexible/less flexible) so the the measurements are different as well.

Cool. I'm glad that old thing is still useful even if it's overdue for updating.

These shapes are defined by your stride and anatomy. My tiga isn't the same as yours unless we have the same length of leg and the same lower body flexibility and strength. They are entirely individual. In fact, one of the most important things they do is ingrain the area which you can reach without shifting your weight or telegraphing, what you can control wherever you happen to be standing.

There are many ways in which the platforms are used. In Sera the juru juru are mostly upper body patterns. We do the juru juru while moving on the platform. The basic pattern is step - turn - beset - turn - sapu - turn - beset... up and then reversed on the way back. As you can see, you're working the inside of the platform. More evasive systems, or Sera once you're ready to study fighting multiple opponents, go around the outside: step - turn - depok - turn - sempok ...

Another important beginning exercise is standing on one point or edge of a platform and sweeping or stepping when someone puts a foot anywhere on or in it. They can also be used to teach evasion, entering, finding a person's weak angles and many, many other things.

Some practitioners have an elaborate system which would do Thibault proud. They say things like "If you're on this line and he steps from this point to that point along the other line you respond by stepping to here or here with your lead foot..." My favorite term for this needlessly intricate approach is "organized despair" :shrug:

[Ping898]

From my Kem/npo experience the geometric forms are representation of the arts form of movement. You see it in the patches worn etc.. This was to show that the Art moves circular, linear, angular etc.. away from focussing on one way

This is also what I learned. At one school I trained with, they had a modified version of it on the floor and it was used to show, beginners especially, how a particular form of technique moved along the line.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

In Kosho Ryu Kempo the octagon is studied and used in the application of footwork, blocking, striking, throwing, locking, kicking, weaponry, and massage. It is the core of the "system".

http://www.skski.net/images/mon/hachihenkai.gif

_Don Flatt

[CuongNhuka]

Kosho Gakkusei, we have a similar concept in Cuong Nhu. However, instead of an octogon we have a circle.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

ChongNhuka,
In reality there are no straight lines just circular paths that appear straight due to an elongated radius. The Octagon in Kosho Ryu is really just a way to break down and understand what is probably the same circle you have in ChongNhu.

That's why the linear vs. circular arguments I often hear among MAists just makes me chuckle.

_Don Flatt

[Monadnock]

YEs, but circles roll better than octagons...nyuk nyuk nyuk

[CuongNhuka]

ChongNhuka,
In reality there are no straight lines just circular paths that appear straight due to an elongated radius. The Octagon in Kosho Ryu is really just a way to break down and understand what is probably the same circle you have in ChongNhu.

That's why the linear vs. circular arguments I often hear among MAists just makes me chuckle.

_Don Flatt

True, but I was refering to the direct. And it's CUong Nhu, two words. Just so you know.

YEs, but circles roll better than octagons...nyuk nyuk nyuk

True. and probably why Aikido likes circles.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

CuongNhuka,
Please forgive my slip of the keys. I must have subconciously asociated the appearance of your name with Channuka the Jewish holiday.

_Don Flatt

[CuongNhuka]

CuongNhuka,
Please forgive my slip of the keys. I must have subconciously asociated the appearance of your name with Channuka the Jewish holiday.

_Don Flatt

It's cool, as long as you fixed it. Isn't that refered to as a Freudian slip though?

[Kosho Gakkusei]

It's cool, as long as you fixed it. Isn't that refered to as a Freudian slip though?
Ya. Though sometimes I call it a frigging slip. Funny you can have those when typing??@! :erg:

_Don Flatt

[qi-tah]

In Kosho Ryu Kempo the octagon is studied and used in the application of footwork, blocking, striking, throwing, locking, kicking, weaponry, and massage. It is the core of the "system".

http://www.skski.net/images/mon/hachihenkai.gif

_Don Flatt


Interesting how many different arts utilise similar ways to formalise their mechanics... ba gua zhang (eight trigrams boxing) also uses octagons and circles to demonstrate footwork and directions of attack/defence. We also have footwork drills that look like the shape of an "infinity" symbol... or just two circles jammed together anyway! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

But what i'm hanging out to learn is the "Nine palaces" fighting drills... i've heard they are quite geometric too.

[CuongNhuka]

Interesting how many different arts utilise similar ways to formalise their mechanics... ba gua zhang (eight trigrams boxing) also uses octagons and circles to demonstrate footwork and directions of attack/defence. We also have footwork drills that look like the shape of an "infinity" symbol... or just two circles jammed together anyway! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

But what i'm hanging out to learn is the "Nine palaces" fighting drills... i've heard they are quite geometric too.

Aside from the circle/octagon all styles include the same pattern. Few teach it directly. Boxing footwork is based on the same pattern, for example. There are styles based around circles other then Ba Gua, Aikido is a anouther good example. As for the octagon, I suppose thats why we have the UFC, lol.

[jks9199]

There's a simple reason that you see the same ideas showing up...

There just ain't but so many ways to move. You can move forward, or backward, left or right, or diagonally "between" any of those four. And you can move up or down in place. Finally, you can move around the "circle" made by those directions.

BUT -- what's fascinating is how many different ways that different styles have found to use those directions of movement, and the different things they do with those movements!