Movements in past style interferes with new art

[Emptyhand]

I am curious if anyone else on this forum has had similiar issues with learning a new art and finding instinctively that movements from a past system interferes?

I am trying to free/empty my mind of my past system (for the sake of learning a new art) but not forget the past system (if that makes sense).

[bluemtn]

I have from time to time. It just takes a lot of practice. Out of curiosity, what two arts are you talking about? Are they completely different, or are they similar arts- like ITF TKD vs. WTF (as examples)?

[Hand Sword]

I have also. I agree that it just takes time and practice, like anything else. Keep at it, you'll get it. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[americanarnisador]

Remember you are a sum of your past experiences. Don't fight your self.
I'm sure your new instructor understands.
George

[Emptyhand]

Past Krav Maga, present American Kenpo Karate

[Shotgun Buddha]

Whichever you train harder will simply take over. If you're trying to cross train, its best to to mix arts which don't have much in common.
If you're moving onto a new style that was similar to an old one, decide which you prefer and then jsut train. It will take over in time.

[Grenadier]

Done this several times already. For all of the 90's, and some of the 2000's, I was living like a gypsy, moving from one town to another every few years (college, grad school, postdoc) and switched systems several times.

The best way to deal with it? Repetition, repetition, repetition. Anyone can condition their mind to deal with things, but the only way you can write more "muscle memory" is by performing the new techniques over and over and over.

Once you do this, you'll find that your previous experience is going to compliment, rather than conflict with, your new system.

[MJS]

I am curious if anyone else on this forum has had similiar issues with learning a new art and finding instinctively that movements from a past system interferes?

I am trying to free/empty my mind of my past system (for the sake of learning a new art) but not forget the past system (if that makes sense).

No, I have not had this problem. Reason being, the arts that I study really are not that similar to one another. For example, I think it may be a bit more confusing if someone were to study 2 kicking arts at the same time. Most likely the same or similar kicks in each art, but application could be different.

For myself, Kenpo, my base art, takes care of my stand up work. Arnis blends in great with it and BJJ takes care of the ground. 3 different arts, yet they all have a habit of blending in with each other. :)

[Christina05]

Done this several times already. For all of the 90's, and some of the 2000's, I was living like a gypsy, moving from one town to another every few years (college, grad school, postdoc) and switched systems several times.

The best way to deal with it? Repetition, repetition, repetition. Anyone can condition their mind to deal with things, but the only way you can write more "muscle memory" is by performing the new techniques over and over and over.

Once you do this, you'll find that your previous experience is going to compliment, rather than conflict with, your new system.
I agree the key is to train your mine that the new art is the dominate art now. Just keep working at it. Soon it will all come togeather.

[qi-tah]

I am curious if anyone else on this forum has had similiar issues with learning a new art and finding instinctively that movements from a past system interferes?

Yeah, totally! I used to do a bit of Muay Thai and still get told off for lifting my knees during sparring in my Ba gua class ! (this is after 5 years of ba gua, btw!! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif) It only comes out when i feel under pressure, but it's still down there. Sometimes i wonder if it's a bad habit or not. It often buys me a bit of space or time, but more than once has landed me on my arse. I guess every technique has it's place... it's just knowing (or learning!) the best time to use it. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif



I am trying to free/empty my mind of my past system (for the sake of learning a new art) but not forget the past system (if that makes sense).

That's it... i don't know that it's helpful to beat the old conditioned moves out of yrself - i just like to note when they spontaneously arise, and hopefully find a way to work them into the way my body moves now. Sometimes they get ditched in that process anyway, but it seems silly to totally chuck out arts you've previously practised.

[gardawamtu]

I've found that the systems I've dabbled in have primarily complemented each other. My first one was American Kenpo, then Tai Chi when my kenpo school closed. Now, I am at a MMA-oriented gym doin boxing and kickboxing for fitness.

The only thing I have noticed there is that my Kenpo "neutral bow" is very engrained in me. The boxing instructor tells me to keep my front foot at 90 degrees, but I can't seem to give up on both feet at 45 degrees. All that practice of short form 1 has set it in stone.

The other problem I'm having is with the Muay Thai push-kick. I'm so conditioned to snapping all kicks, but understand that in a ring, the push kick has its advantages.

[tellner]

All the time. Judo->fencing or karate wasn't bad. There wasn't enough similarity to screw anything up. But going from Kajukenbo to Jun Fan/Muay Thai/Eskrima there were some serious cross-training issues. Switching to Silat caused even more. Of course, I've gotten deeper into Silat than anything else.

I've noticed that Karate in its variations including TKD, TSD and Okinawa-based Kempo has presented the most problems for people who try to pick up Silat or Eskrima. There are things about the footwork, the attitude and aspect, the body mechanics and more than anything else the rhythm which just basically seem incompatible.

One thing is the tendency for such people to have a first reaction of "hey diddle-diddle, straight up the middle" which leads to some cognitive dissonance when you have to yield center, go offline, cross-step or evade while entering.

Another part is timing. There's a tendency to time the arrival of the foot and the hand to come together. Good SE Asian MA are a little more freeform with the hands and feet moving in a coordinated but independent fashion. If you've got some chops it can turn into syncopated 16th notes :eek:

There's also a tendency among many, not [Western|Thai] boxers or some of the kung fu stylists, to block (often with a half step back) and then hit. It took me years to get broken of that habit.

Then there's facing. Most people square off with their opponents. I had a lot of trouble with other facings - sideways, closed side, oblique and eventually "It doesn't matter".

[Ceicei]

Most of my problems with cross training (American Kenpo and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu) were with the stances. My stances are very, very much kenpo and sometimes it is difficult to transition to the stances done with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Other than that stance problem, I don't have too much trouble with distinguishing what moves are with which style, and DZR complements Kenpo very well.

- Ceicei

[Emptyhand]

I appreciate all the replies.

I am not trying to "loose" the knowledge of KM, merely trying to avoid the "instinctual" reactions from KM for the sake of learning a new art. I think instinctively that in either case if attacked at least I know "something" will happen for the good. :-)

Since I am a newb in American Kenpo, as stated before it will no doubt take repetition over and over again to allow my AK to dominate certain responses.

I just was curious if others had similiar issues and it sounds like for some that was the case.

I would like to complement my AK with a ground based art like BJJ at some point, but I want to become very proficient in AK first. Then perhaps move on to a weapon(s) training.

Again, thank you to everyone that posted.

[MJS]

I've found that the systems I've dabbled in have primarily complemented each other. My first one was American Kenpo, then Tai Chi when my kenpo school closed. Now, I am at a MMA-oriented gym doin boxing and kickboxing for fitness.

The only thing I have noticed there is that my Kenpo "neutral bow" is very engrained in me. The boxing instructor tells me to keep my front foot at 90 degrees, but I can't seem to give up on both feet at 45 degrees. All that practice of short form 1 has set it in stone.

The other problem I'm having is with the Muay Thai push-kick. I'm so conditioned to snapping all kicks, but understand that in a ring, the push kick has its advantages.

Dont feel bad, you're not alone on this. I usually try to focus on more of a boxing stance than the typical neutral bow, when sparring. You're right on the spot when you spoke of things being engrained.

Mike

[Drac]

Yep...Spent so many years in some discipline of karate that when I transfered to Combat Hapkido I had a difficult time at first...The worst time for me was AFTER I became a cop...I spend the first 10 years in a right side bladed stance..NOW with a gun on that side I had to redo my way of standing..Don't want to offer the bad guys my weapon now do I??

[karatekid1975]

I STILL have a problem with that. I did TSD for a little over a year first. I haven't been in TSD for 5 and 1/2 years, and I still see/do TSD in TKD. The kicks were/are pretty much the same, so no problems there. The stances are pretty much the same, except for walking stance (no walking stance in TSD). I had a hard time with that. I wanted to do a front stance in Taegeuk 1 and 2! I've gotten better at it, but I'm still having trouble with hand techniques after all these years. I still try to do the double block in Taegeuk 7 the way I learned it in Pyung An Sam Dan! Sheesh LOL. Well, those two forms are similar in many movements (but not all). And it still throws me for a loop LOL.

[bushidomartialarts]

I've had and seen this problem pretty often. My favorite was trying to get a fencing master to stay in neutral bow stance: turn that front foot. turn that front foot! turn that &*&*()& front &*()& foot, ()&*(&)!It's a problem, but not enough so to make the cross training not worth it.

[meth18au]

Yeh...totally understand this!!! I used to do Southern Preying Mantis, now a student of Muay Thai. SPM involved a strong, stable stance, with both feet planted into the floor. Then I get told to be on my toes all the time, and I felt like I was losing that hard-worked for connection to the ground!!! But I did get used to it eventually just by training, training and more training. Another thing that really got me was the way I had to re-learn how to hold a normal fist. All our strikes in SPM were done with either open palm, phoenix eye or ginger fist. Every time I clenched my fist the knuckle on my index finger would be poking out with my thumb tucked in behind it!!! :lol2:

Good luck...

[jdinca]

I've only been at my current school, so no, I haven't had that problem. We do get a lot of transfers from other schools and some of them have trouble with the transition. The worst though has to be students that are/were dancers...

[Shotochem]

Yep, still do.

Switched from Shotokan to Kempo. Some things just keep bleeding into my techniques (no pun intended:)).

My stances still look a little Shotokany and on assorted techniques I just can't find that Kempo flow. It just keeps getting better everyday.

I have seen the power of the Darkside.....:jediduel:

-Marc-

[avm247]

Absolutely. My first art is Estalilla-Bansuelo Kabaroan Eskrima. January this year I started TKD. My stances were terrible, but I worked at it and have improved (but still have a long way to go!).

I still practice and teach my first art and I practice my second art as often as possible. Still, muscle memory is a hard thing to overcome, but it can be done. :)

[Xue Sheng]

First 2 arts (Jujitsu and TKD) interfered with my third taiji and after 3 years I thought I understood Taiji applications based on my first to arts.... that was until I started training with my second sifu and he proved to me I was clueless about taiji applications... way to much force and way to tense.

Almost 13 years later I know better.