Student testing the teacher

[foggymorning162]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

[Steel Tiger]

This situation is not uncommon. Teenage boys coming into their primacy are bound to test their various limits. The instructor in this case clearly knew this and understood. I think he handled it very well.

I have been in the situation a couple of times and dealt with it expeditiously. In both cases the boys suffered a little pain and understood they weren't quite ready to try that sort of thing. The good thing was they were keen to learn what I had done to them, they didn't just resent being bested and sulk.

[ArmorOfGod]

Yes, I have had it happen a few times.
Every time, I reversed what the student did and made them tap. When that happens, you should make the move as quick and precise as you can. That way you "put the student back in his place." Needless to say, you don't want to hurt him, but you want to remind him who is the teacher. I hate to say that you want the student to look bad, but you do. Humility is a good thing.

AoG

[fnorfurfoot]

I have two boys in my class that have tried this a few times. Both are 15 and rather annoying. One has tried to screw around with me a number of times. In each occurance, I had to either lock him up or knock the wind out of him to stop his behavior. It took some time but he has finally come to realize that he shouldn't test me anymore. He jokes about his "punishments" as learning experiences.

[stickarts]

This happens from time to time although less and less over the years it seems. It is easily handled for me when it happens but moreso I watch closely at their reaction afterward.
Are they convinced of the technique now and took a lesson from it or does their attitude seem worse or unchanged?
Based on their reaction I decide how and when I will discuss it with them.

[searcher]

I have had this happen few times with teens and early 20's guys. The way to deal with it is summed up in two words: pain compliance. If you turn it around on them in short manor they will often not try it again.

[MBuzzy]

I was recently in a similar situation. We were teaching a Self Defense class to people from around the base. We had about 14 women and 2 men in their early 20s.

I was helping the two guys with some of the techniques and while demonstrated got some resistance. They had made comments already about things that we were teaching not working, so I explained how they worked and in what situation. When I was demonstrating on one of them, he resisted strongly at first and I just said "I promise you that these work, this is a learning environment, so please don't resist so that I can teach" the second time, he still resisted so I said "I can show you that these work if you would like, please let me teach." (the other guy wasn't resisting or commenting and seemed very eager to learn). The third time when he resisted, I made the technique work full speed and strength and made him tap....sure not to hurt him, but demonstrate that it works and resisting doesn't help.

After that, he because a very willing and eager participant of the class.

[jks9199]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.
Yes... And that's about the best way. Every once in a while, teens need a shock to their senses to bring them back to reality. The trick is that it's got to be immediate, and it's got to be controlled, not out of anger or frustration...

[stabpunch]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

'i'm not going to tell an assailant what technique i'm going to apply am I?'

In terms of sparring i expect my students to try and better me, otherwise what's the point of being an instructor?

[Hand Sword]

http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Not meant to anyone's post, just the topic of the thread. It's the emotion the topic raised in me. Coming up in the inner city, and dealing with those mind sets in the dojos, it was a regular thing, if not in action, but in attitude, or both. LOL!

[RITFencing]

It happens. Students, especially young ones, sometimes test their limits, as was mentioned. Boys tend to do so in the manner you describe, but I've seen girls do it too. I've also seen students get more passive aggressive and manage to follow the letter of what you tell them while completely (and intentionally) mucking things up and then trying to use it to prove that you don't know what you're doing. I've seen more girls than boys go for this way, but again, I've seen both genders do it.

You just have to be calm and in control of yourself and the situation. Put a quick stop to it however you need to, let the student know that they are out of line (I often just opt to talk to them, see if that works before taking any more drastic measures.) They're kids; don't expect perfect discipline and decorum the whole time. Mistakes happen, but the ability to be calm and deal with them appropriately (not too easily or too harshly) will not only minimize the damage from these little incidents, it will let the kids know that you are in control, you are fair, you are competent, and will therefore minimize (but not eliminate) future challenges to your authority.

Remember when you were in high school? I'm sure there was one teacher who always spazzed out when kids acted up. I'm sure that teacher was later given loads to spaz out about. I'm also sure you can remember a teacher who let the kids run over them, and soon found that the kids were running the show. Can you also remember a calm but strongminded teacher who kept things on task using the minimum force necessary? I'll bet that was the teacher you respected the most, and the one who had the least discipline problems, and probably the one who did the best job of educating.

[RITFencing]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

Sure, with advanced people. But beginners still need to learn the basics, and in a very chaotic environment, it will be difficult to do so. I find that it is best to start things in a vacuum to let students grasp a new technique, and then slowly move to more realistic applications.

[IWishToLearn]

I have this happen several times in class - but it's usually from the perspective of "what if I use this defense and it makes this happen" line, rather than the "let's see what the instructor would do if I messed with him" line.

I had one guy try to play the "that'll never work, I'll just do X" game with me during explanation of a principle. After a couple of times, I invited him to display his "X" , and whatever X he chose he wasn't to tell me what it was. He wound up with a sore tailbone and bruised elbows from being taken down and trying to fight me while he was heading towards the ground instead of letting me put him down gently, so instead he got to fight the ground...and the ground won. I think that makes Ground 42, Miscreants 0.

[RITFencing]

I have this happen several times in class - but it's usually from the perspective of "what if I use this defense and it makes this happen" line, rather than the "let's see what the instructor would do if I messed with him" line.

I had one guy try to play the "that'll never work, I'll just do X" game with me during explanation of a principle. After a couple of times, I invited him to display his "X" , and whatever X he chose he wasn't to tell me what it was. He wound up with a sore tailbone and bruised elbows from being taken down and trying to fight me while he was heading towards the ground instead of letting me put him down gently, so instead he got to fight the ground...and the ground won. I think that makes Ground 42, Miscreants 0.

Funny. :)

There's a fine line here, though, because if a student isn't being a jerk, saying "What if a person does X?" can just be another way of them saying "I don't understand why this technique will work," which is a very valid concern and one that should be addressed. Personally, I love having students ask me to explain why something will or will not work, because it shows that they're listening and thinking about what I'm saying, and because it gives me a chance to fill in gaps in their knowledge right there before they try things out and get REALLY confused.

In your example, though, I think you did exactly the right thing. The distinction between "possessed of honest and valid concerns" and "jerk" can be a very small one indeed. :)

[MBuzzy]

During a demonstration of the technique it is improper but if the technique relies on a perfect scenario in which to be applied you have to question it's efficiency.

One option is to say ok you go over there and i''l apply technique x. When you make the approach apply a different technique they aren't expecting. 'hey that's not fair!'.

'i'm not going to tell an assailant what technique i'm going to apply am I?'

In terms of sparring i expect my students to try and better me, otherwise what's the point of being an instructor?

If this is the case, how do you teach? If you can't instruct in a Vacuum as RITFencing said, then there is no way to teach a student how to execute the technique and the proper way to execute it.

Even if I approach them and apply a technique they aren't expecting, how will they even know what to do? People don't come to a Martial Arts or Self Defense class for the instructors to beat on them or so that they can just experiment until they figure something out. A beginner needs to be instructed how to react in certain situations.

No technique will ever be done in a perfect scenario, but if it is rehearsed enough times in perfect scenarios and also practised in unexpected scenarios (i.e. in the Dojo/Dojang), the human body builds muscle memory and will instinctively react...doing what it needs to do in any scenario.

Now more advanced students should not be learning in a vacuum, agreed whole heartedly. they should be tested and forced to investigate new way to counter attacks. Everyone has to start somewhere.

And though I am not an instructor...I don't believe that the majority of instructors are simply doing it to improve their sparring skills.

[MJS]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

This happens more times than not, especially with kids. The times that it did happen, I was able to just roll with it, saying something along the lines of, "And if he does this to counter me, he opens himself up for that!" Needless to say, it usually solves the problem. :) I always try to stress to people, kids and adults, that the need to get the base move down first. They need to understand the concepts of that and then worry about the 'what if' phase of the technique. I would usually leave some time during a class to go over that area. Take the base move, and show some possible counters, and then follow ups from that.

Mike

[kidswarrior]

Wow, I'm impressed with the quality of the replies here. I agree with almost everyone. As a day-job teacher of teens (yeah Hand Sword, inner city kids :ultracool), I can second the people who have said this is a teen thing--even an adolescent thing, and many experts believe for some males this can continue into their 20s.

So if it's normal for the development of 15 to early-20-somethings, we who teach should expect it. I know I'm not surprised when it happens. I just add the extra bit of pressure/leverage/make slight contact with the strike instead of stopping an inch short--whatever it takes to make the point. I've never had this fail, and I've never had a resisting student who got the 'black belt version' complain. They always smile as they pick themselves up (and their friends laugh), go back to their place in the lineup, and we continue on. For me, it's not a big deal. In fact, it's something some seem to need to develop into men and quality representatives of the Arts.

And by the way, by purple or blue belt, students know better than to try this anymore. It's usually only the newer students who are ignorant enough to challenge the instructor. :D

[MBuzzy]

And by the way, by purple or blue belt, students know better than to try this anymore. It's usually only the newer students who are ignorant enough to challenge the instructor. :D

By that point, most students have also gained the maturity to realize that things like this are done to teach. They have gotten over themselves and realized that it is for the betterment of everyone to learn and not try to prove anything. Plus, they've learned that they'll lose.

[jks9199]

There's a fine line here, though, because if a student isn't being a jerk, saying "What if a person does X?" can just be another way of them saying "I don't understand why this technique will work," which is a very valid concern and one that should be addressed. Personally, I love having students ask me to explain why something will or will not work, because it shows that they're listening and thinking about what I'm saying, and because it gives me a chance to fill in gaps in their knowledge right there before they try things out and get REALLY confused.


I agree; the line can be very fine indeed, but most of us know the difference between someone being a smartaleck or testing the teacher, someone just being a PITA, and someone honestly confused or curious. Each takes a different response. PITAs are best handled by being ignored (it's often the attention their after, anyway!). The confused need to have it explained again and the curious should be encouraged. But the smartalecks or testers... They need a different approach. It is disrespectful -- but you have to put them down with respect, not anger.

[kidswarrior]

By that point, most students have also gained the maturity to realize that things like this are done to teach. They have gotten over themselves and realized that it is for the betterment of everyone to learn and not try to prove anything. Plus, they've learned that they'll lose. Yes, exactly, and this is my goal as a teacher from day one.

[clfsean]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.


I teach CMA at a local college & have had that happen before with kids of all ages there. I'm a normal sized guy that's about average for a 37 year old in decent shape. They would think that I'm soft because I'm not all cut up or look like a ... whatever they were expecting.

I've thumped a few of them before at times. Not hard mind you & never with malice, just to teach a lesson in intent & focus on the technique. It normally only takes once & it never happens again. A line has to be drawn before the student looses respect for the teacher. The students need to see why they're students & not teachers.

[Em MacIntosh]

When I was a young buck I used to ask questions on techniques and a few "what ifs" but there was no question about sensei's ability. He told me once he wouldn't be standing still either. We were always supposed to resist a little to test their technique but if we resisted too hard he'd show us a technique for that: a knee to the ribs or reverse an armbar to an outside wristlock and hit you on the way down. It didn't take long before we knew the happy medium. If we wanted the extra lesson he was happy to oblige.

[kidswarrior]

The students need to see why they're students & not teachers.

A key point. :asian:

[Ceicei]

Although this is typical of teenagers and young adults, I have seen this type of testing the teacher from student adults (late 20's-30's).

Their reasoning for testing does not necessarily seem to be to challenge, but more to see "show me how this really works". It appears to be more of a personality type (among the adults) than just an age factor (as with teens/young adults pushing the authority boundary).

Have any of you seen this too? There are quite a few stories I could share.

- Ceicei

[RITFencing]

Have any of you seen this too? There are quite a few stories I could share.

Ceicei, here's one that happened to a friend of mine at a tournament.

His background, by the way, is that as a competitive fencer he was a 2 time Junior (under 20) national men's sabre champion, and made several US National teams at the Cadet (under 17), Junior and Senior (anybody) level. This means you fence in all the world cup events and the world championships, and to make a team you need to be in the top 4 fencers in the country your event. So, the dude knows his stuff.

Here's a quote from his blog:

"the girl, that was another story. she was like a petulant child. after every bout she loudly let everyone know she didnt want to be there. when i told her to make parry riposte in simo, she tried it and did it totally wrong, huge steps, parry so close to her body i am sure i saw the ground light flicker. then she would look at me and roll her eyes.


she dropped all her bouts, and stormed out. her dad asked me if she was done, i said she was done before she got there, and walked back to try to help the other kid. it turns out 100% were promoted, so even though she would have been last or 2nd worst seed, she could have fenced a DE. she was long gone from the venue, got black carded. oh well."

While you may not know all the fencing terminology, I think the student's actions there are still pretty clear. Her coach drove 90 minutes each way to help her and one other student at this tournament.

[charyuop]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

[kidswarrior]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

I think it's a question of the student's motivation. If they're just trying to make the teacher look bad, then as the teacher I'll make sure they 'understand it'. But if they respectfully and honestly believe they've found a hole in the technique, by all means, let's explore and see. As a teacher, I'm always looking to get better, and admit I don't know it all by any means; and yes, I have no problem telling this to the whole class and giving credit where due.

[foggymorning162]

Hi thanks everyone for answering. I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better, there isn't anything wrong with saying "hey I want to try to get out of the hold" or "what if I did this or that" and your uke should make the technique as realistic as possible for training, but when the teacher is using you to demonstrate it's disrespectful to try and not allow them to do the technique all of our teachers are more than willing to go over things after class or if he had said that he wanted to try and resist I'm sure the teacher would have let him -after he demonstrated the technique to the rest of the class-. I thought the teacher handled it well I'm just not sure if I would have.

[kidswarrior]

I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better....
OOOOHHHHH, in that case, your teacher was a better man than I. :asian: If a soon-to-be-black-belt intentionally and publicly tried to make me look foolish when I was teaching, well, he'd be on his own with the results. :D

How could one go through the process of training for black and not develop some humility, if for no other reason than just knowing how fragile and vulnerable the human body really can be? I mean, when you've been hurt enough, and seen friends hurt, you should begin to understand that we can any of us be hurt. Just takes the right guy(s) at the wrong time on an off day.

[jks9199]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

There's a time and a place. If I'm trying to teach a particular technique or demonstrate a certain principle to a student who's trying to learn it -- it doesn't help them if I have to change in the middle and do something else. The time for increasing the resistance is while you're working on it with your partner. Start out letting them work it, then after a few times through, as they get the idea, increase the speed or resistance, or try a different angle.


Hi thanks everyone for answering. I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better, there isn't anything wrong with saying "hey I want to try to get out of the hold" or "what if I did this or that" and your uke should make the technique as realistic as possible for training, but when the teacher is using you to demonstrate it's disrespectful to try and not allow them to do the technique all of our teachers are more than willing to go over things after class or if he had said that he wanted to try and resist I'm sure the teacher would have let him -after he demonstrated the technique to the rest of the class-. I thought the teacher handled it well I'm just not sure if I would have.

It happens a lot as students get close to black belt. They're feeling confident, and they want to look good in front of their classmates... Egos are a terrible thing to behold when they grow a little too large!

[Ceicei]

OOOOHHHHH, in that case, your teacher was a better man than I. :asian: If a soon-to-be-black-belt intentionally and publicly tried to make me look foolish when I was teaching, well, he'd be on his own with the results. :D

How could one go through the process of training for black and not develop some humility, if for no other reason than just knowing how fragile and vulnerable the human body really can be? I mean, when you've been hurt enough, and seen friends hurt, you should begin to understand that we can any of us be hurt. Just takes the right guy(s) at the wrong time on an off day.

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

[Steel Tiger]

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes. As far as I know he only ever had one student who genuinely challenged his authority and he was an adult (it is a university school).

There is another point that I have just thought about. My teacher's school is at a university so there are a lot of students coming in from small towns in the middle of nowhere. More than once we have seen the "big fish in a small pond" transition to being a "small fish in a big pond" and have real problems finding their place.

[kidswarrior]

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

Interesting point, Ceicei. Having not promoted anyone to near-black belt yet (only two years into my group), haven't seen this in earnest. Guess I have s.th. to look forward to. :ultracool I will say that in one of the two main schools I attended during my mostly-student days, it would have been suicide to physically challenge the instructor. In the other, it would have been foolish, but maybe possible.


Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes.I believe your instructor was a wise man, Steel Tiger, as well as an honest one. Any of us who claims never to make a mistake or forget anything (as in, 'brain cramp') is just not being honest with him-/herself. Everyone else is under no such illusion about us. :D

[Rich Parsons]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

I have been tested before. Teenage and adult males have been the ones to test.

I did have a nice one at a seminar. While I was explaining a technique I was facing the crowd/class and this guy moved to strike me. I was monitoring his stick with my empty hand and realized unconsciously/consciously that it was gone so I moved to block automatically. He was so surprized that I had blocked him without even looking at him. ;)

Some may have been upset by such an action. I just smiled and let it go.

[MJS]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

But should that take away from the main lesson? IMO, no, it should not. I'm not saying its not important to work the 'what if' part of a technique, but get the basic technique down first, then worry about the 'what if' phase. Progressively add resistance. But if a student can't get the basic defense, they're not going to be able to figure out what to do when the person starts to counter.

[charyuop]

But should that take away from the main lesson? IMO, no, it should not. I'm not saying its not important to work the 'what if' part of a technique, but get the basic technique down first, then worry about the 'what if' phase. Progressively add resistance. But if a student can't get the basic defense, they're not going to be able to figure out what to do when the person starts to counter.

As I said I might have misunderstood and probably I did. I thought we were talking about a teacher and a student on the mat practicing. Reading all replies it seem the case here is during a technique demonstration for the rest of the class...in which I agree with you, Uke has to play the "crush dummy" so that the rest of the class can learn and start practicing it.

[charyuop]

Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes. As far as I know he only ever had one student who genuinely challenged his authority and he was an adult (it is a university school).

There is another point that I have just thought about. My teacher's school is at a university so there are a lot of students coming in from small towns in the middle of nowhere. More than once we have seen the "big fish in a small pond" transition to being a "small fish in a big pond" and have real problems finding their place.

I have heard my Sensei many times saying I might not be doing this technique perfectly myself or seen him a couple of times with a technique not going exactly the way he wanted. I have never thought my Sensei is perfect and I am sure a more experienced Aikidoka might point out if there is something he is doing wrong (coz for sure I can't, his techniques to me look all perfect). But the quality that I see in my Sensei, and I think every teacher should have, is not the one of never make mistakes (I guess we agree only God can), but it is the quality of being in control. Making a mistake but recovering it immediately without giving time to the partner on the mat to even realize what just happened is what makes a Sensei "infallible".

[cbursk]

Jeepers, when this topic first posted I never realized how common this was.

I had my first instance of this in years happen just the other day with one of my young 2nd degrees who recently started wrestling with his high school team. After gently demonstrating an arm bar take down to the class and getting back up, he suddenly stiffened up and attempted to take my back. The first second I was a little confused. I remember thinking what is this kid doing? Then I realized that the old man needs to show he still has some juice once in a while. I let him give it the old college try for a few seconds and then locked him into a triangle choke and started to slowly apply pressure to give him a chance to tap. I was little disappointed that it took him a second to realize that he had not only dug a hole but jumped right into it.

Afterward? The class was really pumped to see the old man still had it and I played it off with him like it was no big deal. I did mention it to him the next class to make sure that he realized that I was only demonstrating a technique and not free wrestle though.

[tradrockrat]

heh heh - try being 21 and teaching a college self defense class. I got at least one or two students in every class that thought they HAD to show me how tough they were. Never once had an issue with female students though. Most of the time it would be from somebody bigger than me (I was about 160-170 at the time) who just refused to believe that size isn't the only thing. The good news is that they genuinely wanted to learn, so all I ever had to do was up the speed and contact from "Slow-mo" to 3/4 speed (maybe a little more, but I didn't tell them that ;) ) and put them down on the mat.

Problem solved.

Did have one student walk out after class and never return though - felt bad about that

[charyuop]

Curiosity...has a student ever manged to surprise any of you teachers and actually pull out a good counter you were not able to get out of?

[Shotgun Buddha]

Ive seen this happen two ways in my club.
The first is where someone tries the whole "tough-guy-smash" routine, and start actively trying to hurt any partners who are smaller than them during basic technique training. What usually follows is my sensei, who is a small man, walk over and ask yon tough guy to do the same to him. Tough guy will punch, leg kick sensei etc as hard as they can, and then sensei will just sorta shrug it off and smile. Then he will very very carefully low kick the tough guy back, who will drop to the ground unable to stand.
One if the guys who this happened with went onto become one of our clubs nicest members and was in future always careful to work at the training partners level and ability, rather than just bully them.

The second way tends to involve me, although it only happens every now and then. We will be giving a demonstration of a ground technique and I will play my part in it, letting him apply the technique properly. Then once everyone understands how the technique works, he will ask me not just to resist, but to actively fight back and try to win. What follows tends to be a minor war, which all the other students watch in fascination for a chance to see this being applied dynamically rather than just statically.

[jdinca]

I've only had to face this once. A young man walked up to me during class, put his hands around my throat and asked "what would you do if someone did this?". While he was coming to the grips with the fact his arms were suddenly up over his head, I pointed to his now open core and calmly said, "at this point, I would take you apart". Never had another problem with him.

By the time students have been around for awhile, the discipline within the school just doesn't allow this to happen. When it does, the student receives a mild lesson, usually a nonverbal one. :whip1: