Modern Arnis Symposium, MARRPIO and Datu Worden participation?

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This from the MARPIO site:


July 11, and 12, 2003, UNIVERSITY PLACE, TACOMA, WA.
SEMINAR LOCATION TO BE ANNOUNCED
Director KELLY S. WORDEN, e-mail : kellyworden@attbi.com
Phone: 253-564-2867

I guess this mean we won't be seeing the Presas' or Worden at the event.

[Red Blade]

Maybe they are scared of looking bad?

[Jinile Presas Calpe]

We wish to personally invite Red Blade to attend one of our seminars.

[Cruentus]

Out of curiosity, could you please tell me why MARPPIO and Datu Worden won't be teaching at the symposium (if that is indeed the case)?

It seems like a great opportunity for those of us on the east coast to see what both Worden and Marppio have to offer. I know that I was looking foward to seeing Marppio and Worden at the symposium, and I will be disappointed if either entity doesn't show.

Respectfully,

PAUL

[Red Blade]

Originally posted by Jinile Presas Calpe
We wish to personally invite Red Blade to attend one of our seminars.

Actually, I already attended one of the MARPPIO seminars in North Carolina. I thought you had good energy and were very enthusiastic. I also think you did quite well considering they have not trained with their father in twenty years. I saw a bunch of the old school Modern Arnis along with things I had never seen Professor teach. All in all, I would recommend it to all to try it at least once.

Personally this is not something I would continue doing. My personal journey in Modern Arnis is to continue where GM Presas left off. I think that there are several groups out there that can offer that to me. I don't feel the Presas family can. They have missed twenty years of their father's research and development which would make it very hard for them to know where their father took the system, let alone take it to the next level.

I also find it strange that Rodel Dagooc is at many of the events. I get the impression that he is their safety blanket. If this is the business that the children have chosen to go into they should be strong enough to do this on their own and not bring a baby sitter along to keep them out of trouble. Could it be, that at the symposium, many of the instructors who have been training with the Professor until the final days, may prove how little the MARPPIO group knows?

This is not a threat, challenge or slamfest. This is just my opinion based on my personal observations.

[Jinile Presas Calpe]

Date: 7/16/2002 - 8:04 AM
Name: Guro Harold Evans (Palusut - MT han
Email: mail_harold@yahoo.com
Site: http://
Location: , NC, USA
Comments: MARPPIO's seminars are incredible!!!! I attended a two-day MARPPIO seminar in Durham, NC last April 2002 and had an outstanding time of training with them. MARPPIO were excellant hosts and were passionate regarding sharing their family art of Modern Arnis. There was an outpouring of information and sweat but the end result was an awesome time of instruction from Remy P. Presas, Demetrio Presas and Senior Master Rodillo Dagooc. Please if you have an opportunity, check them out!

Date: 5/4/2002 - 8:24 PM
Name: Guro Lyndon Johnson
Email: drjohnson@hwarangwarrior.com
Site: http:// hwarangwarrior.com
Location: Mount Olive, North Carolina, USA
Comments: I just attended the Raleigh, NC MARPPIO seminar and it was excellent. The Presas familiy members are well versed in the art of Modern Arnis. The training was intense and impressive. The spirit of the Professor lives on in his children and I am looking forward to training with them again. The advanced level of instruction they have was obvious right away.

Date: 4/28/2002 - 8:36 PM
Name: JUNE
Email: JLEKICKS@AOL.COM
Site: http://
Location: Morrisville, NC, USA
Comments: I really enjoyed the seminar in NC. Even though I had no previous experience in Arnis you all cared that I learn the basic skills required to give me a foundation in stick and knife fighting. I'm sure I will need to become skilled in weapons if I am to succeed as a school owner and instructor in the future, and especially since I plan on starting the police academy this August! I would like to see some techniques from your book, and terminology put on the internet! Thank you for being great role models for aspiring masters.

(taken from marppio guestbook) www.modernarnis.com

[Guro Harold]

Jinile, Red Blade:

I stand by my endorsement for everyone to attend a MARPPIO seminar but this is not my beef.

Red Blade, Rodel is one of the highest ranked belts under the Professor and he is highly respected. If he is dedicating his time to help MARPPIO get off the ground, then that is a matter of MARPPIO.

Jinile, sharing my personal endorsement does not address Red Blade's concerns, please address them specifically if you choose to do so.

Palusut

[dearnis.com]

The MARPPIO comments are really secondary to the thread. I have not seen the group in action, although I am hoping that my work schedule allows me to attend the next seminar offered in my area.
I think the question is have MARPPIO and/or Datu Worden withdrawn from Jerome Barber's Symposium, if so why, and if so what are the implications for the event.

[arnisador]

Can you elaborate on the differences between the MARPPIO Modern Arnis and what the Professor had been doing recently? For example, how much emphasis do they plce on tapi-tapi?

[Cruentus]

Red Blade, Rodel is one of the highest ranked belts under the Professor and he is highly respected.

I don't think Red Blade ment any disrespect towards Rodel, but I think he ment it as more of a critique against MARRPIO.

I want to make the point that I think everyone should respect people for rank/titles that they have attained. I have never met Rodel, but I respect his rank. Same goes for Datu Worden and MARRPIO. I respect their rank/title/status, and opinions for that matter. I will not, however, say that anyone of them are any good. One can ASSUME that they are good, but until I watch them play and teach, and even feel the technique for myself I can't say anything (good or bad) about their skills.

Unfortunitally I don't have the time or the funds to travel the world to see what every M.A. teacher and eskrimador has to offer. Give it a few years before it'll be feasable. That is why the symposium, or something like it would be a good way to see some of the groups/people that I don't get to see. Plus, it will be easy to compare arnisadors when they are all teaching at the same event.

Since my question, or Red Blades question hasn't been answered clearly yet, I am starting to wonder myself if Red Blades conjecture isn't at least somewhat valid (the conjecture being that some of the invited instructors may not show, or ever show to an event like the symposium bacause they fear comparison).

Could someone please explain, and prove the conjecture wrong if it is?

Thank You,
PAUL

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by PAUL
I don't think Red Blade ment any disrespect towards Rodel, but I think he ment it as more of a critique against MARRPIO.


Hi Paul,

I think the point of Red Blade's criticism was not directed toward Rodel, but to the children, but that is from my perspective.I don't think that it was Red Blade's intent to disrespect Rodel and I don't think that he did so. I was answering to the critique of how much Rodel assisted them.

Again, Jinile and MARPPIO are the best at answering that, if they choose to do so.

Hi Arnisador,

I cannot answer for MARPPIO but from participating at their seminar and from working out and hanging out with them afterward, it appeared to me that their main emphasis currently is to re-introduce the basic fundamentals of Modern Arnis. To teach and to train as it used to be. Their next focus is on their version of tapi-tapi which they had not shown to the public at that time.

MT Adminstrators:

I agree with dearnis that this current topic is second to main topic. Should this be spun off?

Best regards,

Palusut

[dearnis.com]

Paul wrote:
"Unfortunitally I don't have the time or the funds to travel the world to see what every M.A. teacher and eskrimador has to offer. Give it a few years before it'll be feasable. That is why the symposium, or something like it would be a good way to see some of the groups/people that I don't get to see. Plus, it will be easy to compare arnisadors when they are all teaching at the same event."

My view differs a little bit. Depending on the day of the week the symposium promotions give it the air of a well-coordinated grudge match. I am not sure that I wouldnt rather hold judgement on some folks until I can see them teach on their own turf in their comfort zone.
I have seen instructors who I greatly respect on the mat where they felt they had something to prove; the experience was never as enjoyable as when the same instructors were teaching in a more positive environment. I am not sure that I need the Pepsi challenge to evaluate instructors; I can spend one or two days with someone, know what I think, and if I would go back.
Now I admit that I am somewhat spoiled because of where I live; my only issues with most seminars are "can I get the day off" and "is guro joe blow worth 25/45/65/90/ whatever of x number of hours."
That leads to my other reservation about the symposium; my job severely limits the amount of days off I can take in the summer and I can not even confirm those days off until a very late date. With the preregistration fee schedule that pushes the cost level to a point where I am really not interested in spending the money, particularly with underlying air of challenge I see developing.
While I can't speak for the instructors involved I think there is certainly an alternative explaination to Red Blade's.
(note that there is no endorsement or criticism, actual or implied, of Datu Worden and/or MARPPIO; I have zero mat time with either party).
Chad

[Cruentus]

Palusut: Point well taken. In regards to "their version of Tapi-Tapi" which has not been made public, it was suggested to me by more then one source that they don't actually know a version of Tapi-Tapi. That they hadn't been active in so long that they seriously don't know it; and that they'll hash together some sort of contemporary version at a later date.

Please understand that I'M not suggesting that this is the case at all because I have never seen them, so I really can't say. It is just what I have heard. Like what you had said, it's up to MARRPIO to clear the air on that.

dearnis: I see your point and agree that a head butting contest is not the best circumstance to see an instructor, but at least it is a circumstance to see them period, which I have yet to have.

One thing that has been bothering me about Red Blades comments is this: There was supposed to be a "Filipino Brotherhood" seminar in October (I believe) which would have featured MARRPIO, as well as other Modern Arnis and Filipino martial artists. It was not a "prove yourself" seminar by any means. The seminar was cancelled, and I had heard that part of the reason was because MARRPIO had backed out of the seminar. I only remember this because I had wanted to go to that seminar myself, particularly to see them. I remember looking at the MARRPIO schedule and not seeing any other events that would have prevented them from going to the Filipino Brotherhood seminar.

And now here is the symposium, of which it doesn't look like they'll be attending. Same with Datu Worden.

Granted, there could of been other circumstances involved, so I am not saying for sure whether or not Red Blade's suggestion is true or not, but givin the circumstance I am seriously beginning to wonder what is up.

And please, everyone understand that I really mean no disrespect at all so please don't take it the wrong way.

I would, however, like Jinile (or one of our many readers who can speak for MARRPIO or Datu Worden) to say something regarding the matter. Not only would it save me the trouble of a personal e-mail or call, but it would put to rest many concerns, I think.


:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Folks,
I see that Kelly is hosting Roland Dantes after committing to the Symposium. Well, committments do change. As to MARPPIO's not attending, Demetrio Presas told me himself he will be attending as he will be making that time his vacation time and he will be there for one day as he is vacationing with his family.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a note - I think (may be wrong) that the issues here are intertwined, and for now, can be left in 1 thread...though the thread should perhaps be renamed to : Modern Arnis Symposium, MARRPIO and Datu Worden participation?

But thats my uneducated opinion... Please, those in the know, feel free to how to best handly/split this correctly. Or, feel free to spin off a new thread. :)

:asian:

[Lunumbra]

This kind of thread, who knows what, how long did they train with the Professor, what did they learn as opposed to what someone else learned five years previously or five years later.........

IS PRECISELY WHY DOCTOR B IS SETTING UP THE SYMPOSIUM IN THE FIRST PLACE! All this typing in the forums isn't going to prove anything. There have been a lot of opinions stated, well stated. But not many of us know any of the others personally. Without some personal knowledge of the forumites posting hear, how much stock can any of us really put in an opinion expressed here. The symposium is set up so that students of the Professor can compare notes on what they learned at different times of the Professor's teaching. Only if you show up, will you REALLY learn anything, about Arnis, or the people who show up.

I'm a TOTAL beginner in Arnis, but I'm going. This is an opportunity that is simply to good to pass up. It would be a shame if anyone who was a direct student of the Professor's decided they couldn't come.

[Cruentus]

As to MARPPIO's not attending, Demetrio Presas told me himself he will be attending as he will be making that time his vacation time and he will be there for one day as he is vacationing with his family.


Great! I have talked to Demetrio on the phone before, and he seemed very cool. It would be great to see him at the symposium. Question: Will he be teaching or just visiting?

Kaith: I think that renaming the thread would be appropriate.

:cool:

[dearnis.com]

"I'm a TOTAL beginner in Arnis, but I'm going. This is an opportunity that is simply to good to pass up. It would be a shame if anyone who was a direct student of the Professor's decided they couldn't come."

This is what I personally disagree with. I am not knocking the idea, nor am I saying don't go. If the event fits your schedule, finances, and so on, wonderful.

I have trained with the majority of the presenters; I have my opinions which are based on more than observing a 1-2 hour block of instruction.
As to those I haven't seen; well it appears that at least two groups will not be respresented.

Is this a great opportunity; yes it is. Is attending the only way I will "learn ANYTHING, about arnis, or the people who show up"? That is a stretch.

respectfully.
Chad

PS Have to agree with Paul; the thread is evolving into something other that what it started as.

[Pappy Geo]

What is this an east coast Vs west coast spitting contest again? Have you considered what it would cost for the Presas family and Datu Worden to fly out and stay in a hotel, rent a car, eat in restaurants? Loss of income for the week from their normal jobs? Any body offering to subsidize their costs?

Consider that they can come to Tacoma for a long weekend, share their knowledge, be treated like family with much respect, earn enough to pay expenses, have a great time and go home with a surplus$$ and much satisfaction.

I personally know they have much knowledge to share and that they have a deep background in Tapi Tapi, maybe a different approach than you are used to but isn't that what we are after and hunger for is putting all the different pieces together?

Doesn't Datu Hartman have a different style from the MOTTS? How about Sr Master Dan Anderson? you know he is going to have a style of his own, I know Datu Worden has his uniqueness. Wouldn't that be true of all the leaders in Modern Arnis? Isn't that what made Modern Arnis so valuable was ability to work it in with your existing foundation? An Art within your Art?

The Presas family are the heirs to the system, MARRPIO is the official recognized Modern Arnis organization by the Phillipino Government. The highest ranked Modern Arnis Sr Masters like Rodillo and Roland Dantes endorse the family as the heirs. Doesn't any of that mean anything to you people? Further they don't claim the Grandmaster title and the older generation will never claim it!

That doesn't mean they are trying to take over anybody else's system within the umbrella of Modern Arnis, quite the contrary, they just want to share and encourage growth of Modern Arnis!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are very good people, very talented and more than willing to spread the art.

Please show respect for the family!

George Hoover
Northwest, USA

[Corey Minatani]

Hi everyone:

Just a note from one of Datu Worden's Students. The following is purely my point, does not represent Datu's, but may help.

First of all, Datu Worden does have quite a busy schedule, to date he is currently working on two books and has a contract with the ARMY to train special forces soldiers 3 days a week. I know he's on vacation on Hawaii, and has arrangements to do seminars there, so even when he takes time for the family, its coupled with work.

Second of all, who ever is putting on the symposium should be where the questions should be addressed to as to "is Datu Worden coming or not." There might be some financial things such as airfare or hotels and things of that such that are usually taken care of for high caliber instructors such as Datu Worden. I seriously cant see Datu flying in, finding his own hotel, work for free (martial artists who are married know some wives dont care what and who the seminar is for, what does it pay? Although I know Datu's wife, this is probably not the case, as for me, yes!). In any scenario for instructors, there are such things as overhead to observe.

Third, why can't there be two symposiums? One on the east and west sides? I know SM Dan Anderson commited to doing a tribunal of sorts with Datu Worden and Professor Trigg. Maybe some of the other guys at this symposium can email Datu W. for info and teach? I'm sure Datu will be very accomodating. But I think shooting this thought or that among the forum without talking to Datu or MARPPIO group is just blowing hot air. Email almost takes nothing to do, and Datu is very approachable and his email is posted everywhere. You can also email me as well, and I can forward it, just include real name, please.

Corey Minatani



:asian:

[dearnis.com]

I dont think anyone is setting out to bash Datu Worden or make an east coast vs. west coast issue.
I think there are people on the east coast who would like to see Datu Worden teach; that is likely the source of some of the posts here.
(As I said above, I have not been on the mat with him, and I certainly think I owe it to myself to see first hand how his approach to Modern Arnis differs from what I have seen. Besides, I need an excuse to see Washington State.....)
If travel costs are an issue then so be it. The cost of the symposium is certainly a factor to some of us on the east coast as well.
Chad

[Cruentus]

Pappa Geo: For efficiency, I would like to take what you said point by point.


What is this an east coast Vs west coast spitting contest again? Have you considered what it would cost for the Presas family and Datu Worden to fly out and stay in a hotel, rent a car, eat in restaurants? Loss of income for the week from their normal jobs? Any body offering to subsidize their costs?


East Coast Vs. West Coast spitting contest? I hope it won't turn into that; I don't think it has yet. I think a lot of people haven't considered the costs for them to come over. Instructors are usually paid for their efforts, but I have no idea how much $$ is involved for the symposium, and how much instructors are being offered. That is a valid point though; there are a lot of instructors at the symposium and there might not be enough doe to cover travel and costs for someone out west to come to New York.

It happends, though. Dan Anderson was in Michigan over the weekend, and I know that Tim travels the world to teach. MARRPIO has been on the East Coast before too, just unfortunatily not near enough to Michigan where I could see them. Somehow it is worth it to these instructors to make the trip, so I guess that it depends on the situation. That is why I asked "why" instead of just making an assumption.


Consider that they can come to Tacoma for a long weekend, share their knowledge, be treated like family with much respect, earn enough to pay expenses, have a great time and go home with a surplus$$ and much satisfaction.


That's one thing to consider. Could they arrange or have arranged a trip to New York and recieve the same? That is another thing to consider as well. I really do not know.


I personally know they have much knowledge to share and that they have a deep background in Tapi Tapi, maybe a different approach than you are used to but isn't that what we are after and hunger for is putting all the different pieces together?

Doesn't Datu Hartman have a different style from the MOTTS? How about Sr Master Dan Anderson? you know he is going to have a style of his own, I know Datu Worden has his uniqueness. Wouldn't that be true of all the leaders in Modern Arnis? Isn't that what made Modern Arnis so valuable was ability to work it in with your existing foundation? An Art within your Art?


Well said! I know that every instructor is unique, which is why I would like to see them all at least once. At least what cost and time allows, of course.


The Presas family are the heirs to the system, MARRPIO is the official recognized Modern Arnis organization by the Phillipino Government. The highest ranked Modern Arnis Sr Masters like Rodillo and Roland Dantes endorse the family as the heirs. Doesn't any of that mean anything to you people? Further they don't claim the Grandmaster title and the older generation will never claim it!

That doesn't mean they are trying to take over anybody else's system within the umbrella of Modern Arnis, quite the contrary, they just want to share and encourage growth of Modern Arnis!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I definatily agree that we should respect people for their titles, as I said before. I have talked to Demetrio and Remy Jr. myself. They were very nice to me over the phone, and carried themselves in a pleasent and respectful manner. I have even thought about bringing them to Michigan, but do to time constraints with my current job (and that I am not a career martial artist) it doesn't look like it will be feasable for a while, at least not with me as the host. I wouldn't be able to put the time and effort in necissary to promote them. I do have much respect for them, however. This is only based on my tiny interaction with them.

A side comment about the "respect" issue, though. People should be respected for what they have, and what they've earned. No doubt. But given the state of professor when he passed away, and the way rank/title was treated over the years, it is not fair to expect people to just ASSUME that someone is skillful at the art because they've earned this rank or that. No one, whether experienced or not can nor should do that. Under the circumstances of Modern Arnis today, everyone that is a leader (and who wants to remain a leader) will have to prove themselves eventually. They will have to prove themselves by their accomplishments, their behavior, and most importantly their skill. No one is exempt, not for rank, title, nationality, or last name.

I can say that at least to me when I talked to them, 2 of the Presas children have shown that they're leadership by their actions. I cannot attest to their skill, however, because I have yet to see them in action. It is as simple as that.

About the Tapi-tapi comment that I made: I don't know if that is the truth, as I have stated. That is a rumor that has been circulating around that I have heard on more then one occasion out of more then one organization. So please, don't kill the messenger; I don't like rumors either (at least false ones) but that is why I mentioned it. I was hoping that either a). someone could temporary clear the air by explaining the MARRPIO version of TAPI-TAPI and that b). I could experience their skill for myself someday.



They are very good people, very talented and more than willing to spread the art.

Please show respect for the family!


Well said. I can't speak for everyone else here, but I certianly don't mean to disrespect anyone. That includes MARRPIO and Datu Worden. I just call things as I see them. That is just for the record.

Thanks,
PAUL
:cool:

[Corey Minatani]

If anyone is looking to get a glimpse of what Datu Worden has to offer, check out his website or go to paladinpress.com! There one will see 20 some videos that are reasonably priced.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
The MARPPIO comments are really secondary to the thread. I have not seen the group in action, although I am hoping that my work schedule allows me to attend the next seminar offered in my area.
I think the question is have MARPPIO and/or Datu Worden withdrawn from Jerome Barber's Symposium, if so why, and if so what are the implications for the event.

Dear Chad,

The implications are really quite simple - THE ORIGINAL MODERN ARNIS SYMPOSIUM - 2003, being hosted by me, WILL GO FORWARD and IT WILL BE HELD AS SCHEDULED! I have a couple of private e-mails to write before I say too much more on this topic. Since I have received guarentees from Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Tim Hartman, Tom Bolden, Duwad Muhammud, Rocky Paswik and Peter Vargas that they will be there to teach, the deal goes forward.

Dieter Knuttel, has expressed a strong interest in attending. Demetrio Presas, Dan McConnell, David Ng and Doug Pierre are scheduled to be at the ORIGINAL MODERN ARNIS SYMPOSIUM! Since none of those in the latter group have indicated to me that they will not be at the event, I will plan on seeing them there.

Now it is time for me to go private and get some answers.

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Pappy Geo]

Thank you Paul for your considerate posting and Dr. Barber if you are planning to email Datu Worden he enroute to Hawaii and won't be back back till after Christmas

[Rich Parsons]

Videos are good:

Yet I really had looked forward to meeting Datu Kelly Worden.

I fully understand the cost of travelling. And I agree it can be an issue.

When the idea first was raised I think it was mentioned to either have it centrally located or to have it rotate. Given this idea, I had hoped that the West coast would be present. I really had hoped to meet them.

This is not a bash against any one at all, only me personal opinion that I would have liked to meet in person some of these people.


Well I hope that Kelly and Rodell do well as with the MARPIO organization. I have had e-mail traffic with Dimetrio and Remy Jr. and both have been very polite and up front about information if I had any questions. I have not had the privilege to work with them or to see them. I had hoped to see them there as well.

Train Well and have a nice day

Rich
:asian:

[dearnis.com]

Some clarification on Datu Worden and video;
I have some of his tapes; he has always been receptive to questions via email, but that is not the same as getting hands on time on the mat with someone.

Chad

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Corey Minatani


Third, why can't there be two symposiums? One on the east and west sides?

Corey Minatani


This is not a bad idea, but with the nature of this event it would have been only right not to run an event on the same weekend as Dr. Barbers. I feel that these actions are questionable at best.

[Pappy Geo]

Datu Hartman:

You represent a senior leadership position in Modern Arnis, as a leader wouldn't it have been better to have personally discuss the whys with MARRPIO and Datu Worden rather than state an uninformed opinion?

This event in Tacoma had been pre-planned a year ago for this time slot, over 60 students from Canada to California had made pre-plans to return to Tacoma for the MARRPIO seminar at the same time slot. They have set aside a few days vacation time, made travel arrangements, we have pre-booked a hall that is large enough to accommodate that many students, prearranged for a caterer.

Are you suggesting since the trip cannot be made back east that the pre-planned seminar should be canceled and that everybody on the West coast should sacrifice and stay home and self flagellate?

Tim, I have met you and know you are very talented and a nice person, respectfully please review your thoughts regarding your last posting and try to understand the validity of this situation.

George Hoover

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Thank you Paul for your considerate posting and Dr. Barber if you are planning to email Datu Worden he enroute to Hawaii and won't be back back till after Christmas

Thank you for that piece of information. I have already e-mailed him and I will wait for his reply. Part of this is going to be strictly between he and I because of an agreement that we had. It would be helpful if people avoided speculating on any of these matters until I hear from Kelly directly.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Datu Hartman:

You represent a senior leadership position in Modern Arnis, as a leader wouldn't it have been better to have personally discuss the whys with MARRPIO and Datu Worden rather than state an uninformed opinion?

This event in Tacoma had been pre-planned a year ago for this time slot, over 60 students from Canada to California had made pre-plans to return to Tacoma for the MARRPIO seminar at the same time slot. They have set aside a few days vacation time, made travel arrangements, we have pre-booked a hall that is large enough to accommodate that many students, prearranged for a caterer.

Are you suggesting since the trip cannot be made back east that the pre-planned seminar should be canceled and that everybody on the West coast should sacrifice and stay home and self flagellate?

Tim, I have met you and know you are very talented and a nice person, respectfully please review your thoughts regarding your last posting and try to understand the validity of this situation.

George Hoover

PapaGeo,

There may be other considerations with regard to timing that you are unaware of and therefore you as well as others are engaged in specualtion. Appearence as well as substance need to be considered and as I posted above I am waiting for any answer to three simple questions that I posted privately to Kelly.

The west coast vs. east coast thing is red herring. The cost issue is quite real not only for those who want to attend an event including the Symposium that I am hosting, as it is for me me as the host. And since you raised that cost consideration in another post, I will address it here. If someone can not afford the costs they will not attend the event. As the host I have cost consderations that I must meet upfront and regardless of how many people attend, as does any event host.

Concerning the hotel accomedations that you mentioned in an earlier post, please do not insult me with that idea. I have been hosting seminars and camps since 1985. No one who was coming to an event that I have hosted as the featured presenter, was ever placed in the position of finding their own lodging or meals. The actual fact is that it was too early to give the information to Kelly or anyone elase as to accomedations, but be assured that I have the plan in place and I know who will be assisting me in providing transportation to and from the airport to the hotels.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Bob Hubbard]

From the WMAC forum. Posted here for convenience of our members who do not surf there.

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=65411#65411

Kelly S. Worden
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 396
Location: Tacoma, Wa. U.S.A.

Yes Indeed,
I was forwarded the petty little statements from Martialslander.com,, how brave are those who post under internet names such as limpwood, scabpicker, rustyblade and such. What a band of sissy boy pantywaists that spend so much time bantering about their positions of status. He who won't post his own name has got to be afraid of his own shadow, let alone pose such statements about anyone else.
I will say thank you for all the positive exposure and I am quite honored to be felt so highly of that the symposium rests on my mere mortal appearance. It is said any ink is good ink, since no one in the real world has ever heard of those beating their chest it really just sets myself and MARPPIO far above those that chatter and run their mouths without even a name or reputation to back it up. Video and knife sales are better than they have ever been, keep advertising for me guys!
I know Professor would be very proud of his children and of myself for doing our own work and not being swayed by the bickering of the little ones without balls. I honestly wonder how many of the keyboard Arnisadorians could close their eyes and visualize Professor Remy Presas blessing their efforts? I'm thinking most would run for cover, I've said it before if you don't have the balls to say it to a man's face, or sign your real name, don't type it on a forum. I would also believe that those who complain the loudest have actually accomplished the least, and will reap the karma repercussions of their own insecurity.
It was not an easy personal decision to make as far as attendance, it was though, an easy professional one. I hosted MARPPIO last year at the same time, exactly the same weekend, the weekend after the 4th of July. It was discussed at last years event to continue and make the event an annual one. That was quite some time prior to Dr. Barber organizing his symposium date. Long before Dr. Barber posted his plans I had sent a similar proposal to Datu Dieter for a Filipino gathering in Las Vegas. After all Las Vegas is a central location for conventions, Martial Art Organizations worldwide have been using Las Vegas with great success for a number of years. I even suggested the location to Dr. Barber and he didn't respond, that's fine he made his choice to make everything convenient for the people on the East Coast simple as that.
What exactly will it cost the majority of practitioners on the East Coast to attend, $300.00 and a couple hours to drive.
I inquired in an e-mail to people around the Western United States about their desire or interest to spend 3 or 4 days traveling and drop about $1000.00 or more to attend an event that has a questionable agenda at the very least. Nothing I have seen except the original posting and description of the event even has a professional presentation about it. If someone does not respond to the martialtalk.com group, they are dragged through the dirt for having a life of their own, oh yeah, and "doing they're own work." Most people responded to the e-mails that they would rather attend a seminar just like the MARPPIO seminar we held last year in July, for a fraction of the cost of the New York trip. Actually, last year we had a great deal of senior practitioners that outranked any and all the people scheduled for the upcoming New York event, and this year will be no different. The difference is we are getting together for the benefit of the art and the pure joy of training, not to prove that somebody can piss higher on the wall. In reality a great deal of people involved are just spinning their wheels and going nowhere, proving nothing but they're own weakness to accomplish nothing as practitioners or independent leaders. Pretty sad miserable group of winer's or is that weiners?
I'm really curious how many of the self-righteous East Coast loud mouths would drop $1000.00 or more to put up or shut up and visit the West Coast, probably none!
It is very easy to contact me and give me a verbal lashing for not attending the symposium. As a matter of fact I will personally pay 1/2 of your airfare if you would like to come here to Tacoma personally and put me in my place. I say 1/2 because if you are really motivated and as tough as you type, all the groupies in your little clan will pay your way just to hear of your dynamic victory!
Just give me a call at 253-564-2867 and arrange your travel plans, put up or shut up... But hey give me 10 days, I'm leaving for Maui, Hawaii for a seminar and to do my own work...

By the way, when you are standing around pissing on the wall, that's not rain falling on your head, you're really that low....

Datu
_________________
Kelly S. Worden


So, the answer there indicates that he will not be attending.

[Corey Minatani]

This was quoted from the WMAC forum from Datu Worden:

Yes Indeed,
I was forwarded the petty little statements from Martialslander.com,, how brave are those who post under internet names such as limpwood, scabpicker, rustyblade and such. What a band of sissy boy pantywaists that spend so much time bantering about their positions of status. He who won't post his own name has got to be afraid of his own shadow, let alone pose such statements about anyone else.
I will say thank you for all the positive exposure and I am quite honored to be felt so highly of that the symposium rests on my mere mortal appearance. It is said any ink is good ink, since no one in the real world has ever heard of those beating their chest it really just sets myself and MARPPIO far above those that chatter and run their mouths without even a name or reputation to back it up. Video and knife sales are better than they have ever been, keep advertising for me guys!
I know Professor would be very proud of his children and of myself for doing our own work and not being swayed by the bickering of the little ones without balls. I honestly wonder how many of the keyboard Arnisadorians could close their eyes and visualize Professor Remy Presas blessing their efforts? I'm thinking most would run for cover, I've said it before if you don't have the balls to say it to a man's face, or sign your real name, don't type it on a forum. I would also believe that those who complain the loudest have actually accomplished the least, and will reap the karma repercussions of their own insecurity.
It was not an easy personal decision to make as far as attendance, it was though, an easy professional one. I hosted MARPPIO last year at the same time, exactly the same weekend, the weekend after the 4th of July. It was discussed at last years event to continue and make the event an annual one. That was quite some time prior to Dr. Barber organizing his symposium date. Long before Dr. Barber posted his plans I had sent a similar proposal to Datu Dieter for a Filipino gathering in Las Vegas. After all Las Vegas is a central location for conventions, Martial Art Organizations worldwide have been using Las Vegas with great success for a number of years. I even suggested the location to Dr. Barber and he didn't respond, that's fine he made his choice to make everything convenient for the people on the East Coast simple as that.
What exactly will it cost the majority of practitioners on the East Coast to attend, $300.00 and a couple hours to drive.
I inquired in an e-mail to people around the Western United States about their desire or interest to spend 3 or 4 days traveling and drop about $1000.00 or more to attend an event that has a questionable agenda at the very least. Nothing I have seen except the original posting and description of the event even has a professional presentation about it. If someone does not respond to the martialtalk.com group, they are dragged through the dirt for having a life of their own, oh yeah, and "doing they're own work." Most people responded to the e-mails that they would rather attend a seminar just like the MARPPIO seminar we held last year in July, for a fraction of the cost of the New York trip. Actually, last year we had a great deal of senior practitioners that outranked any and all the people scheduled for the upcoming New York event, and this year will be no different. The difference is we are getting together for the benefit of the art and the pure joy of training, not to prove that somebody can piss higher on the wall. In reality a great deal of people involved are just spinning their wheels and going nowhere, proving nothing but they're own weakness to accomplish nothing as practitioners or independent leaders. Pretty sad miserable group of winer's or is that weiners?
I'm really curious how many of the self-righteous East Coast loud mouths would drop $1000.00 or more to put up or shut up and visit the West Coast, probably none!
It is very easy to contact me and give me a verbal lashing for not attending the symposium. As a matter of fact I will personally pay 1/2 of your airfare if you would like to come here to Tacoma personally and put me in my place. I say 1/2 because if you are really motivated and as tough as you type, all the groupies in your little clan will pay your way just to hear of your dynamic victory!
Just give me a call at 253-564-2867 and arrange your travel plans, put up or shut up... But hey give me 10 days, I'm leaving for Maui, Hawaii for a seminar and to do my own work...

By the way, when you are standing around pissing on the wall, that's not rain falling on your head, you're really that low....

Datu
_________________
Kelly S. Worden

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Datu Hartman:

You represent a senior leadership position in Modern Arnis, as a leader wouldn't it have been better to have personally discuss the whys with MARRPIO and Datu Worden rather than state an uninformed opinion?

This event in Tacoma had been pre-planned a year ago for this time slot, over 60 students from Canada to California had made pre-plans to return to Tacoma for the MARRPIO seminar at the same time slot. They have set aside a few days vacation time, made travel arrangements, we have pre-booked a hall that is large enough to accommodate that many students, prearranged for a caterer.

Are you suggesting since the trip cannot be made back east that the pre-planned seminar should be canceled and that everybody on the West coast should sacrifice and stay home and self flagellate?

Tim, I have met you and know you are very talented and a nice person, respectfully please review your thoughts regarding your last posting and try to understand the validity of this situation.

George Hoover

The problem is that BOTH Marppio and Worden have led people to believe that they will be attending Dr. Barber's event. This event has been listed for some time were the MARPPIO event is a recent listing on the site. If MARPPIO chose not to attend the event it would have been nice for them to state that. Kelly is out of town so he can't respond. What's the Presas' family's excuse?

[Bob Hubbard]

Looks like we both had the same idea Corey. heh. :)


Personally, I understand the idea of previous commitments, etc. I'm waiting on confirmation myself if I'm on the bill to do a web design seminar in Toronto that same weekend.

Its disappointing that he won't be attending as I was looking forward to the chance to meet him and the Presas family face to face. At this point, we wait for Dr.B to confirm with the Presas' if any members will be attending. Hopefully things will work out.

:asian:

[Pappy Geo]

Come on Datu Hartman since when do mature well respected leaders need an excuse? Are we students in kindergarten and need a doctors note?

I hope your pre-posturing and challenging statements don't indicate the symposium is doomed to be a circus filled with "show and tell" ego instead of DR Barber's intent of educational and fellowship opportunities. Don't forget from the students prospective of attending which is the training and the opportunity to meet the Senior instructors in Modern Arnis!

Why the chip on the shoulder attitude? When I met you were not like that at all, did that happen to be one of your good days?

As a semiretired CEO of a construction company here in the Northwest, executives from other companies were always treated with respect and given full VIP benefits whether we were on the same page in business philosophy or in disagreement.

The attitudes displayed on this topic in this forum dismays me to think that so many uniformed people can make such biassed statements with such venomous prejudices!

The saving grace has been a few folks have restated their thoughts into palatable and honorable statements and I appreciate that.

George Hoover

[Cruentus]

The problem is that BOTH Marppio and Worden have led people to believe that they will be attending Dr. Barber's event. This event has been listed for some time were the MARPPIO event is a recent listing on the site.

That's what I was thinking. I had thought that they were listed as instructors for the symposium, and then backed out. I didn't know, nor did many other people know that they had other obligations. That's what started this thread.

As for the Symposium being held in Buffalo instead of Vegas, as I understood it the symposium was being set up to be an annual (or even bi-annual) event, which would be held at a different location next time around. Even hosted by someone other then Dr. Barber. Perhaps the West Coast, or Vegas would be appropriate for the next one. I fully understand the reasoning behind MARRPIO or Datu Worden not attending, I just am disappointed by another missed opportunity to see them. I also understand people not attending due to cost, time constrains, or the desire to not enter a pissing match.

However, it is still unfortunate that we don't have Datu Worden or MARRPIO's, or the MOTT's (for that matter) full support, because for the symposium "idea" to work, it would be nice to have every leader in the system at least supporting the event. But since there are other events now scheduled the weekend of the symposium, we run into conflicts. What if next time around it is in Vegas, but East Coast people decide to instead schedule their own events over a Vegas Symposium because it is more profitable to them. See how this causes a problem? The symposium "idea" will have trouble getting off the ground under such circumstances.

As for the symposium turning into a "pissing contest," that is a possability, but I hope that it will be more productive then that. However, if I can make it, I'll have my raincoat ready. But remember this, a wise man once said: "You can be the master of your own universe if you never leave your backyard." I just hope that saying dosen't fit the bill for some of our leaders in the art.

As for spending $1000 for a trip to another land to train; hell yea, I would do it. I in fact plan to allocate more time and $$ to such activities perhaps for next year, or the following (depending on the success of my business). I wonder if I can get Kelly to pay for half my airfair then? :p

PAUL

P.S. In terms of the "martialIlander" crack, I just wanted to say that some of the most interesting discussions have been held in this forum. Not just for Modern Arnis, but for all martial arts in general. Sure, some interesting flame wars have been held here too, but that's what happends when you get a group together with differing views who are going to tell it like it is instead of kissing each others @$$ all day. I take the good with the bad. If I felt that another forum had more to offer, I'd be checking that one religiously instead of this one. But, that is just my opinion! :asian:

[dearnis.com]

There have been some comments posted that exceed the limits of 'friendly debate,' I think, but I wonder if that isn't a natural outgrowth of the 'put up or shut up' face being put on the symposium.
Paul sums up a lot of the problems, at least as variuos folks may see them. I dont see the name calling solving anything. Either those who have committed to attend can civilly work together, or Dr. B. is wasting his time and energy.
Chad

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
There have been some comments posted that exceed the limits of 'friendly debate,' I think, but I wonder if that isn't a natural outgrowth of the 'put up or shut up' face being put on the symposium.
Paul sums up a lot of the problems, at least as variuos folks may see them. I dont see the name calling solving anything. Either those who have committed to attend can civilly work together, or Dr. B. is wasting his time and energy.
Chad

Chad,

I think that the 2003 Symposium is a very good idea and the time to have it is now! Is the "put up or shut up" position of the Symposium, the reason for some unfriendely comments - no it is not. The Symposium was the outgrowth of Demetrio Presas' post on the "succession" matter and the constant carping about Jeff Delaney as "gm and designated successor". Plus there were other comments about the MoTTs, along with concerns/comments about the meaning and significance of the title. Then there is the issue of rank, who has it how they got it is it meaningful and accurate. The Symposium was designed and intended to stop the talking and allow us to see for ourselves who in fact has the skills to be a top flight Modern Arnis instructor and who might just be blowing smoke.

I am committed to seeing this thing through and Paul is correct, I have stated that I only want to do it ONCE! After 2003, anyone else who wants to do a similar program is more than welcome to do it AND it is very likely that I will attend and present since I have no plans to do so at this event.

This Symposium is going to be a success because the people already committed to presenting have a considerable amount to offer the attendees. Not all of these people are well known because some of them have not been involved with the late Professor Presas for a number of years. That does not mean that they are without considerable skills!

Too often, Modern Arnis people have funneled their vision down so that only the late Professor was truely visible. That is a major contributor to the problem of non- cooperation. You mentioned that you know and have worked with some of the presenters and you might not be in attendence at the the event. I respect that position, but I also believe that there is a possiblty that working with one or two of the people that you have not met before would be quite educational AND you be able to spend some time talking with them; but that is merely my opinion.

The Symposium will be a place for people to meet, talk, exchange, compare and contrast ideas, techniques and concepts. On and off the floor I expect that there will be surprises and moments of enlightenment. If the latter were not a very real possibilty, then hosting the Symposium would be a total waste of time. I expect to learn somethings at this event. I have worked with several of the presenters, but there are others whom I have know only by reputation and word of mouth.

I refuse to allow this development from Kelly and Marppio, damped my spirits regarding the potential good that can come out of the Symposium. I refuse to allow the fact that Demetrio Presas' comments were the cause that helped to set the wheels in motion and now there is a possibilty that he will not be at the event, detract from the significance of the Symposium in Buffalo.

Don't you think that I was expecting something of this nature to happen? The handwritting was 'all over the wall', if you read some of the comments back in March and April when I first stated that I was going to organize the Symposium. This cost and date excuse is old stuff being revived to justify non-attendence. Don't you think that I have had to discuss this stuff in private e-mails with several people as well as my public comments? The only thing that took my somewhat by surprise is who put forward the 'alternate place at the same time' into play, but I will deal with that topic in my next post about an hour or so from now since Kelly mentioned my name specificly in the e-mail forwaded to this forum.

To sum up - the ORIGINAL MODERN ARNIS SYMPOSIUM is still on track for July 11, 12 & 13 in Buffalo. It will occur first because the sun does rise in the east, doesn't it? There can only be one, first!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
There have been some comments posted that exceed the limits of 'friendly debate,' I think, but I wonder if that isn't a natural outgrowth of the 'put up or shut up' face being put on the symposium.
Paul sums up a lot of the problems, at least as variuos folks may see them. I dont see the name calling solving anything. Either those who have committed to attend can civilly work together, or Dr. B. is wasting his time and energy.
Chad

Chad,
I agree. I also am committed to the positive nature of this Symposium.



Originally posted by DoctorB -
Chad,

The Symposium was designed and intended to stop the talking and allow us to see for ourselves who in fact has the skills to be a top flight Modern Arnis instructor and who might just be blowing smoke.

This Symposium is going to be a success because the people already committed to presenting have a considerable amount to offer the attendees.

The Symposium will be a place for people to meet, talk, exchange, compare and contrast ideas, techniques and concepts. On and off the floor I expect that there will be surprises and moments of enlightenment. If the latter were not a very real possibilty, then hosting the Symposium would be a total waste of time. I expect to learn somethings at this event. I have worked with several of the presenters, but there are others whom I have know only by reputation and word of mouth.


To sum up - the ORIGINAL MODERN ARNIS SYMPOSIUM is still on track for July 11, 12 & 13 in Buffalo. It will occur first because the sun does rise in the east, doesn't it? There can only be one, first!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Folks,
I agree with the sections of the quote I kept above. This could be an oppertunity for a pissing match of epic proportions OR it could be as stated above and an incredibly positive experience for students and instructors alike. As to civilly working together, let me quote the Godfather script: Don Corleone - "I want it to be known that I will not be the one who will break the peace we have made here today." I am committing to working together with all the other instructors and students at the event. As a humorous aside, I have no son (Michael Corleone) to break it either.

All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
From the WMAC forum. Posted here for convenience of our members who do not surf there.

So, the answer there indicates that he will not be attending.


Kelly S. Worden
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 396
Location: Tacoma, Wa. U.S.A.

>It was not an easy personal decision to make as far as >attendance, it was though, an easy professional one. I hosted >MARPPIO last year at the same time, exactly the same >weekend, the weekend after the 4th of July. It was discussed at >last years event to continue and make the event an annual one.

Let me cut staight to the chase on this matter. The decision not to attend is a personal one and I have nothing to say about matters totally beyond my control.

Second point, in our series of e-mails going back to the point at which I first posted the intent to host the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium AND even after the date for the event was publicly announced on MartialTalk, WMAC Forum, Eskrima Resource Digest and several other forums, neither you, Kelly Worden nor any member of Marppio contacted me to advise me that there was a conflict with a previously planned event, therefore, there is an 'appearence of deception', that can and should have been expected. Personally, I wish you well at your event.

>That was quite some time prior to Dr. Barber organizing his >symposium date. Long before Dr. Barber posted his plans I had >sent a similar proposal to Datu Dieter for a Filipino gathering in >Las Vegas.

Unfortunately, I am unable to read private communications not sent to me and when public references are made to such communications without some accompanying details, its' true and full meaning is not apparent to every reader of the public communication. So you made a suggestion before I put a plan into operation, but it is the plan put into operation, that usually receives the most attention.

>After all Las Vegas is a central location for conventions, Martial >Art Organizations worldwide have been using Las Vegas with >great success for a number of years. I even suggested the >location to Dr. Barber and he didn't respond, that's fine he made >his choice to make everything convenient for the people on the >East Coast simple as that.

Now, Kelly, let's get this one straight - yes you did mention holding the Symposium in Las Vegas, but that came AFTER I had already set the event for Buffalo and announced the location.

Additionally, I DID ANSWER YOU via e-mail and I noted in that message that I did not have a contact person in Las Vegas, who could handle all of the local details that would come up for an event, so for me, it was not a good choice.

As for LV being "a central location for conventions", I would beg to differ with that opinion. It is not "central" for me, it is a 3-5 hour flight depending on connections and it is not cheap - remember your point about costs is a double edged sword! From Miami, the flight is 4-6 hours, from Maine the flight is 6-8 hours!
That does not constitute "central" to me when the flight from Washinton State is most likely 2-3 hours.

>What exactly will it cost the majority of practitioners on the East >Coast to attend, $300.00 and a couple hours to drive.

Apparently you are not completely familiar with your USA geography - there are points on the East Coast that will require as much as 24 hours driving time to reach Buffalo! Try locating a Road Atlas and check out the milage from Miami, FL Tampa, FL Atlanta, GA, Lexington, KY, Columbus, OH, Chicago, IL, Boston, MA, Providence, RI, Hartford, CT, Philadelphia, PA, Wilmington, DE, NYC or any points on Long Island. None of these cities are within a 4 hours drive of Buffalo.

I deliberately put a two month window on the seminar fee structure because I WANT people to make their deposits during the first two months next year - I want them to have the benefit of the lowest costs that I can give them and still cover the expenses of the Symposium Presenters. If I were hosting an event with one to three instructors, the fee structure would be different - it would be lower!

>I inquired in an e-mail to people around the Western United >States about their desire or interest to spend 3 or 4 days >traveling and drop about $1000.00 or more to attend an event >that has a questionable agenda at the very least. Nothing I >have seen except the original posting and description of the >event even has a professional presentation about it.

You can back off the histrionics, Kelly. A plane flight though expensive does not require 3 or 4 days of travel to get to the East Coast. I deal with research questions and surveys for a living, I know that how one phrases a question can strongly influence how the question is answered. If people do not want to come east for WHATEVER REASON, that is their decision. I work a 9-5 job like most other people in America, so the idea of cost vs. benefit is real for me as well. I understand why an event closer to home might be prefereable to one 1500 miles away.

>If someone does not respond to the martialtalk.com group, they >are dragged through the dirt for having a life of their own, oh >yeah, and "doing they're own work."

Now you are confusing two different issues. Your scheduling the July 11 & 12 event has nothing to do with how people do or do not conduct themselves on MartialTalk.com. It is neither my position or intention to justify anything posted on the forum. I only speak and post for myself. I do my own work, I have 'made the art for myself' just as you have done in your part of the world
and I am quite proud of my students because they have done the same thing. No trash talking, just good solid work!

>Most people responded to the e-mails that they would rather >attend a seminar just like the MARPPIO seminar we held last >year in July, for a fraction of the cost of the New York trip.

And I will say it again, good luck and good training!

>Actually, last year we had a great deal of senior practitioners >that outranked any and all the people scheduled for the >upcoming New York event, and this year will be no different.

Gee, Kelly, I did not know that the Modern Arnis Symposium was:

1. a New York event
2. that it was about what rank someone might hold.

As I seem to remember the original objective, the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium is intended to help people to determine for themselves, who has the highest level of skills within the art of Modern Arnis regardless of title and/or rank!

The fact that you will have people at your event who "outrank" every one who will be at the ORIGINAL MODERN ARNIS SYMPOSIUM, is a benefit and selling point for you - use it well! We are offering two very different programs. One is not better than the other - just different and from you perspective quite local in scope.

>The difference is we are getting together for the benefit of the >art and the pure joy of training, not to prove that somebody can >piss higher on the wall.

Say whatever you want, Kelly, but the bottom line is that I have not gone out of my way to insult and belittle others on this or any other forum. Since you have a legitimate reason for not coming to the 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, please enjoy your event in Tacoma.

Regardless of the number of instructors who attend the 2003 Symposium that I am hosting, the event will be held, because some people have committed to being there. In spite of how many or few people actually attend the 2003 Modern Arnis
Symposium, it will be held as scheduled! The goal has not changed - a demonstarted ability to teach and present an in-depth program of Modern Arnis Instruction - with the attendees having the last word as to who they believed was most to least skilled in the art. Rank and titles will be left at the door, skill will be the final determinor of "rank".

As for what I will say about those who do not attend the 2003 Symposium.... the operative word is "Nothing!"

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
What is this an east coast Vs west coast spitting contest again?

No, I don't think it's east vs. west. I feel that it is Kelly and his "Wordonites" trying to stir up **** and make themselves the center of attention. And still no word from the Presas family.

[Pappy Geo]

Tim,

I have been diplomatic, now I am telling you that is BS! That kind of crap should be beyond you. You just went down several notches in my book. Hopefully in the future you will be able to save face. On the West coast we have an unwritten code of honor, obviously you grew up in a different part of the USA even though we are all Americans here. Why the insults? Why are you trying to alienate the folks out here, What is your agenda?

You still haven't addressed any of the issues that I put forward to you, instead you utter one sentence sarcastic slams, are we having fun yet?

I have conversed with the Presas family and they will not dignify your witty scarsasm by responding, they are well beyond grade school for christ sake Remy jr has a PHD and is well respected in the Bay Area.

Have you realized how you are now appearing to the students that are reading this forum?

I will accept an honorable response, by private email if you prefer


A Wordenite and MARRPIOITE,

George Hoover
couleeone@aol.com

[Rich Parsons]

Pappy Geo et al,

I take exception to the insults the Datu Kelly Worden has thrown my way. As a member of this site, I feel like I have been attacked by him numerous times.

Yet, I want to meet him in person to see for real life what he is all about.

Worden has posted on his site things that you and others have posted here. I did not like the tone of the replies on the Worden Site. If Worden or a Worden local person replied it was all good although if it was an outside person there were attacks or issues with what they had to say. That is why I have ignored that site. I did not think I could be a productive member.

Now some of the things that Worden and his "Drones" have said about this site and its' members has made me really wonder about all of you?

Datu Worden has stated that everyone should not believe what GM Remy Presas has told them about being the best or having something special, and yet we are to believe this only about Datu Kelly Worden. These things make me wonder about Datu Kelly Worden and the rest of the people in his organization.

Now, I have never met Datu Kelly Worden and still would like to reserve my opinion until I can meet with him. Yet, when it is posted here and elsewhere (* I believe *) that he has made an agreement to be at the seminar / symposium. Yet he has pulled out. I understand a previous commitment, yet he should have not made the statement that he would attend if he had this previous commitment. This make me wonder about Datu Kelly Worden again, yet I still hold my opinion until I can meet him.

Datu Kelly Worden threw some insults by not using the proper names of people here on MartialTalk. Yet, you get upset when someone returns the volley using the same tactics.

As Datu Kelly Worden is in Hawaii I will wait until he is back and then maybe give him call to just chat and see what the man is all about. Yet I would like to still meet him in person and see him.

Just my humble opinion about name calling and insults and attitudes. I think you have the right to say you are upset. I agree that the name calling does not add anything positive to this discussion.

Thank you for you views

Rich
:asian:

[dearnis.com]

On the east-west split...
Just wanted to make sure that those in the WMAC were clear that while the symposium is being held in the Buffalo area it is not a WMAA event; Dr. Barber is a 3rd party not involved with either group who stepped up and offered to do something for the Modern Arnis community at large.
The population base here is primarily, in no order, WMAC, WMAA, and various independants with a few from IMAF-Shea (is that inc. or no inc.?), so obvioulsy we are a self selecting group. Still, this thread has taken a real slide towards WMAC vs. WMAA when that isn't really the issue.
There is a lot of anger being thrown over what is apparently a pretty simple mis-understanding or double booking.
For Pappy Geo and others: admirable defense of your teachers, but may I politely suggest you look a bit deeper. It sounds like a lot of people are showing their disappointment that they won't be able to see him demo at this event.
Just some 1st cup of coffee thoughts.
Chad

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
On the east-west split...
Just wanted to make sure that those in the WMAC were clear that while the symposium is being held in the Buffalo area it is not a WMAA event; Dr. Barber is a 3rd party not involved with either group who stepped up and offered to do something for the Modern Arnis community at large.
The population base here is primarily, in no order, WMAC, WMAA, and various independants with a few from IMAF-Shea (is that inc. or no inc.?), so obvioulsy we are a self selecting group. Still, this thread has taken a real slide towards WMAC vs. WMAA when that isn't really the issue.
There is a lot of anger being thrown over what is apparently a pretty simple mis-understanding or double booking.
For Pappy Geo and others: admirable defense of your teachers, but may I politely suggest you look a bit deeper. It sounds like a lot of people are showing their disappointment that they won't be able to see him demo at this event.
Just some 1st cup of coffee thoughts.
Chad

Very nicely stated, Chad. My suggestion to everyone is let this thread die! There is no productive outcome possibilty that I can see and the seminar in Tacoma is going to occur regardless of what gets said here or on the WMAC Forum.

For my part, the discussion is over. I will make some adjustments to the 2003 Symposium, which I will announce within the next week or so. I am going to take the advice that I got from both Punong Guro Douglas Pierre, last night in a 2 hour phone disscussion and Sifu Countee Randles, in an hour discussion this morning. Since both men are my seniors in the martial arts as well as good friends, who have stayed out of the flow of e-mails,
their objectivity is a great gift to receive at this point in time.

So, I am done with this thread and my advise to others is to drop it as well, because if someone believes that there is an east coast vs. west coast conflict, how do you prove a negative and get them to change their mind?

Good luck to those who attend the Tacoma seminar.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Pappy Geo]

Doctor Barber,

Thank you and I agree, I have said all I can say and it starting to get personal. Maybe Bob will close the thread. Good luck to everybody at the symposium and happy holidays.

Peace and with respect.

George Hoover

[dearnis.com]

Agreed that it is time to move on.

Dr. B.- Doug is a good choice for advice; great guy as well as a skilled player.

Chad

[Cthulhu]

You know, at one time I would have been very interested in attending a Worden event. After those remarks he made on the WMAC board, he's shown his true colors. Exclusively because of Worden, I now have no desire to attend any Modern Arnis event.

Congratulations for turning someone away from the art.

Cthulhu

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I now have no desire to attend any Modern Arnis event.

Congratulations for turning someone away from the art.

Cthulhu

Cthulhu,

I can understand, from an outsider's view, that all this bickering is a real load of horsesh*t and isn't worth the time to investigate. Don't give up on the family yet. We Modern Arnis players are, indeed, a passionate lot and the words get flying hot and heavy at times. I would personally recommend (if you live on the East Coast) to attend either the 2003 WMAA Summer Camp or the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium for an introduction to the art. I was at last year's WMAA camp and the spirit was positive. The Symposium shoud be very interesting because of the number of different teachers who grew up under the same Grand Master.

All I can say is trust me on this one. At both camps I am gong to make a concerted effort to back up what I claim regarding the good spirits and positive natures of each.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[jaybacca72]

i just would like to say from an outsiders/insiders point of view that i think that the eastcoast and westcoast events will be a success i will assume. to renegade do not play thier childish games,if someone doesn't show with no public notice to possible attendees then all the more time with the others. it will definitely show the person's character ,and tim you are to good a guy to waste time on this crap. jerome i have met you and i wish you all the luck on your event and i will pass the word on here in CANADA.
later
Jason Arnold :p

[dearnis.com]

Hey Dan.....

What is the status of the rumored seminar out west featuring you, Datu Worden, and (I think) Prof. Trigg??

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Hey Dan.....

What is the status of the rumored seminar out west featuring you, Datu Worden, and (I think) Prof. Trigg??

Chad,
Thus far it is in the proposal stage. The last post on the WMAC site is as far as it has gotten. I think I will get some sort of phone call or notification after the holiday season is over, details sorted out and then I can post more. I've known Prof. Trigg since before he was a Professor and he's known me since before "Super Dan" and this is really talking time. 30 years or so, at least. He's a great guy.

It could be a very interesting event as Kelly's and my viewpoints differ so greatly, we could cover thw same amterial from totally different perspectives resulting in a great time for the students at the event.

So, keep your eyes open and we'll see what comes of it.

Yours,
Dan

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by jaybacca72
i just would like to say from an outsiders/insiders point of view that i think that the eastcoast and westcoast events will be a success i will assume. to renegade do not play thier childish games,if someone doesn't show with no public notice to possible attendees then all the more time with the others. it will definitely show the person's character ,and tim you are to good a guy to waste time on this crap. jerome i have met you and i wish you all the luck on your event and i will pass the word on here in CANADA.
later
Jason Arnold :p

Thank you for your advise and good counsel, Jason.

Jerome barber, Ed.D.