Training in Multiple MA?

[tsd]

I have run into a situation where a student's Judo teacher and another's Aikdo teacher did not want them to participate in a school program that was based in Tang Soo Do. Not an intensive program and the students were not paying for the sessions.

I am wondering what the Martial Arts Talk community thinks about students training in more then one style? Does your discipline forbid this? or encourage this? Is it an issue of rank or experience? Is it ok with permission? OK for Black Belts but not color belts?

[Sukerkin]

I'm guessing here but most sensei would rather a student concentrate on getting the basics of one art right before 'branching out' to others.

That's an attitude I have some sympathy with but I can see that younger, more impatient, students might chaff at it somewhat.

[stickarts]

I encourage my students to expand their horizons as long as they don't spead themselves too thin and take on more than they are prepared for.
For example, some students struggle with just one art and I would not encourage them to take on additional arts yet, however other students that already have the base in one art, learn quickly, and can handle another art, I encourage to expand their knowledge into other areas.
After I developed my base in Kenpo I went on to learn arnis, and then weapons.
I have a good memory and trained enough that it worked well for me learning multiple arts.
I look at each student and take it on a case by case basis.
Ultimately it is their decision. I just give them my honest opinion based on their level and what I see.

[tshadowchaser]

I can understand a teacher not wanting a student to go into an art the complete opposite of what they are teaching until that student reaches a level of understanding of their first art. Many instructors do not want students studying anything but their art while other encourage students to explore other arts once they reach Black Belt

[Xue Sheng]

Let me see.

I train Yang taiji, Chen Taiji, Xingyiquan and Sanda.

The only teacher that had a problem with it was my Sanda Sifu and that as more to do with he does not understand how I can train them all and do any Justice. He told me to to give up one, Sanda or XIngyi.

And he does not know about Chen style

My Yang Sifu knows about Xingyi and Chen but not Sanda

My Xingyi sifu did not really care how many styles I trained, just as long as I trained Xingyi hard...very hard.

[MBuzzy]

My Sa Bom Nim doesn't care if you train in other arts. But in my observation, you need at least a solid basis in one before you start trying to do another at the same time.

[IWishToLearn]

Prior to my back injury, I trained simultaneously in Yasashii Do, Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do, T'ai Chi, and Jujitsu. I found almost in every situation that something from another style enabled me to learn the one I was working on more efficiently. However, in order to progress in the art I was working on, sometimes I did find it difficult to perform Art A without having any noticible influences in the way I move from B, C, D, or E. That's the hardest part of studying multiple systems - Style A should look like Style A. B like B, etc.

The dichotomy in my experience is that it seems to be easier to pick up concepts and principles in one system with experience in another, but to perfect style A and have it looks like style A takes longer when studying multiple systems.

[ArmorOfGod]

I would actually encourage it, depending on who was holding it and under what pretenses it was being held under.
In our area, there is a certain teacher who gives free lessons to the schools, but uses it as a chance to get more students, and not just to enrich and educate. If it were held by him, I know him and I know that he has dollar signs in his eyes and not concerns of teaching the students for their benefit. That is the case where I would discourage (but not actually forbid) my student to participate.
Now, I can name several other local teachers, myself being one of them, who have given classes at schools, daycares, or churches without recruiting new students being the ulterior motive. I would encourage my students to attend that and absorb whatever they can.

AoG

[MJS]

I have run into a situation where a student's Judo teacher and another's Aikdo teacher did not want them to participate in a school program that was based in Tang Soo Do. Not an intensive program and the students were not paying for the sessions.

I am wondering what the Martial Arts Talk community thinks about students training in more then one style? Does your discipline forbid this? or encourage this? Is it an issue of rank or experience? Is it ok with permission? OK for Black Belts but not color belts?

I train in more than one art. I do feel that the person doing this should have some time in a base art first. I didn't start cross training until I was a Brown Belt. My instructors have always been involved in other arts themselves, so they never had an issue with it. :) In any case, I personally feel that what you do outside of the school if your business. I pay my dues, I don't speak ill of the school, etc., so yes, you could say that I'm loyal to my school/instructor, however, I don't feel its right that my instructor tells me what I can/can't train in.

Is it possible to learn things if you train in mult. arts? Absolutely!! I never have and never will be a rank chaser. I'm not in it for the belts, I'm in it for the experience and the joy and love of training! If I can only make one class in the second art, who cares? Fact is, I'm still learning. So it takes 5 months more to get a belt. So what? Like I said, I'm not in it for the belt. :)

Mike

[terryl965]

I think training in multiple art is up to each individual and what they would like to echieve while they are studing. I also encourage my students to cross train.

[Mariachi Joe]

Over at USSD we are strongly adviced not to cross train. I personally want to cross train in either Judo of BJJ so that I'll have a stronger groundfighting ability.

[searcher]

I encourage my students to expand their knowledge by seeking out other instruction. I, myself, train in multiple styles and would not have it any other way. I do want them to have a good base before they venture out to far. I feel that we have become closed minded and bound by the formation of styles. I want to go back to the days of old when you learned anything you can from everyone you can. I have classes that are pure of one style, but I try to share what I have learned with all of them from other styles.

In most cases, I have students give me a higher level of loyalty form this whole process. Many come to us for instruction without the knowledge fo their "primary" instructor. I prefer that they are open with their instructor and I want to asure the other instructor that I am not interested in taking their student form them. But I will also let them know that if the student wishes I will become their primary instructor, if they wish it.

[Blindside]

I can't see how training in totally dissimilar arts is much of an issue. Can you learn English and Math at the same time? I'd have more concerns if someone was training arts that dealt with similar ranges, say Muay Thai and TKD at the same time. Sort of like trying to learn Spanish and Portugese at the same time, you'll probably come out garbled. You are far less likely to mistake a "hola" for a "konichiwa" I've cross-trained throughout my kenpo career and I can't say that it has hurt my kenpo.

To be honest, alot of instructors view a student taking another martial art as a challenge to their own instruction or the possibility that they will lose that student.

Lamont

[Ella]

I agree with blindside...

I take kenpo and have recently started judo...

the kenpo people don't know about the judo but the judo people know about the kenpo...

I think maybe some schools don't like it because they might be mcdojo's, or other schools don't like it because they think students are going to get confused.

[James_of_a_thousand_naps]

My martial arts training has only been in cross training. Where i learn we train in a lesson both jun fun jeet kune do and inosanto/lacoste kali also depending on the grade muay thai and penjak silat. Jun fan jkd and kali are so alike that training both has made in fact made it easier than if i was training one at a time.

Since it is a non classical school there is a non classical way of thinking and it is encouraged to cross train as opposed to a more classical school that would demand a loyalty to a style or person. I believe that loyalty should be to ones self to not limit or cheat ones self out of the benefits other systems may hold.

This is however keeping to the rule that a good base in an area has to be achieved before taking on new material.

[qi-tah]

My martial arts training has only been in cross training. Where i learn we train in a lesson both jun fun jeet kune do and inosanto/lacoste kali also depending on the grade muay thai and penjak silat. Jun fan jkd and kali are so alike that training both has made in fact made it easier than if i was training one at a time.


I've had much the same experience with the CMA schools i've studied at. The first mixed up Zi ran men, muay thai and ba gua, the second ba gua and liu he and at my current school we do a base of ba gua with xing yi, san shou, long fist and sun style taiji fitting around that. I find that works really well for me - i'm starting (i think!) to gain a deeper understanding of how the same principles of internal power are expressed in different styles. On the brief occasions i've dabbled in other styles like Aikido, i've also found the same thing... it's like my first teacher said, "All we have is our body and that's pretty much the same no matter what style you practice". :asian:

Having said that, i'd never be taking classes in one system from two schools simultaneously... that would be too weird. (Yes i have known ppl who have done that!)

[James_of_a_thousand_naps]

I agree, two schools would be a bit strenuous on the time factor and the bank account.. and i do count myself lucky to have found a place that trains in more than one ma, having an instructor to show you the concept behind each and how they can fit together is a great help.

[jks9199]

Over at USSD we are strongly adviced not to cross train. I personally want to cross train in either Judo of BJJ so that I'll have a stronger groundfighting ability.
I'm personally suspicious of a teacher or school that absolutely prohibits or too strongly discourages occasional training in different approaches or work with different teachers. I know that my style has, somewhere within it, answers for most combat questions. I'm not saying the best answers -- but answers are there. But that doesn't mean that other systems don't have equally valid answers. And my teacher always encouraged us to take opportunities to train with other instructors -- including his own teacher!

I just think that some of the folks that are so discouraging of outside experiences are at best kind of insecure about their own instruction -- and at worst, some sort of wanna-be cult leader.

At the same time -- I think that trying to cross train extensively is likely to hinder your training. Not guaranteed -- but likely. The extent of hinderance will decrease as your experience increases.

[jks9199]

I've had much the same experience with the CMA schools i've studied at. The first mixed up Zi ran men, muay thai and ba gua, the second ba gua and liu he and at my current school we do a base of ba gua with xing yi, san shou, long fist and sun style taiji fitting around that. I find that works really well for me - i'm starting (i think!) to gain a deeper understanding of how the same principles of internal power are expressed in different styles. On the brief occasions i've dabbled in other styles like Aikido, i've also found the same thing... it's like my first teacher said, "All we have is our body and that's pretty much the same no matter what style you practice". :asian:

Having said that, i'd never be taking classes in one system from two schools simultaneously... that would be too weird. (Yes i have known ppl who have done that!)
I think there's a difference in a SCHOOL that intentionally and consciously cross-trains various styles and a student who tries to balance TKD Monday with BBT Tuesday and Choy Li Fut Thursday. When the school (hopefully, with instructors with proper training in each art, not weekend certificates!) puts the syllabus or program together -- they're doing it with a plan or structure for it. A student running independently does their own thing, there's no guarantee that what they put together will actually fit coherently.

[kidswarrior]

The dichotomy in my experience is that it seems to be easier to pick up concepts and principles in one system with experience in another, but to perfect style A and have it looks like style A takes longer when studying multiple systems.

While I've found wisdom and good advice in all the posts here, this one seems to nail it. If you want to preserve your training in each art so it looks the same as you learned it (which your instructor in that art will certainly expect), I recommend sticking with just one ('style A') for a couple of years, at least. Then one can add a second and not compromise the first. I actually did this, and while I can do the 'pure' form of style A or style B, can also merge them and the synergistic effect (for me, anyway fitting my body type/fighting outlook) makes for a better art than either 'pure' form.

[qi-tah]

I think there's a difference in a SCHOOL that intentionally and consciously cross-trains various styles and a student who tries to balance TKD Monday with BBT Tuesday and Choy Li Fut Thursday. When the school (hopefully, with instructors with proper training in each art, not weekend certificates!) puts the syllabus or program together -- they're doing it with a plan or structure for it. A student running independently does their own thing, there's no guarantee that what they put together will actually fit coherently.

Yes, i totally agree, but what i think you get from a school/class that has more than one art in it's syllabus is more than the practical - it's a sense of possibility, of openess and curiosity about different ways/systems of moving and fighting. At least that's been my experience. And that approach might actually prevent you from cross-training outside the school for a while ('cause you have enough on yr plate at the one school), giving you the time to improve to the point where a bit of experimentation will work with you rather than against you. Possibly...?

[Callandor]

I am wondering what the Martial Arts Talk community thinks about students training in more then one style? Does your discipline forbid this? or encourage this? Is it an issue of rank or experience? Is it ok with permission? OK for Black Belts but not color belts?
The problem, I think, with practicing more than one art (and perhaps the reason some teachers forbid it) is when the arts you practice are somewhat similar with slight differences. It might get you confused. For example, if you practice Soo Bahk Do (or Tang Soo Do) and karate, you might end up doing karate's back stance in Soo Bahk Do and vice-versa (they have slightly different forms and weight distributions). Their execution of the roundhouse kick also differs a bit. This is also true even within the different ryus of karate - Goju Ryu has a different feel and rhythm from Shotokan. If the arts are completely different, however, (like Judo or Aikido and Taekwondo) I personally don't think that there is a problem.

[Adept]

I am wondering what the Martial Arts Talk community thinks about students training in more then one style? Does your discipline forbid this? or encourage this? Is it an issue of rank or experience? Is it ok with permission? OK for Black Belts but not color belts?

As I always say:

Think of the martial arts as a library.

Think of the various styles, as the sections within the library.

To get a well rounded knowledge base, you need to read books from several sections. If you want to specialise, you need to study one (maybe two) sections to the exclusion of all else.

Many sections will contain over-laps (mathematics and physics, for example) and many will be completely different. The key is to read the books you want to, regardless of what section they come from. To build your own home library exactly the way you want it.

Now obviously the analogy isn't perfect. Beating people up is a fairly limited skill set, and a few basic techniques coupled with the understanding to perform multiple applications will get you further in a scrap, than a few random specific pieces of information are in a quiz.

To answer your question, everyone should learn from as many arts as they want.

What they have to decide for themselves is how many techniques they want to learn from each art (all of them?) and which strategy they want to use (one or the other, or form their own?).

[tsd]

As I always say:

Think of the martial arts as a library.


Good Analogy

[Em MacIntosh]

Adept always brings in the heavyweight JKD wisdom. Gotta agree with that. I think the most important thing is that you find something that works for you. Usually the more fluid an art is, the better you can fit into it. It is most important to find out what MA have to offer and choose the right school/instructor etc. from the beginning. To build the right regime to help you along the right path is the key to being proficient. Dedication comes easier when you are being true to yourself and not primarily to the art. The psychology of having no doubts that what you're doing is the best option for you is like full throttle, no brakes. A person can go so far so fast once they find the right groove. The point is, seldom does one art have everything or even most of what we're looking for. Crosstraining can be a very good thing. You take on too much of anything and it will be detrimental.