Hook Kicks

[Em MacIntosh]

Yes or no? Heel or sole? High or low? Self defense? Competition? Sparring? How about the more powerful swing kick? I'm a big fan. Especially with heavy boots. I like the sole, for a small sacrifice in power the extra range and surface area is worth the trade. You?

[Brandon Fisher]

Hook Kicks to the mid section or legs in reality only if you can make it work. Not my first choice at all. Sparring you can make them work, but I use the ball / Sole of my foot depending on the damage I want to do.

[Em MacIntosh]

I guess in sparring using the ball of the foot could minimize damage but still get the point across. I like to keep all my kicks on the street at hip or lower, almost always at the knee and shin. I usually prefer a shin-roundhouse to the legs thana hook kick for self defense but in sparring, the speed and deception of the hook kick to the head is great. I like all the striking surfaces, espeacially the heel to the thigh charley-horse.

[ArmorOfGod]

I use them in sparring often, but they have no place in self-defense. On the street, all kicks go to the belt and lower. Anything higher and you are breaking the "closest weapon to closest target" rule.
Hook kicking someone to the face is a waste of time. A kick to the shin or knee would take a fraction of the time.
Also, kicking someone in the face (on the street) is the equivilant of crouching down and punching the top of their foot.

AoG

[searcher]

Yes or no? Heel or sole? High or low? Self defense? Competition? Sparring? How about the more powerful swing kick? I'm a big fan. Especially with heavy boots. I like the sole, for a small sacrifice in power the extra range and surface area is worth the trade. You?


Yes.

Heel if I intend to do serious damage, sole if I wish to reduce damage.

I use them to the head only, but I train them a ton.

I never use the in a self-defense situation it is to risky on several fronts.

Competition I use them often.

I use them with sparring, but with the highest level of control.


I also never do them with boots on. They reduce the control and they increase the risk of personal injury. I will not use them on the street from the no kick to the head policy I have and the fact that this is the most scary kick I have ever used. The risk of doing serious irreparable damage is just to high. One slip to the temple and it can easily end their life.

[Em MacIntosh]

Can't argue with either of you except that I find boots give me extra momentum and stability and actually make my kicks more controlled and faster. To each his own. I espeacially agree with the kick to the head=punch to foot. One of my philosophies. However, never give up an oppertunity that presents itself.

[Tez3]

Can't argue with either of you except that I find boots give me extra momentum and stability and actually make my kicks more controlled and faster. To each his own. I espeacially agree with the kick to the head=punch to foot. One of my philosophies. However, never give up an oppertunity that presents itself.


Curiosity makes me ask this....do you fight in the street alot? Do you live in a rough area or do you just pop along to the rough areas for a fight? Not being funny, I have a friend to whom fighting is a stress relieving technique. He always feels better after a fight usually in a car park at the back of a pub.

[Em MacIntosh]

I haven't been in a scrap for 5 months. The last one was the last straw and I moved. I find fighting quite stressful actually. If you'd like to know I can tell you my story. For now let's just say I've been in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong freinds. The rest is sparring with freinds and bagwork (and karate classes,of course). Karate is more of a stress relieving activity for me. Now, out of curiosity, why do you ask?

[Tez3]

I haven't been in a scrap for 5 months. The last one was the last straw and I moved. I find fighting quite stressful actually. If you'd like to know I can tell you my story. For now let's just say I've been in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong freinds. The rest is sparring with freinds and bagwork (and karate classes,of course). Karate is more of a stress relieving activity for me. Now, out of curiosity, why do you ask?

I'm probably what you would call 'nicely brought up' having a sheltered upbringing lol, I went into the TMA world which was still 'genteel', the sparring and comps were point sparring and no one fought for real anywhere. Then my current instructor arrived where I work and I joined his club ( also where I work) and I was introduced to MMA (which I love) also a whole different world! Mick my instructor has fought in all sorts of places, as do most of the MMA fighters and promoters I've met. He teaches 'real' self defence which he knows works because he's used it.
I 've met all sorts of different people, some who've been in prison, some are doormen, there's gangsters etc. these are people to whom fighting is a real thing and it's quite fascinating!
There is also the conflict between the traditional martial arts which I love and the 'real' world of fights. I know that a lot of the traditional stuff done as it would be in the Dojo simply doesn't cut it outside.
The other thing that amazes me is the sheer 'normalness' and casualness of fighting to some people!
anyway i've taken this well off topic for long enough!

[Em MacIntosh]

I'll tell ya more later.
As for hook kicks, what's your opinion?

[tshadowchaser]

Heel if I want to do a lot of damage, Sole for less damage and a little more control.
I throw them all over the place when sparring but prefer midsection or lower (my legs are not what they where at one time)
As for the street I have never used it in the street, prefering a front kick to the groin, but I quess I might if I knew it would land and hurt. I also do like turning my back in the street unless throwing someone.

[Ella]

I use them in sparring often, but they have no place in self-defense. On the street, all kicks go to the belt and lower. Anything higher and you are breaking the "closest weapon to closest target" rule.


Why couldn't you hook kick someone below the belt?

Say, behind the knee, to make them fall if you don't want to do a lot of damage? Or to the front of the knee if you do? It would really depend on how your facing them.

It would not be my first choice, but I don't think I would go so far as to say it has "no place in self-defense".

[Tez3]

I use hook kicks in trad sparring, I haven't managed to use it when MMA sparring. All my kicks are low kicks! I can't get them above the waist! Like a roundhouse/turning kick it's good on the thigh, Thai style.

[Hand Sword]

Yes or no? Heel or sole? High or low? Self defense? Competition? Sparring? How about the more powerful swing kick? I'm a big fan. Especially with heavy boots. I like the sole, for a small sacrifice in power the extra range and surface area is worth the trade. You?

Going by the majority definition of them (JKD uses the term to describe round house kicks, from my experience) I say No! I never liked them. I hated to practice them. I would never use them.

[Tez3]

Erm, I'm thinking here that maybe what you think of as a hook kick may not be what I think of as a hook kick? The way I was taught it it is a heel strike and very difficult to so using the heel. I realise i may sound totally ignorant here lol!
The way I was taught to do a hook kick is, off left stance for example, to bring back ie right leg up to do a roundhouse kick (maewashi geri) to your opponents left side (to leg if you are me, head if you aren't!) but bring your knee across more and strike with the heel to your opponents right side instead. Hope that makes sense! What's a swing kick btw or I should say what would I know it as?

[Chizikunbo]

I would concur with most here, in saying that they have no place in reality...funny I should say that being a Tang Soo Do guy, but this kick is not easy to pull off effectively in a controlled class environment, let alone against a crazed attacker...Maybe a good flashy kick for those of you who are big in the competition scene, but what happens in tourneys stays in tourneys :-)
--josh

[Tez3]

I don't see it as being a flashy kick nor being difficult to pull off. I've never done it in TSD, I learnt it in Wado Ryu.

[Chizikunbo]

I don't see it as being a flashy kick nor being difficult to pull off. I've never done it in TSD, I learnt it in Wado Ryu.
http://www.chinastrategies.com/johnkick.jpg

http://www.samurai-kassas.com/gallery/Resize%20of%20kassas%20hook%20kick.jpg

Im still gonna say its flash, and not an effective kick for actual usage...that is in the korean way of doing it...I have seen the way JKD people do this and its not as bad, but still not a preferred kick of mine...

[Tez3]

The second picture looks quite flash I agree but it also doesn't look like the hook kick I know, the first picture is more like it. We were taught to bend the knee more though hence the hook of the name. I have to say no kick I do can ever be described as flashy lmao! I wish! I can kick the 4 year olds to the head and that's it, if I do a hook kick to the thigh ( or liver can just manage that depending of the height of who I'm fighting) of my opponent though it's as good as a roundhouse, maybe better as my heel is harder. Kicking low though is good, less chance of them missing or getting caught.

[Em MacIntosh]

Those pictures describe exactly what I'm talking about. I have no trouble using them in sparring. A swing kick is similar except you don't bend the knee, the kick is the same except during the impact and follow-through in which the leg stays straight. You might want to be standing up straighter to take more impact without losing your balance. Kinda like a "reverse muay thai roundhouse kick", torque your hips further than the kick and make the leg catch up. It takes a while to put a lot of force in it. It's hard to explain. Picture an axe kick at a 45 degree angle.

[Chizikunbo]

The second picture looks quite flash I agree but it also doesn't look like the hook kick I know, the first picture is more like it. We were taught to bend the knee more though hence the hook of the name. I have to say no kick I do can ever be described as flashy lmao! I wish! I can kick the 4 year olds to the head and that's it, if I do a hook kick to the thigh ( or liver can just manage that depending of the height of who I'm fighting) of my opponent though it's as good as a roundhouse, maybe better as my heel is harder. Kicking low though is good, less chance of them missing or getting caught.

I could see it being somewhat effective at the thigh level, with the full hook extension, but I am not in favor of any kick to the head level LOL mid-torso (solar plexus) is really as high as it ever needed with any kick IMHO...But yeah, I was taught to do it with the full hook as well, about a 90 degree bend at the knee...
--josh

[Ella]

http://www.chinastrategies.com/johnkick.jpg

http://www.samurai-kassas.com/gallery/Resize%20of%20kassas%20hook%20kick.jpg

Im still gonna say its flash, and not an effective kick for actual usage...that is in the korean way of doing it...I have seen the way JKD people do this and its not as bad, but still not a preferred kick of mine...

Well yes, if you throw it way up to the head it IS just flash. Is there some reason everyone seems to be excluding the possiblity of a hook kick to the groin, or even better, the knee?

[Em MacIntosh]

I thought the option went without saying. Anyone else?

[Zero]

Thanks forthe pics, I thought this was what you meant by the hook as this is exactly what we call it and as we deploy it.

Have always found it a favorite in competition - full contact and when young sport karate. Is so decieving and beautiful to execute as you can do a couple of front foot snap kicks to the head and then if blocked bring up the knee of the front foot again but instead blast out a hook kick and catch them on the unprotected side of the jaw - with the heel (always in contact) and it's lights out - far more powerful than a hook punch. If just sparing then the flat of the foot as in the pic.

To be honest not a kick I ever use down low as can utilise leg attacks with the shin to the knee tendons/joints and thigh nerves for more devastating power and can use the knuckles of the foot, like a front snap kick to get behind at the calves and traditional front kick to the groin/lower abdomen.

The front foot hook kick is also a brilliant in close kick - can be executed as I hope you know far closer than the pics! If trading in close you can after a couple of punches just step out ever so slightly and get the knee up and hook the heel right pack in a pulling motion into the jaw or temple (to me the jaw is favoured as the heel can get in behind the jaw and really rip it out and around = lights out!!!)

Despite what people say and I have trained and fought in wrestling, grapling (judo and jujitsu) and strike fighting and fought in free style and mma, I have used the hook kick (once!) in defense for my protection succesfully.
I guess it is a dangerous thing to say to novices and controversial but I have always rated the kick in self defence. In the non-sanctioned fights I have used head kicks and although in the street fights I have generally used leg attackss and then punches, elbows for upper body attack the high kick is not just some 'flashy' or in the ring move but an all around deadly weapon - but sure you gotta take the environment, assailent(s) timing and distance into account!!.

The punch is of course the fastest to the face/head but with much training the high kick off the front (not back as in roundhouse) foot is bloody fast and deceiving. The front kick to the head is not the same as punching someone's foot - crapola! Try to punch my foot, sure you'll get a knee in the face. But I have been kicked - and kicked many others - in the head enough to dispute that comment outright.

One of my head trainers is a police officer who's job for the last 10 years is in the court house prison cells, bringing crooks up and stopping fights and trouble - I have visited where he works and it is a grim, horrible place. A frightening place to have to work!! This guy has taken out crooks - not in the cells with mutliple hoods - but on the street with head kicks (and has competed in full contact throughout Asia); if any body know's the business of fighting and ending fights it's him. He rates high kicks (in the right moment) and so do I.

Well, glad to get that out!!

[Hand Sword]

Tez, That is a hook kick. As I said, I don't like, or use them.

[Tez3]

Perhaps we should have a sticky with all the various names for kicks, strikes etc so we know what we are talking about lol! ( I didn't search to see if the was one already!)
I think what it comes down to is that we all do moves we are comfortable which is why we get people saying they rate one move and not another while some hate that first move and love the other one. I can't kick at all high, so my favourite moves are never going to be high kicks, I love backhands as mine are pretty good, I like knee strikes MT style and roundhouse kicks MT style.
Like the discussions on which MA is the best I think the best or most effective moves are ones you are comfortable in your competance with in, which means we are always going to have interesting discussions!

[Zero]

No disrespect to the likes of Tez3 who can't get their kicks up high but Tez3, is this due to injury or some condition or just lack of flexibility or effort/training in this area?

I admit that the body is an arsenal of weapons without the use of high kicks but is always good to have a varied repertoire and a punch although better in close and slightly quicker, there is nothing as devastating for a quick knockout as a shin of foot to the jaw/temple!

On this note, have you and those in similar position ever tried 'kinetic stretching'/ This is instead of traditional cold stretching and running for yonks and then stretching out etc. I will dig up some links/pics if you haven't ried this and don't know what I'm mumbling about.

Basically it involves morning and night doing leg raises (swings), back, front and sideways and doing high knee-ups that get the muscles used to the range of motion required. If you can get your knee high and chambered then you can actually do high mawashis, roundhouses and snap and hook kicks with limited leg/hamstring and quad flexibility. It also means you are going around in a state where you don't have to do warm ups to avoid fear of tearing muscle and can execute 95% high kicks at will.

As a result there are guys in my club back home that can't do splits and all that ****** flexibility stuff but can kick a 6ft4' guy in the head.

[Tez3]

Zero, I'm just old! ( In early fifties) I've been doing MA for 15 years now, loads of stretching etc but I just never get there!

I would love it if you could post up those stretches though, for once I'd love to be able to kick high - well highish!
I do MMA now so don't need to kick high but it would be so cool to be able to!

[Em MacIntosh]

I could definitely see a hook kick to the side of the jaw work in self defense, espeacially with the lead leg and me being a high kicker (and with boots on). It is all about the timing and I'm not one to ignore an opportunity when it presents itself, but I find the opportunities to be few and far between. Risk vs Gain thing. The consequences if you fail, I think leave you in a worse position than a failed punch but there's so many possible scenarios it's hard to say. I practice it a lot on the heavy bag. As far as toe-knuckles, count me out.

[kidswarrior]

Zero, I'm just old! ( In early fifties) I've been doing MA for 15 years now, loads of stretching etc but I just never get there!

I would love it if you could post up those stretches though, for once I'd love to be able to kick high - well highish!
I do MMA now so don't need to kick high but it would be so cool to be able to!

Nah, you're not old!! Life begins at 50. It's just that our bodies didn't get the Memo. :)

[searcher]

Just to clarify here. My hook kick is a snappy kick with a little bit of "roundhouse action" in it. It is not the stiff-legged variety I have seen many try to use. Mine is more like a whip and not like a tree limb.


Just so we are on the same page.

[Em MacIntosh]

I call the "dead leg" one a swing kick. Takes practice (what doesn't) but can be a strong kick. Hook kick=hook kick. I concur.

[searcher]

my reason for posting my clarification is that I have had students to the log style and call it a hook kick. I correct them according to the way I teach, not saying the other way is wrong, and they tend to like it a bit better.

The snappier version tends to inflict knockouts more so than the other style.

[chinto]

well as a kick to say a knee or a groin yes, but head and such is not what i would do. but then there are other kicks i would use first for such uses in most cercomstances. but then I am an okinawan stylist, and so come from a diferent back ground then some of the other people.

[Em MacIntosh]

Incidentally, a spinning hook kick is pretty fast as far as spinning kicks go. Kinda like carrying groceries in your ferarri though.

[Zero]

Chinto - interesting comment; my karate is goju ryu okinawan and the hook kick as described by Em MacIntosh is a favourite of one of our senseis and a kick which most in the club train to execute and use in both sport and full contact.

[searcher]

I am with zero. My Chito-ryu is very Okinawan, though it is typically considered Japanese and we use the hook I described.

[Em MacIntosh]

I'm a fellow chito-ryu karateka but we do canadian chito-kai. Some changes have been going on lately. When I first started I had never heard of a hook kick. I learned the hook kick outside the chito ryu dojo. When I came back they were training it.

[chinto]

Chinto - interesting comment; my karate is goju ryu okinawan and the hook kick as described by Em MacIntosh is a favourite of one of our senseis and a kick which most in the club train to execute and use in both sport and full contact.


oh we know the kick, but I would use it on the street low with the heel, rather then high. but it is not a kick I tend to use. each of us have favorite techniques for things, but on the street especialy I would not sugest kicking high. In turnement it would be good as its 'flashy' and hard for the judges to miss at all. but self defence situation keep the kicks low and fast. would be good for say a nasty knee or even groin or ankle kick on the street though.

[chinto]

oh by the way I'm a Shobayashi Shorin Ryu student

[chinto]

I am with zero. My Chito-ryu is very Okinawan, though it is typically considered Japanese and we use the hook I described.
like i said before, I know the kick, have used it once in a while sparring and such, but would not use it high at least on the street. For a lot of the situations you might use that kick a cressent kick might just work better and I perfer that kick to the hook kick really. but we are tought the hook kick and like any other technique it can work well, I just do not advicate kicks above the pubic sinthisis, well at least not for self defence. but then I am a student. there are others who know more then I do

[Em MacIntosh]

Definitely a matter of preference. I almost always do a crescent kick with the left leg and hook kicks with my right. Gotta love hip injuries. I've gotten better with my left though.

[chinto]

Chinto - interesting comment; my karate is goju ryu okinawan and the hook kick as described by Em MacIntosh is a favourite of one of our senseis and a kick which most in the club train to execute and use in both sport and full contact.


oh we know the hook kick, and it is done like em MacIntosh said, but not one I use a lot and not one that our kata teaches really. I personaly do not really like most spinning kicks, and well a hook kick is a tool that has its place, but I prefer a front snap kick and other low line kicks myself.

[chinto]

Definitely a matter of preference. I almost always do a crescent kick with the left leg and hook kicks with my right. Gotta love hip injuries. I've gotten better with my left though.


ya , I know there are some kicks that I do better with one foot then the other... not so much injury as just plain for some reason easer for me on one side then the other ...

hip injurys are very nasty with out a doubt.. I bet that is a major consideration for some things for you.

[Em MacIntosh]

Well, I injured a growth plate doing shoulder rolls while I was about 9 years old. I just stretch it out good, try to train to be ambidextrous and know what I'm better at if it comes down to it. I know the snap-hook to the head is one of my favs for point sparring.

[chinto]

Well, I injured a growth plate doing shoulder rolls while I was about 9 years old. I just stretch it out good, try to train to be ambidextrous and know what I'm better at if it comes down to it. I know the snap-hook to the head is one of my favs for point sparring.
sounds like you got a pretty good way of dealing with the injury.
I understand how that would be a good one for point sparring.

I dont really train for sparring but for self defence myself, and so I like to keep the mainly to low line kicks... but a hook kick to the groin or knee or even ankle are things that can be very nice options.

[Em MacIntosh]

I haven't been to a tourney forever... Keep in mind the heavy bag has more resistance than someone's head. There's a lot of what ifs and I'm no fan of kicking to the head but it carries plenty of power and can take someone out in one quick shot, especially with the heel.

[chinto]

I haven't been to a tourney forever... Keep in mind the heavy bag has more resistance than someone's head. There's a lot of what ifs and I'm no fan of kicking to the head but it carries plenty of power and can take someone out in one quick shot, especially with the heel.


OHH HELL YA.. if it lands .. especialy say wearing steel toed work boots,, YIKES.. that would be a KO minumum. ( actualy a solid one landed with heavy foot gear could easily couse a fataility!) its only in the movies where hard objects strike skulls hard and they just jump up and walk away in a few minutes.

[Martin h]

you just cant get enough power into hook kicks.
Spinning hook kicks have power to spare no mater what hight they are done at (remember Andy Hugs "tornado kick" KO vs Mike Bernardo´s leg in the 1996 k-1 final?), but then you got all the problems of spinning techniques instead.

Ordinary hook kicks are much to light to do any real damage. If you use it you have to hit with the heel to the head. using the sole of the foot (like is common in point tournaments) is useless, and hitting the body is more or less useless using either heel or sole.
And if you hit, and dont KO the opponent with a perfect hit to the temple, you are probably left standing more or less with your back facing the opponent. the instant drawback is not as easy if you tries to put followthrough into the hit.

It has its uses, but it is a very low % effect technique.
Bill Wallace was good at it :-)

[Brandon Fisher]

I can kick pretty hard with it but I was lucky enough to have mine corrected by Bill Wallace who spent some time really critiqueing mine and kicking me with his :banghead:Ouch

[chinto]

you just cant get enough power into hook kicks.
Spinning hook kicks have power to spare no mater what hight they are done at (remember Andy Hugs "tornado kick" KO vs Mike Bernardo´s leg in the 1996 k-1 final?), but then you got all the problems of spinning techniques instead.

Ordinary hook kicks are much to light to do any real damage. If you use it you have to hit with the heel to the head. using the sole of the foot (like is common in point tournaments) is useless, and hitting the body is more or less useless using either heel or sole.
And if you hit, and dont KO the opponent with a perfect hit to the temple, you are probably left standing more or less with your back facing the opponent. the instant drawback is not as easy if you tries to put followthrough into the hit.

It has its uses, but it is a very low % effect technique.
Bill Wallace was good at it :-)

like i said before... target, and how you hit with it. that heal of a boot agenst say the temple with his head down and say a good controle on his arm so he can not 'ride it' at all... very posibly leathal ... not my favorite kick for use in most situations... but there are people who can make it work very well ... especialy lower down.

[searcher]

What do you consider not enough power Martin h? I have enough snap to generate plenty of power. I can break a concrete paver with my straight hook. Is that not enough?

I have had the great fortune of having some Bushidokan Karate BBs help me with mine. I think they are the best(even over Wallace), IMO.

[Martin h]

What do you consider not enough power Martin h? I have enough snap to generate plenty of power. I can break a concrete paver with my straight hook. Is that not enough?

I have had the great fortune of having some Bushidokan Karate BBs help me with mine. I think they are the best(even over Wallace), IMO.

No offense, but breaking bricks is not a adequate test. The brick does not move and you have plenty of time and space to set the kick up. and ofcourse you do not need to worry about telegraphing your intent.
The real question, is if you can generate enough power in sparring to knock a uncompliant opponent out.

But ofcourse it is not impossible to knock someone out with it. Bill Wallace frequently did. There are always people that can get a technique to work, but that is despite the nature of the technique.
It is it is week compared to most other techniques. it is usually easy to see it coming. If it does not generate a KO, it puts you in a very dangerous position. In short it, is a very ineffective technique.

I love it in WKF rules sparring. I would never do it in knockdown.

[searcher]

I have been fighting knockdown and other various types of "full contact" for several years and I have used the hook kick quite well. If I had to take make an estimate of the number of fights I ended with a hook kick, I would say it is around 30%. Not the highest number, but I still feel it is respectable. IMO.

[Zero]

[quote=Martin h;844364]It is it is week compared to most other techniques. it is usually easy to see it coming. If it does not generate a KO, it puts you in a very dangerous position. In short it, is a very ineffective technique.

Martin, I gotta disagree with you man. I have used the hook kick in full contact fights for years with success. It is not a week technique at all - if you use the heel as the contact point against the jaw - it is actually devastating and works just like a hook punch and is definitely a knock-out technique. If you are able to use it from a position that initially looks like a front foot mawashi it is also deceiving as it lands on the opposite side to that which the opponent often anticipates.

I have said somewhere else that I have also used this in a street fight,actually on a patio at a party in a fight and knocked the guy down after first throwing a couple of punches - but how you fight in the street (if this has to happen) is your call. Of course when fighting mma you can be picked up for a slam if this kick is read or if it doesn't land - but this is with most high kicks and the trade-off is something you take.

To wrap up, I feel the hook kick is an effective technique and if done correctly (or should I say, in the manner I was trained) is not easy to see coming at you.

[searcher]

I want to add a little bit here. I will admit that the hook kick is not for everybody. It is not an easy technique to master and some are not capable of using it effectively. But to dismiss it totally is a great underestimation of it capability.

[chinto]

I want to add a little bit here. I will admit that the hook kick is not for everybody. It is not an easy technique to master and some are not capable of using it effectively. But to dismiss it totally is a great underestimation of it capability.


I personaly would not dismiss it at all, just prefer other techniques usualy... but then I prefer the low line kick and do not train for turnement or cage fighting etc, but for self defence and just the enjoyment of training.

[searcher]

I personaly would not dismiss it at all, just prefer other techniques usualy... but then I prefer the low line kick and do not train for turnement or cage fighting etc, but for self defence and just the enjoyment of training.


That clears up a lot for me. I don't train for "cage fighting" or point style tourneys, but I do still work my knockdown and other types of heavy contact fighting. I can easily understand your limited use of the hook in a street type confrontation. I have always looked at the ips as being my high kicks on the street. As I stated in another thread, I believe the rush of adrenaline mixed with other aspects of the fight make it very dangerous to kick the head. You can't really go pulling techniques in a less than life-or-death situation and the risk of overdoing it is just to high. Nothing worse at ruining your day like killing someone.