Newbie to Tae Kwon Do

[GSoden]

Been lurking for the past few months but i figured I would finally post my first thread since every time I log in it keeps telling me I have yet to post. I am currently a yellow belt studying at a school here in Loveland CO. The school is primarily a self defense school that teaches Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Yudo. I knew I would like Tae kwon do etc but I absolutely love it....very addicting. As a newbie, I have a few questions that hopefully some of you can help with.

1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?
2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?
3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

Thanks again for the help.

[Drac]

Greetings..Don't forget to head over to the Meet and Greet section and say "Hi"..

[terryl965]

Welcome, lets see I have been studying TKD for over twenty five years and the clicking part will happens when it happens, as far as a Magazine try Tae Kwon Do Times it covers alot about TKD and Hapkido with some Yudo in it as well. Hope this helps.

[IcemanSK]

Been lurking for the past few months but i figured I would finally post my first thread since every time I log in it keeps telling me I have yet to post. I am currently a yellow belt studying at a school here in Loveland CO. The school is primarily a self defense school that teaches Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Yudo. I knew I would like Tae kwon do etc but I absolutely love it....very addicting. As a newbie, I have a few questions that hopefully some of you can help with.

1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?
2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?
3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

Thanks again for the help.


Welcome to Martial Talk & to Taekwondo.

I would encourage you to ask your instructor about how best to stretch. I say this because he/she can actually see how you stretch & see what may work better for you.

On #1, I hate to be seemingly vague about it, but there is no set time for it to start clicking. For some, it's quick: other's it's a while. Be patient with yourself & train as often as you can & enjoy the time you're there.

As for #3, I've not been impressed with TKD Times for many years.

Get other opinions on all of these questions.

[Dave Leverich]

Been lurking for the past few months but i figured I would finally post my first thread since every time I log in it keeps telling me I have yet to post. I am currently a yellow belt studying at a school here in Loveland CO. The school is primarily a self defense school that teaches Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Yudo. I knew I would like Tae kwon do etc but I absolutely love it....very addicting. As a newbie, I have a few questions that hopefully some of you can help with.
First off, welcome to the forums! Second, welcome to Taekwondo! You'll have a great time I'm sure.



1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?
It can vary greatly, I think mainly depending on how fit you are, how much activity you are used to, dexterity etc. I know it took me probably 6+ months to really feel like things had 'clicked' (when we started sparring). Of course that was at 14, as an awkward kid who'd just grown some 6 inches, then grew 4 more, so I think _everything_ was awkward hehe.


2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?
If you're looking at the stretching 'the hard way', it just takes time, and lots of stretching. I do side kicks with the hip rotated over, so it's not as much those groin tendons, but the scissor style splits action. But, the groin ones help a ton as well. The frog stretch is good (on all 4's, spread the knees with feet against the wall, slowly push back, widen hips as you can). Or the Superfoot stretch with a foot on a point, legs wide, but weight is leaning back relaxed so you're only stretching, not fighting the muscles. Then push forward with your hips with that 'pivot' foot staying on it's point, hold 30 seconds, push more etc. The weight 'back' really helps to keep things from being you fighting your own muscles to stretch.
Time, lots of time, but you'll get it.


3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

Thanks again for the help.

For a TKD magazine.. Honestly no luck there for me, try TKD times though, I haven't read it in years. BB mag is fun sometimes, but it's been a lot less awe inspiring as an adult than it was back in the early 80's.

[Shaderon]

Hello and welcome! Glad you finally started to take the plunge. As well as what Drac said about the met and great section I'll try and help with your questions here too.


1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?

It's different for everyone but for me it was my first grading, seeing everyone above me grading and what they were doing. Little things click at different times though, I keep getting flashes of "of course that's the case" and I presume I will do for some time too. I think if everyone is honest that goes on through your MA life and never stops. I know I don't want mine to stop anyway :)


2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?
Well I like to do ballerina stretches.... that is putting my leg up in a side kick position on a window sill and balancing with my arms in the forearm guarding block position then doing isometric stretches (push down on the windowsill, then relax and move my planting leg out a bit) but I'd really suggest finding a freindly fitness instructor or physio and asking them to show you a couple of stretches that will heklp you as they really shouod check you are doing them right, you can do yourself more harm than good if you do them incorrectly.


3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?
I'm not as up on magasines as other people but my Subum has just got a new magazine called "TaekwonDo" I think. I'll ask him the title of it and see if I can find out who publishes it for you, he says it's really good. he said I can have it when he's finished with it but that might be about 10 years knowing him. ;)

[Kacey]

Been lurking for the past few months but i figured I would finally post my first thread since every time I log in it keeps telling me I have yet to post. I am currently a yellow belt studying at a school here in Loveland CO. The school is primarily a self defense school that teaches Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Yudo. I knew I would like Tae kwon do etc but I absolutely love it....very addicting. As a newbie, I have a few questions that hopefully some of you can help with.

Welcome, and happy posting! :wavey: Loveland, hmm? I'm in Denver, stop by and visit some time if you'd like (visit the website in my signature for info).


1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?

Hey, that's a good one! I mean this in all sincerity. When I was a yellow belt, I thought things were finally starting to click... then I got to green belt and another layer of complexity appeared... and then blue belt... and so on. When one thing clicks, it means it's time to learn the next level. It's part of what I like about TKD.


2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?

Well, do you mean to get it hip high, chest high, head high, above head high? Different stretches are often beneficial for each one. The one thing I would suggest, however, is that whatever stretches you're doing, do them after you work out; stretching/warm-ups before class are to prevent injury, and while they will help with flexibility some over time, the best time to stretch for flexibility is after class when your muscles are warmer and looser - and less likely to tear.


3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

I don't know; I don't usually read them.

Thanks again for the help.[/quote]

[TKDmel]

Since my learned collegues have said it all, I will welcome you to MT and many happy postings. But, btw, I've been doing this for over 20 years and things still "click" at times, and the side kick stretch is still not going well for me, LOL! But I won't give up trying! Have fun and again, welcome!

[cali_tkdbruin]

1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?
2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?
3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

Hey there GSoden, welcome aboard!
The others here have given you some good tips. My 2cents are:
1. The "clicking" is constant as your training in TKD progresses because as you progress, you're taught new techniques that seem really difficult at 1st. Then these just get easier the more and more you practice them, like starting with poomse, jumping front snap kick, flying side kick, back hook kick, tornado kick, etc., etc. After doing it so many times it just starts to become automatic. It clicks.
2. The stretching also takes time, especially when you're new to our martial art, and performing the types of techniques and movements we utilize in TKD, especially the various kicks. When I was a rookie I remember my flexibility was somewhat limited. After repetitive stretching sessions before class and over time, tightness became much less of a problem.
3. Taekwondo Times had good coverage of both TKD and HKD when I used to subscribe a few years ago.

Good luck and happy training. It might become an obsession for you like it did for me... :ultracool

[Last Fearner]

I am currently a yellow belt studying at a school here in Loveland CO.

Hi, GSoden, and welcome to Martial Talk! :wavey:


The school is primarily a self defense school that teaches Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Yudo.
I also teach Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Yudo, as well as Hoshinsul and weaponry.

1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". Is there a normal period of time where you finally start to feel like you are really getting over the awkwardness and you can start to put together the things you are learning?

As others have said, it varies with the individual. The feeling of awkwardness usually begins to dissipate within the first 6 months, but it might take a year or two to really feel like you are able to put things together. Don't be so concerned about time-tables, just know that it will "click" some day, and the journey is what is most important.

2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?

I agree with the others who say you should direct this question to your instructor who can personally look at what you might be doing right or wrong. Patience, persistence, and proper tension are the keys. Pain when stretching is telling you your going too far. Any stretching of your leg and groin muscles will help if you do it slow, and steady. For specific kicks, get your hips, and body in position for that kick, then do the splits on the floor, or on an elevate prop while standing. Go to the point you feel tension, slightly stretch the muscles and tendons further, then relax.

Stretch every day! One day, stretch thorough for increased flexibility (30 minutes to one hour on different positions). For the next three days, do light maintenance stretching (about 15 minutes total). Be patient, it will come in time.

3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

Taekwondo Times is pretty good - - considering....! Most of the Martial Art magazines contain the same things. Advertisements, articles on personal insights and experiences (some good reads, and others not so much), some basic technical combinations that really don't teach the reader anything useful, and typically only impresses the non-martial artist or extreme novice. You usually get better instruction in your first few weeks of genuine classes. Then there are the biographies and philosophies of some senior Martial Artists.

They can be entertaining and somewhat educational, but make sure you don't believe everything you read in them just because it is in print, or the word of a so-called "expert." The Martial Art world is filled with "experts."

I'm not sure what is still in print (I believe "Inside Taekwondo" is no longer around), and others are popping up all the time.

Try to find these:

Taekwondo Times
Hapkido Magazine
Dojang Magazine

CM D.J. Eisenhart

[GSoden]

thank you everyone for the replies and advice...greatly appreciated! Kacey, thanks for the invitiation. I used to live in Denver but don't get down there much any more. If I do make it down there, I will be sure to stop by. Thanks again and we'll talk to you soon.

[tkd_Jaz]

Welcome to MT and welcome to the awesome art of TKD.

[bluemtn]

Well, first off- welcome to MT! Secondly, I found getting over that "awkwardness" kind of just happened (no specific time), but started noticing a good bit went away once I reached yellow belt. Also, flexibility takes some time to achieve, depending on where you're currently at in that area. Some people are very flexible naturally, so it only takes a certain amount/ time to get kicks up high, etc. However, depending on your age that you're starting, if you've done anything that needed a certain amount of flexibility (certain sports, dance, etc.)- or not... It's all in your body, I'm afraid. Always stretch before class, even before you do it with the rest of your class helps acheive a certain height for those kicks. I'd also recommend stretching in your spare time, while at home watching t.v. or whatever.

Best wishes with your training!

[bigfootsquatch]

Light Warmup, Dynamic Stretching, MA Work out, Strength Training such as lunges, Isometric and/or relaxed stretches, jumping jacks or similiar to cool down.

Most tend to do the relaxed stretching instead of the other, or do the relaxed as the pre work out/warm up. If you don't what the stretches are I mentioned then try "Stretching Scientifically" by Tom Kurz. You could probably google the various stretches and get info. Any attempt for me to explain it would take a lot of space, and I'd still not get it right =D

[exile]

Hi, GS—you've gotten a lot of useful advice and suggestions; I'll toss some of my own experience onto the heap of possibly helpful input.

(i) So far as things clicking is concerned... there are several levels which interact to make things click, and you kind of have to train those levels differently. So for example, a lot of kicking techniques only click when you have developed both strength and balance. You can train these by specific drills and exercise (Loren Christensen's outstanding book Solo Training gives some excellent excercise to develop both), but the point is that a proper roundhous or sidekick is very hard for a beginner precisely because the kinæsthetic and strength requirements are so specific to MAs; the necessary increase in the power and endurance of the hip flexors, for example, is unlikely to be achieved by anything you can do with free weights, say, in a normal strength training program. Your best bet is just to keep training kicks, about 30 minutes to an hour a day ideally. It took me about 18 months to get to the point where I could actually do a decent roundhouse kick in good form and stop the kick at any arbitrary poiint and `freeze' there for at least ten seconds. It took me still longer to be able to do that with a rear-leg side kick. So that aspect of it depends on your training frequency and intensity.

But there is a more complex level, involving the sudden coherence of a series of disconnected techniques and moves into a kind of smooth, swift flow which is in part a matter of some kind of higher-order cognitive breakthrough... so that you suddenly `get' a complex technique, or a form, or a self-defense application, which had previously seemed impenetrable. This kind of gestalt phenomenon is very hard to predict or to train for, and it's far from exclusive to TKD, or MAs (I've experienced it in skiing and tennis), or physical skills in general (I've also experienced it studying physics and logic). It seems to reflect a general phenomenon where previously complex, separate concepts or skills are suddenly seen as coherently linked to each other, so that a more general, simpler picture emerges. Right now, we don't even have a commonly agreed-on name for this phenomenon, let alone the ghost of an account of how it happens, or when.

(ii) stretches: bigfootsquatch's post (#14) mentions Tom Kurz's work, which I've always found very useful and applicable. So do not neglect dynamic stretching, is about the best I can offer here. I know it seems a bit unorthodox... but I'd save the static floor stretches and the like for the cooldown at the end of your workout.

(iii) magazines... there are actually a number of threads on this that you might check out in the MT Archives (the `search' utility is your friend! :) ). There's a fairly broad consensus that neither Black Belt, nor TKD Times, are particularly trustworthy or reliable. I would go further: both of 'em are primarily delivery vehicles for advertising and their content is largely determined by their major advertisers. At one point, when I had gotten my fifth issue or so of TKD Times, I decided to try a little experiment, involving comparison of the column space devoted to particular dojangs, `industry leaders' and various notables, on the one hand, with advertising investment by those dojangs, industry leaders and so on on the other. I quit after two issues' worth, because it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Women's magazines are often accused of using advertising revenue considerations to guide their coverage, and so far as I can see there's a lot to that, but they can't hold a candle, for sheer obvious greedhead payola, to the MA magazines.

That wouldn't be so bad, if the articles these magazines published at least had some sound content, but in so many cases, what's published in an obvious crock. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that you have to watch out for putative `experts' in the MAs, and boy, does that come out clearly in the big MA mags. Take the latest Black Belt—please! :lol: (well, I thought it was funny!). They have some middle dan rank Tang Soo Do guy (TSD is an identical twin MA to TKD; they only look different now because their life experience has left scars on them in different places) raving on about the supposed two-thousand year ancient history of the KMA, invoking a bunch of putative archæological and textual evidence for this ancient status. But every single alleged fact he adduces turns out not only to not support his claims, but to actually provide strong evidence that for almost all of its history the martial arts of Korea were firmly rooted in Chinese combat systems that, moreover, long predated their appearance on the Korean peninsula. A single example will have to do: this guy raves on for a while about the enormous military manual Muye Dobu Tong Ji,, cited as a primary source for indigenous KMAs, which supposedly establish the evidence base for a distinctive Korean MA tradition on the peninsula. The joke here is that the MDTJ was positively identified by both the martial arts historians Dakin Burdick and Stanley Henning (in separate articles in 1997 and 2000 issues of Journal of Asian Martial Arts)—whose training allowed them to analyze not only the original Korean version but also Chinese and Japanese military manuals of the same general era—as an almost literal translation of a Chinese treatise by one of the big-shot Han generals (charmingly titled, in translation, The New Book of Effective Discipline)—published 250 years earlier than the MDTJ. The author in the BB article in question clearly had no clue about what kind of results current academic scholarship has turned about about these core, classic works; nor was he apparently aware of a followup article by Manuel Androgué in a 2003 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts, representing the deepest and broadest study of the relationship between modern Korean MAs and traditional military training manuals, which backs up Burdick's and Henning's earlier conclusions and more, concluding, after an exhaustive consideration of its content and relations to earlier Chinese texts, that

from an historical perspective, it becomes apparent that any appeal to the Muye Dobu Tong Ji as evidence for the antiquity of any Korean modern art is unacceptable today.

And every single other component of the BB articles `argument' turns out to involve reliance on long-discredited confusions of legend with history that have been gutted by carefully documented historical scholarship.

This kind of bogus legendmongering as history is pretty much par for the course in Black Belt. My advice: if you subscribe to only one periodical in the MAs, Journal of Asian Martial Arts is light-years ahead of anything else on the planet. So far as I know, it's the only peer-reviewed source amongst MA periodicals, and its authors are required to provide full documentary citation for their claims. The disadvantage is, it covers a hell of a lot more ground than just TKD, or even the KMAs. But what you do get from them on the KMAs has been vetted under a magnifying glass and passed muster.

If you have a second choice, I suspect the British MA magazines are a cut above what we have in North America. Britain is the home of the new renaissance of interest in TKD as a hard, no-nonsense street-effective martial art, following a similar development in karate, TKD's parent art, over the past decade. Taekwondo in particular seems to have a good rep there.

[Steel Tiger]

Just had to get that Muye Dobu Tong Ji thing off your chest huh Exile?

[exile]

Just had to get that Muye Dobu Tong Ji thing off your chest huh Exile?

Who, me?? :angel:

[terryl965]

Who, me?? :angel:

Yes you

[exile]

Who, me?? :angel:

Yes you

Well... OK... me! :EG: :EG: :EG:

[Brian R. VanCise]

Welcome to MartialTalk and I am glad that you have found TKD to be enjoyable! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Gemini]

1) I am curious how long it normally takes for the things you learn to start "clicking". .

I began "clicking" at blue belt. Your results may vary :)


2) I am making progress on stretching etc but am really having a tough time getting the right stretches to help with the flexibility doing a side kick. Any advice?.

I'm an old guy and stretching is an ongoing issue for me. Learn proper streching techniques from those with proven results and don't get "innovative" here.

3) any advice on a magazine that will cover the three arts taught at this school? I have bought Black Belt and it is good but there isn't much TKD in it. Is TKD Times good?

I like it but I've learned much more here than there.

Welcome! :)

[Last Fearner]

While I do not want to de-rail this thread, and get into a heated debate about differences of opinion among professionals and experts - - suffice to say that not all experts on this subject agree, or have come to the same conclusions expressed in exile's previous post. While he has the right to state these opinions, and facts quoted by some experts may support the conclusions he has drawn, they are still "conclusions" and are not necessarily absolute confirmed truth.

It is only fair to present to the readers that there are many life-long professional instructors and experts who have a different understanding of what the pieces of the puzzle really mean when put together. Some research disproves previous theories, while other claims are merely hunches drawn on a lack of complete evidence to historical events.


(TSD is an identical twin MA to TKD; they only look different now because their life experience has left scars on them in different places)
There are experts who do not consider TSD and TKD as "identical twins" for many reasons beyond recent "scars."


raving on about the supposed two-thousand year ancient history of the KMA,
Just so Taekwondo enthusiasts don't accept this as the "final word" - - not all contention that KMA stems from a native history dating back two-thousand years are "ravings."


from an historical perspective, it becomes apparent that any appeal to the Muye Dobu Tong Ji as evidence for the antiquity of any Korean modern art is unacceptable today.
Again, not to be the "final word" that suggests all experts agree historically that the Muye Dobu Tong Ji is "unacceptable" when discussing the validity of Korean Martial Art. The existence of this book and its apparent date in history has significance beyond where the text itself came from. In other words, I don't want readers who are new to TKD to accept blindly that any reference to this book by experts in support of ancient KMA has been unilaterally dismissed as "unacceptable" by all experts.


This kind of bogus legendmongering as history

Some twisting of historical events pertaining to KMA might be accurately described as "legendmongering" if one wants to term it as such, but for novice readers to keep in mind, not everyone agrees that any reference to KMA, and specifically Taekwondo, is "bogus" as to being terms used to describe ancient native fighting systems of Korea.


following a similar development in karate, TKD's parent art, over the past decade.
Here again, to the impressionable mind of other readers who might subliminally record statements such as this as a "well-established fact," there are many experts who do not agree that "Karate" is Taekwondo's "parent art." This is not supported by un-refutable proof. There are opinions and specific perspectives that focus on the recent Kwan development and those people's involvement in the unavoidable Japanese Martial Art presented by an occupying foreign nation, but Taekwondo is also defined by many to specifically refer to that which existed in Korean before any Japanese influence, thus the broader term of "Taekwondo" can not be descended from Karate. Not to debate the issue here, just so that readers know that there is more than one side to that viewpoint which is also held as a genuine expert perspective.

Finally, saying that we don't have proof or written documentation as evidence to support claims of ancient Korean Martial Art does not prove a counter-claim that it never existed. If the only evidence we have is weak, perhaps it needs further exploration rather than total abandonment. Some will wait till they have the concrete proof they need before they accept an inkling of oral history, but others have a different interpretation based on personal understanding of the culture. In any event, Mile's conclusions are mostly logical, and sound based on some expert's research and theories drawn from that research, but it is not conclusive, and not shared by all Taekwondo and KMA experts.

Other threads are out there for those who wish to debate this, but my reply here is just so that both points of views are put out there. If people hear the same statements over and over, and they go unchallenged, they begin to accept it as fact. The facts are inconclusive in all directions here.

Thanks,
CM D.J. Eisenhart

[exile]

I'm going to reply to LF's previous post in a way which, I hope, keeps a close connection to the OP so far as the question of `which magazines', and more generally, which parts of the TKD literature, are worth looking into and taking seriously.

There is fairly basic methodological concept which is typically overlooked in many of the articles published by Black Belt and other popular MA mags, but also by the vast majority of work I've seen on KMAs (in marked contrast to what I've seen in the Okinawan/Japanese karate literature, where writers seem to be much more aware of the issue). This concept is standardly labelled burden of proof, and it works like this: in a situation about which nothing is known, no statement has inherently greater plausibility than any other, very roughly speaking. Therefore, a particular claim about that situation—which simultaneously asserts X and denies the truth of mutually exclusive alternatives to X—has no greater claim to believability than a similar claim asserting Y, or Z, or... Hence, in such a situation, no assertion has privileged status. Suppose now that we discover some fact A which is compatible with X, but not Y or Z or etc. The picture changes radically from one where no particular claim has privileged status to one in which X has that status. Hence, someone who wants to promote X over Y, Z, ... needs to come up with one or more facts like A; otherwise, the situation continues to be one in which no particular claim is more likely than any other. This is just a basic constraint on arguments about empirical domains like physics, history, psychology and so on. The point is in asserting X convincingly, you take on a burden of proof, which a fact like A would meet, at least in large part.

Now when claims are made about the history or technique of a particular MA, the general requirement of meeting a burden of proof applies as much as it does anywhere else. The claim that TKD has a 2000—or 1000 or 500 or whatever—year old history is subject to the requirement that there be positive evidence making the likelihood of the claim superior to the alternative, that TKD is no more than 70 or 80 years old, say. One of the frequently repeated bits of evidence intended to meet the burden of proof for the `ancient KMA' assertion has been, for a long time, the Muye Dobu Tong Ji. It's worth pointing out at this point that the MDTJ says almost nothing about empty hand techs—something pointed out in the in-depth scholarly literature on the subject I've cited, but not in the BB magazine article I mentioned nor in virtually any of the KMA texts I've read which allude to it; the sheer fact of this book's existence seems to be taken as sufficient evidence for ancient indigenous empty-handed techs somehow ancestral to those in modern TKD. But let that go, for the moment; the point is, the MDTJ is, as Dakin Burdick observed in his 1997 JAMA article, one of the three pillars of the claim for the roots of modern KMA in a distant antiquity.

What we now have is a body of detailed, linguistically and philologically well-informed critical literature which has shown—by meticulous side-by-side textual examination of both the MDTJ and several other still earlier Asian treatises on combat techniques—that the MDTJ is in essence a literal translation of a Chinese military text written ten generations before the MDTJ appeared. The content thus represents Chinese weapon and their use, Chinese strategic and tactical concepts, and is in effect a presentation in the Korean language of a substantial chunk of Chinese military culture and practice. There is no martial content in the MDTJ which does not appear first—by 250 years!—in the New Book of Effective Discipline. Exhaustive documentation for this claim is provided by the JAMA articles by Burdick, Henning and Androgué that I cited in my previous post. The conclusion which follows—and note, by `conclusion', I mean nothing other than a deduction based on the available evidence—is that the MDTJ, by virtue of it's completely Han military content, has no bearing on the antiquity of modern KMA's origins, and therefore fails to meet the burden of proof for any claims that these origins are ancient.

In order to restore the MDTJ as a source meeting that burden of proof, it would be necessary for supporters of ancient KMA to counter the translations, analyses and documentation of the scholars I've cited, at the same or a superior level of detail. Burdick, Henning and Androgué have amassed an enormous body of evidence on behalf of their assessment of the MDTJ's provenience and content. To meet the burden of proof for the CLAIM that LF makes—that `The existence of this book and its apparent date in history has significance beyond where the text itself came from', insofar as it has any bearing on the question of ancient KMAs—would require a demonstration, at the same level of detail, that a book with completely Chinese content tells us something about the KMAs. If the MDTJ is, as the mass of evidence alluded to substantiates, a manual, written in Korean, consisting of Chinese military techniques taken text-for-text from a Chinese source, then the default inference is that the KMAs of the time consisted of Chinese military techniques, a point discussed in detail in Burdick's article. In other words, the claim that the MDTJ most clearly does support is that, at the time it was written, Korean military techniques were the same as those practiced throughout the vast Han empire 250 years earlier. To try to use the MDTJ to support the existence of an ancient (or even contemporary) native KMA set of traditions, a rather crushing burden of proof therefore needs to be met.

Now, exactly who is doing this `meeting?' LF comments that `I don't want readers who are new to TKD to accept blindly that any reference to this book by experts in support of ancient KMA has been unilaterally dismissed as "unacceptable" by all experts'. Well, who are the experts who have met the burden of proof imposed by Burdick, Henning and Androgué—at this moment, the outstanding Western experts on the history of the KMAs, as attested by the documented published work (which, interestingly, tend to reinforce each other's conclusions, even though so far as I know the three have worked completely independently of each other during their careers)? Who has shown either that their conclusions are incorrect, or that in spite of them, there is still evidence in this literal translation of an older Chinese military manual for ancient Koreran military practices—including empty-hand techniques, which, as noted earlier, have almost no place in the MDTJ (following, of course, the Chinese source of this work), and where they do appear, seem to involve nothing different from chuan fa methods of the time? Where is the work of these alleged dissenting experts? I am familiar with the content of JAMA, and they haven't been publishing there. And I try to keep an eye on the TKD literature, particularly books with any kind of historical coverage; I haven't seen anything in the past 10 years that even remotely addresses the discoveries that Burdick, Henning and Androgué have made, let alone counters them.

If claims such as one that appeared in BB were made instead in Journal of Asian Martial Arts, you can be sure—from the content of JAMA from the time it first started—that there would be massive attention paid to this issue of meeting the burden of proof. The articles of the three scholars I've cited are documented on an almost sentence-by-sentence level of grain; certainly, any substantial claim is supported either by citation of sources or by the author's own up-front presentation of his own translation from the relevant texts. But the BB article contains not a single piece of critically vetted support for the claim, just as LF's claim offers not a single actual piece of scholarship that meets the burden of proof for the subclaim that the MDTJ, in spite of being a translated Chinese document, still tells us something about ancient KMA practice. Instead, we get either no support at all, or else vague claims that other experts possibly disagree, all of it unanchored to a single piece of in-depth counterargumentation—no articles or monographs, no citations, no names, nothing.

The BB style, in which the burden of proof is conspicuously ignored and instead, old misconceptions appear to be endlessly recycled as though they has never been severely undermined during the last decade of peer-reviewed scholarship, is unfortunately the norm in MA magazine publishing (TKD Times has been guilty of the same critical irresponsibility). What makes JAMA immeasurably superior to these other sources, and the reason I suggest it in place of anything else I've seen published in North America, is that the peer-review process requires substantiation of claims by full explanation of reasoning backed by up-front citation of sources. Similar remarks apply MA texts.

And the issue isn't restricted to issues of historical accuracy and well-supported argument. Issues of technical content in the MAs can't really be totally decoupled from issues of history; look at all the arguments for what the optimal bunkai for karate kata (including TKD/TSD hyungs) are. Your view of the history of TKD and that its methods are going to be linked; the article in BB I've been alluding to is a perfect example of that. Invoking the totally undocumented, fantastical picture of Hwarang warriors (about whom we actually know almost nothing) developing high kicks to knock fully `armored', weapon-wielding Koryo warriors off their horses, gives a rather different picture of the role of high kicks than the well-documented history of modern KMA, where it is apparent that these kicks have entered the technical lexicon in response to tournament competitions.

Historical interpretations condition our thinking and expectations about actual practice at many levels, and any magazine or book which presents an extremely dubious legendary fantasy in place of carefully reasoned history is very likely to be unreliable on the technical side—certainly insofar as issues of self-defense are concerned—as well. Caveat emptor, caveat lector.

[TX_BB]

To go a different direction.

Loveland, CO are you with WT Alexander?

[GSoden]

Yes, I am at his school. You do know that he passed away on the 1st of June. ?? Devastating news for everyone at the school. I have only been at the school since October of last year but still felt like I knew him much longer.

[TX_BB]

My Condolences to the Family and friends of William T. Alexander Major USMC (ret). I learned of his passing in Fresno from Bob Mckenna. WT was an associate of mine as a referee and coach. We normally caught up with each other at the gym at between 5-6 am. He'll be missed by all.

Honor, Duty, Country - Siemper Fi WT

[RED]

Welcome to MT and TKD. As with anything you get out of it what you put into it. Practice often and get well rooted in the fundimental moves. You can throw a kick a thousand times and still not have a good grasp on it if you don't have the fundimentals down pat.

The same for stretching. I found a link on the home page of MT that helped considerably with stretching the inner thighs. I do the Balistic stretching mentioned after a workout. http://www.cmcrossroads.com/bradapp/docs/rec/stretching/

Good stuff here.

As far as a magazine, I don't subscribe to any. Every instructor I've had has had different ways of doing things. Where to start a move from to where it lands. I've picked up a few things from books and mags, but I don't let it contradict what my instructor is teaching.