How Important is Rank to You??

[chinto01]

Was doing some thinking last evening and this thought came to my head. What happens when my Sensei passes? The usual thoughts came and then the thought of future promotions came to mind. Would I ever accept a promotion from anyone again? I came to the conclusion that I would not. The reason being is that it is not the paper but your knowledge and in some way i would feel I am betraying him. Thought this would be an interesting topic.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[mrhnau]

I've spent some time contemplating this... as an individual, I honestly don't care what color my belt is. If I have the knowledge and ability to use it, then that is enough for me.

that being said, there are a few reasons (at least IMO) that one might need rank...

1) if you can only learn certain concepts at higher levels in your school, I suppose you need to work your way through the ranks. Perhaps sparring only occurs at higher levels?

2) if you ever want to teach or open your own school, people use rank as a metric to gauge your skill level. I don't know many people who are 10th kyu opening up excellent schools, and honestly wouldn't most MAist laugh at them if they did?

3) It's a metric for skill level. If you are a Shodan in one art, you can communicate with another Shodan w/out having to discuss certain basic concepts that are obvious to a Shodan but not someone who is 10th kyu. If you transfer schools having a rank gives the instructor an idea of where you are skill wise. This is assuming criteria for rank is universal.

Does a rank make you better? Not really, but I guess its kind of a necessary evil these days :) One day I'd enjoy teaching, so I suppose some kind of rank is needed...

[MJS]

Was doing some thinking last evening and this thought came to my head. What happens when my Sensei passes? The usual thoughts came and then the thought of future promotions came to mind. Would I ever accept a promotion from anyone again? I came to the conclusion that I would not. The reason being is that it is not the paper but your knowledge and in some way i would feel I am betraying him. Thought this would be an interesting topic.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

I've never been a rank chaser. My theory is, when it happens, it happens. This is not to say that I'm not greatful for the rank that I have and all of the instructors that I've spent time with, but I'm more interested in learning, bettering myself and having an understanding of the material.

I hope that my current instructor has many, many more years to come. :) When that time comes, I'll worry about it then. :)

Mike

[Drac]

I am an Instructor..That's good enough for me...

[Dave Leverich]

The only thing I find rank to be is a good way to determine 'order', it lets us see skill levels and well... rank. I'm not a chaser by any means, but I will continue down that path regardless.

On a side note, I think you would do disservice by NOT continuing on after your Sensei has passed. I know that for myself, the greatest accomplishment would be for one of my juniors to go beyond where I have in their journey.

[IWishToLearn]

Except for special occasions I've taken to wearing a plain black belt with nothing whatsoever showing, even though I've got several belts from several systems.

I teach because my students asked me to, and my school is very small, but growing via word of mouth.

Now, to answer the question asked. Is rank important?

It depends.

It depends on your skill level and your self-confidence. I don't consider myself particularly good, but my students have all been encouraged to visit other schools and have chosen me to teach them. I'm confident in what I do - yes, I have three black belts, and a 1st gup in tkd to boot. I normally only wear the stripes or the fancy uniform for promotions when the parents and friends and relatives and whatnot show up, it's a big pomp & circumstance day, so we wear the pomp & circumstance. My rank is deemed such by the people who have assigned said rank to me. It's important because it has allowed me the extended knowledge to be a better teacher.

It depends on the value the system in which you train places on rank. The base for my system is IKCA Kenpo. One blue belt is expected to be on the same skill level as another IKCA blue belt. Does it happen consistantly EVERY time? Hell no. I've never seen a school where every student of x rank is the same. Because every human being is different. Do all of our blue belts know the same basic material? Yes. Are they all equally adept at the execution of that material? No. For reasons above. I judge my own students on a separate bar than the rest of the blue belts. (I'm using blue belt as an example cause blue is my fav color :P.) I have EXTREMELY high standards - and this leads me to my next point.

It depends on the value of the material required for that rank. My own students are required to OWN their material and be able to demonstrate it physically, discuss it intelligently orally, and prepare an assigned topic paper on a subject relevant to their current training. Now, the material required of them is presented and refined until they are highly competent with the material before they are allowed to be even considered for testing. And their tests have a three tiered scoring system. Under 80% and they fail. Under 88% and they Pass on Condition - which means they get the diploma and new belt, but they must retest for that same belt (no charge, just have to refine & tighten up the loose ends for at least 30 days) with 95%+ before they get to move on to new material. So then - rank in my school is important only in the fact that if you see a student wearing rank X, you know he/she EARNED that rank and is therefore a good person to ask for assistance if you want help learning something. Since they are required to be able to discuss it orally and have written and performed it themselves, they own the material, and can help others learn their material.

Is rank an important thing - it depends. :)

[Em MacIntosh]

If I feel confident in my sensei and he promotes me, I feel he thinks I've reached a higher level of competence. This reassures me that I've improved and am prepared to learn new material, and also sets a bar for how good I have to maintain my old material. As a default, we are supposed to administer our own self-discepline but it helps so much to have guidance. I see my sensei as a beacon in a vast sea. I could choose not to trust him and be on my own, however, I do not feel confident enough to wander on my own yet. It's like growing up, take advantage of the fact that your mother mother's you. You'll miss it when it's not there.

[Xue Sheng]

Rank :confused:

What is this rank you speak of :confused:

I train traditional CMA, no rank.

My first Sifu trained me and told me one day I could teach what he taught me so I taught. My second Sifu is teaching me now and if he tells me I can teach I will teach, my 3rd Sifu same thing and I am considering a 4th and it will again be the same thing. For the most part they are different styles but still no rank.

[mrhnau]

Rank :confused:

What is this rank you speak of :confused:

I train traditional CMA, no rank.

My first Sifu trained me and told me one day I could teach what he taught me so I taught. My second Sifu is teaching me now and if he tells me I can teach I will teach, my 3rd Sifu same thing and I am considering a 4th and it will again be the same thing. For the most part they are different styles but still no rank.
I like that concept... just three "ranks" perhaps... student, teacher, master... what else is really needed?

[bushidomartialarts]

Rank as a concept is utterly unimportant. Especially when you get up in the middle to high black ranks...it's not even a reliable indicator of skill anymore.

As a method for setting and achieving goals, though, it's tops. Any system that includes well defined, subdivided goals is ultimately a good system -- it's part of why martial arts builds confidence and power.

I still look to my next rank when setting life goals. It's a way of staying on track.

[Chizikunbo]

Was doing some thinking last evening and this thought came to my head. What happens when my Sensei passes? The usual thoughts came and then the thought of future promotions came to mind. Would I ever accept a promotion from anyone again? I came to the conclusion that I would not. The reason being is that it is not the paper but your knowledge and in some way i would feel I am betraying him. Thought this would be an interesting topic.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

First of all...Great Topic.
Secondly, I think that rank is not very important. I train to train, because I love the arts, and I love what the arts do for me. We need to examine the history or rank, being that it was created to show a students progress, in large for the teacher originally. These days it seems to be more for the student, a milestone if you will.
If your sensei would pass, wether to accept rank or not is entirely your descision. However, the better question would be would you train again. If you studied under a new instructor to continue your knowledge, and you progressed it would not be disrespectful for you to accept another milestone marker, as it is just the next step in your journey. In the event of your teachers passing (which I hope is not any time soon) you must think, would your instructor want you to continue to enhance and expand your knowledge and understanding of this art, or would he want you to stop simply because he is gone? We all die someday, it cannot be stopped. Usually out instructors are much older than we, and thus die sooner than we, its a fact of life. But should we no longer progress simply because nature has continued its course? I think not. Like nature I know I would keep going, rank is secondary. But if I continued training with a new instructor and he/she felt the need to give me a new rank I would probably accept it, but with full knolwedge, respect, and memory that it was my first instructor who laid the foundation for that new knowledge to grow on and for the new rank to be awarded ;-)
Take care,
--Josh

[chinto01]

Great responses so far. A few people bring up the point of continued training after he passes. ABSOLUTLEY! It will be my responsibility to pass on what he has shared with me. I look forward to that task the day it comes.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Em MacIntosh]

Sorry to bring up a hot topic but it fits my description of why some people have religeon in their spirituality. Life is complicated, MA training is complicated. It helps to have a set of instructions, a teacher, and manageable steps to learn. I feel religeon is something that has to be adhered to by definition of the word and it represents a persons views on how life should be lived, in order to break down morality, duty and belief into manegaeble, bite-sized peices. To me, rank is simmilar. It breaks down the knowledge into steps that reinforce the next steps. It's not just a "learn to walk before you learn to fly" thing but also because the basics are the most important and have the most time spent on them. If someone adheres to his MA training religeously, I feel he could consider it a religeon, especially if he places spiritual importance or significance on it. I feel that spirituality is simmilar to MA, and rank is simmilar to religeon. Not the same mind you. Just a crazy notion.

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry to bring up a hot topic but it fits my description of why some people have religeon in their spirituality. Life is complicated, MA training is complicated. It helps to have a set of instructions, a teacher, and manageable steps to learn. I feel religeon is something that has to be adhered to by definition of the word and it represents a persons views on how life should be lived, in order to break down morality, duty and belief into manegaeble, bite-sized peices. To me, rank is simmilar. It breaks down the knowledge into steps that reinforce the next steps. It's not just a "learn to walk before you learn to fly" thing but also because the basics are the most important and have the most time spent on them. If someone adheres to his MA training religeously, I feel he could consider it a religeon, especially if he places spiritual importance or significance on it. I feel that spirituality is simmilar to MA, and rank is simmilar to religeon. Not the same mind you. Just a crazy notion.

Hey wait a minute… did you just call me a heathen because I train traditional CMA and we have no rank!!! :uhyeah:

[Em MacIntosh]

Ahh the hot topic lol.
Nah. Don't mind me.
I'm just a warrior on a holy quest.
I'll kill you if you don't believe like I do.

[Em MacIntosh]

Who am I to judge another? If it works good for you, I guess you aren't wasting your time. I'm not particularly religeous (or spiritual for that matter), but I respect the concept. The same goes with rank. If it helps you good if not, bad. I don't "need either" but sometimes it helps me, sometimes it might hold me back.

[morph4me]

Hey wait a minute… did you just call me a heathen because I train traditional CMA and we have no rank!!! :uhyeah:

Of course not, you're training and not having rank has nothing to do with you being a heathen.:uhyeah:

[jim777]

Was doing some thinking last evening and this thought came to my head. What happens when my Sensei passes? ....
In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

Without knowing your Sensei, but seeing how you feel about him, I could make a guess here. That guess would be that he is not training you to become him, but rather to become the best you that you can attain. He is not the path, but your guide on your path. I believe he would be disapointed if you did not continue down the path should he pass. You may never have another guide like him, but the path will remain for you to follow regardless. As for promotions, take them if they come. Neither they nor you (for taking them) will dishonor your sensei.

jim

[Rich Parsons]

Rank :confused:

What is this rank you speak of :confused:

I train traditional CMA, no rank.

My first Sifu trained me and told me one day I could teach what he taught me so I taught. My second Sifu is teaching me now and if he tells me I can teach I will teach, my 3rd Sifu same thing and I am considering a 4th and it will again be the same thing. For the most part they are different styles but still no rank.


I understand, for the system of Balintawak I study there is no rank. Only the blessing of the instructor to teach. It is up to the studnet to decide to teach for if they do and they do a poor job then their studnets will reflect upon them. If they do teach some may get upset and challenge them (* he meant physically, but in today's world it more likely to be verbal or written such as on the internet *) where one defends themselves as the see fit.

I also understand rank as in the other system I study, Modern Arnis, there is rank and titles and all that goes with it. I have rank and can use the title of Master, but I prefer just to be Rich off the matts and on the matts the simple respect given to everyone which is a simple Sir or Mame.

[whitetiger2001]

This is a very good question and took me time to condiser the answer

I would not see it as disloyal to accept new rank or material from another sensei if mine passed. I think it would be more so to not to. The person that replaces him no doubt would be one that he selected and trained to do so. It's his legacy to see his art and school live on past his time and he would want you to continue.

Now as to rank. I feel it's important, not for the sake of the belt itself or the color, I can buy any I want online through any MA supply company. But as a reminder of where you've been and where you want your journey to take you, it's very valuable. Past ranks are snapshots of your past and what it took you to get where you are. Future ranks are what you aspire to. People are goal oriented, the belts serve as a gauging point if they are truely earned and only the one wearing the rank can tell if it was truely earned. Be proud of it but not obssessed by it. And use it to help others of a lower rank, that too is part of the legacy your instructor would want to leave behind.

[pgsmith]

Would I ever accept a promotion from anyone again? I came to the conclusion that I would not. The reason being is that it is not the paper but your knowledge and in some way i would feel I am betraying him.
I think that if this is the way you feel, and the way that the art you are practicing believes, then that is fine for you. In the arts that I practice, rank is not so much an indicator of ability, as it is an indicator of responsibility. In the traditional Japanese arts, if you work hard for many years and take the appropriate steps, you will gain the appropriate ranks, and will be expected to assume the appropriate responsibilities. I know many that have not advanced in rank. They are highly skilled but, for various reasons, were not able to assume the added responsibilities of higher rank. Therefore, they did not attempt to gain higher rank.

Every art, and every branch of said arts, is different in their approach and outlook. It is pretty much impossible to think that a single way of thinking can apply across all the arts. Of course, that's what makes it a good topic of conversation in my opinion! :)

[cali_tkdbruin]

In the MAs I grew up a Taekwondo practitioner in the TKD world. I admit, yeah, I was a rank chaser when I was in the color belt ranks. I hated being a lowly 9th gup white belt. Since I reached the black belt ranks, it's not that important anymore. I'll keep training for as long as I'm able, and if the powers that be allow me to advance further up the dan ranks so much the better. In any event, I'll keep training from now on because I enjoy this stuff so much.

[Kacey]

Rank is important as an indicator of knowledge - it allows others to have some idea of what a particular person knows. Higher rank indicates that someone has stayed active in their MA long enough to gain greater knowledge and experience. For color belts, rank is important as a motivator; for black belts, that should not, IMHO, still be the case.

I was at a seminar with GM Walter Lang, the senior member of our association, yesterday, and someone asked him if becoming a IX Dan had been a goal; his answer was that, while he felt he had earned it, after 40+ years of active training and instructing, it was not a rank he had ever aspired to. On the contrary, he discussed the sense of concern any conscientious practitioner feels when s/he achieve a higher rank, and the responsibility that comes with such rank - to other practitioners, who have expectations of a certain level of ability and knowledge from a particular rank, and to non-practitioners, who often judge the validity of an art by the competence of its senior members.

Everything he said on this subject resonated within me, and I realized why I had been so nervous when accepting my IV Dan - in Ch'ang H'on TKD, IV-VI Dan is "expert" rank, and being considered an expert - even after 18 years - was somewhat concerning.

I realize this is somewhat rambling; I'm still working through the implications and ramifications of some of what GM Lang said, and the effect it had on me.

[terryl965]

Rank is as important as everything one want to put into it for some it is the end all, for other like me it means I'm one step closer to perfection which in itself is a never ending journey. So to answer your question it means that I have study and know a little about something and need to learn alot nmore of everything else.

[megat]

some MA like tkd and karate , u can only train certain kata or form in certain rank right, so in that sense it is important. but MA is about personal growth so if u think u are satisfied dun care about rank man.

[terryl965]

some MA like tkd and karate , u can only train certain kata or form in certain rank right, so in that sense it is important. but MA is about personal growth so if u think u are satisfied dun care about rank man.

Dear Sir if you are referring to me and TKD I train in seven different set of Poomsae or Kata plus I train in another4 set from Karate, training poomsae or kata is only a small aspect of one journey, so like any type of ma we have a core but that does not mean you cannot cross train in other styles.

[tshadowchaser]

I guess that rank lets a person know that the instructor feels that they are learning and a person can judge how much they have learned in comparison to the rest of the class/school/system by their rank. Outside of the mentioned school, etc. it is only an indication of what might be know by the person.
I have studied a few arts in my day and have accepted some ranking a few systems. I did so because I felt I had put in the time, effort, sweat, and some times blood to wear those ranks within those systems. I have also been gifted/awarded rank within the organization I was in for 30+ years by my instructor because of my knowledge and willingness to pass on that knowledge.



Most of the time if asked my rank I will answere student

[qi-tah]

I was at a seminar with GM Walter Lang, the senior member of our association, yesterday, and someone asked him if becoming a IX Dan had been a goal; his answer was that, while he felt he had earned it, after 40+ years of active training and instructing, it was not a rank he had ever aspired to. On the contrary, he discussed the sense of concern any conscientious practitioner feels when s/he achieve a higher rank, and the responsibility that comes with such rank - to other practitioners, who have expectations of a certain level of ability and knowledge from a particular rank, and to non-practitioners, who often judge the validity of an art by the competence of its senior members.

Everything he said on this subject resonated within me, and I realized why I had been so nervous when accepting my IV Dan - in Ch'ang H'on TKD, IV-VI Dan is "expert" rank, and being considered an expert - even after 18 years - was somewhat concerning.


This really resonates with me also... the ranks our school has are few (only 4 different grading levels) and the meaning of those ranks fairly ambiguous, so what passing a grading means to me exists mainly in my own goals for my progress. If i can't clearly articulate those goals for that level, then i personally don't feel ready to grade, no matter what anyone else thinks. I've heard other ppl say that you should trust yr teacher as to when you should grade, but i wouldn't if i didn't feel ready in myself to take that step.

But in the end, grading is just one day (for our school, anyway!) in a lifetime of learning. There must come a time for all of us when we abandon our markers and set sail on the wide, featureless sea... i guess that's the art in all MA's. :asian:

[chinto01]

I have seen in a few posts where rank is supposed to be an indication of the students knowledge. What was done in the old days when belts were not worn? What about some of these high ranking "masters" who only know a fraction of what their students who have left them now know?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[kidswarrior]

Rank as a concept is utterly unimportant. Especially when you get up in the middle to high black ranks...it's not even a reliable indicator of skill anymore.
Very true. Have seen this firsthand.


As a method for setting and achieving goals, though, it's tops. Any system that includes well defined, subdivided goals is ultimately a good system -- it's part of why martial arts builds confidence and power. Yes, so a great teaching tool--kinda like grades in school. Wouldn't give a first grader 12th grade material, etc. But someone who's built knowledge and confidence at each grade level will be ready for the next level (theoretically, anyway :)).


I still look to my next rank when setting life goals. It's a way of staying on track.
Yes, a great self-motivator and measuring rod as well. Only has meaning for the individual, which I like.

[IcemanSK]

A good friend of mine is a 7th Dan & has trained in his art for more than 40 years. He runs class with a degree of decorum, but is not the most strick instructor I've met by any means. He is fond of saying, "we have rank in class so that we can get things done." While I'm not sure I agree completely, it certainly rings true in many respects.

Few MA programs are groups of folks sharing ideas with everyone being equal at every moment.

These are my thoughts on it for now. I'll add more later.

[Brandon Fisher]

When your sensei passes I would imagine he would want you to continue your training and furthering your education. I would think that who ever is his successor would be the one to promote you in the future. In that case I would not turn it down if offered.

[NanFeiShen]

I think rank is quite important from a junior level perspective, (up to about 5 years), it gives the newer students a sense of achievement and a goal to strive towards.
At senior levels, i dont really think it is that important, as your fellow students/instructors know you well enough, and know your level of expertise.
The school i belonged to, we had grading up to junior instructor level (+ - 10 years) after that for me to attain the title of Sifu, was 10 years of teaching experience. My collegues and peers know my rank, so do my teachers and students.
Every now and again when i wear my sash, my students say:
"hey Sifu ,Why the sash?"
my reply:
"It keeps my pants up, and my belly in" :)

[kidswarrior]

I think rank is quite important from a junior level perspective, (up to about 5 years), it gives the newer students a sense of achievement and a goal to strive towards.
At senior levels, i dont really think it is that important....
I agree. The only thing I would add is that for those of us who teach those in the first five years or so, wearing a belt/sash that clearly shows our rank promotes another level of goal-setting for the students. In other words, their next belts and those of their classmates are immediate to mid-range goals; my belt gives them a picture of a longer-range goal, and the fact that they know someone who has achieved it. My belt illustrates something to keep the dream alive when the guy they work out with every day, who is within a couple of levels of them, loses his charm--and maybe his belt loses its shine in the process :).

[americanarnisador]

HI all,
This is my first response to a post. Good question!
The only place you wear your belt is in the dojo and it helps to give order.
That is the place that piece of cloth means something.
Your own personal ability and responsibility you carry and display always.
Until just this last weekend 1998 was the last time I tested. Degrees were
unimportant to me because the MA were a personal path to discovery for me.
Now I am opening my own school and hope to guide others down their own path of discovery. It used to be BB was enough now it seems what degree are you. Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.
(Rich P nice to have worked with you this weekend)
George Harris

[Drac]

Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.


Well said...

[Rich Parsons]

HI all,
This is my first response to a post. Good question!
The only place you wear your belt is in the dojo and it helps to give order.
That is the place that piece of cloth means something.
Your own personal ability and responsibility you carry and display always.
Until just this last weekend 1998 was the last time I tested. Degrees were
unimportant to me because the MA were a personal path to discovery for me.
Now I am opening my own school and hope to guide others down their own path of discovery. It used to be BB was enough now it seems what degree are you. Remember the degree MAYhelp you get students in but your ability to teach them will keep or drive them away.
(Rich P nice to have worked with you this weekend)
George Harris

George,

It was good to work with you as well. Enjoy and hopefully we will have teh pleasure in the future.

Thanks

[Eternal White Belt]

I was talking about this with a fellow eclectic martial artist the other day. Neither one of us has a high rank in any formal style, although we both have trained in several styles to varying degrees, as well as on our own and with small groups of others interested in martial training. I think his highest formal rank is as an orange belt in TKD, although he has trained in martial arts for over 30 years. My highest formal rank is as a blue belt in kenpo karate, although I have trained in martial arts for 24 years.
As such, I have been to many schools and seen many black belts who were completely incompetent, as well as lower ranking students who were more competent than the instructors. My experience and observations lead me to the conclusion that it is competence that matters. Not rank.
A colored strip of cloth is no gage of competence, nor is a certificate with a gold foil stamp in the corner. If you demonstrate competence, people will train with you. Regardless of "rank".

[Shaderon]

To me my belt/rank matters only to myself and to my instructor. To myself as it's a milestone for me in my learning, it reminds me what I should know to and have been taught to get there, and it gives me my next level of learning. To my instructor as a visual reminder of what he's teaching me and what I should already know. To everyone else it matters little, except where we line up at the beginning and end of class and for sparring it gives a little indication of probable ability in your opponant.

Like Kidswarrior said though, my instructors rank is important to me so I know someone who's acheived that high goal, I can measure his ability against mine and know what I have to acheive to get that far.

I have been in a situation where we had no colour belt ranks, and it was a real mix up for me, I didn't like it at all, I had no mini goals and didn't know if the material I was doing at the time was things I was supposed to already know or if it was above my current abilities. I guess it's belt ranks for me, I just prefer those visible stages of growth.