Hi,
I'm new to Modern Arnis, and am very confused -- I hope someone can help me! I have no idea what a Master of Tapi Tapi is, or a Datu. Are these some form of rank?

Jade

Originally posted by Jade
I'm new to Modern Arnis, and am very confused -- I hope someone can help me! I have no idea what a Master of Tapi Tapi is, or a Datu. Are these some form of rank?


No, they are titles that are "above and beyond" rank, sort of like the titles hanshi, kyoshi, etc. that are used in Japanese arts. Generally speaking, a black belt (lakan or dayang) is also a Guro (teacher); some will, as an additional honor, be given the higher title Punong Guro (typically fourth degree black belts or higher), Master of Tapi Tapi (recently introduced; all holders, I believe, are fifth degree black belts), or Datu (typically sixth degree black belt or higher). The title Datu loosely translates as chieftain. Datu Tim Hartman posts here as well as an anonymous Master of Tapi Tapi, if I understand correctly. Either may be able to give a more complete answer than I.

Again, these honorifics are separate from rank and are given infrequently. I believe there are only two people in the U.S. who hold the title Datu (Mr. Hartman and Mr. Kelly Worden)--surely Mr. Hartman will correct me if I am mistaken.

No MOTT Are on Martial Talk.

Originally posted by Renegade
No MOTT Are on Martial Talk.

I stand corrected. I should also have mentioned the Professor's son, Mr. Demetrio Presas, who is a Punong Guro:
http://www.modernarnis.com/Punong_Guros.htm
Mr. Presas posts here as DPRESAS.

And whatever you do, don't get MOTT confused with the applesauce manufacturer, as in Mott's applesauce. Very bad. Very very bad.

Cthulhu
couldn't resist

So, I guess another valid question in addition to the Q's I asked orginally, is what's the difference between a MOTT and a Datu? Thanks guys, for all replies.:wink:
Jade

Originally posted by Jade
So, I guess another valid question in addition to the Q's I asked orginally, is what's the difference between a MOTT and a Datu? Thanks guys, for all replies.

The MOTT title was created quite recently by the late Professor Presas. The title datu is an older Filipino term for "chieftain" that has been used in Modern Arnis for a longer period of time.

I believe that there are (slightly) fewer datus than MOTTs and that the datus are typically of a higher rank than the MOTTs; on the other hand, the MOTTs were chosen as officers of the IMAF. I do not believe that there was ever a clear and complete explanation of the rules governing the granting of any of these titles, especially the new and non-traditional title Master of Tapi-Tapi. There is probably no satisfactory answer to your question as the MOTT title was created and bestowed after the Professor fell ill.

I trust as usual that Mr. Hartman or Mao will correct me if I have made a mistatement above. I believe I count four or five datus world-wide--is that correct?

I will tell what I know about the title of Datu at the moment. I'm gathering some facts on MOTTs, and I want to present it only once.

Datu
Chieftain, Leader, or Warlord are the ways that it has been decribed to me in the Filipino culture. I have talked to several Masters & Grandmasters of Filipino heritage. It has also been referred to as a Spiritual Leader. Any one you chose, it has a significant meaning in their culture.

Who are the Datus in Modern Arnis?
Shishiar Inacallo-Canada
Kelly Worden-USA
Ric Jornales-USA
David Hoffman-USA currently UK
Dieter Knuttel-Germany
Tim Hartman (myself)-USA

Who was active in Modern Arnis?
In North America only myself. I can't say either way about the Europeans, because I don't live there and can't tell how active they are in the Modern Arnis community over there. Before everyone goes crazy let me define my use of the word Active. This means actively participating in the federation seminars and camps. Either for improving their own skills or teaching and assisting the Professor. I've been in the art since the early 80's and the only North American based Datu that I've met on the circut was Ric Jornales and he hasn't been active with Remy in over eight years.

Modern Arnis is a USA based organization. I can understand not seeing much of the Europeans but, I should have seen the Americans and Canadian!

Datus in Modern Arnis
As Remy decribed to me on several occasions, Datu is a leadership title in the original IMAF. One of the main reasons that Remy bestowed the title on me was the fact that I chose to lead by example. When it came time to get promoted I would insist on testing in front of everyone. I was not afraid of being seen by our community. I thought, and still do think, that too much rank was given out for political reasons and not for technical ones. In 1999 Remy offered my the title. I turned it down because, at that time, I didn't feel that I was ready for it. The following year I was offered it again and accepted it. Talking to many of the East Coast Modern Arnis people, they feel that only one title supercedes Datu and that was Grandmaster.

Datu vs Rank
The title is separate from rank. When I was first offered it, I was only a fifth. Remy thought that leadership ability had nothing to do with what they wear on their waist. This is why I was put in charge of the Can-Am charpter of the IMAF while he was alive. At the time, there were several active memebers who out ranked me but he still chose to put me in charge of that and several other projects of his. The same went for Punong-Guro; rank was separate from that also. It means teacher of teachers. I was also the only one in the IMAF that I know of that Remy bestowed that title on.

How does it compare to MOTT
I'm not ready to discuss that at this moment but I will say this. I still consider all seven of them my juniors!


:asian:

With the Professor gone will there be any more Datus or MOTTS?
If so,who would test and promote them?

Can a Datu promote someone to a MOTT,and can anybody promote a MOTT to a Datu, or is rank at these levels frozen?

I believe everyone should have a chance for advancement if they deserve it, but who would do the honors?:shrug:

Originally posted by bloodwood
With the Professor gone will there be any more Datus or MOTTS?
If so,who would test and promote them?

Can a Datu promote someone to a MOTT,and can anybody promote a MOTT to a Datu, or is rank at these levels frozen?


All good questions and all ones for which there are no clear answers at the moment. Have Dr. Schea or Mr. Delaney spoken publicly about this? Can or will either of them promote above the rank they themselves hold (fifth degree in each case)? Can or will they serve as a "font of honours" so to speak? As grandmasters, if one accepts that, I would assume they have the authority to grant the titles but granting rank above theirs is still iffy. I believe the classical Japanese systems have procedures in place for such circumstances--say, when a low-ranking black belt inherits his father's art. The person heads the system formally but tests for increasingly higher rank according to accepted procedures. I do not know a great deal about how this is actually done.

I assume that Dr. Presas grants rank for MARPPIO; can anyone speak to this? It isn't perfectly clear to me that they are using a colored belt system--the pictures don't seem to show them wearing belts and the individuals on their web site are principally identified by titles (senior master guro, etc.). I do not see a term like 4th degree black belt or lakan apat lsited for any of them.


I believe everyone should have a chance for advancement if they deserve it, but who would do the honors?

I agree that this issue is important for the future of the art. We might all agree that rank shouldn't matter but for the art to spread I think it does--aren't even the Jeet Kune Do systems starting to adopt ranking procedures? Everyone adopts the colored belts system sooner or later. It's a quite successful meme, frankly.

It won't be long before we see members of the rival IMAFs, and other organizations, arguing that members of the other organizations do not hold "real" rank. This will be ugly.

Originally posted by Renegade
How does it compare to MOTT
I'm not ready to discuss that at this moment but I will say this. I still consider all seven of them my juniors![/B]

I believe this is true not only in rank but also in time studying the art--you began circa 1983, no? Perhaps a year or two earlier? Since you were offered the rank of 7th degree black belt you would have out-ranked them by two degrees.

Since Modern Arnis has a 0th degree black belt (lakan) that is not a temporary or probationary belt as is sometimes see in other systems, Mr. Hartman's 6th degree black belt is comparable to a 7th degree black belt in systems that use a more conventional shodan, nidan, ..., system. Similarly for other Modern Arnis black belts.

Thanks for this informative post.

Out of curiosity, what rank does Datu Worden hold in Modern Arnis? I take it Renegade doesn't list him as active since he's doing his 'Renegade' JKD thing?

Cthulhu

Cthulu,
that is a good question. I have no clue what rank if any in Modern Arnis that he has. I've seen his tapes and have had phone conversations with him. From what I see he is a talented martial artist. When I ask the Modern Arnis people they say he is a JKD person. When you talk to the JKD people they say he's a Modern Arnis person. The material I've seen on the tapes that I have access to does not give me the impression of Modern Arnis. Instead I think of the JKD Kali program. There is no question on his ability, I'm just not sure what the root art is.

:asian:

Renegade,

I've always thought of Worden as a JKD man myself, particularly from Inosanto's lineage, with the influence of FMA. That being said, who gave him the 'datu' title? Could the 'datu' title be from some other FMA or FMA instructor?

Cthulhu

No. It came direct from Remy himself. This was about 12-14years ago.

Interesting. This would leave me to believe that he holds some ranking in Modern Arnis, yes? This is coming from someone who has no facts, just observation, but it seems to me that Worden is using the title bestowed on him, but isn't sticking with the Modern Arnis material. His perogative, I guess. At least he got the title legitimately.

Cthulhu

He may not have had rank. Datu Ric Jornales was awarded the title without having any rank! This was in the mid 80's. Remy was trying to groom him as a possible candidate to be his replacment when the time was right to retire. Unfortuantly Ric had a crisis in his family which took him out of the picture for many years. Arnisador can confirm his activity in the group.

Ric showed up at the 2000 Michigan Summer Camp and most of the soon to be MOTTs came running up to me to ask me if I knew who the guy was. I replied "Datu Jornales".

This is at least one case were Remy awarded the title to some one who didn't have rank. In Ric's case when he was active in the IMAF the people around could see that he was being trained for a purpose.

Since none of us were around Worden at the time of the promotion of Datu we can't say why it was given and what the standards were at the time.

So rank of any sort doesn't matter, eh? I guess the only way to find out what happened is to ask Worden himself.

Cthulhu
bein' nosey again

I think that the title was give to different people for different reasons. I would say if you want to know about rank, ask to see their Diplomas. This goes for ALL Modern Arnis people. A lot of people will be claiming many things. If it's not on paper then I would question it. I also think that goes for all systems.

:asian:

Re: diplomas

Okinawa-te doesn't give out certificates for black belt. The belt itself is seen as the 'certificate'. However, we are given certificates for all the ranks leading up to black belt.

I've always thought this could lead to trouble if someone asked me for some type of paper proving my rank. I can see how my saying, "Well, we don't get black belt certificates," could make some people skeptical. Haven't had to worry about it yet, though, so no sense in worrying about it at all, until it happens (if ever).

Anyway, to steer this beast back on course...

It's good that it's a simple matter to ask a Modern Arnis practitioner for a diploma. I'm sure some people may be somewhat insulted if somebody asks them for proof of their rank, but that should be expected to happen once in a while.

Cthulhu
babbling

Originally posted by Renegade
He may not have had rank. Datu Ric Jornales was awarded the title without having any rank! This was in the mid 80's. Remy was trying to groom him as a possible candidate to be his replacment when the time was right to retire. Unfortuantly Ric had a crisis in his family which took him out of the picture for many years. Arnisador can confirm his activity in the group.


Indeed. Ric "Bong Sun" Jornales (sp?) is one of the nicest people I've ever met in the martial arts. We met him several times in Michigan that I recall. He would put on weapons demonstrations with a great many weapons, laid out in a row. He had his own style, then called Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (now shortened to Arnis Sikaran?). He usually brought some of his students who were quite serious and quite good. I remember in particular him teaching Mr. Hartman and me the staff once after regular camp hours. (Speaking of after regular camp hours, Mr. Jornales also liked to go out dancing.) The Professor treated him like a son and made his affection and respect for him publicly known--the Professor often had his arm around Mr. Jornales and spoke glowingly of him.

I say again that Mr. Jornales is one of the nicest people I've ever met while doing the martial arts, and I've met many nice people in the arts. He would give you the shirt off his back. He's simply a great guy.

Let me change the direction of this a bit. On a note somewhat related to this whole topic (rank and titles), from:
http://www.islanderskarate.com/ModernArnisSeminars.asp
(which is apparently fairly up-to-date) we have the line:
Ken Smith has studied Modern Arnis for the past eight years.

This seems a short time for someone to become a 5th degree black belt, Master of Tapi Tapi, and achieve master level (I am unsure what the relationship is between Master of Tapi-Tapi and master, but I believe the latter may be connected with achieving the rank of lakan lima whether or not one is not a MOTT), even if one had previous martial arts experience.

Most if not all the MOTTs make the claim that they have traveled extensively with the Professor, as does Mr. Delaney. I must wonder if this is, at least in some cases, an exaggeration of the truth--that they went to many seminars and camps at which the Professor taught but were not traveling and training with him. It is hard to imagine how so many people could be traveling and training with him seemingly at once. I have to suspect that someone is exaggerating.

You are correct Arnisador. Most of the MA (Modern Arnis) people would attend seminars, not travel with Remy. There were three exceptions to this.

1. Tim Hartman(myself)
2. Chuck Gauss
3. Jeff Delaney

For many years starting in the mid to late 80's Remy would use me as his primary demonstration partner. It was common for Remy to call out "Where is Tim?" when it was time for some one to get cracked. Remy let me go to the seminars & camps free. I hadn't paid to attend in over 8 years. There were a couple occasions were the hosts were obstinate and insisted on charging, but if I paid for 4 events in the last five years that would be a lot.

Chuck Gauss came on the scene in the early 90's. Remy like Chuck and the two of us would share the beatings. For a while you would run into Chuck, myself or both of us at most seminars in North America. Chuck and I would laugh at each other while Remy would lay the smack down. I gave us the nickname of the "Pinata Brothers".

Jeff Delaney was very visable for the last year and a half. He was the last to manage Remy's website and would have a lot of contact with him.

For the last 2-3 years Chuck and I would attend less seminars and more camps. We both had our own seminar series to help spread the art. This made it harder for us to attend weekly seminars. We still made the rounds just not as much. I can't speak for Chuck, but in 2000 alone I assisted at 7 camps and 4 seminars. I also taught 10 of my own seminars and 2 camps.

Since Arnisador brought up Ken Smith's claim I will say something about it. Ken would go to several camps a year, but when it came to seminars he would only attend the ones near home. Mao himself quoted Ken to me saying "Remy comes to Chicago enough in a year I don't need to follow him around". Remy would go to the Chicago area 3-4 times a year. In this case I would say that there was a lot of exaggertion in the statment that he made. He is not the first nor the last to make things sound larger then they are.

:asian:

As distasteful as I think it is, I must clarify something. What was said to me was "people in Chicago don't travel to seminars too much because they don't have to, The Professor is here all the time." This having been said, I have seen all the MOTT's as well as Renegade move, with and without canes. As far as Chuck, Ken, Dr. Shea and Tim are concerned, I consider them all very talented. I think that the best way to formulate an opinion is to be as informed as you can be. Go see them all. Go to a camp where they'll be and look at them. Train with them. Cross sticks with them. Go empty hand with them. Check them out. Then come and see me. You'll see that I'm the best technician/teacher hands down. :D Humor aside (is it really humor?:) ) Don't go by what you hear. Go see for yourself.

Also, if we're going to be so open and honest, I think that Tim will be the first to admit that he has an issue with Ken. Tim is human (I use the term loosely) and I think that his issue with Ken, at times, colors his views and opinion of him. Even so, they are both talented.

Originally posted by Mao
Also, if we're going to be so open and honest, I think that Tim will be the first to admit that he has an issue with Ken.

More than Mr. Smith in particular I meant to say that not all of the people who are claiming to have "traveled and trained extensively with the Professor" (as so many claim) could really have been doing so. It just doesn't add up. I absolutely agree that crossing sticks with these people is the best way to form an opinion but I must repeat that 8 years seems like a short time to go from "just started Modern Arnis" to "Master of Tapi-Tapi/master of Modern Arnis", even if one had prior martial arts experience--wouldn't you find it suspicious if you learned that someone could go from beginner in an art to master of it in such a short time? Do you really think you for example could pick up a new art and master it in such a short time? I don't believe that I could. I do mean suspicious of the art here, by the way--the Professor gave out rank like candy, as I've said before. I am prepared to believe that Mr. Smith is talented and skilled but I don't think such a rapid rise reflects well on the art as a whole.

For the record I never said nor meant to imply that Ken is a hack. Even though we don't see eye to eye, I still think that he is talented. That being said, the point Arnisador was making was how some of the MOTTs may being exaggerating how they would travel with Remy. The example used was Kenny's site. As talented as Kenny may be the only time you would see him out of Chicago was at a Camp.

Ken's site says "He has traveled with Professor Presas around the country training with the Grandmaster." This says traveled with. Not many people traveled with Remy, and as much as I dislike Delaney I have to give him credit for doing such.

:asian: :soapbox:

I get your meaning. I agree that there are many who have not really earned their rank. Then again, how do you define earned. Suppose that someone does much to promote the art. There are other styles that have been around much longer in which after a certain level the requirements are to attend a certain # of seminars and log a certain # of hours teaching.
And as for me taking up another art and mastering it in a short time............................of course I could!! :D After all, I am the Great and Powerful. :eek:

Long Live King Mao the Mighty!

:asian: :rofl:

Maybe I'm a little Old School, but the years in issue is valid. If Kenny was doing Modern Arnis ONLY and was training with Remy on a regular basis (more than a couple times a year) I would be able to accept it. This is providing that Kenny would be training like a mad man. Modern Arnis was or still is his secondary art. He does Isshinryu Karate as his primary art. Maybe he is in the process of switching over to do it as a primary style but that takes a while.

You can a the man out of karate, but you can't take the Karate out of the man.

The term training with is getting a little ambigious. If someone travels on the same flight, to the same place, to do the same thing, and stays at the same hotels, is that not traveling with someone? I think so. I do not think that Ken should be nor do I think that he desrerves to be cast in a bad light. Sh-t, I traveled with Remy. I trained in the same hotel room with him. We ate at the same restaurants, alone. If I met John Q. at the airport, went to the same destination, did the same thing, stayed in the same hotel, I would say that we traveled together. Ken is where Remy put him. Who are we to question his motives now, posthumously I might add. Renegade is where Remy wanted him. With his blessing. But He is not Remy's blood relative. He and Remy argued. Remy was mad at him. Remy refered to him as a "little child". This may sound a little harsh but I am only playing devils advocate here. Tim still had Remy's blessing to do what he is doing. I don't question that. Tim should not be cast in a bad light either. If you want details, one could go to islanderskarate.com and ask Ken. Just like one could ask Tim for his opinion or answer. I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.

:soapbox:

Originally posted by Renegade
Maybe I'm a little Old School, but the years in issue is valid.

As Mr. Hartman is aware, I am very old school on this--very conservative--and I do think that this issue is valid. In my opinion it should take about 10 years to become a fully qualified instructor as a rule, though Modern Arnis has always advanced people more rapidly and, like BJJ, encouraged people to teach even before they became black belts.

Mao is quite right in asking what "earned" really means of course. I certainly don't think that one rule fits all arts.

Is it still so, I wonder, that Modern Arnis encourages people to teach prior to their becoming black belts? Do the IMAFs encourage people to teach even if they are not yet black belts? I would read Mr. Delaney's site as discouraging it but it is not perfectly clear. Do either of the IMAFs give out Basic Instructor certificates as the Professor's IMAF used to do?

Originally posted by Mao
The term training with is getting a little ambigious.

Perhaps, but I think that there's a connotation to it that is not ambiguous--the Professor's intention to have a person with him for the purposes of training that person, as opposed to "merely" traveling and staying together. It is a semantics issue, but looking at http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml I see this claim made, in about the same words, by Dr. Schea, Mr. Ladis, Mr. Gauss, and Mr. Smith, and we know the same claim has been made by Mr. Delaney and Mr. hartman (and I am unclear, Mao, if you meant to make that claim for yourself or merely to indicate the ambiguity). That's a heck of an entourage--it just doesn't add up. Again, this is not about Mr. Smith or any one individual on the above list; it's about the plausibility of all them having "trained and traveled extensively with Professor Remy Presas since 1990" to quote from the description under Mr. Ladis' name. It's too many people to have been doing that to an extent that a modest person would find worth advertising (dare I say trumpeting). I don't know who isn't telling it quite straight but I do not believe that they all are telling the whole unblemished truth. Again, it just doesn't add up.


Ken is where Remy put him. Who are we to question his motives now, posthumously I might add.


I must agree, but in measure. This was the Professor's choice. But we might also remember that many of these choices were made after his surgery and during his long illness and so we may be justified in questioning them to a certain extent. But i fundamentally agree with you--we should try to respect the Professor's wishes, and the MOTTs represented his vision of the future of the IMAF.


Renegade is where Remy wanted him. With his blessing. But He is not Remy's blood relative. He and Remy argued. Remy was mad at him. Remy refered to him as a "little child".

Yes, this was a difficult situation. Given that the Professor wanted to promote him to 7th degree it's hard to know how things would have turned out had he accepted that. The MOTTs may have been Plan B in that regard--I do not know.


I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.


I regret that his name continues to come up in this regard. I meant the aggregrate--not all of the claims can be accurate in my opinion. I cannot say whose claims are fully correct and whose aren't of course.

Mao,
Ken was just the example we referred to, nothing was meant as a personal attack. I'm blunt, to say the least, when it comes to my opinions. At times I've been referred to as a prick. So I'll go to Jim Ladis' claims."trained and traveled extensively with Professor Remy Presas since 1990" What is trained extensive? Once a year, month, week?

I would think that it would be safe to say that I have trained with Remy more than anyone else in the IMAF. When I was starting out, he would come to Buffalo at least four times a year. His office was here for several years. He was also dating a woman here. It was almost a monthly occurence to see Remy in Buffalo. Even if Remy never came to Buffalo, I would see him a lot on the road. I've been in the art over twenty years seeing him on the road. With all that time logged in, I still wouldn't say that I've trained with him extensively.

As you know, I've been training with GM Buot for over a year now. I go there once a month. I do private lessons with him, three hours each visit. I would say that this training is more time than anyone in the IMAF would get with Remy in several years. I still don't consider it extensive. It's only 36 hours a year. My average student would get over 100 hours logged in my school.

Much of the Modern Arnis seminars are review. Remy would have the Black Belts walk around the room and help teach. If you were lucky, he would drag you a side for a minute or two and work with you. This was common at most of the seminars for the last few years. Keeping this in mind, what definition of the word "extensive" is being used?

Mao wrote
I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.
I'm not attacking Ken, but if he is not a member of this forum that is by his choice. When I helped Kaith with getting members on this site I sent out over 1500 e-mails to promote it. Ken was part of that list. I would also think, but may be wrong in thinking that you may have told the IMAFers by now about it. If he wants to put his 2 cents in, let him.

I want to close with that being blunt and direct doesn't mean it's a personal attack. I just don't like mixing words. This sometimes gets misinterpreted as being an attack.


:asian: :soapbox: :uhoh:

It is 12:30 a.m. and I am tired. I am not a beginner to modern arnis or martial arts in general. Of cource it should take more than 4,5,6, years or whatever to become a "master". I don't like the term anyway. No, arnisador, I was not including myself. Yes, some things should be questioned. Is Renegades offer, allegedly by Remy to be a 7th degree on paper? Is his alleged offer to be the succesor on paper? If not then Renegade believes that he should be under scrutiny. But why should he be if many people had seen him, over time, move, train and teach. I have seen him do these things. I have also seen Ken do these things. I wouldn't snipe at either of them. Perhaps Ken is not on this site because he doesn't want to argue. Perhaps he has better things to do. I don't know. I am getting a little tired of "taking up the cross" on this issue. People will think what they will and do what they will. I have remained in contact with Kelly Worden. We are friends and I can speak to some issues concerning him, with his knowledge......because I asked for details. One could do the same with Ken. I'm sure that many have heard the prayer "God grant me the serenity.....". Well, I think that I have the wisdom to know the difference in this case. How can this issue be solved? Can it be? I have faith in those with whom I assiciate. This includes Ken, Dr. Shea, Chuck and even Renegade among others.

Just a few comments:

on the membership here : Everyone is welcome, provided they can behave in a reasonably civilized manner. To the best of my knowledge, invitations to take a look at this forum went out to over 2000+ individuals. Postings were done on RMA, and several other forums. Many of you have linked your sites to us. We get a LOT! of traffic (down a bit this month due to holidays). To the best of my knowledge, we have members of 3 of the 4 MA orgs here. AFAIK, none of the MOTTs are here, in a membership way. They may be lurking. JD was sent -2- invites. No reply was received. He, and every student of -any- martial art is welcome here.

on who/what/where with Remy: Many people trained with him. Now, you can define "trained extensively" in several ways.
1- saw him do a lot of seminars
2- took alot of classes he was involved with.
3-etc.

I personally define it as "Trained on a regular basis (several hours a month minimum), with serious interaction (not 2-3 min), over a period of several years. Also assisted with multiple seminars, all over the world, regularly.
If ya meet that, then I think ya qualify. :)


I've been to all parties websites. 3 outta 4 claim to be the top dog. 2 have obviously questionable comments on them. You guys in the know, who've driven the miles, and worn out the gear by the truckload...you know the truth. The rest of us, don't. We have to trust those who head our respective orgs to be honest, and truthful with us. Funny thing....you'd think we were owed that much. Because, if you can't tell us the truth about our lineage...how can we trust you to train us, and guide our martial development? The politics and game playing continue to blur the truth into a piccassoesque display.

I could go on, but I rapidly loose my train of thought....try and play nice the next few days folks...I gotta go deal with the family, and thats enough stress. :)

Peace.

:asian:

I'll vouch for his once a month classes. He swings by my city on the way and drags me to the local bar.
:shrug:

Originally posted by Renegade
What is trained extensive? Once a year, month, week?

This, and Mr. Hartman's comment that training with the Professor largely meant a few minutes stolen here or there as opposed to a couple of hours at a time on a regular basis, goes to the heart of my objection to the use of the "traveled and trained extensively" claims. If Mr. Ladis (say) has been doing this since 1990 then I am surprised that I have not seen him more often. I have made no camps in the past couple of years but made many in the early 1990s and have continued to attend the seminars.

I've been in the art over twenty years seeing him on the road.

Mr. Hartman, is this statement strictly correct? I remember you starting sometime in 1981-1983 but I don't recall exactly when it was. You demonstrated some techniques for me well before I began studying under you seriously which was not later than the summer of 1987.


Much of the Modern Arnis seminars are review. Remy would have the Black Belts walk around the room and help teach. If you were lucky, he would drag you a side for a minute or two and work with you. This was common at most of the seminars for the last few years.

This has been my experience, but I am ware that some people did have the chance to train with him outside of a camp or seminar situation. It has always been my understanding that these were brief and irregular sessions that would not constitute "extensive training", e.g., the occasional impromptu hotel room session as mentioned by Mao.

I don't believe that all those people travled and trained extensively with the Professor under any but the most forgiving interpretation of those terms. I think it's hyperbolic language and to those who have had the experiences to which Mr. Hartman refers--seeing how the Professor truly "trained" people--it rings hollow. Frankly, extensive training wasn't something I ever saw the Professor does--directing Mr. Hartman to Mr. Buot was probably the closest he ever came to that.

It's not my intention to suggest that Mao should defend anyone who isn't here, in case that isn't clear. I am continuing to study the two IMAFs and MARPPIO. These exaggerated claims do not improve the standing of the IMAF, Inc. in my eyes.

I feel the draw to defend not only "someone who isn't here" but the IMAF,inc. in general considering I am on the board. I do not take my affiliations lightly. I have tremendous respect for Dr. Shea even beyond the martial arts arena. There are more than a couple of org's. that tout certain training that is perhaps a little embelished. There are those who claim to have been 'training in " bando who in reality have only been to a few seminars. I would call that "dabbling" in at best. Dr. Gyi himself has been under fire recently. He brought bando the U.S. for crying out loud! Why is he under fire? For embelishing his military history. Does this negate his martial talent? I would say not. Renegade would agree, I believe. People train with him in spite of this. Why? Because he has so much to offer. Again we must go see in order to make an informed decision. We must be careful to not take every word as gospel. Arnisador questions Renegades "over 20 years" comment". If you look at it carefully you may find that he said "in the art...", he did not sayI]specifically[/I] modern arnis. It could be that he has been into FMA for that long but not necessarily modern arnis specifically. Does this nagate his ability? Is this the sort of hair splitting we should be doing? :confused:

Originally posted by Mao
Arnisador questions Renegades "over 20 years" comment". If you look at it carefully you may find that he said "in the art...", he did not sayI]specifically[/I] modern arnis. It could be that he has been into FMA for that long but not necessarily modern arnis specifically.

Mr. Hartman was not studying any martial art prior to Modern Arnis, at least not in any formal sense. He began about 20 years ago but I don't recall exactly when.


Does this nagate his ability?


Actually, I was questioning his ability in mathematics.

:) Well, I don't question his mathematics, or his spelling.........they both su-k. Hee hee
It occurs to me that Renegade told me once that he was a student of Mr. Jornales first. I'm sure that he won't hesitate to speak if he remembers it differently. Izint that rite Regenade?

Originally posted by Mao
It occurs to me that Renegade told me once that he was a student of Mr. Jornales first. I'm sure that he won't hesitate to speak if he remembers it differently. Izint that rite Regenade?

Unless I am much mistaken, Mr. Hartman's first FMA experience was at the Buffalo-area school of Mr. John Bryant, though Mr. Hartman was not there for more than a couple of years. Mr. Bryant was a Modern Arnis instructor who eventually moved to Florida. I know Mr. Hartman had met and worked with Mr. Jornales by the mid-80s. Mr. Jornales was living in Michigan however and Mr. Hartman was living in Western New York.

Mr. Hartman will of course be able to speak more authoritatively about this issue.

You're both right (I never thought I would say that). I started with John Bryant in Modern Arnis. He was on the covers of some of the earlier videos. Then sometime around 87 or 88 Arnisador and I met Jornales together. We both worked his program and Arnisador got a red belt (equal to a high brown in Modern Arnis) and I earned a Black Belt.

I don't claim that rank any more because I could not stay current with my training with him. Like I said before he had some family problems that took him out of action for a while. He had a day job and took care of his family. This left him little time to train people.

I still pratice a lot of what I learned from him, but I can't say that I would consider may rank to be current. I'm proud of my accomplishment, but I don't feel that I've logged enough mat time to claim it now.

I started Modern Arnis the fall that Arnisador went off to college. I think That was october of 81. I should've been more precise. Over 20 years could be a day, week, month, etc.

My first camp was 85 in Mississippi. It was four of us and we drove all the way. We were and still are crazy. This is were I first met Dave Hoffman.

In 87 Anrisador and trained like mad men for the first camp that was held in Michigan. We put in 5-6 days a week and average 3-5 hours each day. It was common for us to do two sessions a day.

The whole time I was training in a full time Modern Arnis School. I wasn't cross training into the art. It has always been my primary art. It was the only full time Modern Arnis school in North America and is probably one of the reasons Remy was there so often. It was also the IMAF's North America HQ for a short period of time.

Even doing Modern as a full time art from the beginning, I don't feel that I got serious with my training until about 89. This was a year after I got my first Black Belt and opened my first school and I had to start worrying about my student more than myself. Serious meaning I started taking notes and started working more on the theory. The whole time I was working the material hard and I could mimic Remy, but it took me some time to start to really understand.

That's enough for now. It's bed time. I hope everyone enjoyed their Christmas! If anyone is wondering Santa gave me a 30 pound bag of coal. Fortunately my girl friend got me a digital camera. Santa better be looking over his shoulder, because I also got a lazer sight!

:rofl: :cheers: :ladysman: :armed:

Originally posted by Renegade
I started Modern Arnis the fall that Arnisador went off to college. I think That was october of 81. I should've been more precise.

Yes, I left for college in late August 1981 and Mr. Hartman started showing me stuff when I came back home for vacations and summers. I couldn't recall if he had started in the Fall of 1981 or a bit later and so wasn't sure it was 20 years yet. In fact, that's a milestone--Congratulations!

I had been studying karate and Mr. Hartman had no formal training at that time, though he had picked up some stuff from me, some stuff from a common friend who had been taking kung fu (I am referring to Mr. Hamel), and some other stuff from a friend of his who studied kung fu (and whose name escapes me though he was an acquaintance of mine as well--I did not know him as well as Mr. Hartman did though). Mr. Hartman sought advice from me (and others I am sure) when he went to take up formal training in the martial arts and I recall recommending arnis to him because he was a.) fast, b.) interested in weapons, c.) less interested in kata/forms. I had heard just a little about the local arnis school--it must have been from Bill Adams, directly or indirectly--and knew enough from that and the martial arts magazines to know that Mr. Hartman would probably like it. I had no first-hand knowledge of the art until Mr. Hartman taught me some of what he had learned. At this point I no longer recall if I gave him his first pointer to arnis as a possible art or if he asked me what I knew of arnis after having heard about it from someone else but I do know that we discussed it before he started and I strongly encouraged him to consider it. I did not think that the Isshin-ryu Karate-do I was studying was a good fit for him though I myself enjoyed it greatly.

I recall a party Mr. Hartman and I attended--I hope he doesn't mind me recounting this story. Mr. Hartman would have been in 10th grade and I would have been in 12th grade. I wandered into a room and found three typical high school twits verbally hassling Mr. Hartman; it gave every indication of being a situation that might escalate. This was most certainly not good-natured teasing. I instructed the twits to disperse. One turned and grabbed at me. I threw him into a wall--not the nearest wall but rather across the small room--using an aikido-like technique I had picked up in an eclectic American Self-Defense school I had studied at prior to starting Isshin-ryu. I then asked if perhaps I wasn't clear when I first spoke. They dispersed. (No one was injured, just shaken.) A few years later Mr. Hartman would repay the favor by looking out for my younger brother at a party (the situation was somewhat different).


In 87 Anrisador and trained like mad men for the first camp that was held in Michigan. We put in 5-6 days a week and average 3-5 hours each day. It was common for us to do two sessions a day.


My wife still talks about this (she and I were dating at the time and Mr. Hartman and I mostly trained in the yard of her apartment). Mr. Hartman had taught me a bit here-and-there before this but 1987 is when we really got serious. I also practiced at night after he left (I knicked up some furniture swinging sticks in the house). We made quite an impression at that camp, if I must say so myself.


The whole time I was training in a full time Modern Arnis School. I wasn't cross training into the art. It has always been my primary art.

This is absolutely correct, and it is rare amongst Modern Arnis practitioners. I have always respected Mr. Hartman for this. He attempts to broaden his horizons but he is a Modern Arnis practicioner first and foremost. That's a strong show of faith in the Professor's art.

I wasn't aware of the almost unique status of Mr. Bryant's studio! I'll also echo Mr. Hartman's positive comments about Mr. Jornales--a talented martial artist and a great human being.


Even doing Modern as a full time art from the beginning, I don't feel that I got serious with my training until about 89. This was a year after I got my first Black Belt and opened my first school and I had to start worrying about my student more than myself. Serious meaning I started taking notes and started working more on the theory. The whole time I was working the material hard and I could mimic Remy, but it took me some time to start to really understand.

Mr. Hartman and I have always agreed that one must study the arts, and he certainly has. I repeat what I have said before--he has also been a great resource for others' students at camps and seminars.

I received my lakan on April 1st of 1989, making me Mr. Hartman's first black belt student. It was a nice closure after I had helped steer him toward that art in the first place!

Congratulations again on 20 years in Modern Arnis Mr. Hartman! Who would've thought, eh?

I note from http://www.kellyworden.com/ taht Mr. Worden is himself a renegade--he lists Renegade JKD as one of his arts. In fact, he uses the term Renegade quite often on his site. There is information about Mr. Worden here:
http://www.kellyworden.com/datu/DATU.HTM
http://www.kellyworden.com/articles/mavr_intervw/mavr.htm

I suspect that his use of the term Renegade precedes Mr. Hartman's use of it but I do not know if it was hung on him as it was on Mr. Hartman.

Thanks Arnisador. It was good to write this down for everyone, it made me remeber all the good time I had and friends because ot the art.

:cheers:

Originally posted by arnisador
I note from http://www.kellyworden.com/ taht Mr. Worden is himself a renegade--he lists Renegade JKD as one of his arts. In fact, he uses the term Renegade quite often on his site.

I suspect that his use of the term Renegade precedes Mr. Hartman's use of it but I do not know if it was hung on him as it was on Mr. Hartman.

First of all, Hello! I found this forum just a few days ago and figured I would register and maybe jump into some exchanges and whatnot from time to time. Forums are always a great place to exchange ideas. Even if it is just talking about certain things in your library, as there is a Forum here for that as well.

When I found this thread, I was scratching my head about some things. I thought some things harsh and perhaps others I simply did not know about.

To be straightforward, Kelly is a friend of mine. What Kelly does with regard to what he refers to as, Renegade Jeet Kune Do is his own thing. He has been recognized by one of Sifu Lee's early Students, Mr. Kimura, as carrying on a Grand Philosophy, that of delving into Self-exploration...that's what JKD was to Sifu Bruce Lee anyway, it was a vehicle that he used to get him where he wanted to go in his own, personal quest.

Jeet Kune Do, more than anything else, is a Lighthouse. It is supposed to guide you through the storm, that storm is everything around you with regard to what is done, in a Martial Context. On a practical level, Jeet Kune Do in Cantonese is, "The Way of The Intercepting Fist."

What precisely does that mean? Beating someone to the punch, meeting, passing...it can mean all of these things at once. It is by no means a mistake that FMAs and JKD have become "Blood Brothers." The whole, underlying Principle of, "The Way of The Intercepting Fist" is found in the gunting, it is found in the stick, the pocket stick, the sword and the knife. It is throughout the FMAs. The scissoring Crossada movement with the strike, is, in a very real way...JKD. If you ignore that JKD is one thing as it stands right now. Forget the baggage and examine the essence of it. Datu Kelly Worden's "Renegade JKD" is his interpretation of it.

Kelly has remained silent about alot of things, as he told me, out of respect for Professor Remy Presas. I'm sure his own words will be known soon enough to those interested.

Professor Presas and Modern Arnis, it is called Modern Arnis for a reason, it is in a state of flux. Yes, it has the root and the core, but it is more than alot of people give it credit for. And I believe that is the main message that Datu Kelly Worden wishes to convey at this time.

There have been things said that are not quite as accurate as they should be. There is talk of Juniors and Seniors and Datus and who is what and how, when, and why they got there or received a Title.

Datu Kelly Worden is recognized by many to be one of the leading authorities on Modern Arnis. Professor Remy Presas' own words, one day soon, will be known. Those words will lay this controversy to rest I believe.

It is no secret that Datu Worden left the "fold" of Modern Arnis for some time, a few years...it is also no secret that some people had Titles conferred and then later they were pulled as they fell from Grace. This happens in all systems.

Professor Presas never stripped Kelly Worden of the Title of Datu in Modern Arnis. When Datu Kelly returned, he was welcomed and embraced by Professor Presas. There is a reason for that, the reason is, Modern Arnis is apparently alot more than some people understand, like JKD, it is greater than its' published parts.

Professor Presas embraced Datu Worden because Datu Worden always gave credit where credit was due and what Datu Worden is doing, right now, is in fact, Modern Arnis. It might be so far from a structured formula and belief system that personalities are having problems with it. That's fine too.

With respect to Professor Presas, his Family, Modern Arnis, and the Masters that he now sits with that have went before him on his Journey...

Don

Originally posted by Don Rearic
When I found this thread, I was scratching my head about some things. I thought some things harsh and perhaps others I simply did not know about.

Thanks for your post! I do not believe that I have ever met Mr. Worden but I have certainly read about him, in martial arts magazines and on the web. I gather he teaches the military often--it would be interesting to attend one of his seminars.

My post was something of an inside joke concerning my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, I'm afraid: Both Datu Hartman and Datu Worden use the term "Renegade" which I found a somewhat amusing coincidence. I intended no disrespect to Mr. Worden.


Kelly has remained silent about alot of things, as he told me, out of respect for Professor Remy Presas. I'm sure his own words will be known soon enough to those interested.

There have been things said that are not quite as accurate as they should be.

Many here will be interested I am sure! The Professor's son, Mr. D. Presas, also posts here from time to time, as does an officer of the IMAF, Inc. Can you share anything with us about this news or the inaccuracies at this point?


Datu Kelly Worden is recognized by many to be one of the leading authorities on Modern Arnis. Professor Remy Presas' own words, one day soon, will be known. Those words will lay this controversy to rest I believe.

A bold statement! Given the claims already made by Mr. Delaney, by Dr. Schea's group, and by the MARPPIO group, it will be most interesting to hear from Mr. Worden or his representatives. Since the two IMAFs managed to split up despite their roles being spelt out in the Professor's will and MARPPIO appeared despite their not being mentioned in the will it may be too much too hope that the Professor's "own words" will suffice to set things right at this late date.

...it is also no secret that some people had Titles conferred and then later they were pulled as they fell from Grace.

Well, this was kept secret from me at least...to whom are you referring? Which titles were these? I can only think of one possible instance where a black belt may have been revoked, and I am unsure even of that.


Professor Presas embraced Datu Worden because Datu Worden always gave credit where credit was due and what Datu Worden is doing, right now, is in fact, Modern Arnis. It might be so far from a structured formula and belief system that personalities are having problems with it. That's fine too.

To be honest, his name only comes up when people are trying to enumerate the complete list of Modern Arnis datus, as Mr. Hartman recently did in this very thread:

Originally posted by Renegade
Shishiar Inacallo-Canada
Kelly Worden-USA
Ric Jornales-USA
David Hoffman-USA currently UK
Dieter Knuttel-Germany
Tim Hartman (myself)-USA

Apart from that he is generally not mentioned. It will be most interesting if another Modern Arnis datu takes on an active role! Out of curiousity, do you know what rank (lakan ...) Mr. Worden holds and when it was granted? This has been discussed in conjunction with the MOTTs.

I hope that this board does not appear hostile to Mr. Worden and his group. I think that many of us simply do not know much about him and his relationship to Modern Arnis. The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him.

I think Worden's name came up simply because we were discussing active Modern Arnis Datus. I think the word 'active' can be a bit subjective here. I'm positive nobody meant anything harsh about Worden or any of the other datus listed by Renegade.

At least, I know I didn't mean anything harsh. :) Seriously, though, just a friendly discussion from curious folk (in my case, nosey folk).

Cthulhu
not affiliated with Modern Arnis at all, just nosey as all hell when it comes to martial arts.

Originally posted by arnisador
Thanks for your post! I do not believe that I have ever met Mr. Worden but I have certainly read about him, in martial arts magazines and on the web. I gather he teaches the military often--it would be interesting to attend one of his seminars.

My post was something of an inside joke concerning my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, I'm afraid: Both Datu Hartman and Datu Worden use the term "Renegade" which I found a somewhat amusing coincidence. I intended no disrespect to Mr. Worden.

Yes, he is currently teaching the finest at the moment. The people that require his skills the most. It is comforting that in times like these, that we find ourselves in...even given the state of Warfare and firearms and all of the other aspects of Warfare, that the Military seeks out The Best when it comes to subjects like Hand to Hand Combat, Edged and Impact Weapons...even though in the minds of most Military Personnel...these things are low on the priority list. For Special Forces, there is always a heightened probability that they will find themselves in Close Combat with the enemy. There is a long history stretching back decades to this practice...of going outside Official Channels to gain the best instruction in rather exotic arts.

As for the term "Renegade," I wanted to do what Datu Worden did not have the time to do. And that was to explain that what he refers to as "Renegade JKD" is his personal conceptual vehicle and philosophy, literally taking Sifu Bruce Lee's words and deeds to heart...to explore and find out for yourself what works and to find the common thread in many different things. Datu Worden has used the phrase for a long time, "Connecting The Systems," and his ability to do just that is one of the reasons that he is held in such a high regard to so many people.

Many here will be interested I am sure! The Professor's son, Mr. D. Presas, also posts here from time to time, as does an officer of the IMAF, Inc. Can you share anything with us about this news or the inaccuracies at this point?

There is some speculation as to precisely what role Datu Worden has in the World of Modern Arnis, that will be clarified in the not too distant future. I believe Datu Worden is in close contact with the Presas Family and has remained so for quite some time.

Since the two IMAFs managed to split up despite their roles being spelt out in the Professor's will and MARPPIO appeared despite their not being mentioned in the will it may be too much too hope that the Professor's "own words" will suffice to set things right at this late date.

Indeed, as I was speaking to Datu tonight, I remarked, "Empires are built and they fall and the mad scramble begins." This is nothing new really. I have the utmost respect for those people who have given so much of themselves, so much that they could have quit years ago and lived comfortably...instead, they continued on and did what they loved to do. To share and to live in that way. And I think that is one of the greatest gifts Professor Presas left. His love for Modern Arnis. Everyone knows Professor Presas was like the theoretical Rock Band that never tired of touring. So tireless...that's not about money, that's love, I respect that more than anything. The actual love of The Arts themselves.

Well, this was kept secret from [I]me at least...to whom are you referring? Which titles were these? I can only think of one possible instance where a black belt may have been revoked, and I am unsure even of that.

Not mere Black Belts in Modern Arnis, also...I was not referring to anyone in this thread. But what I spoke about, will in time come to the surface.

Apart from that he is generally not mentioned. It will be most interesting if another Modern Arnis datu takes on an active role!

I think that is one of the sources of controversy currently. People are making clear distinctions on who is "active" and who is not that Professor Remy Presas did not necessarily make. In other words, up until the end, Professor Presas embraced Datu Kelly Worden and gave blessing to what he was doing and where he was taking Modern Arnis. That's pretty active.

I think one of the things that "got the ball rolling" in here, as it were, was a statement that the "JKD People" don't know what he is doing and the Modern Arnis People don't know what he is doing. (That is not a direct quote, but close enough to illustrate.) The misunderstanding being, what he is doing is Modern Arnis with Professor Presas blessing.

Out of curiousity, do you know what rank (lakan ...) Mr. Worden holds and when it was granted? This has been discussed in conjunction with the MOTTs.

Actually, I was trying to ask so many questions tonight and listen to the responses, I honestly forgot to ask, but it was on my mind. So, I'm sorry, I don't have the Rank.

I hope that this board does not appear hostile to Mr. Worden and his group. I think that many of us simply do not know much about him and his relationship to Modern Arnis. The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him.

There were some statements that came across rather harshly, I would just ask everyone to remember your last sentence.

"The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him."

That's true and there is a reason that he has carried that Title and it has never been questioned, nor has his activity been publicly or severely questioned until now. For over ten years he has been Datu Kelly Worden.

I don't think it is one bit innaccurate or untruthful to say, that he had the blessing of Professor Presas because Professor Presas knew exactly what Datu Worden was doing and where he was going and where he was taking Modern Arnis. The highest compliment to be conferred on Professor Presas in this matter, is that that one of the most sought-after Edged Weapons/Combatives Instructors, utilized by some Units of U.S. Special Forces, is Datu Kelly Worden.

That should be a source of pride for everyone associated with Modern Arnis, that one of your own is viewed in such a light, and that your Art is viewed with such value, the effectiveness of it, that it is used by these people.

This is where Datu Worden has taken Modern Arnis and this is why he remains active, just not necessarily active as equal to the definition of some people.

Thank you for the welcome!

With Respect,

Don

Originally posted by Don Rearic
The highest compliment to be conferred on Professor Presas in this matter, is that that one of the most sought-after Edged Weapons/Combatives Instructors, utilized by some Units of U.S. Special Forces, is Datu Kelly Worden.

That should be a source of pride for everyone associated with Modern Arnis, that one of your own is viewed in such a light, and that your Art is viewed with such value, the effectiveness of it, that it is used by these people.


This is an excellent point and I heartily agree. I think Modern Arnis--and the Filipino Martial Arts in general--have much to offer in that regard. They represent an improvement over the techniques illustrated in the books by the late Michael Echanis, for example. The fact that members of the military choose someone trained in knife fighting by the Professor should indeed be considered very flattering and very telling.


This is where Datu Worden has taken Modern Arnis and this is why he remains active, just not necessarily active as equal to the definition of some people.

I think that most people equate "active in Modern Arnis" with "frequently seen at camps and seminars", rightly or wrongly. I think in the case of Mr. Worden it has also not always been clear to me, at least, how his "Natural Spirit" fit in with Modern Arnis. I have a clearer understanding of it now. Thanks for posting.

First of all I am not posting here to cause any more conflict then what has already occurred. I have been a student of Datu Worden for 13 years, and I have heard the same questions and statements made in this thread for years.
I have had the opportunity to train in seminars and classes with many students from Professor Presas’s past. I have trained with Datu Ric Jounales, Datu Dieter Knuttel, Master Roland Dantes, Punong Guro Myrlino Hufana and which all taught Modern Arnis, and all showed their own interpretation of the art. It was still Modern Arnis, but with their personalities. They embraced the most important lesson I ever learned from the Professor, “make Arnis your own”.
I have read in this post that people do not know what base system Mr. Worden is from. Well, I wish to clarify this; Mr. Worden’s heart belongs to Modern Arnis. Like the Professor did for many years, Datu Worden is doing the same, he is evolving his art.
Datu Worden has always believed in staying true to his art, which I feel he has. Datu Worden has always made it a point to give credit to all his teachers, and never accepted credit that he did not deserve.
My main point to all this is that these threads should not be an arena to discuss political differences or who deserves what title, it should be a place for all to gather and share knowledge. This Filipino martial arts thread should be a tribute to the family of Professor Presas, and not a discussion of when and how, or who said what.
You may or may not agree with Datu Worden’s style, or ideologies that is fine. I am not here to convert anyone, but what I do ask is that everyone respect the memory of Professor Presas and share your stories and experiences and not politics. We all have experienced Professor in some form or another, maybe it was one seminar where he slammed you to the ground or maybe you were lucky enough to spend quality time with the man, so share it. Allow the next generation of Modern Arnis students to learn from your stories about Professor Presas.
So please look inside yourself and ask yourself is rank or title that important, or is it the heart and skill of the teacher. I personally have learned some valuable martial arts lessons from people that had no experience or limited experience, and on the flip side I have met people with more rank and years then I, and learned absolutely nothing.
I can speak freely for all of Datu Worden’s students we do not judge people by rank, we judge them on heart and open mind ness. Each one of Datu’s students has something unique to offer to the group.
In my eyes Datu Worden has earned the title of Datu, because he has taken the lesson he learned from the Professor and has embraced them with his heart. He has stayed and continues to stay true to the Professor and his family.
Datu Worden will always be my teacher and I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors. So lets not turn these issues into a tribal war, lets learn from each other, and explore Modern Arnis the way the Professor wished us to.

Thank you for your time
Bob Riley

have been following this thread for the past few days and have been amazed at the political posturing that is implied here. It seems to me you are implying belt #s are more important than skill? When I am training with new people I pay attention to their skill, knowledge and talent, not how many slashes are on their belt. Many times I have seen non-blackbelts with more talent than multi-slashed blackbelts. Shouldn't your status stand on your abilities and your heart or commitment? There were inquiries as to Datu Kelly Worden ranking and I think you missed the boat. Would you assign a blackbelt number to a Grandmaster? Datu Worden has evolved the Modern Arnis system into a ruthless, lethal Combative Art! His systems are internationally known, has produced over 20 videos (sold over 7000 videos), Designed and sold thousands of knives, Been teaching the military for years. Roland Dantes is in the process of getting ready to shoot a martial arts movie here in the Northwest starring Datu Worden!
The is only a brief synopsis of Datu Worden's accomplishments. Who else in the system can list these kind of career accomplishments? How many are full time career martial artists?

Roland Dantes is a very long time student of the professor's and is on the cover of the Professor's book at Madison Square garden. He holds and 8th degree in the system, is a very famous martial arts movie star in the Philippines. Go to his page at

http://gmpresas.com/bio_roland.htm

to learn about Roland, a real gentleman! Check out the picture of him and Datu Worden taken at the professors nursing home the day before he passed away. Roland spent a few months living with Datu Worden last summer and it was a rare privilege to have him training with us! Email Roland and ask him what he thinks of Datu Worden at

rolanddantes@hotmail.com

I already know what he thinks. By the way Roland is the CHAIRMAN of INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
ARNIS PHILIPPINES and PHILIPPINE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE. A true Ambassador to Modern Arnis!


Pappy Geo, unclassified

I can't speak for the others, but I was just asking about MOTTS/datu titles in general for pure curiosity. I have no political motives whatsoever because, as I've said before, I am not affiliated with Modern Arnis in any way, shape, or form. I'm interested in all martial arts, and this topic piqued my curiosity.

All these defensive posts on this thread. Methinks some peoples doth protest too much.

Cthulhu

You are absolutely correct and that is my point!

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I can't speak for the others, but I was just asking about MOTTS/datu titles in general for pure curiosity. I have no political motives whatsoever because, as I've said before, I am not affiliated with Modern Arnis in any way, shape, or form. I'm interested in all martial arts, and this topic piqued my curiosity.

All these defensive posts on this thread. Methinks some peoples doth protest too much.

Cthulhu

I have no interests in the Politics of various Martial Systems either because as we all know, that is a Dead End Street to Nowhereville. Yet, they exist and to ignore that is not good either. I think some of the remarks were "harsh" as I described them before because...while they give credit to Datu Worden's ability as a Martial Artist [Datu Hartman said this.] they also ignore that what Datu Worden is doing is, in a very real way, Modern Arnis with the blessing of Professor Presas.

Words do mean things and I don't think I would put these posts in the "Defensive" or "Offensive" Realm, they are opinions. The point being, one side-an opinion-was voiced, now another has been voiced. This is called, balance. And in every endeavor of the Human Experience, balance is not something that should be condemned or looked upon with disdain.

That's a direct answer to the end of your post with regard to the possibility of people protesting too much. There is no "protest" at all. It is just a series of remarks that clarify a position and a person and what the person, Datu Kelly Worden, is doing. That's all.

This next quote from Datu Hartman, a/k/a "Renegade," is I think what muddied the waters so to speak.

Originally posted by Renegade
Cthulu,
that is a good question. I have no clue what rank if any in Modern Arnis that he has. I've seen his tapes and have had phone conversations with him. From what I see he is a talented martial artist. When I ask the Modern Arnis people they say he is a JKD person. When you talk to the JKD people they say he's a Modern Arnis person. The material I've seen on the tapes that I have access to does not give me the impression of Modern Arnis. Instead I think of the JKD Kali program. There is no question on his ability, I'm just not sure what the root art is.

This is a glowing post in that, an observation has been made as to Datu Worden's abilities. The question then becomes, what of the JKD/Modern Arnis statement?

As I stated before, and I'll give another example. Professor Presas was well-known to have Seminars with Professor Wally Jay and Sensei Dillman. Professor Presas was actively involved in the evolution of his Art, which is of course Modern Arnis.

Because Professor Presas was of that mindset, it is for that precise reason that Datu Kelly Worden's body of work has continued on with the blessing of Professor Presas...

With respect to Datu Hartman who I bear no ill will to whatsoever, it should be clear that what Datu Worden is doing is in the Grand Tradition of Modern Arnis itself. If something should be found in Datu Worden's Modern Arnis that is not found in Datu Hartman's Modern Arnis, that should come as no surprise and should not be a basis for a claim that what Datu Kelly Worden is doing is not Modern Arnis. It is.

I'm not attempting to take a shot at Datu Hartman in any way, I'm setting something straight for a friend and there are no ulterior motives in the posts whatsoever.

Again, you can refer to Datu Worden's interpretation of Modern Arnis as Modern Arnis in that, it received the blessing of Professor Presas, and always has. That's the active point.

Datu Kelly Worden has simply done as he always claimed, he "Connected the Systems." This is of great value and is also in the tradition of Modern Arnis Camps and Seminars where many people from a plethora of Systems and Styles came to learn Modern Arnis from Professor Presas and in so doing, they went back home with some more effective movement that they could then incorporate into their own Martial Arts Disciplines.

That statement is based in fact and not conjecture. That's where the "sharing" and "love" of the Filipino Arts was injected by Professor Presas that I spoke of earlier. Professor Presas actively toured for decades to spread the good word of Modern Arnis and how that particular System could be integrated into many different Arts. And that is "Connecting the Systems." So, Datu Worden is simply carrying on that tradition that Professor Presas blessed him with.

And none of the comments about Professor Jay or Sensei Dillman should be taken as anything other than what I spoke of. Modern Arnis, in a very real way and early on, was heavily involved with finding the common thread that ran through other Arts. Thereby, "Connecting the Systems."

As I said, no ulterior motives, with respect...

Don

:) How thrilling it is to have some of Kelly's associates posting. I agree that we should be all working together. I have mentioned this before. It would be nice if we could all be on one team. I think that in a sense we are, in that we practice martial arts, and modern arnis more specifically. I was told by Remy many times that Dr. Shea is the Chairman of the Board, and he never mentioned anyone else in this capacity. He aslo said many times that he considered Tim a son, among other things that he said about Tim. He said, also, that he considered Kelly one of the best knife fighters in the world and that "my God, he is deadly". As I mentioned in the past, I think that Remy saw something in each person that he put in each position. I am grateful and honored to be associated with the people that I am. I see something good in everyone that I "play" with. Everyone has good and not so good points. I try to see the good. Sometimes that is very difficult because the person makes it so. I am grateful for the times that I spent with Remy talking in confidence as this gave me some perspective on how he felt about certain people and what he looked for in them. He said many good things as well as some not so good things about people. I don't know how often he spoke like this or with whom, but I am grateful that he felt comfortable, confident enough with/in me to speak with me like this. It gave me a very personal perspective. I don't know how many people ever heard what Remy really felt about them. Some of what he said to me I have shared with these people, some is mentioned above. Some is better left unsaid. I have spoken with Kelly about some of what is soon to be released. I am anxoius to see it in print. Kelly tends to let his actions speak for him as opposed to his words. Bravo. My wife and I were treated to lunch by him while we were in Washinton. My wife has a pretty good instinct when it comes to sort of reading people. She liked Kelly. This is just great,....sometimes I wonder if she likes me! As for the term active, I don't know if I consider whether they go to camp or not jermain. I know many very active people in various styles that don't compete, go to camp or do tournaments. They are still very active teaching, promoting the art and training.

One more thing that the Prof. said to me on more than one occasion was "do not mind the barking dogs, just do your work".
Amen.

There's a lot of good information that has been posted rapidly--I'm still trying to digest it all! Now that Mr. Worden will be taking a more visible role in Modern Arnis, as I understand from these posts, I'll have to learn more about him. Hopefully a seminar will come my way before long--does he travel much to give seminars?

Originally posted by Don Rearic

As for the term "Renegade," I wanted to do [inform] what Datu Worden did not have the time to do. And that was to explain that what he refers to as "Renegade JKD" is his personal conceptual vehicle and philosophy, literally taking Sifu Bruce Lee's words and deeds to heart...


Do you mean to say that Mr. Worden was a student of Bruce Lee? Or did he learn JKD from Mr. Inosanto or another instructor? (I do not know Mr. Worden's age--perhaps he could not have studied with Bruce Lee.) Was he a JKD practitioner prior to studying Modern Arnis then? I have never had the chance to study JKD but have of course read much of what Bruce Lee wrote about it.


There is some speculation as to precisely what role Datu Worden has in the World of Modern Arnis, that will be clarified in the not too distant future.

I will be most interested to hear more. Between the two IMAFs, MARPPIO, the WMAA, PIGSSAI/IMAF-Philippines, Arnis de Leon, etc., it's hard to know what to think!


People are making clear distinctions on who is "active" and who is not that Professor Remy Presas did not necessarily make.

It's obvious that Mr. Worden is and has been an active martial artist. As I said before, people usually take "active" to mean actively visible at the camps and seminars, and this is a somewhat restricted meaning of the term. Mr. Hartman and the MOTTs have been active in this sense but it is not the only sense of the term by any means.

MartialTalk has been a great resource for learning and sharing about Modern Arnis! It's apity we didn't have it when the Professor was around.

Originally posted by Bob
I have had the opportunity to train in seminars and classes with many students from Professor Presas’s past. I have trained with Datu Ric Jounales, Datu Dieter Knuttel, Master Roland Dantes, Punong Guro Myrlino Hufana and which all taught Modern Arnis, and all showed their own interpretation of the art. It was still Modern Arnis, but with their personalities.


I envy you your variety in training! I would disagree that Mr. Jornales taught Modern Arnis, however, despite being a Modern Arnis datu. He associated with the Professor but I thought that he had always taught his own art, Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (or simply Arnis Sikaran).


I have read in this post that people do not know what base system Mr. Worden is from. Well, I wish to clarify this; Mr. Worden’s heart belongs to Modern Arnis. Like the Professor did for many years, Datu Worden is doing the same, he is evolving his art.

Thanks, this had not been clear to me before this thread--Modern Arnis appeared to be only one art of many he had studied and "connected" with others.


My main point to all this is that these threads should not be an arena to discuss political differences or who deserves what title, it should be a place for all to gather and share knowledge.


A nice thought but alas politics is currently an issue. We have two IMAFs, each with their own co-successor and co-grandmaster; MARPPIO; and now Mr. Inocalla's group. Modern Arnis is in danger of disappearing if we cannot come together, I fear, and that is worth discussing. One cohesive group would be more than the sum of these many parts, but I frankly don't think that's a realistic hope at this point.

I believe that in the end the Professor wanted one group to be the one to principally carry the art forward for him--the IMAF under the MOTTs. That hope is now dashed. Perhaps the upcoming announcement from Mr. Worden will change my mind; I also follow the developments with MARPPIO and the new announcement concerning the IMAF-Philippines. Politics is here to stay, I think. If the co-successors and various claimants to the Professor's legacy don't get their acts together then I believe his art will disappear before we know what happened. It's influence will remain but the art will be gone. I take no joy in being so pessimistic, and I do not mean the art should be static, but I don't think the current situation is healthy for the art.


In my eyes Datu Worden has earned the title of Datu, because he has taken the lesson he learned from the Professor and has embraced them with his heart. He has stayed and continues to stay true to the Professor and his family.
Datu Worden will always be my teacher and I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors. So lets not turn these issues into a tribal war

Ah, but I would argue that a statement such as "I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors" is exactly what leads to a tribal war! I'll stand beside my instructor as long as I believe he's in the right. I'll give him a great deal of trust because he has earned it, but I won't stand beside him for any other reason than my belief in him, as long as that continues. I suspect this is just semantics and that you and I actually agree in our hearts, however, for anyone who truly learned the Professor's lessons learned the importance of heart in the martial arts. How often did the Professor emphasize training in friendship and respect, for fun and betterment? It was more important to him that we had fun and grew as people than that we developed martial skills and grew as martial artists in the technical sense.

Modern Arnis is a do art, not a jutsu art. The Professor wanted, in his humble way, to make us better people more than he wanted to make us better fighters. He was a loving man. I look at the scramble for position and prestige following his death and frankly some of the positioning prior to his death, during his prolonged sickness, and I am sad for him.

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
have been following this thread for the past few days and have been amazed at the political posturing that is implied here. It seems to me you are implying belt #s are more important than skill?

I don't think that anyone believes that. In fact, an early thread addressed this issue, and that as you go on to say "beginners" can often teach one a lot. One hopes that belts were given out as an indication of skill--I cannot judge skill over the Internet but I can judge that if Mr. Hartman, say, tested for 6th degree black belt before the Professor and passed then he was thought to have some amount of skill, presumably exceeding that expected of a lower degree black belt.

The politics has been thrust upon us, I would say: IMAF; IMAF, Inc.; MARPPIO; and so on. I would have been most happy to have a single IMAF with a well-defined head. It is unfortunate that the MOTTS as a whole were unable to carry out the Professor's wishes. We have heard comments on whether the fault was solely Mr. Delaney's or no, but in the end the structure laid out by the Professor failed, rapidly. This is a sad and regrettable fact, and we must make the best of it as facts can be remarkably stubborn things.

There were inquiries as to Datu Kelly Worden ranking and I think you missed the boat. Would you assign a blackbelt number to a Grandmaster?

Well, yes--10, in most cases. This was the rank that Professor Presas claimed for example. This is very common. Balintawak may have no ranking system but Modern Arnis does. Why is it offensive to ask about Mr. Worden's rank? The Professor signed all black belt certificates--they were nice certificates, and it was a serious affair. The Modern Arnis ranking system appears even in the 1973 red book, unless I am much mistaken.

I'll be blunt: I don't see why Mr. Worden's supporters are so defensive and so secretive about this issue. I've never had the chance to train with Mr. Worden and I haven't seen his videos. I have read articles and my instructor has commented very positively on hi martial skills. Something big is apparently going to happen concerning him soon and an attemptto gain simple biographical information, that should be a matter of public record on file with the IMAF, results in lectures on not judging people by their rank. I do know better than that--but Modern Arnis, unlike JKD, has a ranking system modeled after the judo kyu/dan rankings (recall that the Professor was both a judoka and a karateka as well as an arnisador). Why is this question seen as being offensive? Mr. Worden has not been attending Modern Arnis events, to the best of my knowledge, so I have not met him--I am trying to learn about him, with an open mind, and what rank the Professor gave him and waht title the Professor gave him will factor into my judgement until I am fortunate enough to be able to form an in-person opinion of him, because I trust the Professor's judgement.


Roland Dantes [...] holds and 8th degree in the system

Not that this matters?

Originally posted by Don Rearic
Professor Presas was actively involved in the evolution of his Art, which is of course Modern Arnis.

Yes, the art has changed a lot from the 70s through the 80s and into the 90s, with the final heavy emphasis on tapi-tapi as opposed to the largo style and all the emphasis on empty-hand joint locks in the 80s. The art has evolved a great deal, and the Professor was actively doing this.


With respect to Datu Hartman who I bear no ill will to whatsoever, it should be clear that what Datu Worden is doing is in the Grand Tradition of Modern Arnis itself. If something should be found in Datu Worden's Modern Arnis that is not found in Datu Hartman's Modern Arnis, that should come as no surprise and should not be a basis for a claim that what Datu Kelly Worden is doing is not Modern Arnis. It is.

I expect that the same will be true of the MARPPIO contingent--that they will be doing Modern Arnis as the Professor envisioned it in the early 70s, unless they have evolved it from there. I expect that it will be very different from what the MOTTs are doing.

Again, you can refer to Datu Worden's interpretation of Modern Arnis as Modern Arnis in that, it received the blessing of Professor Presas, and always has.

I respect this and I expect that much the same could be said of Mr. Hartman--the Professor sent him to Mr. Buot for Balintawak so that Mr. Hartman could continue to evolve from the Modern Arnis he has been taught. This is not a problem--the Professor studied and melded many styles, and he hadn't finished before his untimely death.

I don't believe that anyone is put off by Mr. Worden's evolution of Modern Arnis. Please undersatnd--we simply don't know that much about him. I remember a comic (B.C.) that I read many years ago in which one character asked some innocuous question, to which the other character gave the answer then added, "Why do you ask?" The first character responded simply, "In order to find out." Speaking for myself, I am asking in order to find out.

Originally posted by Mao
How thrilling it is to have some of Kelly's associates posting. I agree that we should be all working together.

Let me strongly agree with both of these points! I am pleased to hear that Mao speaks well of Mr. Worden, as Mao has appeared to take a balanced and fair view of things rather than a dogmatic approach and I am growing to trust his opinion (well, as much as I am prepared to trust any anonymous Internet poster--no offense intended Mao!).

Originally posted by arnisador
There's a lot of good information that has been posted rapidly--I'm still trying to digest it all! Now that Mr. Worden will be taking a more visible role in Modern Arnis, as I understand from these posts, I'll have to learn more about him. Hopefully a seminar will come my way before long--does he travel much to give seminars?

Let me extremely specific and concise on one point[1] and then deliberately vague on another[2].

1. Alot of people throw out names and people they teach to impress people. This has been done so much, it's moldy. Any minor association is propped up as being a Full-Time Instructor for .

Datu Kelly Worden has a Full-Time Commitment, training on a weekly basis with a U.S. Special Forces Group. I know he has trained a Ranger Unit and the U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers in the past, but as far as I know, he is hardwired in and committed with one Special Forces Unit on a weekly basis right now.

2. Because of #1, not likely he is going to be doing any nationwide seminar tours.

Do you mean to say that Mr. Worden was a student of Bruce Lee? Or did he learn JKD from Mr. Inosanto or another instructor? (I do not know Mr. Worden's age--perhaps he could not have studied with Bruce Lee.) Was he a JKD practitioner prior to studying Modern Arnis then? I have never had the chance to study JKD but have of course read much of what Bruce Lee wrote about it.

No, I don't believe so. He might have been schooled in JKD at one time but I don't think so, what he did was take the [i]concept and the spirit of what Sifu Lee wished to accomplish with JKD and then he simply did it.

I think he wanted to let people know that maybe things were getting a bit stagnant and that some people needed to broaden their horizons, so to speak.

I might sound like Datu Worden's Spokesman, but I'm not, there are some things he will always be able to answer far more accurately than I.

1) "people of integrity expect to be believed, and when their not, they let time prove them right." I like this.

2) Arnisador, if your curious I will e-mail you s little info. about myself. That way I won't be so anonymous, to you at least.

Originally posted by arnisador
Modern Arnis is a do art, not a jutsu art. The Professor wanted, in his humble way, to make us better people more than he wanted to make us better fighters.

I had a minor computer problem and had to go and remove some TCIP whatnots, reboot and fire the piggy back up, I was going to comment on this earlier. Forgive my tardiness...

I don't know if I would characterize any Filipino Martial Art in that particular light, but you are most certainly free to take from said Art and extract that philosophy from it. Further, I think when that happens and the roots of the Art, which is Martial, expires, then these Arts will become mere shells of their former selves.

It's also rather odd to assign specificity to Filipino Arts that are Japanese in nature for me personally.

These Arts, to alot of people, are Survival Arts. They are for the preservation of Life. If that means something bad happens to the next guy, so be it. But that is the thrust for me personally. I think that was lost when Aiki[ju]jutsu/Jujutsu split to form Judo and Aikido. When Jigoro Kano formed what would be called Judo, there were actually two forms of it, maybe more, but two basic forms. One was Sporting and one was Combative. Some Judoka have went back in time to regain the Combative aspects. With Aikido, Tomiki Ryu came about which brought in Combative aspects to that as well where they had been removed.

Originally posted by Don Rearic
Datu Kelly Worden has a Full-Time Commitment, training on a weekly basis with a U.S. Special Forces Group. I know he has trained a Ranger Unit and the U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers in the past, but as far as I know, he is hardwired in and committed with one Special Forces Unit on a weekly basis right now.

2. Because of #1, not likely he is going to be doing any nationwide seminar tours.


That's great that he is working with Special Forces, but a shame that I won't be likely to see him soon. I understand what you mean about people exaggerating any slight connection with the military or police but having read about Mr. Worden in the martial arts magazines I do not doubt that he has a significant and on-going commitment and the respect of those he helps train.


I might sound like Datu Worden's Spokesman, but I'm not, there are some things he will always be able to answer far more accurately than I.

Fair enough. I will remember the distinction. This board has been a great place for sharing information on Modern Arnis, and I am glad that we have more representatives of more groups/people now. That's great.

Originally posted by Mao
1) "people of integrity expect to be believed, and when their not, they let time prove them right."

I love it--what is the source?


2) Arnisador, if your curious I will e-mail you s little info. about myself. That way I won't be so anonymous, to you at least.

I appreciate the offer but for now I think I'll continue to enjoy the mystery. Hmmmm, not a MOTT but a member of the IMAF, Inc. board, right? According to http://www.modernarnis.net/about/board.shtml that leaves:

Al Garza (TX)
David Hoffman (MA)
Brian Johns (OH)
Dan McConnell (OH)
David Ng (NC)
Roland Rivera (NC)
Scott Vanderzee (MI)
Terry Wareham (CO)

If you're Terry Wareham I do think well of you (but you don't sound like Terry); if you're Al Garza, please stop spamming me.

In all seriousness, I appreciate your offer to take me at least partially into your confidence but I won't ask you to do that. Your words have been speaking for themselves.

I'm not sure of the original source, but you can quote me as saying it. :D
I guess that I have no choice but to let you continue enjoying the mystery. We'll see if you can deduce my true identity. :D
Or we'll see if anyone rats me out.

Originally posted by Don Rearic
It's also rather odd to assign specificity to Filipino Arts that are Japanese in nature for me personally.

I suppose I wouldn't want to be taken too literally on this issue of do vs. jutsu as applied to Modern Arnis, but the Professor's big innovation was striking the stick in training, not the hand, and he always emphasized character issues to a great extent. It has the "feel" of a do in a lot of ways. I don't think of do arts as ineffective, I think of the emphasis as having shifted somewhat, re-balanced to account for the fact that most of us are not at threat of loss of life and limb constantly. I have no problem with people taking a martial art for exercise, self-confidence, personal growth, etc., as well as self-defense. For some people pure combat training is necessary or desired, but not for everyone.


These Arts, to alot of people, are Survival Arts. They are for the preservation of Life.

Yes, I agree, and that's fine. But this isn't so of as large a percentage of the practitioners as it used to be, and stick-to-stick fighting is an unlikely scenario these days. Mr. Worden's military training programs clearly must focus on effective techniques; but many people in Modern Arnis just like to bang sticks.

The transition from jutsu arts to do and sports arts has been one of the most significant and noticeable martial arts evolutions of the last hundred-some-odd years. The Gracies consider judo to have been a great evolution--in contrast to your comment on it--because it allowed for full power techniques to be practiced against a resisting opponent, which they feel was a greater benefit than the loss of deadly techniques. (See also my post http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=455 in this forum.) I have no problem with what I take as your viewpoint--martial arts should be oriented toward fighting only--but many do them for exercise or enjoy the challenge of mastering fancy jumping kicks that are "demonstration only" techniques.

Or to put it another way, I don't like Tae Bo either but it's been a heck of a success!

As for aikido being ineffective, perhaps spending more time practicing the style would be enlightening. After so many years, in retrospect, I was a little concerned when I first began that I would lose the "edge" so to speak. Coming from "hard" styles for many years I didn't want to become "soft". After a while in aikido I had no more such concern. At a certain level many styles overlap. I began to apply theories, concepts and movements that made aikido, at times, almost frightening. I understand that many people practice it for the personal growth and I think that this is important. I have grown in many respects. But I believe that one of the biggest differences between "do" and "jutsu" is philosophical. The potential is usually present to injure, but we have a choice. Whether it's pistols at dawn or wiffle bats, one can make it either offensive or defensive.

It seems that there has been some misunderstanding with my use of the word active in regards to Modern Arnis people. When I use that word it refers to people being active in the Modern Arnis community. Since Remy was hospitalized many people have become visible. The Presas kid's, Dan Anderson, Worden, Inocallo, etc.

The Modern Arnis community is a small part of the Martial Art World. By no means did I intend to suggest that any one these people were not active martial artists, but the fact is that these people have not been interacting in Remy's organization for a long time!

I must go now. We've had 4 feet of snow and more is on the way.

:asian:

PS: Kaith, we need a snow shoveling smile!

While these terms can be used to differentiate most martial arts styles, I feel that they can only be accurately used when describing the Japanese martial arts. This is not merely because the terms originate from the Japanese MA.

Many of the Japanese -jutsu arts were battlefield arts...systems designed for use in warfare, which is a different animal from a system designed for just self-defense. The -do arts can be an extension/offshoot/evolution of the -jutsu arts, in that they have evolved from the battlefield arts into something for the 'everyman' (or everywoman - no sexist, I!).

Look at kendo. All the scoring points (kote, men, do, etc), would be pretty well armored on the Japanese soldier of old. However, if you look at...say...the Katori Shinto Ryu, their striking points are in between armor plates, or at other weak points in the armor. Katori Shinto Ryu's kenjutsu was designed to kill the enemy on the battlefield. Kendo was designed as a means of developing character through phsyical activity resembling traditional martial art.

So to me, it is incorrect to classify non-Japanese arts (including karate) as -do or -jutsu arts, since they don't follow the same evolution as the arts that coined those terms. Karate was not used as a battlefield martial art. It has always been for individual seld-defense. Many of the FMA appear the same.

Cthulhu
stopping before I ramble on forever.

Hey Geo and Bob! Glad to see other NSI players in here! Don Rearic is posting in here as well so that is really cool.

As far as I can recall Datu Worden's JKD influence came from Jesse Glover.

The curriculum that is being taught to the Special Forces soldiers is pretty much stripped down, go for the throat training featuring Modern Arnis. We have the SF guys punching, kicking and slamming each other against concrete. We train outside but here in the Northwest it is mostly in the cold and rain, so we get quite a bit of dealing with natural elements added to the training.

Datu Worden also has a camp every summer and has been presenting camps for over 20 years. Last year’s instructors were Datu Kelly Worden , Professor Leonard Trigg (JKD) and Dr. Brett Jacques (Sambo)--to limit these guys to a one word description is just for brevity they encompass more than what meets the eye. Other guest instructors have been James Keating, Burton Richardson, Maurice Smith, Greg Walker and the list goes on. I have been able to touch hands with many talented martial artists as well, so if you have the chance I recommend attending Datu’s Water and Steel summer camp.

Anyway I look forward to contributing to the forum.

Robert K.

Originally posted by Cthulhu
So to me, it is incorrect to classify non-Japanese arts (including karate) as -do or -jutsu arts, since they don't follow the same evolution as the arts that coined those terms. Karate was not used as a battlefield martial art. It has always been for individual seld-defense. Many of the FMA appear the same.

I surrender! I was looking for an appropriate analogy. What more general term(s) might be used to describe a more-or-less similar evolution of non-Japanese arts, as the Professor did with arnis? (Perhaps some would disagree with me that he did this but that is a separate matter.) How would one describe this? To what should it be compared?

Originally posted by no fefe
The curriculum that is being taught to the Special Forces soldiers is pretty much stripped down, go for the throat training featuring Modern Arnis.

That's great for the art--this deserves to be more widely publicized! Everyone thinks of Modern Arnis as a stick art but it has good open-hand and knife techniques that can be overlooked.


Datu Worden also has a camp every summer and has been presenting camps for over 20 years.

Thanks for posting. Are these camps held in Washington state then? Can anyone attend?

Originally posted by arnisador
That's great for the art--this deserves to be more widely publicized! Everyone thinks of Modern Arnis as a stick art but it has good open-hand and knife techniques that can be overlooked.

I think it is most excellent and I believe Modern Arnis will have its day in the sun in this new arena.

Thanks for posting. Are these camps held in Washington state then? Can anyone attend?

Yes! :D

I am a Student of Kelly Worden's so I was immediately interested in the topic of this thread and dismayed at its contents. Especially since, I had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with The Professor in his last months as his therapist. When I was in town I spent anywhere from ten to twelve hours a day with him massaging him and making sure he was comfortable. During my time there, I also had the pleasure of meeting Master Roland Dantes who answered many of my questions, and MOTT Ken Smith an all around nice guy who also answered some of my questions. I would like to include some observations I had during those sessions with Professor Presas.

1. There is an allusion in this list that Professor may not have been fully mentally competent during those last few months. Nothing could be further from the truth. While his strength and mobility were stolen by his illness, his mind was still sharp and he was strategizing until the end. In my opinion, right up until the last two weeks or so I do not believe Professor thought there would be an end.

2. It was very clear Datu's were to be held in higher regard than anyone else in his system is. Professor stated that a Datu was number one and was not to be bound by the system or any organization. This was further clarified by Master Dantes, who stated that by conferring Datu upon a person the professor was giving the person freedom to develop themselves and their art. Professor also made it clear that one was made a Datu because they showed something in their art that others in the group did not possess. That one did not attain this rank because of years in service or number of seminars attended. Master Dantes further stated that a Datu may not be the "technically proficient person" because they are limited by their technique, a Datu is the one with the most potential, one that can step outside of technical proficiency to a higher level, to make the art theirs.

3. On the question of active Datus, this point is moot for the reason stated above. If a person is "set free" to develop then obviously there is no such thing as Active/Inactive.

4. On the Datu's as a group, the Professor had an affinity for all of the Datu's and he was clearly proud of each Datu, as a father is proud of his son's. It was clear the some Datu's had done things that had made him unhappy at times but like a father he still loved them all.

5. On Datu Worden (which seems to be a popular subject here), Professor was very proud of him and was very clear in stating that he is the "FIRST AMERICAN DATU". He made this point abundantly clear to everyone who walked in to the room (including the nursing staff). He also stated that Datu Worden was made a Datu when he showed Professor his understanding of Arnis by "connecting the systems", his exact words were "I became the student and he became the teacher...I made him Datu on the spot." Professor was clear that Datu Worden and he were at odds at times but that Datu Worden needed to find his way and that while doing this he had become his most famous student. He further elaborated that because of that time Datu Worden and Modern Arnis benefited greatly and that this could not have been done inside the system. He also stated that Datu Worden was the Senior Blademaster of Modern Arnis. He spoke of no other Datu in such terms and only one other person in these terms and that was Master Dantes.

6. On Datu Hartman, the Professor had an affinity for all of the Datus as stated above however he did not speak much of Datu Hartman in my presence. Obviously, he has seen something in Datu Hartman he just never stated to me what that was. He did imply he was where Datu Worden was about 10-15 years ago.


I see this thread with obviously disparaging remarks about Datu Worden and Modern Arnis and wonder about the integrity and knowledge of the people who are making them. What I have revealed here is only the tip of the iceberg on this subject (as I said earlier I was spending anywhere from 10 - 12 hrs with the Professor per day.) I think many of the postings here are the similar to the Vultures feeding on decaying corpse in order to survive. These people obviously do not know the whole story and are trying to boost their own image now that there is no one to dispute them. Those people had better watch out because I believe a voice from the grave is about to be heard.

Originally posted by zenman

5. On Datu Worden (which seems to be a popular subject here), Professor was very proud of him and was very clear in stating that he is the "FIRST AMERICAN DATU".

Ah, thanks for clarifying that! This explains the "first" datu issue and is line with the list that had been posted here (Mr. Inacallo of Canada first in chronological order, followed by Mr. Worden).

Could you comment on the title Master (as in Master Dantes)?


I see this thread with obviously disparaging remarks about Datu Worden and Modern Arnis and wonder about the integrity and knowledge of the people who are making them.

Wondering openly about the integrity of people here seems an unnecessarily negative approach and a backwards step from the understanding posters here have come to recently. I believe that if you re-read the entire thread you'll find that Mr. Worden's name appeared in a list as part of an answer to the question "How many datus are there?" On the first page of this thread you'll find Mr. Hartman's post in that regard where he also notes that he is the only datu to have regularly attended camps in recent years. I expect that he saw this as a simple factual statement and others saw it as an affront or challenge. This happens all too easily in this medium with the absence of vocal, facial, and other cues.

Wondering openly about the knowledge of people here is different. I certainly admit that I was ignorant of many aspects of Mr. Worden's career and have been attempting to learn more. Your post has been helpful in that regard.


I think many of the postings here are the similar to the Vultures feeding on decaying corpse in order to survive. These people obviously do not know the whole story and are trying to boost their own image now that there is no one to dispute them. Those people had better watch out because I believe a voice from the grave is about to be heard.

This is rather exaggerated and to be frank seems to fit in with the hyper-defensive mindset that has accompanied the arrival of every one of Mr. Worden's supporters here. Why is this? Can it be a surprise that when none of Mr. Worden's students were here, his point of view was not well represented? It seems a simple matter of logic.

I can't speak for all but I really don't think any of us are hostile to Mr. Worden or his supporters. We have only recently had his point of view represented (as opposed to the IMAF, Inc., MARPPIO, and WMAA which have had representatives here longer). I think you'll find that factual information will be well received whereas comparisons to vultures will not. I have found the discussion on the Knives forum most useful, for example. I believe we have moved beyond the miscommunication to useful communication. I ask you: Are you truly presenting the image you wish to present to us?

Originally posted by arnisador
I believe that if you re-read the entire thread you'll find that Mr. Worden's name appeared in a list as part of an answer to the question "How many datus are there?" On the first page of this thread you'll find Mr. Hartman's post in that regard where he also notes that he is the only datu to have regularly attended camps in recent years. I expect that he saw this as a simple factual statement and others saw it as an affront or challenge.

No, I think that was made clear earlier actually. It was the statement about Modern Arnis people thinking he was JKD and JKD people thinking he was Modern Arnis, therefore, more or less saying that, that particular statement.

This is rather exaggerated and to be frank seems to fit in with the hyper-defensive mindset that has accompanied the arrival of every one of Mr. Worden's supporters here. Why is this? Can it be a surprise that when none of Mr. Worden's students were here, his point of view was not well represented? It seems a simple matter of logic.

That's a tricky thing. Words mean things. "Hyper-defensive mindset" carries a distinctly negative connotation with it. The opposite of that would be, "offensive," and when the thread(s) had the appearance of going in that direction, in came the Law to lay down exactly what the Law of the Land was.

So, as I said, words mean things. I don't see anything in here of defensive or offensive mindset. I see some things being straightened out as to precisely who Datu Worden is and more than a glimpse of what exactly his relationship with Professor Presas is/was.

Simply, who is Datu Worden and what exactly is he doing, what does he do? All of the answers have been put forth from that mindset and not something merely defensive.

I have found the discussion on the Knives forum most useful, for example. I believe we have moved beyond the miscommunication to useful communication.

Indeed. It can be productive in the extreme if allowed to flourish. I think a careful examination of Datu Worden's Statement I posted will provide a clear picture of exactly what Datu Worden represents and supports. And yes, it might lead to more questions, but up to this point, it should answer alot.

Originally posted by Don Rearic
I see some things being straightened out as to precisely who Datu Worden is and more than a glimpse of what exactly his relationship with Professor Presas is/was.

It's been most helpful to hear from Mr. Worden's students and now from Mr. Worden himself about that. As with the arnis/JKD perception you mentioned, it's better to get the information from the source.

I think a careful examination of Datu Worden's Statem