Hey ya'll. I just wondered if I could get some info on Tracy's Kenpo, insted of reading pages and pages of history.

1) Is is a Japanese, Okianwan, or American art?

2) What kind of strikes are in it, and what do they resemble? (resemble kickboxing, karate, ect?)

3) What kind of grappling is in it? (I've heard things like heel hooks and kneebars are in the system)

And any other info you find interesting or helpful, please tell.

Hey ya'll. I just wondered if I could get some info on Tracy's Kenpo, insted of reading pages and pages of history.

1) Is is a Japanese, Okianwan, or American art?

2) What kind of strikes are in it, and what do they resemble? (resemble kickboxing, karate, ect?)

3) What kind of grappling is in it? (I've heard things like heel hooks and kneebars are in the system)

And any other info you find interesting or helpful, please tell.

To my recollection and I may be wrong...

Tracy's Kenpo is a version of Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo with various material added by the Tracy's. It's strikes resemble Karate. There is no groundwork.

To my recollection and I may be wrong...

Tracy's Kenpo is a version of Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo with various material added by the Tracy's. It's strikes resemble Karate. There is no groundwork.

When reading material for it, I read stuff like heel hooks, and armbars, so how is there no groundwork?

When reading material for it, I read stuff like heel hooks, and armbars, so how is there no groundwork?

Plenty of standing armbars, but you won't see a juji-gatame in the regular syllabus.

There is a related system, run by Bart Vale, called Shootfighting which has its roots in Japanese Pancrase, that is taught at many Tracy schools. Vale was a Tracy Kenpo guy before he went to Japan, and brought it back with him. It has been disseminated to many Tracy Kenpo instructors, but in itself it is not "Tracy Kenpo." That may be what you are seeing, could you post a link?

Lamont

the Tracy kenpo system does have groundwork. Please check my post, #36, in the following thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=779599#post779599

I have listed some information as it was explained to me by my teacher, who is a direct student of the Tracy brothers, and has been in the system since the early 1960s.

Tracy kenpo is what the Tracys learned from Ed Parker in the 1950s and 1960s. As Mr. Parker changed his art, the Tracys decided to keep things closer to how they learned it, and did not go along with the changes.

They have added elements from other arts along the way as well. I know there are a number of forms that were adopted from various Chinese arts.

http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm

Look at orange and purple belt.

http://www.tracyskarate.com/betlsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm

Look at orange and purple belt.

That link doesn't seem to work for me, but what are you saying about the Orange and Purple belt curriculums?

Stuff like takedowns, headlocks, and leglocks.

EDIT - Try the link now

Stuff like takedowns, headlocks, and leglocks.

EDIT - Try the link now


yes, I am a Tracy guy and I know the orange and purple curriculum

there are a lot of defenses against basic grabs and whatnot, but these arent designed to become a jujitsu-like ground game/submission fight. They are designed to injure the attacker, get out of the grab, and get away without sticking around to "win" the submission fight. This is self-defense. Sticking around to "win" the fight is the realm of prize fighting.

Check out my post on the link I posted above. I explain this a bit more with regards to Tracys.

Then why do they talk about heel hooks and takedowns?

yes, I am a Tracy guy and I know the orange and purple curriculum

there are a lot of defenses against basic grabs and whatnot, but these arent designed to become a jujitsu-like ground game/submission fight. They are designed to injure the attacker, get out of the grab, and get away without sticking around to "win" the submission fight. This is self-defense. Sticking around to "win" the fight is the realm of prize fighting.

Check out my post on the link I posted above. I explain this a bit more with regards to Tracys.

Hey ya'll. I just wondered if I could get some info on Tracy's Kenpo, insted of reading pages and pages of history.

1) Is is a Japanese, Okianwan, or American art?

This depends greatly upon who you ask, and some folks get really surly if they think you believe the wrong answer. My understanding is it's American through Japan through Okinawa through China through India. But, as I say, if you ask somebody else you'll get a different answer.

2) What kind of strikes are in it, and what do they resemble? (resemble kickboxing, karate, ect?)[/quote]


Look at Jet Li & Wesley Snipes. Although neither of them is a Tracy guy they both move like a kenpoka (especially Wesley, who I understand is a Kajukembo practitioner). Also watch 'Perfect Weapon', starring Parker Kenpo dude Jeff Speakman. Not exactly the same, but you'll get the idea.

3) What kind of grappling is in it? (I've heard things like heel hooks and kneebars are in the system)

Just about none, really. As has been mentioned, the rise of MMA has pushed some schools to add a grappling curriclum. And several techniques are defenses against standing grabs, or use standing grabs. But really the lack of any committed grappling is Kenpo's biggest weak spot.

Then why do they talk about heel hooks and takedowns?

Heel Hook is the name of a defense against a full nelson grab. Most of the self defense techniques have funky/odd names, that are designed to somehow make it easier to remember them. The names may or may not sort of describe the main idea of the technique in some way. Heel Hook is a defense against a full nelson, and involves using a type of hook kick to kick up and back into the opponent's knees, followed by raking your foot down the inside of his shin to ultimately roll and break his ankle.

Other techniques involve takedowns as well. But again, it isn't designed to become a full-on grappling match. A tech might involve slamming an opponent down, following with a stomp down into his ribs or some other appropriate target, and then escaping out of harms way. Not a prolonged submission bout.

Then why do they talk about heel hooks and takedowns?

Flying Crane made some great points. I came from an EPAK background, recently making the switch to Tracy, but even in the Parker system, the names of the techniques are often referring to the attack. There is a tech. called Locked Wing. Wing is referred to as the arm and the Lock part is whats happening to our arm.

There are a number of defenses against grappling type attacks, such as a tackle, grabs, etc., however, this is not to be assumed that every Kenpoist includes a ground grappling program. Some cross train, some bring things in from other arts.

Despite what some may say regarding that area of grappling, for myself, I cross train in BJJ to further round out my skill. If some feel they don't have to, thats fine, as I said, I'm doing it for myself.

Mike

Other techniques involve takedowns as well. But again, it isn't designed to become a full-on grappling match. A tech might involve slamming an opponent down, following with a stomp down into his ribs or some other appropriate target, and then escaping out of harms way. Not a prolonged submission bout.


Preach it bro!!! My thoughs exactly! I'm not planning on rolling for 20 min to find a submission. I want to get back to my feet and continue from there.

They are designed to injure the attacker, get out of the grab, and get away without sticking around to "win" the submission fight. This is self-defense. Sticking around to "win" the fight is the realm of prize fighting.

Although this is a bit of a shift off-topic -- Thanks for commenting on this aspect of self-defense. I have been training with Sifu Joseph Simonet (8th Dan -- Tracy's Kenpo) for about 8 months now, and although he does teach devastating an attacker, there is also the element of getting away when possible.

Okay. Back on topic . . . :)

http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm

Look at orange and purple belt.

Oh, heh, I understand.

The requirements you see there are forms and formalized self defense technique. The technique that is called "heel hook" is for a bear hug from the rear (standing). The initial attack is to bring the heel of your foot up into their groin, followed by a stomping motion down to their foot. That initial kick is called a "heel hook" because it is a hooking kick with the heel of the foot.

The tech "arm bar" is a reversal of a cross-body (rt to rt, or lt to lt) wrist grab. The major control mechanism is a standing armbar (or break) followed by elbow strikes to the temple and spine.

Grappling maybe, but standing grappling. I hope that helps.

Lamont

edit: I replied without reading the rest of the thread, looks like the other guys covered it.

Is Tracy Kenpo more technique or striking orientated? What's striking like? More hand strikes? Kicks? And how is sparring?

Please tell me sparring isn't point sparring.

Is Tracy Kenpo more technique or striking orientated? What's striking like? More hand strikes? Kicks? And how is sparring?

Please tell me sparring isn't point sparring.

Tracy's is striking oriented, the techs are examples of what to do should X happens, initial reactions are almost always striking. What kind of sparring depends on whatever instructor is in your area. I mostly see continuous, and traditionally the mix is something like 70% hands/30% kicking but again it varies, my school is more 50/50.

Lamont

What are the most noticed/recognized forms of Tracy Kenpo? (Ive heard evertyhing from Tai Chi to animals)

Also (even though is depends on the school) what is sparring like in a Kenpo school.

And in Kenpo tournaments, what are the usual rules?

tttt

What are the most noticed/recognized forms of Tracy Kenpo? (Ive heard evertyhing from Tai Chi to animals)

Also (even though is depends on the school) what is sparring like in a Kenpo school.

And in Kenpo tournaments, what are the usual rules?

I don't think you can say there are "recognized forms" of Tracy Kenpo. It is at heart an early Parker Kenpo with added elements from Chinese and Japanese sources. Individual instructors may have modified the curricullums, but if it advertised "Tracy Kenpo" at heart it will be very very similar to each other.

Sparring at our school ranges from light touch with our beginners to full contact with our intermediate and advanced students. It can go to the ground, but that certainly isn't the emphasis.

I hate to say it, but most "kenpo tournaments" (and those are few and far between) are usually point.

Lamont

I trained at a Tracy school in Cleveland for a number of years. The head instructor there hated point fighting or "playing tag" as he called it. We did a lot of grappling and mma style fighting as he trained in Bart Vale's shoot system. This was reflected in the techniques with a variety of "add-ons", a submission type move following the standard technique. (Which in kenpo is often overkill. I mean, you've just poked someone in the eye, hit them in the throat, kicked them in the groin, popped out a knee, kicked them in the head, then you're going to armbar them?) It was a way to practice submissions while training the regular tracy technigues.

Regarding overkill, we used to call that adding insult to injury,LOL. Seriously though my understanding is that the myriad of strikes taught is to teach someone to go until the attacker stops. In other words negating the "one strike,one kill" mind set that was pushed so much back in the day. To further break it down, if my punch to the solar plexus does'nt stop the attack maybe my elbow slam will, or then maybe my back knuckle, or maybe my front kick, or maybe etc.,etc.,etc... It makes perfect sense to me.
1stJohn1:9

Regarding overkill, we used to call that adding insult to injury,LOL. Seriously though my understanding is that the myriad of strikes taught is to teach someone to go until the attacker stops. In other words negating the "one strike,one kill" mind set that was pushed so much back in the day. To further break it down, if my punch to the solar plexus does'nt stop the attack maybe my elbow slam will, or then maybe my back knuckle, or maybe my front kick, or maybe etc.,etc.,etc... It makes perfect sense to me.
1stJohn1:9
Keep going until the threat is neutralized. Much how we train at work. My old kenpo teacher used to say that the complexity of many of the techniques was to teach the body how to move and respond. The important thing was not responding to an attack with a technique; the important thing was responding to an attack effectively.