A long time ago, I put up and maintained a site to warn people about a fake Shaolin master in Buffalo, NY, namely "Si Tai Gung" David "Davyd" J Moerler. (See www.BuffaloTaiChi.Com/dragonsong (http://www.BuffaloTaiChi.Com/dragonsong))

I just found out he is still recruiting people into what went from a school to a cult. I just found out that sometime in the last number of years he started pretending to have a lineage in Tibetan Buddhism! He's even "ordaining" students who think they are the real thing. Very sad. It's also ironic because he didn't have any more than cursory knowledge of Buddhism when I first met him, even before his stories about being a Shaolin priest started. (I was always the "spiritual" one in the group with knowledge of Eastern religion, and he never had any interest in Buddhism except as a historical dressing to make Kung Fu more interesting for people like me.) But starting a religion is even more of a power trip than being a Shaolin Grandmaster, and apparently was the right sale for the right people.

Which brings us to what is now called "Song Mountain Monastery" (ie. the basement of his house at 41 Caroline Ave. in Depew, NY, a suburb of Buffalo), teaching "Nine Heavenly Dragon Gate Kungfu", a rehashing of what was taught before, but with a slightly different story, about a "secret" lineage.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=122250580

The front man for this group is now "Ngakpa" Tony (Fucina) -- a student who started just before I left the school (which I foolishly started for him here in Buffalo in 1993 while he was still in the Navy). The others who were around when I was there now hide in the background, and even Tony does not reveal who his master is publicly as far as I know, perhaps due to my fraud alert saving too many people in the past.

The sad part is that Tony was in high school at the time, fell in with a fantasy we'd all be grateful to believe in if it were true, and really may not know that is't just David's fantasy. He apparently takes Buddhism very seriously, which I respect and applaud, but doesn't realize that even if SOME of what he is learning is accurate -- and like me proabbly studies much on his own -- what he is learning frrom David is blanketed in countless lies (that is, what isn't ripped off from obscure books David may have come across, similar to his habit of teaching "secret" techniques and styles later found to be from videos).

I can only imagine what he's been taught about who and what he is, not ever stopping to realize there's no basis for believing in credentials that mysteriously can never be verified. And I'm sure he's come across where I publicly proved all previous credentials false, but for whatever reason didn't accept it. Like any cult-like group, I'm sure he was taught not to trust anyone who doesn't accept (or rejects) his master's claims.

I guess this is frustrating to me because -- I don't want to use the term "wasted" because it was an important part of my life -- I lived a lie for over 5 years, half as long as Tony. He is now at the age I was when things turned for the worse and I started background checking everything. And I doubt I will even have the opportunity to find out if he believes the lie or just accepts it for his own reasons. But either way, he will have to deal with the consequences of people like me finding out the truth and making it known publicly. He's representing (knowingly or unknowlingly as I once did) a fraud -- a mini cult, and even if his knowledge is useful to himself and others, he will have to decide if the end justifies the means.

If he really is for real (in honest intention if not lineage), I can only pray he values the Dharma enough to be do what it takes to be certain of the truth, knowing the consequences if he is wrong. At which point, I'll put the tea on.

Well I will say there are some PRETTY big differences between Tibetan and the Shaolin flavor of Buddhism, so it is more than a bit strange to have a Tibetan Shaolin.

I went to college with both Ken and David back in the 90's. David's martial art career is an interesting read.

What basement dojo is complete without the Klingon battle blade? Take a look at the photos on the myspace page. LOL. Posers.

Mod Note

Thread moved to Buffalo Tai Chi

Andrew Green
MT Technical Admin

Wow, thank you for bringing this up and to my attention. This is right in my backyard... Wow... really... no other word can capture my feelings right now...
That was a nice bat'leth though, haha

Follow-up note:

Before I knew who he was, I messaged Tony through the MySpace site -- he got back to me the other day. He remembers me, and that I am "obsessed" with discrediting his master. There was probably truth to that at one time, especially at the time I knew him. But this really isn't about me and David, but something bigger -- the goal is truth and warning, not wrongful defamation of character of an individual. He'll figure this out if the time comes he gets caught in the crossfire.

I can't tell where his head or heart is at, but I think he believes what he is doing is for a higher purpose (spreading the Dharma), even if I can't tell if he knows his lineage is fake. If he does know, all I can say is the ends may not justify the means, as he doesn't understand he's doing unecessary harm with the good, especially to the reputation of authentic Buddhists.

Just so everyone knows, I wont be hunting down these guys at their venues or going out of my way to deal with them. There are so many other bad fish in the sea, too, and I don't want to spend my life being that kind of fisherman, or wasting my time trying to right one wrong. Besides, the ethical considerations of fighting lies that are giving meaning to some people's lives is a no-win situation. So the most I will do is make sure the fraud warning stays accurate and available to those who are looking for or willing to find out the truth.

Hello,
My name is Tony Fucina, the head instructor for Song Mountain.
For anyone interested in learning about Song Mountain from those who are a part of the school, please check out our blog at http://www.myspace.com/songmountainmonastery
and also at http://songmountain.blogspot.com (http://songmountain.blogspot.com/)

We have posted a brief intro to our history, and will be posting an faq, addressing many of the questions that may come up for those unfamiliar with us, and would like to know more. Ultimately, who we are is what we do, not what others think of us.
Thank you for your interest,
Tony.

The current head of our Art, Davyd Moerler, met his teacher in a hospital on Long Island when he was 12, in 1983. He studied at the school very devotedly for 6 years, becoming the lineage holder and inheriting the Art at the age of 18.

Dude...come on.

Dude...come on.

Blotan, that's putting it mildly... `studied at the school very devoutly', eh? :bs:




Hello,
Ultimately, who we are is what we do, not what others think of us...
Tony.

Now why would you say that? Just what do people think of you, since you raise the point? And why might they think that... whatever it is you're alluding to? :EG:

I'm sure none of it seems rediculous to people who really want to buy into it, but ...

I spoke directly with close friends and relatives of Daivd Moerler (not "DAVYD", btw), and he trained in martial arts mostly on his own but with a couple friends during high school, but NEVER in an actual school. These are people who love him, have nothing against him, and didn't even know about the stories until I told them.

As for the request to move Tony's posting to another area, he is more than welcome here, and I ask that his posts not be moderated if possible. I for one have no interest in censorship, as only with truth AND lies can one find out which is which. Besides he's being genteel at this point, and I respect that, especially if it means his ignorance is honestly inintentional.

However, I would wonder if he's read their own previous versions of their "lineage" in their own words, as I know for a fact when Tony started training there was no talk of Tibetan Buddhism, just "downloading" of information to his master from China over telepathy, stuff which later I discovered was from videotapes he bought from Green Dragon Studios. He did claim to be working actively with them at one time saying they acknowledged him as Shaolin, but a letter from the head of their school that I can post proves otherwise.

Tony, some people may buy your story -- even you -- but a number of people know for certain that you can't argue the facts in the light of day. I have always looked forward to that chance to set the record straight and end all this.

Reality Check Question to anyone in their school:

Have you been able to confirm or learn ANYTHING at all about your roots from anywhere outside of David and his immediate followers? Real information, not rumors or insinuations of connections to the real world. Is there ANY source of information that gives him ANY credibility AT ALL? If so, I will gladly -- and publicly -- concede the point.

There's plenty of authentic Tibetan Buddhism in upstate New York. Temples, study groups even a couple good-sized monasteries. A student with a little bit of drive and curiosity wouldn't have to go too far to see what real Tibetan Buddhist practice is like...

I just read their "history" ... it's half borrowed and half made up. David conveniently refers to things that might be historical as if he had some connection. And he blows it off by saying no one could have made it up. Well ... guess what?

Make no mistake. I am calling them out. I have enough observations, logical arguments, and documented facts to ignore Tony's ill-fated hope that this can be turned into a difference of opinion. I have no opinion of the value of what they teach. I am simply calling them blatant liars, which can and has been proven. Hiding behind what they think is useful or true does not change their origin, and they have no right to bank on false credentials when dealing with the public. That is an insult to everything they claim to stand for. So I perhaps indulge a bit too much once more, to make this cledar to all who read it:

Important points:

(0) I was there before Tony came around in 1995 as a neighborhood teenager. David entrusted ME to start a public school called "Shaolin Nine Dragons" around 1992 and yes, he called himself a Shaolin Priest. When I asked why he didn't tell me, he said I never asked and spellbound as I was with my deep friendship and respect for what I had learned, I suspended my disbelief. I was responsible for the school records, history, philosopy, and created all the original written materials from David's notes. And getting information on lineage was like pulling teeth because he always dodged questions, and gave inconsistent answers that I unknowlingly worked with him to "correct" the inconsistencies so people would buy it. I made him justify the lies with more elaborate ones and then swallowed it whole. So in a way, I am partly to blame for this mess, creating a legend and selling him to others like Tony with the credibility of my own honesty.

(1) I wasn't someone who toyed around with martial arts with him. I learned whatever I could and took it gravely seriously, but at the same time I was a den mother for him, keeping him out of trouble when I could. I was his older brother and yet he was my teacher ... a strangely contradictory but loving realtionship. Not meaning disrespect or insult, but he was somewhat immature / irresponsible (even more than I was naiive and greenfooted about the world), and didn't survive his first year at college for just that reason. We did some wild stuff together and went through a lot of growing experiences in a short time, but I was the cosmos to his chaos, which says a lot since I was hardly a model of order myself. Maybe neither here nor there, but I say this to show that the idea he is some reserved enlightened guru is just plain not credible to people who actually KNEW HIM instead of his current legendary pseudo-spiritual persona. Boy do I have stories! I look back warmly on them still, putting the bitterness of larger context aside.

(2) With my head clear now and looking back, he was never Buddhist. David had some vague understanding of Eastern religion, but really wasn't interested except in as much as he would sound all mystical to appease my won interest in such things. I clealry knew more about Buddhism than he did, as well as Daoism, though I was hopeful and expected him to have some secret insights which he was eager to supply in bits and pieces, many of which I discovered were from commonly available sources. However, I suspect he must have read up a lot to pull off the current con this well. Ironically, he played the role of Born-Again Christian while we were in college together, and claimed he was a satanist when he was younger. But there is no telling what the truth is with him. (We wont even get into his stories about NY City gangs and mafia family connections ...)

(3) He does not know Lin Quei. He had ABSOLUTELY NO TIES with the Chinese part of his family. His Chinese mother was adopted into a "white" family and died when he was very young. He was raised by his aunt and uncle and lived with his cousin. I've talked to his family and friends, and he never had any contact with any such realtives he could have learned any "family" style from.

(4) He says his teacher was Tan Nie Kho. I not only know who he is referring to, but contacted him years ago. I don't know if he is still alive today, but as of then, he NEVER HEARD OF DAVID. However, a close friend of David's told me they visited his school for a demo once. One of the styles David claimed to know was actually not a style at all, but the name of one of the techniques used in their school. That's the kernal of truth in the field of lies.

(5) There is no such thing as an undocumented lineage. If there was, no one would be able to prove who they were, and the reputation of any such lineage would always be suspect. Tony may do some "research" about some lineage that may be real, but I guarantee he will never find any connection with David.

(6) His true legal name is DAVID, not "DAVYD". He started spelling it that way sometime in the early 90s, as if it was always that way, and claimed his Chinese name (which does not exist) to be Nu Nei Choo Yang Fu, which he claimed meant "master of unmarried women" ... whatever. He went by the title "Si Tai Gung" and I believe he still does.

(7) His story about his roots changed many times. Here is from their site circa 1997, which in various details is halfway in between what they claim now and what David first claimed when things started to get strange while he was in the Navy:

Quote moved to separate post for clarification (below)

So there you have it. If you want to know the truth, simply going to the group of controversy for information is like saying "Okay" when someone says "You can trust me ... just ask me and don't listen to anyone else because only I know." Silly, isn't it?

Here's an open invitation ... if anyone from "Song Mountain Monastery" is open-minded and has enough integrity to consider information outside the group's control, they may contact me. I welcome it. I have no desire to badmouth what they believe. In fact, if they are sincere about the Dharma and wish to spend their lives on such a path, then we have something in common. This isn't about some silly "my kung fu is better than yours" or "your beliefs are false" -- it's about the corrupt origin of the teaching, which cannot be trusted in whole even if true in part. My contact information is no secret.

Those without skill or truth, fabricate and proclaim, their voice speaking loudly.
Those with skill and truth, allow them to speak for themselves.

The path to enlightenment often involves wandering through the darkness.
It is good to find light (http://www.buffalotaichi.com/dragonsong/).

Those without skill or truth, fabricate and proclaim, their voice speaking loudly.
Those with skill and truth, allow them to speak for themselves.

I appreciate the sentiment, but it's a two-edged sword.

The most successful cult groups have a satisfying "product", which is why they are successful. And a kung fu school who can beat other schools in competition does not attest to their moral character or leadership's honesty in such a way.

Tony's teacher has hijacked the Dharma and "traditional" kung fu for his own purposes, like a thief who charges admission to a gallery of beautiful objects he has stolen and polished. The beauty may be true, but it is used to buy respect for the one holding it undeservedly. And you can't be sure which objects are fakes ...

Old claims from circa 1997 Website:
Si Tai Gung Davyd J Moerler
Personally trained in Foo Joon Lin Kuei, consisting of survival skills, self defense and various wilderness Skills and Chinese folklore of Southern China's origin. Over twenty years experience in the martial arts, eleven in teaching, Sole founder of Shaolin 9 Dragons Kung fu as a conglomerate of several Shaolin and various other Chinese arts and Sciences pieced together without reduction in order to create a complete martial and health art to enhance quality of life and refinement of spirit in the Shaolin tradition. A disciple and Priest of Shaolin under the Diamond School of Natural Shaolin Arts, in Chan Buddhism, ordained minister backed by Sacramento Ca. There is difficulty in New York State and its
recognition of Buddhist and Taoist philosophies. Within the 18 Classical Weapons of Chinese Kungfu we offer 52 variations. I am also qualified to teach varieties of Indonesian weaponry .

Trained under Sifu Tahn Nie Kho founder of Night Leopard Strikes form the Cave Kwoon to attain a Fourth Level Black Sash in the following: Ho Mei Pei ( Shaolin art that stresses large circular movements, powerful striking, advanced weapon work with carry over into empty hand fighting sets). Hao Peng ( Shaolin art specializing in eight gates, angular and indirect attacking methods such as groudfighting, contains Northern Monkey, Northern Dragon, Five Elements and the Nine Emotional Fist) Hung Pei ( Stresses Five Animal influence, Nature Fist Boxing, a large quantity of Chin na and throwing arts ) Guru Pentjak Silat Serah also awarded by Sifu Tahn Nie Kho, an abstract Indonesian art form consisting of breathing exercises, transcendal and imitative meditations to reach higher consciousness, Fighting theories and concepts mainly, only a handful of actual prearranged techniques.

Black Sash Wing Chun under Master Jonathon Goh, a small variation of Moy Yat style of Wing Chun. This style stresses close in fighting techniques heavily reliant on the hand techniques and foot work accompanying and maneuvering for proper angular attack.

Yang and Chen style Taijiquan under Master James Ho and a number of his associates, we teach four complete hand forms including applications both for health and self defense. Also as part of the Taiji curriculum both static and fixed step pushhands as well as a Taiji Jiann Set (double Edge sword) and a push hands form. Later training will be made in the Shaolin Modified Yang Set and the Taiji Darn Dao ( saber ) will be offered as they are currently under study by myself, Kung fu is a lifelong learning process.

Tong Bei Quan , Seven Star Mantis were both studied under Master Hau Se Fong, my teacher's teacher, as well as advanced weapon sets in Shaolin Kung fu. Under his tutelage, I am able to teach the following animal styles, White Ape, 5 Family Monkey, Seven Star Mantis, Yin & Yang Mantis, Snake, White Cobra, Golden Python, White Crane, Golden Leopard, Bear, Scorpion, Tiger, and From 9 Classical varieties of Dragon 27 of the 36 variations . Our non-animal essences include Nature Fist, 5 Element, Beggar's Fist, Drunken Style and Drunken Eight Immortals.

My personal experience has also drifted into the Japanese arts of Yokonshu ryu Ninjitsu and Aikido which I have an honorary black belt and black belt respectively in. In the past I have also studied Shadow Eagle, Choy Lat Fut, Hung Gar, Heaven & Earth Hsing I, and Pa kua Chuan but none to any significant rank at this time.

The training of Kungs or Great Skills as they are often called requires total dedication and are offered to our most trusted students at the advanced levels. these include Iron Palm, Iron Vest, Muscle Tendon Change, and Stone Dragon. As head of this system I have studied nearly 30 of these Kungs and allow training in them after the above four have been studied.

Important to note is that at this time, it was just a martial arts school with little or no religious implications. That's why my recent discovery that he slowly transformed it into what it is today is so concerning. He must have seen what people wanted and created the fantasy for them over time.

He also said back then he's developing it based on what he knows. I was the one who recorded and organized his earliest lists of techniques and skills he planned to include in different levels of training. He DID piecemeal this from scratch, and there was hardly any mention of teaching particular styles early on. There was no intention of becoming a "such and such" school. It was HIS creation -- very eclectic though mostly TCMA style techniques. Now he adds one lineage after another. If you think the above list is long, you should read the new list of "titles" and "lineages" that may not have been made public yet.

And it wasn't some continuation of school he had to pass on, though he used the idea of making such things available to the public "for the first time" an exciting idea later on. Sorry to say that Tony isn't the first person to think he's bringing some secret style to the world. But now it's repackaged as a particular school instead of David's own system, which early on David made clear that it was. So the idea "his school" was involved in Chinese history -- or anything before 1992 -- is simply not possible. It didn't exist.

It was around 1992 that he told me Shaolin asked him to start a school. He was in the Navy, so it was my job. And I did, right here in Buffalo. Wrote the manuals, got the t-shirts made, did all the classes in coffee shops, parks, wherever. Apart from David Davenport in Ohio, I was the only person actively teaching for years, until David's friends from the Navy settled up here too. And some of that is my doing as well, having introduced Sean Garbach to the mother of his son David (yes, a namesake), who was a dear friend whom I called sister. This is likely the reason David settled here afterwards, as perhaps it was partly because this was a haven for him when he left his (first) wife and (twin) children in Florida for his current wife, whom I introduced to him when he came up for a seminar / demonstration I put together.

I could write books on the personal and school history, or rather already have enough notes now that I think of it, not to mention countless details in my own memory. My accusations are not random attacks. They are a long story that is part of my own life.

Update: I just received contact from someone David Moerler played around in martial arts with in Brentwood high school, and like the others who knew him when he was supposedly at temple, they find it hard to believe it's the same person. If I have their permission, I will post more details. If not, it will be one more thing in my files for if there's ever a frivolous libel lawsuit against me.

Update:
I am still really weirded out by all this. Even just the timeframe how he could convince people he did all this.

And:
... WE DID NOT GO TO ANY SCHOOLS AT THAT TIME. DAVE ME AND TWO OTHER FRIENDS SPENT JUST ABOUT EVERYDAY TOGETHER 11 & 12TH GRADE. I HAVE PROM & GRADUATION PICS FROM HS, BUT THAT'S ABOUT ALL I HAVE. WHEN I MOVED THIS PAST YEAR I WAS THINKING OF DAVE BECAUSE I FINALLY DUMPED ALL THE NINJA PARAPHERNALIA WE USED TO MESS AROUND WITH. I LATER STUDIED JIU JITSU FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS AND REALIZED HOW FUNNY WHAT WE USED TO DO WAS. WE USED TO SPAR AND KICK THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER, IT WAS FUN. HE INVENTED BACK THEN A KICK CALLED A CLOUD KICK ...

Like other's I've talked with, they miss David and have no idea what to make out of any of this. If he ever gets to meet David in person again, I can't imagine how that would play out, especially in front of people in the "monastery" ...

I appreciate the sentiment, but it's a two-edged sword.

The most successful cult groups have a satisfying "product", which is why they are successful. And a kung fu school who can beat other schools in competition does not attest to their moral character or leadership's honesty in such a way.

Tony's teacher has hijacked the Dharma and "traditional" kung fu for his own purposes, like a thief who charges admission to a gallery of beautiful objects he has stolen and polished. The beauty may be true, but it is used to buy respect for the one holding it undeservedly. And you can't be sure which objects are fakes ...
Truth as well as understanding is often a three edge sword.

Phyical strength is fleeting.

Those of strong character will eventually find their way to the light of truth. those who lack it receive their just reward. The thief takes that which he does not have and lacks the means by which to create himself. Those who follow the thief deserve his ultimate fate.

Is the lesson clear?

You may ask "Do you mean not to expose fraud to the light of truth"?

No. Like mold and fungus, fraud can not thrive under bright light and purity.

Be careful however, lest your desire for right, leave you tarnished.

You will understand this.

The fraud and the blind however, will not.

Hello,
My name is Tony Fucina, the head instructor for Song Mountain.
For anyone interested in learning about Song Mountain from those who are a part of the school, please check out our blog at http://www.myspace.com/songmountainmonastery
and also at http://songmountain.blogspot.com (http://songmountain.blogspot.com/)

We have posted a brief intro to our history, and will be posting an faq, addressing many of the questions that may come up for those unfamiliar with us, and would like to know more. Ultimately, who we are is what we do, not what others think of us.
Thank you for your interest,
Tony.

I have no stake in this matter. But I must tell you that after reading the accusations posted here, it was your post that convinced me that they were true.

Certain claims have been made by the subject of this thread. They were made freely and in public. Now they are being challenged and debunked in this thread.

You may think that you are taking away the heat by pretending to be interested in answering questions. But to the eyes of people like me, it is obvious that you are merely trying to sweep things out of the public eye.

If you want to really help, then reasoned debate backed with proof for the claims that have been made would help. But your actions so far been right out of the playbook for frauds and cults that some of us have seen on the internet. If you do not want us to think that is what you are, you had best stop acting like them.

My name is Sun Mones. I first found Song Mountain Monastery nine years ago.
I had done an exhaustive research into the world of Chi-Kung, Taoist alchemy,
and ,martial Kungs. This research consisted of rare books inside the
University of Buffalos library that weren't allowed in general circulation.
But one of the librarians was a friend of mine, so I had access to lots of
rare out of print publications. I considered myself intellectually aware of
the esoteric aspects of chi/alchemy but lacking any real teachers. My main
focus was to try and find a martial based Iron shirt instructor. The Iron
body skills interested me most. I thought I was never going to find such
instruction in Buffalo. By sheer coincidence I found Song Mountain, as welll
as a Iron body teacher.
The first day I met David Moerler I was unprepared for it. As I was
driving over to the meet him I envisioned a Kung fu character with a long
flowing beard and classical martial outfits. Instead he was a guy in his
late 20s, strong , with an accent from my native NYC. His wife and child
were normal looking people. If I had met him and his family anywhere else I
would never say here is a Kung fu Grandmaster. The "Monastery" was not like
a backdrop from a Run Run shaw movie. It was his basement, complete with a
washer/dryer and a stereo blasting speed metal. This was light years from
the projection I had on my ride to meet him.
However, my thirst for true teachings had found something. He graciously
began my instruction right away and even gave me a demonstration of Iron
Skill by bending a razor sharp spear on his throat. To say I was shocked is
putting it mildly. To actually find this skill in Buffalo Ny was one
thing...Until I saw it I wasn't even sure if this skill was just pure myth. I
joined the school and have practiced Iron skill ever since.
Which brings me to the point of my letter. I was in the school for 7
years, living in his home at times, babysitting his kids, attending classes.
Never once in all those years did I ever hear about any lineage holders,
hear the phrase Vajrayana, or Ngak Phang, or the word Tantric. For seven
years I never even knew the Diamond Sutra or Heart sutra were in the
schools teachings. I knew that the school was a mixture of Buddhism, Taoism,
Chan, and Confucian training. But exactly what that meant was never
something I really wanted to put the effort into asking and finding out.
For 7 years Davyd Moerler and his head student Tony Fucina taught me. I
paid dues when I could, and when I couldn't they never denied me teachings .
Si Tai Gung Moerler has never at any time demanded or manipulated me for
allegiance, money, or anything else. He has always maintained the role of a
Grandmaster who never needed outside validation, and takes refuge in the
teachings.
SO...in my 7th year with the school I took the vows to be an ordained and
initiated monk within the Song Mountain Monastery. It was a profound
occurrence that to this day permeates my mind, body, and soul. I feel the
blessing of ordainment blossoming within me daily. I am and was a very
intimate person within Song Mountain Monastery.
and guess what...it was still a bit of time after my ordainment that I
ever heard the words Vajrayana. I had no idea that what I had joined was
something called Vajrayana Buddhism...all I knew was that I had been
introduced to something perfect beyond mind, words, space and time. It
seemed like overnight that the school was talking about Vajrayana this and
Vajrayana that. My reaction was one of not quite sure of what was going on.
I asked Si Bac Fucina why I had never heard anyone speak of Song Mountain
being Vajrayana . He replied that it takes time for a the teachings to
unfold. He said that Si tai gung waited to talk about these teachings until
people were ready to receive them and practice them in earnest.
For my own part, if I had known 8 years ago the true depth required to
reach self mastery I wouldnt have stayed in the school. Si Tai gungs
instruction was precise and exact, teaching me enough so that I could reach
the next level smoothly.
Recently I have read accounts of people on the web saying that because
they hadn't heard of vajrayna teachings within Song Mountain while they were
involved in the school, that obviously it must be a trick. My response is
that for 7 of the nine years I hadn't heard of it either, but looking back I
can see that I was being prepared to able to learn the exceedingly fast path
of Vajrayana.
I have also heard people asking if any of Si Tai gung students have ever
had the lineage validated outside of the words of David Moerler. Its
actually funny to me. Vajrayana is such a difficult path that it is
impossible to fake. The process of letting go of illusionment and realizing
the reality that truly is has to some degree occurred in my life. The
unfolding of the teachings within my being is all the validation I ever
needed. You cant fake that. It never occured to me to ask another Vajra
teacher if my Vajra teacher was a quack. I knew what I was learning was
real. But if anyone out their would like to know, yes I have spoken with a
few people from other lineages of Vajrayana. One dear friend has been a long
time martial arts brother of our school who hails from the Nyingma sect.
Another Vajra teacher came to our school to have an exchange of teachings.
He is currently one of the members of the Dali Lamas inner circle.
Also people have asked if any of Davyd Moerlers current students have had
his involvement in Tan Nie Khos school verified. Once again, the Grandmaster
is the holder of the teachings, he is the one I went to for all the
teachings. But just through sheer amount of time in the school...yes, I have
personally met some of his martial art peers from his base school. Yes his
story is true.
In conclusion, a Ngak Phang Vajrayana school is not like other schools
that open their doors and welcome everyone in. Our school, like our
teachings, is a living process. Our Grandmaster exercised patience and
timing so that students would be ready to receive the core teachings to
their full potential. I can understand if former students are claiming
fraud. He waited and revealed the right amount for the benefit of his
students.
If I can aid anyone in learning more about Song Mountain Monastery please
contact me at my personal email megasolus@hotmail.com.



sincerely, Sun Mones

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/style_emoticons/default/koolaid.gif

I wonder, is he still defrauding his friends (http://kentropolis.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=717&postcount=5)and destroying their businesses?

It is interesting what comes up from a good google search on peoples names and other applicable datum.


I shall quote the masters of metal now.

We thank you for the cool aid, reverend Jim
We're glad to leave behind their world of sin
Our lifeless bodies fall on holy ground
Rotting flesh, a sacrificial mound

Were you our god or a man in a play
Who took our applause and forced us to stay
Now all together we lived as we died
On your command by your side

Guyana in the Cult of the Damned
Give us your word for the grand final stand
Guyana in the Cult of the Damned
Give us your word for the grand final stand

In the Cult of the Damned we all worked the land
Too afraid to look up we all feared his hand
Hurry my children there isn't much time
But we'll meet again on the other side
Be good to the children and old people first
Hand them a drink they're dying of thirst

Bigfoot Bigfoot thrown in a well
Pulled under water screaming like hell
He told us life was just a hotel
Time to check out when he rang the bell

Mother, Mother

The weak minded, deserve their fate.

Drink up.

If I can aid anyone in learning more about Song Mountain Monastery please
contact me at my personal email megasolus@hotmail.com.

sincerely, Sun Mones

Well, Mr. Mones, since we're speaking frankly here :)...

...I'm wondering just what you could say in correspondence at your hotmail email account that would actually answer the multiple reports made available to us on this site that your, um, `chief inspirational figure', let's call him, Mr. David Moerler (or is it Davyd?), has cheated numerous friends and partners and has fabricated large portions of his public history?

Can you actually answer the seemingly well-supported allegations made in this thread and elsewhere that Mr. Moerler has displayed despicable personal and business ethics in his dealing over many years? Exactly what can you say, in response to the detailed firsthand reports we've been made aware of about Mr. Moerler's apparently totally unscrupulous behavior in his involvement in the MA business, that might change our minds? I'm not talking about your giving a disciple's totally unqualified litany of praise for his guru's character. That in fact is the problem—your post shows you to have such a worshipful view of Mr. Moerler that your own beliefs about him have no credibility; surely you can see this! What I'm asking is, do you have any actual evidence that would make the allegations against him less credible? Because if you don't, I'm afraid you're wasting both your time and ours with posts such as the one you sent.

Hold on everyone, before it gets ugly.

Sun Mones just gave a detailed account of what he believes and has experienced. And he was sincerely polite to me, someone challenging his whole life as a lie, and that takes maturity no matter who is right or wrong.

In fact, I was him many years ago.

I studied many things at an early age and really wanted to find someone to learn more from. I could say I was ready for a "master", and one appeared. Except with David I was more interested in friendship and access to new knowledge was just a benefit and good reason to get to know him better.

I saw the spear bending demonstration, too, along with David hitting the edge of a sharp sword against his forearm and a bunch of other things he used to show off to people.

But anyone can do it. There are tricks to these things, and the secret is that when you do something that looks dangerous you don't question it because you are too scared to try it yourself. I wasn't and did many of these things myself, en with the same sword in one case, almost thinking I had special powers, too. (The iron palm training and other things could very well be real. Then again, I can research, learn, and teach all sorts of things I never learned from a master if I so chose with great results. But I digress...)

I saw things that I cannot explain to this day ... except as psycholgoical phenomenon. Every fringe group has followers who swear they saw their guru levitate or read minds or disappear or whatever. And many of the mind tricks he used he either taught me outright or I figured out on my own quickly, but dismissed it as fighting tactics to use on other people, not to buy credibility. He studied psychology on his own ... I still have a few of his books he didn't want back. And he experimented with mental powers and the occult when I knew him, though more for fun or to show he could get people to react in certain ways.

The more I think about it ... I studied cult phenomenon over the years but didn't make the connection when I should have. I know how experiences can be created that are so real that nothing esle can compare to it. Sun says his experiences couldn't be faked, when I know darn well that things like that CAN be fabricated anmd are all the time. These days I've been researching a particular cult group that specializes in creating highly subjective experiences of consciousness and even enlightenment -- for a hefty price and unquestioning loyalty. But there are other cults where the founder is not a con man at all, but a disturbed individual who believes their credentials or even what they just made up a couple years ago. And people will alwyas be willing to find and accept a "Deep" reason for what other people would see as seriously wrong. That is a warning sing of mind control.

But I WILL NOT personally discount Sun's experiences, as rationally suspicious I may be. (How could I quantify my own satori experience when I was 13? It seems silly to even tell anyone I had one since it has little context in anyone else's life, and I'll be damned if I expect my saying so to be a point of credibility or authority.) Sun may have been ready for a legitimate spiritual experience, simply in the circumstances under a false master. It's the student who determines the result, just as I developed some serious skills under David and later on my own even better ones IMO. Either way, the moral of the story is that you can't argue over someone's subjective experience. You can only look at its context and question its significance or relevance to the facts of the outside world.

And I ask Mr. Mones to tell me specifically who showed up claiming to be from David's own school and if you truly heard them give the same story or if you were told they were from hsi school after they left, not having discussed it in front of you. Please answer honestly for your own sake.

Also, I've met many a man from the Dalai Lama's "inner circle". One locally (also named David) even claimed to have met him in Tibet, which would have been physically impossible for his age considering the date of exile. Plese give me his name and I will verify his credentials, publishing my findings here.

Other than that, I really don't know what to say except that if I didn't know what I researched and documented myself, and didn't understand sociological psychology, I wouldn't write off Sun's testimonial. And I am very interested in finding out the detials of his facts and reasoning, and if they are legitimate, I will acknowlege it as so. Rediculous or not to some of you, I will give benefit of the doubt when new information comes into play, even to the point of temporarily doubting my own memory and reason.

Sun may have been ready for a legitimate spiritual experience, simply in the circumstances under a false master. It's the student who determines the result, just as I developed some serious skills under David and later on my own even better ones IMO. Either way, the moral of the story is that you can't argue over someone's subjective experience.

But the point, I would say, is not the validity of this individual's spirtual experiences. His experiences have to be valid in the very basic sense that he's experienced them; whether or not they reflect what he believes they do about the structure of the world is something else again. But that's not really the issue, one way or the other.

What is the issue is that, as a result of your very own OP, certain matters came to our attention about Mr. Moerler which have subsequently been supported by various other people's testimony. The post from Mr. Mones appears in a context involving Mr. Moerler's integrity. So far as I can see, no matter how sincerely Mr. Mones believes in his own interpretation of his experience, the sincerity of his belief is strictly speaking irrelevant to the question of whether the things that you and several others have alleged about Mr. Moerler are true. There are matters of fact involved that have nothing to do with Mr. Mones' spiritual life. And since the thread is really about those matters of fact, I have to say that I don't see any relevance in Mr. Mones' comments whatever. But I have the very strong impression that he believes his experiences represent a challenge to the allegations made, when in fact they do nothing of the sort. Whether or not business partners were cheated and betrayed, and self-presentations made that were grossly false, has nothing to do with the phenomenology of religious experience....

I can't read posts sadly that have no paragraphs, my eyes cross...

Well, Mr. Mones, since we're speaking frankly here :)...

...I'm wondering just what you could say in correspondence at your hotmail email account that would actually answer the multiple reports made available to us on this site that your, um, `chief inspirational figure', let's call him, Mr. David Moerler (or is it Davyd?), has cheated numerous friends and partners and has fabricated large portions of his public history?

Can you actually answer the seemingly well-supported allegations made in this thread and elsewhere that Mr. Moerler has displayed despicable personal and business ethics in his dealing over many years? Exactly what can you say, in response to the detailed firsthand reports we've been made aware of about Mr. Moerler's apparently totally unscrupulous behavior in his involvement in the MA business, that might change our minds? I'm not talking about your giving a disciple's totally unqualified litany of praise for his guru's character. That in fact is the problem—your post shows you to have such a worshipful view of Mr. Moerler that your own beliefs about him have no credibility; surely you can see this! What I'm asking is, do you have any actual evidence that would make the allegations against him less credible? Because if you don't, I'm afraid you're wasting both your time and ours with posts such as the one you sent.

Exile,

The point of taking it to e-mail is a standard one of people who look bad or are loosing an arguement.

They get you to be quiet on the forum because they have you going private.

It makes them look like they are addressing the issues but only as a gentleman and in private. In reality people like this are still playing games, even if they do not know they are. Yes there are people who "Believe" what others have to say, but on the internet, from experience I have to ask myself is not the David himself or someone just posting for him? This way it looks like with numbers that this guy is not so bad. Like said a standard tactic of the internet.

Personally I feel sorry for him. Be he a student and believer or just poor David who is trying to defend himself.

My name is Sun Mones. I first found Song Mountain Monastery nine years ago.
I had done an exhaustive research into the world of Chi-Kung, Taoist alchemy,
and ,martial Kungs. This research consisted of rare books inside the
University of Buffalos library that weren't allowed in general circulation.
But one of the librarians was a friend of mine, so I had access to lots of
rare out of print publications.

Complete bollocks.

I would bet a month of the money I make (which would probably be about a year of yours) that we could never get you and David in the same room together. Nor could we get you past people who saw both of you and convince them you were seperate people.

The idea of a fraud getting a hotmail account and signing on under another name is soooooooo done to death.

By attempting to fool us by signing under another account, all you have done is increased our contempt. We may not be able to prove it anymore than we can send OJ Simpson to jail, but the people here with more than one brain cell are instantly suspicious of anyone claiming the special access to obscure texts as you claim. If you were the expert you try to claim, you could prove the you exist. And you will give reasons for why none of us can prove the you are a real person and not David posting under an assumed name.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. Or prove me correct by ignoring this or giving an excuse to avoid proving you are not David. I know that you will never be able to prove that you are not David. I look forward to excuses or just plain ignoring me. And I think I might take a bit of pleasure in pointing out that fact it you do.

The following is a very informative link. www.buffalotaichi.com/dragonsong/Original_Fraud_Alert.pdf

Exile,

The point of taking it to e-mail is a standard one of people who look bad or are loosing an arguement.

They get you to be quiet on the forum because they have you going private.

It makes them look like they are addressing the issues but only as a gentleman and in private. In reality people like this are still playing games, even if they do not know they are. Yes there are people who "Believe" what others have to say, but on the internet, from experience I have to ask myself is not the David himself or someone just posting for him? This way it looks like with numbers that this guy is not so bad. Like said a standard tactic of the internet.

Personally I feel sorry for him. Be he a student and believer or just poor David who is trying to defend himself.

I know that you will never be able to prove that you are not David.

Yes... I think you both have nailed it.

David Moerler and Associates have been using Ebay for years to rip people off with copies of copyrighted material from other instructors.

These nitwits even started to copy my teachers tapes as well as carrying the complete greendragon catalog. I bought a tape that I thought was an original and then realized it was a new copy. Davids account was banned by Ebay and then the Song Monastery people started selling the same tapes and had the exact same catalog as Davids old account did.

I complained to Ebay as well as informing all the teachers involved. Take a look at his feedback and you will see the history of all the copies these people have sold as originals over the years. http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=songmountainmonastery&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true&seeallfeedback=See%20All%20Feedback

I also emailed the supposed Dharma Priest Master Tony Fucina directly from my Ebay account and asked him how a supposed Buddhist priest can feel good about pirating other peoples videos for profit.

This was his response:

Hello Mr. Dale Dugas,
My name is Tony Fucina. i am the head instructor at Song Mt. the student in charge of ebay came to me about your email. i understand your concern, and it brought to my attention several matters. My student has been selling used videos, buying "lots" from a few suppliers and creating a veritable flea market of videos coming and going through our hands.we have had and still do have several copies of hundreds of bought tapes.however, in looking into the matter, it is not allowed to sell used footage in the manner we have been doing.i also would not like to be associated with the potential stygma that comes with where this store has been led.We are discontinuing the selling of used material, and will only sell new material from companies we have wholesale relations with.our apologies in this matter, and i personally thank you for your hand in allowing the student to bring this to my attention, so we may remedy it.
Thank you for your concern and efforts,
Tony Fucina.

I like how when accused he puts his tail between his legs and claims a student was in charge of the ebay acounts and apologizes rather than answer the questions put to him. Sounds like he has a nice little cult going on in NY state...

Nothing but garbage from these people. I feel sorry for any who have paid them a cent and become intiated priests. They are not recognized by any formal organization that we know of. If they are I would like to talk to the head abbot/abbottess and see what is wrong with them to allow such horrible examples of humanity claim association with them.

They have no web presence nothing but some lame myspace page. I like how this whole association hides. When you have things to hide you hide. Why not come out and prove us all wrong. Oh but then you open yourself up to the world to see you as the frauds and deceitful beings that you truly are.

I like the Nine Heavenly Dragons Kung fu system they purport to teach. Seems like they have ripped off my teacher yet again with posing as knowing something. Anytime these people want to come out and prove they have REAL kung fu I will be happy to take a drive to NY state as I live in Massachusetts. I would like to cross hands with this clown Tony Fucina. All the robes and funky Chinese uniforms do not make you good at a martial art.

You know not one iota of the Dharma that you claim to teach and spread. You spread nothing but misinformation and ridiculous claims to having been trained by a real master who is a known fraud and con artist.

I and others on this board would very much like to meet up with you and see your skills. This is not a death match challenge. This is an old school call out to see if you can back up all these claims to having any martial arts skills at all.

Complete bollocks.

I would bet a month of the money I make (which would probably be about a year of yours) that we could never get you and David in the same room together. Nor could we get you past people who saw both of you and convince them you were seperate people.

The idea of a fraud getting a hotmail account and signing on under another name is soooooooo done to death.

Mr. E. -

From my preminary research a while before he posted here, I found Sun Mones to exist as a real person with interests in Taoism, martial arts, and other things. There is a local person by that name that has appeared on the Internet as early as 1998. Further checking shows a middle initial "A" and a current age of 32, while David (the "venerable" teacher) should be 37 if I remember correctly.

David Moerler and Associates have been using Ebay for years to rip people off with copies of copyrighted material from other instructors.

...

Hello Mr. Dale Dugas,
My name is Tony Fucina. i am the head instructor at Song Mt. the student in charge of ebay came to me about your email. i understand your concern, and it brought to my attention several matters. My student has been selling used videos, buying "lots" from a few suppliers and creating a veritable flea market of videos coming and going through our hands.we have had and still do have several copies of hundreds of bought tapes.however, in looking into the matter, it is not allowed to sell used footage in the manner we have been doing.i also would not like to be associated with the potential stygma that comes with where this store has been led.We are discontinuing the selling of used material, and will only sell new material from companies we have wholesale relations with.our apologies in this matter, and i personally thank you for your hand in allowing the student to bring this to my attention, so we may remedy it.
Thank you for your concern and efforts,
Tony Fucina.

Their current account seems to be a replacement for their old one (now closed), where according to a number of customers, they sold blatant copies. They were not used videos, but copies where some actually had parts missing.

Let's repeat that ... this isn't about USED legal copies, but COPIES, as in ones not made by the copyright holder / manufacturer.

So how could someone buy large lots of merchandise and not notice or care to sell bootlegs? It's like buying privately taped songs or movies from the radio or TV at a garage sale and selling copies you make of them online. And I don't mean otherwise unavailable or public domain stuff.

I have to say in this case that I don't think Tony is being honest. This is just my opinion, but I think he is pawning off the responsibility on a student instead of his master. And if you contact Green Dragon Studios (in Ohio, with whom David once falsely claimed to have a professional martial arts relationship), you would probably find their sale list over the years is identical to what was purchased from the source. The same for Wing Lam I'm guessing.

I challenge Tony to reveal his supplier(s) of these products and prove it was not them making the copies. Or will it be someone David told Tony he met on the street in Chinatown that can't be traced ...


SIDE NOTE: According to an email I received, Tony denounced his master's involvement in the monastery to someone recently, claiming David is no longer involved in order to convince one of their fundraising venues that accusations about their credentials were irrelevant. This of course suggests that Tony actively lied or mislead someone, and if this is true, I hope it was done out of his own confusion and not conscious deception.

There was also some information forwarded to me about a long list of lineage claims Tony says he holds, but it was too ridiculous to post here, as it is just as likely a plant to make me look silly as it could be real. It was like something out of a comedy routine, satiring the claims from old kung fu movies or a megalomaniac esoteric cult leader. If I find out it's for real, I'll post it here.

Recieved an email today from someone named Tony from a gmail account.

The address is: Tony [ninegate@gmail.com] I like that its from a Gmail account which means it could be anyone, anywhere hiding and saying whatever they want.

Seems we have struck a nerve with the video pirates and they supposedly want to meet me. Here is the actual email that was sent to me.

Hello Dale Dugas,
i saw your posting on the martial talk forum, and your desire to meet us in person. That is fine by both myself, and my teacher. Perhaps it would be ok to talk in person, over the phone.
Thank you for your time,
Tony.

Now Im assuming this means Tony and his supposed Master David Moerler. How about we get a group of us and come visit and get them on video for the record about all the crap that is floating around the community about them. Let them set the record straight...

What do you guys think? Im up for it.

I think meeting with them would be a great opportunity for the some truth of the matter to be settled. But if you meet the whole school, know that some of them are deeply sincere and need to know the truth, if that is possible, so I would recommend being straightforward and determined in your facts, but not starting with the intention of confrontation or disrespecting their alleged position.

I think you should bring a real Tibetan Buddhist with you, forcing David to find some excuse for them not having the same (inside) information. He always has an excuse for his fabricated view of the world not being verifiable and different from people who actually know. After all I went through with him, I KNOW HOW HE THINKS.

But documenting all this will at least satisfy people in the real world, and maybe a student or two of theirs will realize they've been way too trusting and taken advantage of in the most evil of ways.

It's sort of funny ... I've been talking with old common friends of me and David about what he's been doing and most are almost shocked ... ALMOST. They all sort of suspected it. One especially close to David said "I always knew he would start a cult." I'm not making this up. Another one (my fiancee at the time I was involved) said "I always knew he was a player" and rolled her eyes reminiscing about how David could do no wrong in my eyes back in the day.

Yes, I not only considered him a brother, but I was a blind follower. I just hope it is clear that my motivation is not vengeance, but real sympathy for those who came after me.

Anyway ... maybe we should arrange a time and place to meet them. Maybe we could do this at a local martial arts school, and yes, bring a Tibetan Buddhist with verifiable credentials, as well as people who have learned their particular training methods from more credible sources. But honestly, I am surprised Tony suggested meeting with you, and amazed David would crawl out from under his rock and expose himself to questions and the outside world.

Before I forget:

Reality Check

If David did all the things he said he did before he met me in college, wouldn't that make him the youngest appointed lineage holder in the entire history of Buddhism? Then again I don't want to give him any ideas, or he'll start secretly telling his "disciples" that he's an incarnation of a Lama, along with some story of why he can't prove it or tell the public ...

Tony's Clarifications (from their official blog FAQ) versus the truth he doesn't know or doesn't want to ...

Do you have a telepathic connection, or any connection to a temple or school in China?

No. I have never heard my teacher make such a claim, nor is it any part of our school's claims. If, in the past, some member of our school did make such a claim, they were mistaken, and perhaps confused as to the nature of some of our teachings involving our Pure Land meditation, perhaps not, maybe just confused. Over time, we have had to correct many misconceptions that various students have formulated about us.

This was not an error. Sean Garbach (David's right hand man as I backed away) specifically said in the Fall of 1995 that David explained the Shaolin Temple in China was "downloading" forms telepathically for David to learn and teach. These methods turned out to be from Green Dragon videos.

He also claimed that a bunch of stuff he had left in storage area here during college mysteriously appeared in his living room. He couldn't "remember" where the public storage was so I could not verify he even had one. However, I later found that some of the items "recovered" were in fact bought by him with my credit cards, including a 180 lb. crossbow rifle. I have copies of the signed receipts from the store(s), which includes his wife's wedding ring, also bought without my card and permission.

Do you have a special relation with Sifu Allen of Green Dragon Studios?

Nothing beyond a normal customer, and having written a few letters back and forth. In the past, it was my teacher's thought that it would be nice to open relations with them, as we respected what they taught, and were grateful for their teachings they offered.

David claimed that Sifu Allen had spoken with each other (they had not) and that David had been acknowledged by him as an authentic Shaolin colleague. He showed me clips from a tape of Sifu Allen and a Wing Chun dummy, but otherwise kept them under wraps at first. Now that I think of it, I may remember David claiming that some of the message on the tape was specifically for him directly from Sifu Allen, but he never played that part.

So do you teach their Stone Warrior program? And what is Stone Dragon?

Yes, we teach Stone Warrior, but we have termed it Stone Dragon, as it has been learned and taught through the perspective of our art. Much like the common form Lian Bu Quan can be found in Northern Long Fist, Eagle Claw, Mantis, plus others, where each school executes the form with variance, yet still fundamentally the same. We felt it appropriate to refer it by a different name, to make the distinction between what they do, and what we do, no criticism or sense of attachment, but just as a simple matter of clarification. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful in our eyes to teach a variation of someone else's teachings, yet call it the same name. Of course, we will always keep the history of where the teaching came from, and pay it the proper sense of respect due to those we have learned from.

David hid those particular tapes from us -- until I discovered them. I think it a bit doubtful that he started teaching these things coincidentally at the same time he bought the tapes. It's obvious that's where he "learned" them.

In fact, I just dug in my files and came across a list David made on the computer I bought for him to use for running our business at the time (originally in Wordpad, attached in PDF form). Note the prices after the items and translations.

In your older documents you refer to your art as a Shaolin art, yet in the more current references and articles you avoid the term. Why is that?

That is a very valid question. My teacher did, in the past, refer to our style as a Shaolin art, and our teachings as Shaolin teachings. It was his decision to no longer use that term in reference to our style. It was not a decision to make lightly, nor did it mean anything to our style other than a convention of name. Nothing of substance was changed by the discontinued use of Shaolin, neither was any disrespect to the Shaolin name and heritage intended by this action. If you read our history, you will note that our connection to Shaolin Temple is centuries old, and not really applicable to our current status, other than in the heritage of our teachings. In recent years, more of Shaolin Temple came into the forefront, and monks were gaining more recognition and media coverage. It was seeing the current generation of monks, such as Shi Goulin and Shi Yanming to name just two, to realize that our art had evolved on a different line of emphasis and growth. In seeing this, we realized that the name Shaolin might be confusing with Shaolin Monks doing their art that looked not quite the same as ours. The goal of dropping the name was simply to keep proper respect for the current generation of Shaolin Temple, while still honoring their influence in our art. There are, of course, many correlations and consistencies between the kungfu taught by the Shaolin Monks, (minus the teaching of modern wushu), and our art though.

David specifically called himself a 34th Generation Shaolin Grandmaster and Priest. One story was how he argued with another Shaolin Grandmaster in Florida, which he said was disrespectful since the other person was 32nd generation. There is no ambiguity about claiming to be Shaolin. The web site and numerous materials I have in my possession make it clear David claimed to be directly and formally affiliated with Shaolin. The confusion is in trying to reconcile one false claim with another.

Also, something has changed for David. It is harder to successfully fake being Shaolin since the dawn of the Internet than something more obscure, like ... say ... a secret Tibetan Buddhist lineage.


Tony wants to believe these are misunderstandings or confusions or half-remembered hearsay -- but remember I lived and breathed this stuff. I was there when Tony was a kid (no disrespect intended). I was the SCHOOL HISTORIAN. And I was the one with all the knowledge about Eastern spirituality, not David. And I was also David's first Black Sash, though I rarely wear it. Another stroking of Tony's sense of purpose with a lie about him being first. I still have my teaching certificate from the early 90s signed by David somewhere and I believe it has my rank as such. He is pretending with Tony that this is all new and the school going public for the first time -- again.

But none of that matters to me because Tony is wrong about one other thing. Ego is not an issue with me -- assuming so is too easy a way out of seeing the absurdity of it all. If I thought for a second David held back something from me because I wasn't ready, I would graciously accept it without fail. In fact, I blindly did so for quite a while, wanting to believe I was the faithful and patient student of a master who knew more than I did about such things. It was my humility that kept me from realizing the real reason David didn't go all Buddhist around me was because I had studied such things long before he met me and it would risk me seeing through it.

The facts can be hedged all day long, but the only one Tony is deceiving is himself, just as I did. And if other people continue to buy into this, then someone needs to consider the karma as well as other consequences of all this.

Side Note: I have a video of David from a seminar I organized in April 1994, talking about his Shaolin training during his high school years. I'll have to dig it out and post it if I can. BTW, how many friends and family members of his do I need to prove he didn't have any training? Are they all lying?

I was drawn to this thread because I live near Binghamton, not too far from Buffalo.

It's a sad story. Cults can ultimately ruin lives and families as they strip people of their independence, their will, their soul.

I was drawn to this thread because I live near Binghamton, not too far from Buffalo.

It's a sad story. Cults can ultimately ruin lives and families as they strip people of their independence, their will, their soul.

Yes, cultism is serious business.

But I'm hesitant to call them a cult like I have been. I mean it is likely there is some psychological manipulation necessary to carry out the deception on the part of David and his immediate cronies, but I don't know how cut off from reality they are.

Do they cut off ties from people who don't approve of what they are doing or minimize such relationships?
Are people leaving the group shunned or criticized as unworthy?
Are they isolated, lacking accountability to the outside world, including peers in their claimed tradition?
Are major life choices being made differently because of their beliefs or needing "spiritual" consultation from the guru or group?
Are there confessions of transgressions or guilt over thoughts of criticism against David and the group or doing things against their expected code of behavior?
Is questioning or doubt discouraged or addressed as an evil or flaw?
Are there efforts to reduce "ego" (individualism) and model themselves after an ideal personality type, i.e. David?
Are there re-educated attitudes or beliefs about the boundaries of person, such as private property, sexual relations, diet and lifestyle?
Is rational thought pushed into the back seat, or ignored when in contradiction to subjective spiritual experience?In other words, what are we dealing with here? I specifically asked one of their members to meet with me to discuss these kinds of questions, but have had no response except questioning my definition of "cult".

The thing is that for people to be in a cult (in the general modern sense, not the formal dictionary one), they must not already understand what one is. They must envision something other than what they are doing, or usually just write off the idea that brainwashing exists, mountains of evidence and historical examples to the contrary. Or its redefined so broadly that all religions are cults and therefore making the criticism meaningless.

So are they a cult instead of just a con? I think they are, but to be honest, that is only an educated guess at best.

Cult or not, kudos to you, for exposing a less than honorable situation. After all, martial arts is also about honor.

http://kenville.net/wordpress/?p=41

Interesting coincidental event realted to the topic. This hasn't happened in a while to me, as I sorted out most of the fake teaching the first few years. Who knows how many years it will take Tony and the othrs to fix thier own knowledge base.

The ngakpa bit may be legit but if so, Ngakpa Tony would you be so kind as to tell us where you received ordination and from whom? It is not something one just calls oneself. It seems odd there is no mention of the buddhist lineage on the site. One would expect some ties to a nyingma or kagyu lineage of tibetan buddhism for there to be ngakpas afoot.

For useful info Ngakpas
http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N76_1.php good interview
http://www.ngakpasociety.org/ good overview of traditional ceremonies and services
http://www.ngakmang.com/ preserving Ngakpa culture in an area with a strong ngakpa tradition
http://www.ngakde.org/mainpage.htm ngakpa group in canada

For useful info Ngakpas ...

Thanks. Tony, if you're reading this, please take this seriously. Do the research you are claiming to be willing to do, and be willing to be wrong. You have hinted that it's my ego that wont accept his lineage was hidden from me, yet you are the one willing to believe you are an inheritor of a legitimate system at your age in spite of evidence there is none. But don't make this about you and me -- I have no quarrel with you, only the lie itself.

Ask David the address of his temple on Long Island. If it existed and he was there for any period of time, he would KNOW IT, unless there's some creative excuse he doesn't remember, or why it wouldn't be in municipal records if he does present an address. Please stop suspending common sense and see it for what it is.

And ask David one more time if he claimed it was a Shaolin temple and his rank was in authentic Shaolin. I have proof he made those claims, and when I dig it out, I will show it to you first before making it public if you wish.

You have a chance to honorably save face, move on, and earn the respect that you deserve in spite of all this. I know. I've been there, EXACTLY where you are. And I will help you if I can.

It seems that they have nothing but another MOUTHBOXER who claims to be a Tibetan Buddhist but trains to kill people.

Oh well, the problem is that MOUTHBOXERS have become the norm.

He made mention of wanting to get together or at least talking on the phone.

Have not heard a peep from him or his total fraud of a teacher.

At least they stopped selling Pirated videos on ebay. I contacted Shifu John Allen and let him know about that operation as the material belongs to him

It seems that they have nothing but another MOUTHBOXER who claims to be a Tibetan Buddhist but trains to kill people.
... Have not heard a peep from him or his total fraud of a teacher.

I suggest you call him. Let him know you are serious and don't give him any excuse to back out. The problem is that if I was legitimate I would hesitate to meet with someone accusing me of being a fraud, not just if I actually was one. However, if Tony wishes, there are many "neutral" environments in which you could meet and exchange a show of hands I'm sure.

Personally, I don't consider him a "mouthboxer" per se. He's likely more skilled than his master at this point ... if he wasn't too led astray with unproven fictitious techniques that only work on the unskilled or those expecting them to, that is. But to preserve the con, his "master" may have prohibited or given him some reason not to prove his skills against anyone who might actually teach him that his training is ... fallible.

If you do meet with him, just be aware that he is not necessarily the "bad guy" in this situation -- his master is, and he is just being used, as warm and fuzzy as it can be to believe you're some chosen one. Remember, I've been EXACTLY where he is. Same master, similar rank and responsibilities given to me, different day, different lineage.

When Tony leaves, David will probably start saying he's actually a Hindu priest-mystic of the lost martial arts of Alexander the Great to the next generation. He will spring this on the next trusting guy honored to run his school, who will believe Tony and I didn't know because we "weren't ready" for the truth, and he didn't REALLY say he was Shaolin or Tibetan in lineage. Then again, I'm just waiting to hear he's declared he's the reincarnation of some Bodhisattva, depending on how far gone Tony and the other disciples are from critical reasoning to believe such a thing.

But make this clear:

Sean Garbach, Peter Powell, Jessica (Reese) Moerler (David's wife), and anyone else in the school's adult membership in the early 1990s, including David Davenport, the old teacher of their current student in Kentucky, KNOWS David claimed to be a lineaged Shaolin Priest. If they say otherwise, these people are either BLATANTLY LYING or have selective amnesia and need a smack in the head to loosen things up a bit. And it's even possible Tony was told this too back in 1995, in which case maybe he should be on the list.

Like I may have mentioned before, if I have a chance to dig into my old keepsakes, video evidence will be pending.

http://www.youtube.com/v/MQ7q065_l3M&rel=1&border=0

I usually don't get in on these threads, but check out this awesome video. :lol: I seriously couldn't watch it without laughing histarically. I mean, you have gotta be ****ing kidding me!! :rofl:

There are any number of medications now available which would alleviate the seizures of the unfortunate individual in the video....

That being said, I have rarely seen so skillful a rendition of the secret form against attack by giant pink Tibetan Mountain Bats.... they'e everywhere, EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!

I'm not qualified to judge Drunken Kung Fu...I assume that's what this is?

I'm not qualified to judge Drunken Kung Fu...I assume that's what this is?

Nor am I but the one time I saw the form in person (I spared with the guy as well) it was much faster, much better and not on pads.

If in fact that was suppose to be a drunken form.. but then it could possibly be a drunk doing kung fu I suppose and that would be an entirely different thing

Still have not heard a word from this pseudo master.

It seems they have dropped off the face of the planet.

Oh well, more mouthboxers who can never put up and run when the light hits em....

The frauds have got a new website up and they are up and coming with the rather cult like mentality.

Take a gander at the first page

No references to any known teachers. Just a lot of psycho babble bs.


http://www.ninegatekungfu.com/

These are the same people that sold pirated video tapes on ebay for years.

The frauds have got a new website up and they are up and coming with the rather cult like mentality.
...
No references to any known teachers. Just a lot of psycho babble bs.


And so it begins. I especially like their first line ...

The only official and accurate source of info for Song Mountain Monastery

But you're right ... there's an awful lot I dare them to say that they probably wont about who they really think they are.

And then ... We are a true martial Buddhist lineage ...

I was really hoping Tony came to his senses and stopped playing around with all this crap. The sad thing is that they are building credibility falsely by associating with other Buddhists who are too polite to question the facts behind their otherwise good intentions.

It's a dilemma really ... if they bring people in some way to the Dharma, the lies are more a matter of principle than real concern. They are selling fake goods and services that may be of benefit subjectively even if not objectively.

It still makes me sick, and is a slap in the face for anyone who respects the spirituality they think they are lineaged from. But then again, according to them, I'm disgruntled for not being worthy of having their "truth" revealed to me ... LOL

I'm willing to visit, represting my temple.

It seems that frauds and fakes want so much to be master of the martial arts that they would rather set up shop as fakes than actually master the martial arts.

I still have not been called or contacted in any way as cowards and mouthboxers seem to be who these people are.

They are full of crap and it is very obvious.

Here is the email I sent Tony and CCed to Ken,

Tony,

I am very saddened to see you are still going on claiming to be a real school that offers anything that can be construed as martial arts that have been passed down from a school that can be located and the teacher in question asked. Myself and many others are curious to know more about your curriculum that can be traced to something or someone other than the video tapes you and your teacher pirated and sold on ebay for years making money off the sweat of other people’s hard work.

I am still waiting for the call you promised. Still very much interested in feeling how high your hand is. Im sure it is very low and the same can be said of the fraud you call a teacher, one David Moerler.

Was he the one wearing the white sash in the videos you post on Youtube? If so he is morbidly obese and should get checked out immediately by his personal health care physician as being that big is certainly not healthy.

I will be at this year’s Zhang Sang Feng festival in the Catskills from June 5-13th where I was again invited to teach various workshops. Why not come and show me and others senior to me in the arts these high level skills you and your teacher “claim” to be able to teach to others.
I find you site misleading knowing you and your teacher are making things up and trying to sell them.

You and your teacher should be ashamed to claim ties with Buddhists. Grasping at people and connecting with them does not make you legit. It makes you desperate to try and create legitimacy to your made up art.
Why not come clean and move on. Why not study with a real teacher who knows what he is doing rather than learn from videos and make up your art as you go along?
Again, I and others are very willing to come visit to see if you have any real skill or not.

Be well, train hard

Dale Dugas Certified Instructor
Dit Da Jow Master Brewer

I have tried to email this guy and to no avail. It seems his email address at ninegates is not a good address. I would like to know where did this guy get the name of nine gates? We have a fruad also here in San Antonio,tx. This guy was a kenpo guy from Mexico, then he said lima lama, now he claims to be the first outsider to go to Indonesia and first to be certified in Silat (no style name given). I know this guy is a liar. What can be done?

Ken,

I have studied Buddhism, Taoism, Qigong and Kungfu for over 20 years, I've studied Zen Buddhism in Japan, Shaolin Kungfu, Mahayana Buddhism and Qigong at the Shaolin Temple in New York. I studied Yang style Tai Chi, Hung Gar and Long Fist in Taiwan. I am no where near being a master of any of these things but I've trained under and sparred real masters and enlightened people.

I became aware of The Song Moutain Academy at the same time I became aware of Fraud Watch as I was seeking people to train with and this site seems to be a hub of martial arts activity in the area.

My personal approach to martial arts is that I learn from anyone and being honest with my own faults and short-comings, I don't make a life style out of pointing out other's faults, instead I engage them to join me in sparring training so we can both benefit by the opportunity we offer each other. While I'm grounded in traditional Kungfu, I don't carry the baggage of affiliation or allegiance to any school because all schools and all teachers are ultimately human. Some humans, however, are realized and some are not - still, I don't distinguish, I just try to grow. I'd rather clean up my own back yard than my neighbors.

Being aware of the claims you make about Davyd ( it's his choice how he spells his name ),Tony and the the Song Mountain school, I cautiously investigated the school. I have a good education to help me see how well equipped/ authentic a martial arts school or Buddhist teacher is. Over time, I found that Tony and everyone at the school are very well versed in and dedicated to their art. I have nothing to loose by challenging them with probing questions and I have enough education to understand their perspective on practice and theory. Given time, they earned my respect and I have no doubts in them. If, at some point, I were to find something not "true", it would not diminish the vast amount of teachings or good Buddhist character that they have. What I have to say about them is based on my own unique education in these fields and my best assessment of the group. I am not a puppet, I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm here to report my findings to the WNY Fraud Watch community.

*

Reading the posts here, I wonder if you started "Fraud Watch" because of your obsession with these people? Whatever the motive, you've really painted yourself into a corner. You're reputation, if it is important to you, is utterly wrapped up in your intense opposition of this group. I have never seen any group, martial arts or otherwise, so intensely hounded or persecuted as you do with this group. This not only frightens me but makes me wonder why are you going through all the effort? I understand you had some kind of painful experience, but when do you plan on getting over it? It's one thing to post a warning but to moderate a community and keep an ongoing investigation of your "truth", it's nothing less that Stalking on a virtual level.

Stalkers, characteristically, are people who cannot accept the rejection of the object of their desire. They transmute this pain into an attack. Seeking to build a community to believe in your truth sounds more like it is you who are trying to form a cult. I wonder what is it you really are gaining from all this? Revenge? When will you be satisfied? The pious goal of reporting truth, in this case, appears to me to be a thin disguise. Often the people who are busy pointing out the faults of others are distracting the public from their own fraudulent behaviour.

You have created a Kungfu McCarthyism with your hate-mongering message board. Here, people can speak with impunity, they don't have to be seen or take responsibility for their words, they can make any kind of claims without being challenged or required to prove their claims. We live in a time where gossip and bullying are a form of entertainment in our media culture. I'm affraid that is what this message board is becomming.

So now that I've said these things, based on real experience and education, am I going to be black listed? Am I going to be labeled as " brainwashed"? Am I going to be researched and slandered with a website in my name? Do I care that what people say about me is enough evidence to make it true?

Normally, flaming is not allowed on message boards and most people out of high school are mature enough to know good etiquette online but mean spirited words seemed to be fully acceptable here. At the top of this website it states "Friendly Discussion Forum", why then are you allowed to continue this type of forum?

I think the only truth any of your subscribers are going to find is if they personally attend this school with sincere effort and unbiased mind to test out the teachers and the system. Wouldn't we do that with any school we were curious about? Why does your word alone stand as the ultimate truth on this school?

By sheer volume of what they teach, it is clearly impossible to have picked it up from books ( and who really masters techniques from books, anyway? ). WNY has an incredible martial arts group in it's own back yard and you are warding everyone off from the benefits this school has to offer, you are doing the opposite of helping this community with your fraud watch. That is precisely why I'm posting these comments here. You can't Google The Song Mountain school without getting a barrage of libelous dogma from you.

After a recent visit at the school, I heard Davyd lamenting that the martial art schools in WNY were not more integrated in some kind of co-operative friendship, your site is certainly doing a good job of oppressing this sort of friendship and generally contributing to the paranoia between schools. Why can't we all come together in mutual respect?

You would be doing this community a better service by identifying when or where schools are engaging in unscrupulous behaviour, such as watering down their system, inventing ways to slow down their students to make more money from longer registration fees, bullying, Martial Arts baby sitting "classes", in-effectual Qigong/Tai Chi, giving "free" classes to so called instructors in exchange for them teaching ( Pay them! ), So-called "Black Belt Clubs" that are merely marketing platforms ... anyone who reads the Martial Arts trade magazines knows there are a lot of gimmicks to make money off of pimping their style. I've seen students that have been at the same school for 3 years and still don't have the basics of the style down? Who is standing up for these people? They have no point of reference, they blindly respect their "teacher", they are buying the exotic flavor of martial arts with it's fancy Oriental titles and uniforms... would you loose any friends if you started pointing out these fraudulent activities?

If you are aware of Buddhism and the Law of Karma, why are you setting all this negativity into motion? You're comments demonstrate that you have maybe an academic understanding of Buddhism, so how can you make claims for or against this group and it's teachers without practicing Buddhism and having even a basic ethical grounding. Your hatred has blinded you.

No amount of words will ever replace the authentic skill of a martial artist. I say this on my own grounds, I do not seek nor need the permission to say what I believe - I say: You should hope that your readers do not have the integrity to investigate this school first hand, because then it will be you who is revealed as the fraud.

I do not represent Song Mountain Academy in what I've stated above, and I appologize if anything I said has caused them any damage. I represent decency and it's about time someone stood up to your libelous bullying. We don't live in the McCarthy era, don't start a new one in our martial arts community.

We are not descended from fearful men.

"Those who know, do not speak.
Those who speak, do not know."
- Lao Tsu

Sir:

Your post starts out objective, fair, and well thought out, and then you go off the deep end with preconceptions, misconceptions, and just plain incorrect facts. You are welcome to your assumptions and judgments, whereas I have only focused on facts, being objective based on what I know firsthand, and have even DEFENDED these people's right to their beliefs, school, and opinions.

You are simply barking up the wrong tree, and I must question if you have actually read my posts, site, or know who I am. Rereading such things will make it clear that what you are accusing me of is inconsistent with the truth, personally, dogmatically, or otherwise.

Don't take any of this as an insult, but a learning experience -- if you really want to understand what I have done and said. If your intentions were true, then you deserve a response. So please read below ...

Ken,

I have studied Buddhism, Taoism, Qigong and Kungfu for over 20 years, I've studied Zen Buddhism in Japan, Shaolin Kungfu, Mahayana Buddhism and Qigong at the Shaolin Temple in New York. I studied Yang style Tai Chi, Hung Gar and Long Fist in Taiwan. I am no where near being a master of any of these things but I've trained under and sparred real masters and enlightened people.

I became aware of The Song Moutain Academy at the same time I became aware of Fraud Watch as I was seeking people to train with and this site seems to be a hub of martial arts activity in the area.

My personal approach to martial arts is that I learn from anyone and being honest with my own faults and short-comings, I don't make a life style out of pointing out other's faults, instead I engage them to join me in sparring training so we can both benefit by the opportunity we offer each other. While I'm grounded in traditional Kungfu, I don't carry the baggage of affiliation or allegiance to any school because all schools and all teachers are ultimately human. Some humans, however, are realized and some are not - still, I don't distinguish, I just try to grow. I'd rather clean up my own back yard than my neighbors.

Being aware of the claims you make about Davyd ( it's his choice how he spells his name ),Tony and the the Song Mountain school, I cautiously investigated the school. I have a good education to help me see how well equipped/ authentic a martial arts school or Buddhist teacher is. Over time, I found that Tony and everyone at the school are very well versed in and dedicated to their art. I have nothing to loose by challenging them with probing questions and I have enough education to understand their perspective on practice and theory. Given time, they earned my respect and I have no doubts in them. If, at some point, I were to find something not "true", it would not diminish the vast amount of teachings or good Buddhist character that they have. What I have to say about them is based on my own unique education in these fields and my best assessment of the group. I am not a puppet, I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm here to report my findings to the WNY Fraud Watch community.



This is completely fair. I do not question the good intentions of those who are following them, and living a (re?)created heritage thinking the lineage is real is not a crime. You would know this has been my view if you read carefully, and know that the difference between you and me is perhaps that with me, the ends do not justify the means. There is a such thing as integrity and truth, and it cannot be glossed over with insistent beliefs that have benefit for you or anyone else personally.

*

Reading the posts here, I wonder if you started "Fraud Watch" because of your obsession with these people? Whatever the motive, you've really painted yourself into a corner. You're reputation, if it is important to you, is utterly wrapped up in your intense opposition of this group. I have never seen any group, martial arts or otherwise, so intensely hounded or persecuted as you do with this group. This not only frightens me but makes me wonder why are you going through all the effort? I understand you had some kind of painful experience, but when do you plan on getting over it? It's one thing to post a warning but to moderate a community and keep an ongoing investigation of your "truth", it's nothing less that Stalking on a virtual level.

Stalkers, characteristically, are people who cannot accept the rejection of the object of their desire. They transmute this pain into an attack. Seeking to build a community to believe in your truth sounds more like it is you who are trying to form a cult. I wonder what is it you really are gaining from all this? Revenge? When will you be satisfied? The pious goal of reporting truth, in this case, appears to me to be a thin disguise. Often the people who are busy pointing out the faults of others are distracting the public from their own fraudulent behaviour.


Don't play psychiatrist with me.

You should clean up your own mind's back yard on this one. You have created an elaborate, self-justified, convoluted explanation that once fabricated will make perfect sense to you so that my actions and words are packaged neatly into the category of untrue or irrelevant. That is your choice and I can't help you with that. I hope that you can help yourself.

But you are accusing me of this, so you have a right to my response, which is simply to be fair and face the following common sense:

(1) Over so many years, I have done very little on this issue, and have done nothing to stalk them, though tempted for reasons I honestly enumerated that you are welcome not to believe. I need not repeat them here in detail.

(2) I reported things for people to find for themselves, people contacted me, I set the record straight occasionally, even defended them from black-and-white vilification. The amount of time I spent even thinking about this is infinitisimal, and writing this post constitutes the bulk of the attention I have given it this year to date.

(3) The majority of posts about them are not by me. Others on the web have come to the same conclusions on their own, sometimes not even being aware of the OTHER side of the story I have made available. However, my site has confirmed a lot of people's suspicions, and many have credentials matching your own.

(4) See below ...

You have created a Kungfu McCarthyism with your hate-mongering message board. Here, people can speak with impunity, they don't have to be seen or take responsibility for their words, they can make any kind of claims without being challenged or required to prove their claims. We live in a time where gossip and bullying are a form of entertainment in our media culture. I'm affraid that is what this message board is becomming.

So now that I've said these things, based on real experience and education, am I going to be black listed? Am I going to be labeled as " brainwashed"? Am I going to be researched and slandered with a website in my name? Do I care that what people say about me is enough evidence to make it true?

A perfect example that you are just not paying attention or seeing in me what you want to believe, which is not fair to me, nor to yourself if honesty is more important than belief for the sake of your personal needs:

THIS IS NOT MY MESSAGE BOARD. I am only a moderator, and have never used the privilege in any way regarding any post. Your assumptions are proven wrong by my respect for you as well as my ability to accept dissent. On my "fraud" site, I did not refrain from publishing ANY of the negative comments I received, though they were admittedly few.

Normally, flaming is not allowed on message boards and most people out of high school are mature enough to know good etiquette online but mean spirited words seemed to be fully acceptable here. At the top of this website it states "Friendly Discussion Forum", why then are you allowed to continue this type of forum?

I think the only truth any of your subscribers are going to find is if they personally attend this school with sincere effort and unbiased mind to test out the teachers and the system. Wouldn't we do that with any school we were curious about? Why does your word alone stand as the ultimate truth on this school?


(First, for the record, this is a thread, not a forum ... but would you prefer I replicate this on another forum?)

"Ultimate truth" ... are you mistaking the firmness of my position? I am not willing to take back things I have documented as true. But honestly, did I ever make claim to any sort of ultimate truth? The opposite in fact. Again, it is like you edited out in your mind almost everything I've ever said about my claims. Saying a fact is proven of definitive is my assertion, and my right to assert it. But there are more facts to point out:

(1) I never dissuaded anyone from doing their own research. I begged Tony to do his own apart from anything I said. I still have hope for him, though the road will be rough and few would be strong enough in spirit.

(2) I explained my sources when possible, and made it clear what was my opinion or personal belief versus what was fact. Repeatedly. No flame wars, no name calling, no irresponsible presenting of my beliefs as fact.

Does this sound like I'm spewing propaganda? Or is it just offensive on an emotional level? Can you honestly accuse me of this EVEN WITH your assumption it is all false? No, you can't. My integrity in how I have handled this information is not in question, regardless of which side you believe. In fact, I believe accusing me is more telling that YOUR objectivity is in question, since the real dispute is over conclusion, not fairness. If I was that way, I would just insult you or dismiss you as brainwashed as easily as you dismiss me as the weird hybrid of psycho-emotional-religious conspiracies you've made me out to be.

So disagree with me. But don't call me unfair or hate-mongering because other people here aren't as forgiving or open-minded as I have been. Remember, I've been the voice of giving benefit of the doubt, softening people's harsh opinions here, where if you were even slightly correct about my motivations that would not be the case. I simply challenge, reason, and assert what I myself know.

By sheer volume of what they teach, it is clearly impossible to have picked it up from books ( and who really masters techniques from books, anyway? ).


David did, along with constantly practicing with certain high school friends. I developed and "mastered" techniques the same way David did, and with solid results. He introduced me to the what he relied heavily on in the early days -- Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do (ask him about "RONAII") -- and it served us both amazingly well in our own paths. But that is another story for another time.

"By sheer volume of what they teach, it is clearly impossible" to have been trained in or mastered even a fraction of what they claim! Listen to the people who criticize their videos on other forums -- people who KNOW those forms from actually documented lineages. Frankly, I have a higher opinion of David's skill than those more qualified to judge from experience.

I've found in martial arts you can get way ahead of the pack with some basic skills, and canconvince anyone outside your style you're "good" -- even if you're honest and tell them you're not really a master. So I dare you to find one master in any style they teach to evaluate the authenticity and depth of the forms, etc..

But from my view, it is not coincidence that anything they do is modified or originates from some non-verifiable lineage so that it is immune too any criticisms. Sort of like what you are doing to me, illogically trying to discredit my reasons and facts by psychoanalyzing my intentions. That rationalization is a tactic common in abusive relationships and cults. Give this some thought, and if it helps to eliminate such mental distractions, pretend it didn't come from me or ask a second opinion from other people versed in psychology.

WNY has an incredible martial arts group in it's own back yard and you are warding everyone off from the benefits this school has to offer, you are doing the opposite of helping this community with your fraud watch. That is precisely why I'm posting these comments here. You can't Google The Song Mountain school without getting a barrage of libelous dogma from you.


Yes, that is a legitimate opinion. And people get gains in their lives from coercive cults, too. Whether that makes people who warn about the negative of false aspects of something evil is up for debate. You know what side I'm on.

As for libelous dogma? Never heard of such a thing. And if you mean libelling dogma, you aren't the only one who has studied world religions, and I'm not the one claiming a false lineage. Accusing me of lying about something I can prove (and would love to in front of a judge) sort of makes YOUR statement libellous, doesn't it? But no offense is taken. This is emotional for you, no doubt, just as it once was for me, a bias I admitted from the start.


After a recent visit at the school, I heard Davyd lamenting that the martial art schools in WNY were not more integrated in some kind of co-operative friendship, your site is certainly doing a good job of oppressing this sort of friendship and generally contributing to the paranoia between schools. Why can't we all come together in mutual respect?


Pardon me, but ... let's just say you're not from around here.

There are many martial arts associations locally. There always has been. So why will Song Mountain never actively participate? Are they afraid of scrutiny? Are they afraid people who know the things they claim will find them out? All I've done is sped up the process. If you are legit, or at least have enough value to be considered so, then what are you worrying about? In that case, you should thank me for getting people outside your system to confirm what you are doing is correct or at least of the value you so adamantly believe.

(I am willing to see if that happens, but no matter how good you re-create the styles, I still have clear evidence there is no lineage. Like I said above, depending on what is more important, truth or pragmatism, my actions are harmful or helpful. maybe both, and I have to live with it.)

And show me paranoia between schools in WNY. There are some longstanding schisms here and anywhere else, but this is the first anyone has hinted of any such concern. Just curious who planted that piece of "logic" ... I can't help but feel it's another effort to vilify what I'm doing and talk some "sense" into me. honestly, though, that's like calling someone protesting a scandal in a church promoting religious bigotry.


You would be doing this community a better service by identifying when or where schools are engaging in unscrupulous behaviour, such as watering down their system, inventing ways to slow down their students to make more money from longer registration fees, bullying, Martial Arts baby sitting "classes", in-effectual Qigong/Tai Chi, giving "free" classes to so called instructors in exchange for them teaching ( Pay them! ), So-called "Black Belt Clubs" that are merely marketing platforms ... anyone who reads the Martial Arts trade magazines knows there are a lot of gimmicks to make money off of pimping their style. I've seen students that have been at the same school for 3 years and still don't have the basics of the style down? Who is standing up for these people? They have no point of reference, they blindly respect their "teacher", they are buying the exotic flavor of martial arts with it's fancy Oriental titles and uniforms... would you loose any friends if you started pointing out these fraudulent activities?


Funny, in many of these you list, that's exactly what I'm doing. I've spoken out against these in general as well. But it's funny how the target of protests often ask their opponents if their time wouldn't be spent better protesting something else.

And the answer is simple: I speak that of which I know. I don't know the abuses or issues of other schools first-hand. But you must have missed what I have lamented over myself for so long, namely that I am in a unique position in virtue of my past and have the RESPONSIBILITY to set straight something I wrongly (even if unknowingly) promoted. Regardless of the cover story you've been told, I was in the exact same role Tony is in, but in 1994.

(Which reminds me, I finally found the video of David's claims that year. I don't know how good his memory is, but you may want to ask him if he's willing to change his story or pre-emptively explain away what he said before I make it public.)

If you are aware of Buddhism and the Law of Karma, why are you setting all this negativity into motion? You're comments demonstrate that you have maybe an academic understanding of Buddhism, so how can you make claims for or against this group and it's teachers without practicing Buddhism and having even a basic ethical grounding. Your hatred has blinded you.

You best not go there. You illusion of me as some hateful instigator is far from the man who considers his karma as carefully as I do. And if you knew me, such statements about my ethical grounding and living Buddhist principles would be a joke for many years to come. But alas, I cannot make anyone escape from the Maya they place upon people for their own purposes, consciously or otherwise. {sigh}

No amount of words will ever replace the authentic skill of a martial artist. I say this on my own grounds, I do not seek nor need the permission to say what I believe - I say: You should hope that your readers do not have the integrity to investigate this school first hand, because then it will be you who is revealed as the fraud.

You are once again proving you did not truly read anything I wrote, confusing me with someone who is judging your art. I am only pointing out the dishonesty, not the value. I leave that to others, and have no concern if they investigate firsthand, since their conclusions have nothing to do with being a conspirator in a lie. You can have the best light-switch in the world, but if it isn't UL rated and you put a stamp saying so, you are a liar. That is fraud. If it were otherwise, as puerile display of hands would be your suggestion, so I doubt you disagree once you actually give my words some thought.

I do not represent Song Mountain Academy in what I've stated above, and I appologize if anything I said has caused them any damage. I represent decency and it's about time someone stood up to your libelous bullying. We don't live in the McCarthy era, don't start a new one in our martial arts community.


You just contradicted yourself, with demands for witch hunt against the belt mills, while I am only speaking out against ONE GROUP I know personally and was a party in -- and long before you ever heard of them.

But you are due your say, just as I am due mine. You have received no censorship from me, nor has anyone else, and never will. Sorry to disavow your hopes as to who I am. "Libellous bullying" ... just ... wow.

So many of these straw men are getting me down. For one final example, you criticize me for questioning how he spells his name, when that was never my issue. My point is that he one day simply decided it was ALWAYS spelled that way, just like he decided he was ALWAYS of Tibetan lineage, or Shaolin, or any number of other things in this or that year. Only after my "publicity" did he water down many of his stories and claims to make it look like I "misunderstood" him. Quite telling when you have the originals.

But my challenge is why he hid under a rock and took down websites after I found them and reported on them. Hiding from what you claim is one man's persecution? How can you accept having only "my" side of the story if you're not afraid of dialog? Is this pretending to be "taking the high road" while something you claim is a lie goes unchecked? Doesn't sound like someone with nothing to hide. My guess is that only when someone like Tony (who doesn't believe he has something to hide) came around was it more damaging to NOT go public (again, for the third or fourth time under yet another name).

The only reason Tony is publishing what he can to answer people's questions and my claims against them is he honestly thinks I'm lying, or at least convinced himself enough to convince others. Which from my view, is a crime against him, and before this is over, he will feel all the more betrayed the longer he is led along. let's hope he will be as fair and non-confrontational as I have been.

So to recap, you've justified yourself by attacking me on the grounds of ...

Perceived libel
Bullying for entertainment
Hateful vengeance
Not letting go of a trauma
Not acting in Buddhist ethics
Creating paranoia and bad will
Muddying a message board
Stalking obessively
Hurting the public by my existence on Google

If there are any that I've missed, or if we are now (hopefully) over the ad hominem portion of this debate, you are welcome to continue this, publicly or privately, here or anywhere. If I have time, I will respond. My apologies if I came off as a prick. It is rather late and my personal and intellectual honesty is a grave matter of honor with me, which is something I find hard not to defend, however unecssary it may be.

Normally, flaming is not allowed on message boards and most people out of high school are mature enough to know good etiquette online but mean spirited words seemed to be fully acceptable here. At the top of this website it states "Friendly Discussion Forum", why then are you allowed to continue this type of forum?

THIS IS NOT MY MESSAGE BOARD. I am only a moderator, and have never used the privilege in any way regarding any post. Your assumptions are proven wrong by my respect for you as well as my ability to accept dissent. On my "fraud" site, I did not refrain from publishing ANY of the negative comments I received, though they were admittedly few.


A few small points in response to the 2 comments above.
The "Buffalo Tai Chi" forum is a hosted section of MartialTalk.
While answering to our hosted forum TOS, it is run as it's moderator sees fit. If that means it's stricter or looser, that is their call.
We host a number of forums, only a few are public.
Ken moderates the BTC forum as it's his section.
A difference of opinion in a hosted forum does not usually mean a ban from MT.

In regards to terms such as 'libel', 'slander', etc. All posters are responsible for their postings, and we comply with all properly executed court orders.

The "Buffalo Tai Chi" forum is a hosted section of MartialTalk.
While answering to our hosted forum TOS, it is run as it's moderator sees fit. If that means it's stricter or looser, that is their call.
We host a number of forums, only a few are public.
Ken moderates the BTC for