A recent scholarly article in Physical Review Letters by two U. of Arizona mathematicians states that the cracking sound of the whip is made not by a sonic boom of the tip, as long believed, but by one of the loop in the whip, which can travel at a speed as much as 10x that of the whip tip. This is attributed to the tapering of the whip.

Thank you very much for that enlightening little tidbit of information :rolleyes:

I'm sure it will come in handy in my daily, everyday life... ;)

The whip is a Western weapon! It's also used in Sayoc Kali (www.sayoc.com), for example. As to knowing why it makes that sound, well, that's just a bonus!

Fellow Artists,
The loop is indeed all important to the crack, but it need not be present. I'll post something over at whip enthusists about this. I sense a great disturbance in the force. Arnisador, could you get me the link?
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Originally posted by Hollywood1340

I'll post something over at whip enthusists about this.

What is this site?


Arnisador, could you get me the link?
Support your local Whipster!

I read it in the Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com). It was in the 17 June 2002 issue of Physical Review Letters (under Nonlinear Dynamics, Fluid Dynamics, Classical Optics, etc.). The abstract is here (http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000088000024244301000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=Yes) but sounds different than the summary from the Chronicle. You'll need a university library to get the article for free.

I downloaded the article at the college. In the midst of systems of differential equations and conservation of momentum it cites a whip videotape by Mark Allen! Their conclusion: The loop causes the sonic boom, as it travels down the length of the whip. It can make the tip finally move up to 32 times the initial velocity of the whip in the hands of a skilled whip user. They concentrate on "noise-making" whips as used to herd cattle. The tapering of the whip is crucial.

Yes, yes, we've known that for years. Without a loop you have no crack. Sadly the loop still eludes we with my ten foot latigo in multiple sequences, but I'll find it! No prob with either of my eight footers.

arnisador "The whip is a Western weapon! It's also used in Sayoc Kali, for example. As to knowing why it makes that sound, well, that's just a bonus!"

the latigo is also a weapon of the filipino martail arts althought today it is mainly found in family systems, different types of whip material are used, from horse whips to the buntot pagi, which is a stingrays tail... the buntot pagi in zamboanga is also a mystical weapon believed to be able to scare and harm evil spirits.

thanks

terry

I've bene thinking about a comment a Sayoc Kali instructor made, that training in the whip helps develop useful attributes for knife fighting. I want to experiment with that.

I've bene thinking about a comment a Sayoc Kali instructor made, that training in the whip helps develop useful attributes for knife fighting. I want to experiment with that.

i dont know, maybe i think everything invovlving combat benefits each other most of the times, but whip and knife, there is also latigo y daga, remember the whip is a long range weapon and the knife a short range weapon.....

I think the theory was about how it strengthens the wrist/forearm and improves the quickness/"snappiness" of movements.

I have hard the term boom and also the use of 32X and or 10X.

I thought the noise came from passing of one item over another and creating a vacuum effect, not a sonic boom. The sonic boom would occur at the speed of sound is about 343 meters / second. This is fast. IT is about 750 mile / hour. This means the arm would have to be moving 20 miles per hour at the 32 X and 75 miles per hour at the 10 X.

I always thought the sound came from the same effect as snapping our fingers. It is the air filling a small space that has been empty relatively quick. Now I do not know about whips. just had this idea or explanation in my head. I never ever thought that the tip of the whip would go that fast.

Just my thoughts
:asian:

Start with the shoulder, bend the elbow snap the wrist, form the loop, break the sound barrier and make it crack. Or wrap. Or cut. Much fun to be had by all. Want to learn more? Click HERE (http://www.bullwhip.org)
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Originally posted by Hollywood1340
Start with the shoulder, bend the elbow snap the wrist, form the loop, break the sound barrier and make it crack. Or wrap. Or cut. Much fun to be had by all. Want to learn more? Click HERE (http://www.bullwhip.org)
Support your local whipster!


You see I understand the physics of speed and the larger the circle the faster it goes.

I understand the principal of the whip and the downhill efect of the weapon as it goes out.

I just never thought it was fster than the speed of sound.

hi guys

here in OZ there are plenty of stockmen who use whip cracking to help round up their cattle and there are plenty of shows every year which involve whip cracking as part of the competition,
i will ask one of them what they think about the cracking effect..

also isnt there a cracker or popper attached to most of these type of whips?, what does this do?


thanks

terry

Yes, the popper magnifies the sound considerably.

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, the popper magnifies the sound considerably.

This is why I thought of only the Vacuum theory. THe popper displaces the air and snap / pop is from the air from the standard air pressure, entering the "Empty Space" just left by the popper.

:D

That's the first time I've heard that theory as it relates to whips. There is a pretty good section on the physics of whips at the site I linked to above.
Support your local whipster!

I saw a preview of the new movie with The Rock, Rundown (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0327850/).

He fights someone who uses double whips.

I have been training with 6 footers for a little bit. It is very humbling. When I first tried I nearly destroyed Ray Dionaldo's dojo:eek:.

You can learn alot about common whipping like abanikos and how much you muscle your technique.

The whip senses fear and knows a fool so please use safety glasses, a long sleeve shirt, and long pants when you practice.

Once you learn the basic cracks then the challenge is to make combinations, which is what I am working on now.

If anyone is interested in obtaining 6ft Florida style nylon whips, let me know and I relay the details.

Palusut

Eskrima Digest currently has a fairly interesting thread involving the whip.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
Yes, yes, we've known that for years. Without a loop you have no crack. Sadly the loop still eludes we with my ten foot latigo in multiple sequences, but I'll find it! No prob with either of my eight footers.

I am pleased to report I now have a four crack sequence with my ten foot :) :) :) :) :D Maybe I'll find a way to post a vid sometime. For those intrested in buying some nice one, I suggest this site (http://www.westernstageprops.com)
Support your local whipster!

Great website.

I have a 10' Austrailian by Terry Jacka and an 8' nylon by Krist King, both from that site. Great whips.

My favorite though is an 8' 12 plait, kangaroo hide "American Style" bull whip by Mike Murphy, it's the most "lively" whip I've ever used.

So far, I can only pull off a three crack sequence. Love to see the vid.



-Jackal

The sequence I have is forward, overhead, but somehow I can get four out of a "two" crack sequence. I get my first crack on my upswing, my second on my forward, my third in my transition (It's all in the pause) and my forth in my overhead, I think I can do five if I reverse my overhead ;) I'll see about that video. I personly use the good ole standby of the 10' American Latigo Swivel handle, from the site (They have it out in black now (Droooool!!!!)) I also have a cheap eight foot, my first "real" whip, and a deadly accurate eight foot two tone "masters" whip (No fall for...um..all I'm gonna say about that) that is real fun with news paper and close cuts. I think my next project will be cutting paper plates in sequence with that one :)
12' is my next one I think. I do love to wrap.
Wrapping this up! (Swish....CRACK!)

P.S. How does the Nylon handle? Wraps? Cracks? Cuts? I'm thinking of getting one.

Nice. How do you form the loop on an upswing? My interest is peaked. :cool:

I used to have a 10’ swivel latigo but it would never listen to me :( . I need the fixed handle for control.

The particular nylon that I’m using (Braided Nylon Bullwhip - 8’ non-swivel handle. Code: WNB) is great. Especially since during the winter (a little over a foot of snow here in NJ ) it’s the only one I can still use outside without worrying about it getting water logged. It’s a LOT stiffer than latigo or kangaroo hide which means that even when broken in, wraps are pretty difficult to pull off. The stiffness, combined with shot loading, makes for extremely brutal cracks and cuts though. It handles differently than the other whips but is probably the best cutter that I’ve seen. The greatest difference that I’ve felt is that, compared with leather, there’s significantly less weight at the end of the thong (shot loading runs about ¾ of the thong’s length) so you lose fine control when trying to perform subtle cracks (also why wraps are tough). I’ve seen some awful nylon whips but the ones offered by WSP are well worth it in my opinion (plus, you can’t beat the price).

Start with the whip at six, right? As you bring it up, snap your wrist. Kinda like a downward pointing sidearm crack, just on the vertical plane, instead of the horizontal. I belive it's called the underhand ;) You can wrap with this as well, I like it for low obscured tree branches. I find that using a swivel handle has it's disadvantages and it's advantages (Doesn't everything?) Overhead and reverse overhead are less technical in nature, I don't roll my wrist over as much as I should. I picked that quirk up from Karen Quest when she was in town and gave me a lesson, very cool. And I got to play with a Morgan, one of a pair of matching six footers. (moooore drool!). Also the heavy weight took some getting used to but now it's a thought and it goes. Now I must have it in black! I'm thinking 12' for wraps. Also the latigo is a great way to build shoulder strength! Was playing with it in my basement last night (Not recommended). Indy IV comes out in 571 days. I can't wait.
SHAMELESS PLUG: For more info on Indy IV, check out this link (http://www.angelfire.com/hero/hollyworld)

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=283121

While out to the Riddle of steel this year, I met a man named Scott Homschek from Pa. who makes "neck whips". They are 39-41 inches long, braided from leather lacing into mini-bullwhips that are worn around the neck.

The whips have a "tail" that snaps, "pops" and the other end has an integral loop which the tail passes through to secure it as it is worn around the neck under a shirt or jacket.

All

Pencak Silat Pamur also uses the whip. In Indonesia it can be called a pecut but as with most things it probably comes in several names.

Not trying to detract from the current conversation, just an FYI.

Sean

www.combat-silat.net

ebay whips.

Has anybody bought any of the whips for sale on ebay? there are cheapos for under $10, some that claim they are better than the import cheapos for under $20, and "custom made" whips at various price ranges. How do you know if your getting a good whip, or a least one that will work?

Thanks

Andy

I would stay away. I prefer Mark Allen myself for my whips. A good rep is always a good thing when buying whips. A few updates ;)
1. I got my crack sequence to seven
2. Picked up that black 10'
3. Started the Delongis System (Videos)-If you as a martial artist do not have these...you should! It's changed the way I use a whip 180 degrees. Granted it's for the long whip, but really helps to establish a feeling of sensitivity for the whip and how it moves. You can find it at www.delongis.com (http://www.delongis.com) Also a demonstration by Mr. Tom Meadows of his short whip work on Vol. 2. Highly recommended, can't enough really.
Support your local Whipster!

Finally broke down and decided to try that "under $20.00 ebay whip. I figure if its no good I'm only out 20. I'm a beginner and probably couldn't tell the difference from a $200 whip, but the thing actually works! I was pleasantly surpised when I heard the first "CRACK", (my neigbors were also surprised, but not so pleasant). Maybe if I get any better i'll move up to a better whip, but i must say that this is a good, inexpensive entry level whip for anybody wanting to try it out.

Thanks for sharing the info. on it. I wonder how long it'll last!

Hollywood1340,

Thanks for the link to the videos. I'll have to pick a few of them up. Now that the snow is gone and the ground is dry, I can take the whips out for a walk or two again.

I still can't get a crack off an upswing but I've developed a pretty mean backhand crack with no windup.




arnisandyz,

It's always good to start out with something inexpensive until you see if it continues to hold your interest. If so, and you're ready to upgrade - BEWARE! I hear that smoking crack is cheaper but nowhere near as addictive.

If you haven’t visited www.bullwhip.org, give it a glance.

Like Hollywood said, you can’t go wrong with Mark Allen - www.westernstageprops.com

Mike Murphy’s whips are AWESOME - www.murphywhips.com - but a little on the expensive side after he won 1st prize for bullwhip AND stockwhip at the 2003 Sydney Royal Show. I’m glad I bought mine right before he won. :) It’s still my favorite whip.

Have fun!

J,
You form the loop the same way as if you were doing a forward crack. Imagine pitching a softball underhand, straighten your arm as you reach full extentsion. but remember to keep your arm extended, If you bend it, you'll work the tip, never fun. The underhand wrap is nice too. Once you get your underhand it leads very nicely into a circus. Then all kinds of cool stuff.

A note on American whips. The swivel handle is an added challenge. You do lose some of the flash, but not much. And as for accuracy, well I can take down a standard piece of 'sketti in five cracks ;), and that's with a 10' latigo. My favorite trick is putting two stryrofome (sp) cups on wave masters about eight feet apaart, taking out one with a sidearm, the other with an overhead. Making it to BANG is one thing, hitting things with it is something else. Best of luck and keep us updated!
Support your Local Whipster!

Thanks for sharing the info. on it. I wonder how long it'll last!

Yeah, its not the best quality obviously. the leather on the popper is already starting to go. I heard you can replace it with nylon or a shoe string but I'm not sure about how to attach it - do you just tie it on the end?

Andy

As far as a replacement popper I prefer parachute cord. Check around on the web for cracker replacements and you'll find how to attach it. Keep crackin!
Support Your Local Whipster

Thanks Hollywood and Jackal, I'll check some of those whip sites out.

Andy

Thanks Hollywood and Jackal, I'll check some of those whip sites out.

Andy
Any news?
Oh the snow is melting here in Missoula and I've staked out a patch to do some work in. My flow and transitions are much better now, having been miming whip work all winter. Anyone see Catwoman? Don't, Halle Berry is cute, but the whip work is terrible. "Look at me use my arm...look at me!" Shesh. What a waste of a rental.
Also it seems Western Stage Props got some new cowhides in that may fit the bill for a mid priced whip. Will have to pick one up. Lets keep this thread alive!
Support your local whipster!

Snow, snow and more snow. :(
I'm only brave enough to take the nylon out.
Maybe I can set up some icicles for cutting.

Was looking through the WSP catalog the other day. I hear the shot-loaded snake whips calling, but the wallet is screaming, "Have mercy!"

C'mon Spring.

Never been a big fan of the snakes, but the new cowhides look wonderful. But the questions! Australian style in two tone or the indy look? Hmmm, my poor wallet!

Yeah, its not the best quality obviously. the leather on the popper is already starting to go. I heard you can replace it with nylon or a shoe string but I'm not sure about how to attach it - do you just tie it on the end?

Andy
I think a particular kind of knot is best... gah! I'll have to go look at mine and see how it was done.

I think a particular kind of knot is best... gah! I'll have to go look at mine and see how it was done.
If done right, it's not a knot at all, it's away of threading the popper though the fall to make it stay. I really wish I had a camera to show how, and I guess I can try to explain ;) Of course this is only for a fall that has a hole in the end (There is another way to attach an austrailian style fall, can be found on the web) Make a loop at the very end of your popper and thread it through the hole, then loop that loop over the end of the whip and draw the remaining material through. It's now basicaly a slip knot, self tighting.
For popper material I highly suggest parachute cord. It has a nice whistle to it, pops cleanly and is cheap.
Support your local whipster!

I just bought a cheap-o leather whip from Ebay thanks to this thread. I think Jackel was right about crack being a cheaper hobby then martial arts :)

I got a few nice cracks but my goal is to strike targets with the whip.
I need to get cracken........

THanks
Jeremy Bays

Fifteen minutes a day will make you good, and hour will make you an expert ;)

I've bene thinking about a comment a Sayoc Kali instructor made, that training in the whip helps develop useful attributes for knife fighting. I want to experiment with that.Projectiles . Using the whip will improve projectiles . My training partner has been using the whip four times a week for a couple of years , it has improved his feeding skills / his flow .... Sayoc Kali has five ranges of combat: 1) projectile range 2) long range (largo) 3) medium range (corto) 4) short range 5) grappling range . Most fights are fought at projectile/long range or short/grappling range . Projectiles are a very important part of knife fighting . In corto range , I can projectile a blade into somthing http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif 99 out of 100 times . That is zero rotations . At projectile range or largo range , I'm pretty good also . Not only is it important to be able to projectile blades , but you should always carry somthing to projectile , just in case you have to close on somone with a blade or aviod a close range confrontation , which would be your goal against a blade . Projectiles are a great way to accomplish that goal & the whip is a great way to improve your projectiles & your close range skills through development of flow & accuracy .... In Sayoc Kali we practice vital templates , not angles of attack . It's similar to angles of attack , but with very sprecific targets in mind . Each range is examined /isolated . We call these attacks isolations . These are the five ranges of combat/isolations . The whip is one of the ways we use to practice our projectile range & it also has the other values that I mentioned . When you see a Sayoc Kali practitioner training with the whip , he is most likely doing one of the vital templates with the whip , instead of a blade .

Thanks for the insight, sayoc FF! I went to a few seminars with Jeff Chung so I have some idea of what you're discussing. I still haven't gotten a whip yet to try it out, however.

Very cool, sayoc FF. Looks like I'm going to have to look up info on Sayoc Kali now. :)

Samurai...told ya. ;)

I'm happy to say that on the Fourth of July this year, my friends and I were whip cracking in my backyard and our cracks beat the pants off of all the fireworks that were being set off on my street. We were pulling off cracks that where so intense, you could physically feel the sound wave at 25 ft. Good times.

Thanks for the insight, sayoc FF! I went to a few seminars with Jeff Chung so I have some idea of what you're discussing. I still haven't gotten a whip yet to try it out, however.
Thanks Arnisador ! Jeff Chung is the man ! If you don't mind I'd like to make a suggestion about the whip . You should consider starting off with a 6 foot whip at first , to learn . Then once you get your feet wet move up to an 8 footer . The 8 footers can be a ***** to handle at first .

:asian: Frank

[QUOTE=Jackal]Very cool, sayoc FF. Looks like I'm going to have to look up info on Sayoc Kali now. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Thanks Jackal ! check out ,
sayoc.com

:asian: Frank

I did part of the Sayoc Kali 3 of 9 video. The person was doing the 3 of 9 Vital Template with the whip. Nice work to look at.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays