Bruce and Chuck in the UFC

[Em MacIntosh]

I think Bruce would be proud of UFC an MMA. He would always ask "does it work?". UFC and MMA are great examples of fighting, period. They have minimal safety to bring it as close to reality as reason will allow and prove most of the weaknesses other martial arts have on their own. My question is how would the old guys do? Joe Lewis, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Bruce Lee, Don Wilson etc. Many of them might do pretty good in an "old timers" legue or something. Not that they can't still scrap with the best of'em, I'm just curious to see they're styles and how they apply to the "gauntlet" of selective breeding built up by the UFC and MMA. It seems that no matter your background, you have to have standing game, ground game, elbow and knee skills. I think Bruce would still be tearing guys in half to this day.

[Tez3]

I would personally separate the UFC and MMA. I don't believe either that the best fighting is on UFC. Yes, they are arguably the first and best known promotion but I have seen a great many better fights on other promotions. I'd debate the minimal safety bit too, sorry. And the reality bit really. It's full contact, with rules, competition fighting. Would Bruce Lee be doing it? I've honestly no idea!

[DavidCC]

I'm sure he would participate to the same extent that he participated in similar events of his time: He would look for ways to get on camera and look cool, maybe as a gym owner or coach and certainly as an announcer...

[Xue Sheng]

I think Bruce would be proud of UFC an MMA. He would always ask "does it work?". UFC and MMA are great examples of fighting, period. They have minimal safety to bring it as close to reality as reason will allow and prove most of the weaknesses other martial arts have on their own. My question is how would the old guys do? Joe Lewis, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Bruce Lee, Don Wilson etc. Many of them might do pretty good in an "old timers" legue or something. Not that they can't still scrap with the best of'em, I'm just curious to see they're styles and how they apply to the "gauntlet" of selective breeding built up by the UFC and MMA. It seems that no matter your background, you have to have standing game, ground game, elbow and knee skills. I think Bruce would still be tearing guys in half to this day.

Since Chuck did try BJJ years ago with the Gracies and he incorporated Grappling into his style he now has he might not do to badly, if he were in his prime.....:uhohh: uh oh... now you did it.... I just called Chuck old.... NOW he will be after me... :eek: MUST HIDE!!!!!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Since Chuck did try BJJ years ago with the Gracies and he incorporated Grappling into his style he now has he might not do to badly, if he were in his prime.....:uhohh: uh oh... now you did it.... I just called Chuck old.... NOW he will be after me... :eek: MUST HIDE!!!!!

I think you are in trouble! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Dave Leverich]

Definitely tough to say how they would have done if brought to 'today' in their prime's. But, I think almost all of them were true competitors at their core and would adapt and be very much forces to deal with.

As far as league's go, I'm getting more and more interested in the IFL. Team approach, yet retaining 'normal' matches. Although I'm not much for the grappling, but that's my own personal thing (and it does reduce injury for sure). WCL was great from a traditional MA's standpoint, but the split round thing is just foreign to most I think (along with the strange ring).

[terryl965]

I believe they would have faired pretty well

[Tames D]

I think Chuck would of been fine. He always had that 'can do' attitude and would find a way to win.

[phlaw]

Since Chuck did try BJJ years ago with the Gracies and he incorporated Grappling into his style he now has he might not do to badly, if he were in his prime.....:uhohh: uh oh... now you did it.... I just called Chuck old.... NOW he will be after me... :eek: MUST HIDE!!!!!


I thought he trained with The Machado Brothers not The Gracies?

[MBuzzy]

I really think that they would have fared well. What I have seen of UFC and MMA, they are great, but not always at the top of their style. It takes a special kind of training for that type of fighting, so they train to win in that arena. I think that someone like Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris would get pretty far just on intimidation also!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Taken in their prime and with the ability to train like guy's are doing now they probably would fair well. However it is just pure specualtioin as we will never know.

[Xue Sheng]

I thought he trained with The Machado Brothers not The Gracies?

Actually you might be right, I will have to check.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Actually you might be right, I will have to check.

It is definately the Machado brothers.

[Tez3]

It is definately the Machado brothers.


Same family though lol!

[exile]

OK, since we're indulging in fantasy scenarios.... how about Mas Oyama. Oyama, when a young karateka, intervened on behalf of a woman being harrassed by a bully and found himself facing a knife. According to court records, he blocks the knife attack and delivered a single, fatal punch to the attacker. Later on...

Mas Oyama, in order to show the strength of his karate, tested his strength by fighting raging bulls bare-handed. It was a mismatch from the get-go for the bulls, not for Oyama. In all, he fought 52 bulls, three of which were killed instantly, and 49 had their horns taken off with knife hand blows. That it is not to say that it was all that easy for him. Oyama was fond of remembering that his first attempt just resulted in an angry bull. In 1957, at the age of 34, he was nearly killed in Mexico when a bull got some of his own back and gored him. Oyama somehow managed to pull the bull off and break off his horn. He was bedridden for 6 months while he recovered from the usually fatal wound. Today of course, the animal rights groups would have something to say about these demonstrations, despite the fact that the animals were all destined for slaughter.

(http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/oyama/)

I've seen this story documented in a number of different places. Here is a guy who is quite capable of delivering a killing punch, as documented by his legal troubles in Japan—and apparently size was no object. I'm not much of an admirer of Oyama's, but his unequalled ability to generate and deliver power raises the interesting question of what would happen if he were back, in his prime, and set loose in the MMA competition circuit...

[Em MacIntosh]

I have to agree about the UFC and MMA being different. Old school UFC with Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock and all the headbutts was closer to realism than it is now. Still, as far as competition goes, unless it's underground, I think that's as real as it gets.
I think Chuck could still learn'em a thing or two. Mas Oyama could cuff somebody upside the head and break both his ankles.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Same family though lol!

Yes that does go without saying but both have slight differances to how they do certain things.

[exile]

Mas Oyama could cuff somebody upside the head and break both his ankles.

:lol:!!

[Brian R. VanCise]

OK, since we're indulging in fantasy scenarios.... how about Mas Oyama. Oyama, when a young karateka, intervened on behalf of a woman being harrassed by a bully and found himself facing a knife. According to court records, he blocks the knife attack and delivered a single, fatal punch to the attacker. Later on...

Mas Oyama, in order to show the strength of his karate, tested his strength by fighting raging bulls bare-handed. It was a mismatch from the get-go for the bulls, not for Oyama. In all, he fought 52 bulls, three of which were killed instantly, and 49 had their horns taken off with knife hand blows. That it is not to say that it was all that easy for him. Oyama was fond of remembering that his first attempt just resulted in an angry bull. In 1957, at the age of 34, he was nearly killed in Mexico when a bull got some of his own back and gored him. Oyama somehow managed to pull the bull off and break off his horn. He was bedridden for 6 months while he recovered from the usually fatal wound. Today of course, the animal rights groups would have something to say about these demonstrations, despite the fact that the animals were all destined for slaughter.

(http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/oyama/)

I've seen this story documented in a number of different places. Here is a guy who is quite capable of delivering a killing punch, as documented by his legal troubles in Japan—and apparently size was no object. I'm not much of an admirer of Oyama's, but his unequalled ability to generate and deliver power raises the interesting question of what would happen if he were back, in his prime, and set loose in the MMA competition circuit...

Mas Oyama was certainly a tough minded individual and you can see it in his lineage of Kyokushinkai Karate. Having said that I think the bull story is well a little bully if you get my meaning. Still with today's training I am sure he would be effective if he put his mind to it.

[Shotgun Buddha]

Im actually more interested in how Jon Bluming would have done. It would have been a bloodbath.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Im actually more interested in how Jon Bluming would have done. It would have been a bloodbath.

No doubt about that as he was/is a really tough individual. (mentally and physically)

[exile]

Mas Oyama was certainly a tough minded individual and you can see it in his lineage of Kyokushinkai Karate. Having said that I think the bull story is well a little bully if you get my meaning. Still with today's training I am sure he would be effective if he put his mind to it.

I've wondered about documentation for that story. It could be dojo folklore... maybe I'll start a little project of my own just digging around to see if one can get real documentation. The fatal punch story, though, seems to have been an actual court case, and there's a trial record. He was found innocent on grounds of self-defense, which seems fairly rational, since the witnesses all agree that the guy he hit was attempting to stab him with a wicked-looking knife...

He had the ability to deliver force and he had a ferocious attitude in combat—so yes, I'm thinking if he trained against these guys under octo conditions, he might well be a dangerous contender...

[Shotochem]

Im actually more interested in how Jon Bluming would have done. It would have been a bloodbath.

He was one tough SOB in his prime. I think could have easily taken Bruce or Chuck.

But thats like trying to figure out who would win Spiderman or Batman?

Santa clause or the Easter Bunny?:)

-Marc-

[Xue Sheng]

Actually if we are going the fantasy route I would rather like to see how Yang Shouhou, Yang Banhou, Chen Fake or some of the old Xingyi guys would have done.

[exile]

I think the bull story is well a little bully if you get my meaning.

The Bluming followup to this discussion got me looking around, and here's what I found about this story, Brian—looks like you were right on target, as usual:

(from an e-interview with Jon Bluming, one of Oyama's most prominent students)

When I was training under Oyama Sensei for several weeks, he invited Bill and I into the office upstairs. While there, he showed us a film of him fighting a bull at Tatyama prefecture in 1952. To start, it was not a bull but an ox. That is a big difference, my friend! The ox was visibly scared because oxes are kept as pets in farm country, and they let them fight each other under strict rules like sumo. As soon as they put their heads together to push each other over a certain spot in the ring and there is some blood, they stop the fight and care for their pets. To hit one that is very much used to being stroked emotionally is — in my opinion — very wrong. I love animals. Oyama Sensei never killed the ox; they did that at the slaughterhouse. But he seriously hurt the animal. The ox did not want to fight and never attempted to do anything. That’s sad. I told Sensei Draeger not to show this to Westerners because they would not like it. He looked at me and said that he [Oyama] was not completely crazy, and we had a good dinner after that. Oyama explained that this occurred at the start of kyokushin karate, and he needed the publicity stunt. He added that he would never do something like that again.

Recently, I read several times that Oyama killed many bulls in his time. The jackpot was during a meeting between England, France and Japan when some commentator told a packed stadium that Oyama had killed 28 bulls in his life. How ignorant and stupid can that be! But that’s how it all started.

(http://www.kyokushinbudokai.dk/interview_with_kancho_jon_blumin.htm; my emphasis). My estimation of Bluming went through the roof when I read that—I feel the same way about animals—and I felt better about Oyama reading that he did this only once and felt bad about it and would not do it again.

Apart from that, it's a cautionary tale. And all too familiar. The truth is, there are only a few distinct roots in the Eskimo language, Inuktitut, for snow, as a colleague of mine at UC Santa Cruz has become kind of famous for demonstrating. But in some newspaper stories, the number of distinct Inuktitut terms for snow now numbers in the hundreds. There are academic urban legends and MA urban legends and on and on... just shows you how careful you have to be in what you give credence to, eh?

BTW, the Bluming interview I've given the link to is terrific. This is a man with an excellent head on his shoulders, definitely screwed on the right way!

[zDom]

But thats like trying to figure out who would win Spiderman or Batman?

Santa clause or the Easter Bunny?:)


Pfft. Those two are EASY to figure out:

Spiderman and Santa Clause, both in the first round.

[Brian R. VanCise]

The Bluming followup to this discussion got me looking around, and here's what I found about this story, Brian—looks like you were right on target, as usual:

(from an e-interview with Jon Bluming, one of Oyama's most prominent students)

When I was training under Oyama Sensei for several weeks, he invited Bill and I into the office upstairs. While there, he showed us a film of him fighting a bull at Tatyama prefecture in 1952. To start, it was not a bull but an ox. That is a big difference, my friend! The ox was visibly scared because oxes are kept as pets in farm country, and they let them fight each other under strict rules like sumo. As soon as they put their heads together to push each other over a certain spot in the ring and there is some blood, they stop the fight and care for their pets. To hit one that is very much used to being stroked emotionally is — in my opinion — very wrong. I love animals. Oyama Sensei never killed the ox; they did that at the slaughterhouse. But he seriously hurt the animal. The ox did not want to fight and never attempted to do anything. That’s sad. I told Sensei Draeger not to show this to Westerners because they would not like it. He looked at me and said that he [Oyama] was not completely crazy, and we had a good dinner after that. Oyama explained that this occurred at the start of kyokushin karate, and he needed the publicity stunt. He added that he would never do something like that again.

Recently, I read several times that Oyama killed many bulls in his time. The jackpot was during a meeting between England, France and Japan when some commentator told a packed stadium that Oyama had killed 28 bulls in his life. How ignorant and stupid can that be! But that’s how it all started.

(http://www.kyokushinbudokai.dk/interview_with_kancho_jon_blumin.htm; my emphasis). My estimation of Bluming went through the roof when I read that—I feel the same way about animals—and I felt better about Oyama reading that he did this only once and felt bad about it and would not do it again.

Apart from that, it's a cautionary tale. And all too familiar. The truth is, there are only a few distinct roots in the Eskimo language, Inuktitut, for snow, as a colleague of mine at UC Santa Cruz has become kind of famous for demonstrating. But in some newspaper stories, the number of distinct Inuktitut terms for snow now numbers in the hundreds. There are academic urban legends and MA urban legends and on and on... just shows you how careful you have to be in what you give credence to, eh?

BTW, the Bluming interview I've given the link to is terrific. This is a man with an excellent head on his shoulders, definitely screwed on the right way!

I have some great Bluming footage that was on Discovery or TLC. He is quite a character and definately a very, very good practitioner.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Mariachi Joe]

I'd be curious to see how Kempo masters would have done in mma. Guys like Prof. Chow, Ed Parker, and Adriano Emperado

[exile]

I have some great Bluming footage that was on Discovery or TLC. He is quite a character and definately a very, very good practitioner.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Clearly he's someone worthy of our respect.

[Shotochem]

I have some great Bluming footage that was on Discovery or TLC. He is quite a character and definately a very, very good practitioner.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

He is definately the real deal.

No nonsense, No mystical BS what you see is what you get.:mst: