Roundhouse Kicks

[Quick Sand]

Just a quick question about roundhouse kicks. I was just wondering if most people kick with your instep or if you pull your toes back and kick more with the ball of the feet? Or do you change depending on the situation?

I've always been afraid of breaking toes or something if you don't get them back far enough to kick with the ball of the foot but one of my friends really hurt her foot last week by kicking with the instep and having her foot hyperextend.

I only got my green belt on Tuesday :D so I'm wondering what those of you with more experience say on the subject.

Thanks

[Damian Mavis]

You can injure yourself doing almost any technique but I don't see many instep injuries in TKD. I have kicked with the instep thousands of times and very few injuries over the past 12 years. You have to kick properly for both ways, ball of the foot or instep, if you want to prevent injury. Honestly I rarely kick using the ball of the foot while sparring.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[fissure]

I never kick with the ball of the foot, allways the instep.Watch out for those elbows though, I have broken my foot on them before!

[jfarnsworth]

This is a good question and probably spark a lot of different answers. My personal preference is that I use the instep toward the head and body. I use the ball of the foot for the groin depending on how the opponent is turned. Last but not least the shin to kick the side of the quad muscles. Once again that's just my personal rule of thumb.

[fissure]

I admit that part of the reason I don't kick with the ball is because after several broken toes on my right foot, the little guys just don't go very far back when I "pull" them.:EG:

[Elfan]

In general I kick with the ball of the foot unless the target dictates otherwise (back of the knee for example).

[celtic bhoy]

When performing a turning kick (Dollyo chagi) for breaking purposes, I was taught to do it from bending stance "A" and hit the board with the ball of the foot (Ap kumchi).

I broke two toes on my first attempt!

[Klondike93]

I used to use the ball of my foot all the time, I just got used to curling the toes back all the time. Then I started doing more open tournament stuff and began using my instep all the time so now I don't do the ball much at all.

Question Damian - How's the foot and how did you do it?



:asian:

[tshadowchaser]

I've manage to break toes doing the kick both ways.
When I used to kick with the top of my foot all the time I developed a huge callous on top of it . Shoes became harder to find because of the growth.
Kicking with the ball of my foot has never resulted in the same large mass. I imagin that it wares off with all the walking and slideing of my foot across the floor.
I have managed to cheatch my toe in gi's no matter how I kicked.

Shadow

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Klondike93

I used to use the ball of my foot all the time, I just got used to curling the toes back all the time. Then I started doing more open tournament stuff and began using my instep all the time so now I don't do the ball much at all.

Do you find that you have greater range when using the instep or that it give you some other advantage?

[karatekid1975]

I kick both ways. I learned the roundhouse with the ball of the foot in TSD. Now I do TKD and use the instep more, but I still practice both.

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Elfan

Do you find that you have greater range when using the instep or that it give you some other advantage?

Never thought about it that way, it's seems to be a little faster to kick with the instep cause you don't need to worry about pulling the toes back. I have seen some ITF black belts break 4 boards with an instep turning (round) kick (ouch).


:asian:

[Damian Mavis]

My colleague breaks somewere around 8 boards with the ball of the foot.

"Question Damian - How's the foot and how did you do it?"

My foot is bugging me but only because I want it to heal fast for my trip heh. It got the hariline fracture (assuming that is what you are referring to) by doing a sidekick in Muay Thai and having my opponent use an elbow destruction on it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Klondike93]

My colleague breaks somewere around 8 boards with the ball of the foot.

"Boards don't hit back" - now we know why :eek:



doing a sidekick in Muay Thai and having my opponent use an elbow destruction on it.

Don't quite know what an elbow destruction is but it seems to work.


:asian:

[Damian Mavis]

Elbow destruction is from Filipino Martial arts and is used as a counter to the sidekick where you pop your lower torso and hips back to avoid getting hit while slamming the point of your elbow down into your opponents foot with your lead arm.

It sucks.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Elbow destruction is from Filipino Martial arts and is used as a counter to the sidekick where you pop your lower torso and hips back to avoid getting hit while slamming the point of your elbow down into your opponents foot with your lead arm.

It sucks.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Hey thats prety cool, I think I'll have to start doing that.

[Damian Mavis]

Doesn't work as well if they are wearing thick foot coverings or sparring gear. When I got my hairline fracture I wasn't wearing any kind of foot protection.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Elbow destruction is from Filipino Martial arts and is used as a counter to the sidekick where you pop your lower torso and hips back to avoid getting hit while slamming the point of your elbow down into your opponents foot with your lead arm.

It sucks.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Is that legal in MT comps ?

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Doesn't work as well if they are wearing thick foot coverings or sparring gear. When I got my hairline fracture I wasn't wearing any kind of foot protection.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

So a few hours after my last post I'm sparring with a friend and he does that to me. There is this nice black and blue bump forming. :-D



Is that legal in MT comps?

I think you could get away with it if you claim it was a block (which in a sense it is) and didn't hurt him too bad. Then again since droping the elbow like that is such a subtle motion you could do it hard and then be like "I duno what happned to him sir! Must have kicked me with the wroung part of his foot" ;-)

[Klondike93]

That's kind of what I was thinking it was.

Hope it gets better in time for your trip.


:asian:

[Damian Mavis]

Pretty much everything is legal in Muay Thai fights. Elbowing the attacking limb is totally legal, but it's not as easy as it looks. The only things off the top of my head that are definately out in the ring for Muay Thai is on the ground grappling and deliberate attacking of the knee joint. (meaning you can kick the leg all over but your not supposed to try to hyper extend his leg with a front kick to the knee)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Blackdragon]

I have never really kicked with the ball of my foot. I guess I never found it comfortable and I'm always afraid I'll break my toes that way.
I either kick with the instep or more around the shin like in Thai kickboxing. For each person it's different. One prefers one way, and one prefers another,etc.



Well, train hard and be well.

[Quick Sand]

I want to thank everyone who's posted so far. It's been great seeing what other people have to say.

It sounds like it's pretty split whether to use the ball of the foot or the instep. Either way it sounds like I need to work more on my technique so that I'm really doing it correctly and then find what works best for me.

:)

I'm still interested in anyone else's opinions as well.

[Senfeng]

When I practiced TKD, I used to use the instep. I found that it was quicker for me (don't know why) and I also found that I had a tendency to lock by kick for a split second if I tried to use the ball of my foot. When I tried using the ball of my foot, I noticed that the tendons behind my knee would tighten. Whereas, by using my instep, my leg felt more relaxed.

[Cliarlaoch]

Hey, Quicksand,

Just thought I'd offer my two cents (for whatever it's worth). I've been doing TKD for a while, and I've rarely seen a ball-of-the-foot strike with a roundhouse kick. I don't believe that this means that you can't or shouldn't use the ball of your foot to strike your target, just that it's somewhat rare. I suppose it depends on what it is you're planning on hitting. Certain softer areas (such as kidneys, throat, solar plexus, etc.) are more susceptible to a direct and focused attack, which the ball-of-the-foot method would probably be best for. The Instep might be better if you're striking an area where a pointed attack like the b-o-t-f strike might not be as effective (ribs, stomach, etc).

In addition, the instep is a slightly broader area, so the pressure of the strike would be more spread out, in terms of impact, on your own foot. A potential problem that might occur with using the balls of your feet would be if you don't pull back your toes enough... that would hurt a bit, if you strike a knee or a shin with a roundhouse kick's potential force, and your toes took all the impact. I've done some damage with errors like that. Granted, the instep poses its own problems for injuries, but I think it would be less likely.

Usually it's considered good form to strike with the instep, as it forces you to use control on your foot and strike with a specific point, which is good for overall technique. Then again, the same can be said for the b-o-t-f method. Up to you. I've also seen roundhouse kicks that utilize the shin to strike the target... although that can hurt and be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. Ask your instructor, if you think he or she can help, and see what that person tells you is appropriate for your style... and start experimenting with it once you get that down. I'd think that would be the best practical method of getting the technique down.

At any rate, congratulations on the green belt. As always, the choice in how you utilize a technique, or what you do with the specifics of the technique, is up to you. Like everything, it's a matter of what you believe works best FOR YOU. Try different mechanisms for the technique, and do what you think is right for you. Just as long as you're aware that doing something different from everyone else in your style's probably going to cause some confusion. :P

Have fun, congrats again on the belt, and hope this helps somewhat!

Cheers!

--Cliarlaoch

PS: Recognize the name? :P I'm on the server now, muahahah!
PPS: If you don't recognize the name... does the translation (cliarlaoch = warrior poet) help, or the name Chris ring a bell? :)
Thought so
Cheerio!

[yilisifu]

From an old-timer........

The roundhouse kick, as we know it, was actually created in the 1950's by a senior instructor of the Japan Karate Assn. who is now deceased.
Prior to this, various arts used a type of roundhouse as in Muay Thai's "cutting kick," but it wasn't the true roundhouse that we see nowadays.
It should be noted that traditional Japanese, Okinawan, and the original TKD forms do not use a roundhouse kick....because it had not yet been invented.

Th original kick was executed with the ball of the foot. Using the ankle turned in this way is comparable to swinging a sledgehammer; the :tip" of the hammer is set at roughly 90 degrees to the handle (the leg). This produces great shock which penetrates deeply into the target.
In the old days, TKD used it in this way because that was how they'd learned it from the Japanese.

When tournaments became the "in thing" back in the mid-60's, it was still done in the old-fashioned way. BUT when foam foot gear was introduced, it was discovered that if one used the top of the instep, one could increase the reach of the kick by a considerable distance and score a point!
Many instructors also found that it was much easier to teach students to kick with the instep than with the ball of the foot (which, as you noted, takes considerable practice to do properly).

I believe that a roundhouse kick executed in the original way, with the ball of the foot, is much more powerful than using the top of the instep.

[white belt]

Quicksand,
A lot of people don't realize their full range of motion with the ankle and toes so they stay away from ball of the foot kicks. I am sharing a bit of info. just in case you are one of these people.

There is an easy exercise to gain reasonable control of the toes. Have your feet no more than shoulder width apart and kneel while keeping the balls of your feet touching the floor. Try to sit on your heels as much as possible and lean back. This will stretch the tissues needed to make a proper presentation of only the ball of the foot. Don't let your heels / ankles rotate out. Make sure the stress / stretch is felt mostly at the big toe junctions. Your toes may survive more encounters with more retraction enabled.

During sparring (WTF TKD), if I see a hole in the opponent's defense that is too small for the instep, I slip the ball of the foot in and give a nice thump. It may not be noticed by a ref. due to speed and size of target struck, but, it many times causes the opponent discomfort and worry, causing them to cinch their arms closer together, especially if caught in or around the solar plexus. When that reaction takes place, the instep can be used on the side/s of the rib cage or lower abs a bit easier with a nice clean slap.

When forming the foot for the kick, rotate the ankle out a bit more toward the small toe side while opening / stretching the ankle's inside. This takes the smaller toes more out of the picture, while presenting the foot's ball more prominently. Since following this routine, my toe injuries are near nonexistant and I have a more useable weapon. Test your progress on a heavy bag and see if you bang toe. Wish you success. Broken toes suck.

white belt

[LBB]

I started TKD because I wanted to fight and have always liked the instep form most, mostly because it feels more natural, is quicker and more "functional".I have hit elbows a lot of times and still fears this when I am sparring, but still I think it is better than apchook.The apchook form is mostly for "style"/poom training.
Having said this you have to concider the fact that the apckook is smaller in areal than the instep(baldeung) and that this concentrates the force on a smaller spot which ,theoretically making more damage....

[SMAC]

instep vs BOTF is a matter of penetration. The BOTF can be used to the body esp.ribs because the extra depth from flexing your ankle allows you to poke through your opponents guard. Alternatively you can cock your foot in the sameway but strike to the leg with your shin. By cocking your foot you tense the muscle on the front of your shin and so protect the bone from the full impact.

[MartialArtist]

http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/KickInstruction.htm

[Chronuss]

as it has been said there are two types of round kicks: ball of the foot (traditional) or using the instep. it is true that using the ball of the foot makes the execution of the kick a bit slower. however, using the ball of the foot (curling the toes back) will inflict more damage simply because you're using a smaller striking surface which will result in more power per square inch. it has also been said that using the instep as the striking surface for a round kick increases the range of the kick as well as it allows the kick to be executed faster.

now if you were gonna use this kick for a break, I'd strongly recommend using the ball of foot, simply so you won't damage the instep of your foot.

also, I've been taught to use the ball of the foot for a front kick.

[ThuNder_FoOt]

IMHO, I don't feel that maximum rotation of the hip can be achieved by striking with the BOTF, thereby losing power. I suppose it may be useful for striking vital spots... but in the heat of an intense exchange, I don't think there would be many opportunities to utilize it.

[Zepp]

Personally, I usually practice roudhousing with the ball of my foot, but sometimes in sparring I use the instep just to avoid getting my toes crunched if I'm blocked.

Of course, in an actual fight, I'd have to assume that I'd be wearing athletic shoes, so I'd probably just hit with the toe anyways.

Then there's always the shin, like in muay thai. It's actually a pretty hard bone and decent striking surface, it just tends to hurt until you kill the nerve endings off. :D

[bob919]

i never use my instep i use my shin for close range and the ball of the foot for longer ranges but its worth noteing i do where shoes so they protect my toes a little

[Infight]

I think roundhouse or " hound house" kick, should be done as BOB said, i do use shoes too

[Sean352]

Who trains in actual footwear? Not wrestling or martial arts shoes. When I trained in TKD I tried to train in regular clothing alot. I did instep and ball of foot. I also remember the first time I did any kind of kick in combat boots. It was a whole new experience. Bulky boots can teach you all sorts of things about your kicks. Hope that helps!!!

Sean

[Andi]

I always find it quite hard to kick with the ball of the foot, simply because years of playing football (soccer) have trained me to kick with the instep for power. I really have to think about the correct foot formation and to pull the toes back to kick with the BOTF.

That said, I'd never try and break a board with my instep. There's no big cushioned pad bit like you get on the BOTF! Yeah, I'm a wuss.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Andi
That said, I'd never try and break a board with my instep. There's no big cushioned pad bit like you get on the BOTF! Yeah, I'm a wuss.

No you're not. I wouldn't use my instep for a break either (unless I was trying to break my foot).

[lonekimono]

if you are walking down the street and something happens and you have to kick would you not have shoes or boots, the point is that you won't break anything unless you kick the wrong way.


yours in kenpo:asian:

[MartialArtist]

In sparring and in a real fight, I've used my instep or my shin. I find when I personally use the ball of my feet, it feels like I'm off balance and I tighten up. I personally hit harder and faster and with more control with my instep.

[Zepp]

Given the choice between my shin, my instep, or the ball of my foot, I might use any of them depending on where I'm trying to strike my opponent and what I want to happen to them. Personal preference is really what it comes down to.