bone toughening

[muayThaiPerson]

theres a lot of talk about shin toughening, the number one answer ot shin toughening is kickin a heavy bag alot. i felt the shins of MT fighters who have trained for years, boy are they tough. so i was thinking, can this type of toughening be aplied to fist as well? ive thought about the wrist breaking, but good handwrap can take care of that right?

i really want ot hear input on this
thanks

[Master of Blades]

Drinking you're milk is an easier, less painful option :rofl:

[Yari]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson



i really want ot hear input on this
thanks

Of course you can. You can toughen them up so much that you can only used them for punching, but that's maybe why you want to toughen them to be able to punch with out any problems?

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much you try an toughen a bone, or joint (it's worse) there are side effects. You wont notice them much when your 20, but when your 40 - 50 plus you'll start noticing it.

So think twice.

/Yari

[muayThaiPerson]

so what your saying is for us martial artist, who kick heavy bags and get our shins toughend, we will all notice side effects when we're 50?

[Kenpo Wolf]

No dude. The detrimental effect will come if you put your body through punishment it was not meant to take. Hitting or kicking a heavy bag, or any soft target, will not hurt you if you do it right. Now if you go to the extreme of it, like constantly use a makira(spl) board or hittig buckets of rice or shot, you will damage your in a way that will effect you later. We all grow old and fragile sooner or later, but don't feel the need to rush it :)

[Baoquan]

Couldn't agree more, Kenpo Wolf. I was just reading an article about Jim Lacy in Black Belt, Nov 2002...it says he worked for eighteen years to be capable of smashing a coconut with his inner forearm....which is handy, if you are often attacked by coconuts, but i prefer a chisel.

Seriously dude....for toughening u should read "desensitization" - ur still getting damaged, u just dont feel it. We feel pain for a reason..it tells us what we're doing is stupid.

[muayThaiPerson]

can u link me?

[Baoquan]

I was reading it in the paper mag, but u might find it at blackbeltmag.com (http://www.blackbeltmag.com)...

Cheers

Baoquan

[tarabos]

sometimes you just can't avoid the old boxer's fracture...even the pros get them...in fact, all of them i would say have had a boxer's fracture at least once. if not, they're pretty lucky.

toughening bones...? i'd go with the milk idea. get some calcium in ya. hitting bones against something hard repeatedly will only weaken a bone i'd say. ever seen a shin bone snap in half? rolling things on the shin is not great for it either. yes...a lot of hardcore muay thai fighters do experience problems later in life. boxers of course feel the effects of fighting later on, but they tend to fall victim of being punch drunk.

someone here probably has the link to that movie of the guy breaking his on another fighter's...

[Damian Mavis]

Your shins will be fine later if you desensitize them properly but your hand will suffer later if you try to toughen them up too much. Too many joints and bones taking to much punishment. I used to condition my hands until I found out what I was doing was stupid. But it definately works if you really don't give a poop.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MartialArtist]

There are a couple of things you can do...

Make sure you get enough calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D.
Deaden the nerves which can be done in a lot of drills, etc.
Increase bone density by working the calves, shins, and ankles

[Yari]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

so what your saying is for us martial artist, who kick heavy bags and get our shins toughend, we will all notice side effects when we're 50?

Yes. There are alot of things it depends on; your overall condition, how old you were when you started on so on. WEre you live ( you'll feel it more in cold damp areas, and oppesite to livving in the sunny/warm south).

But the bottom line is that the cells in your body get broken. The structur reorg. and the nerves smashed until the don't function correctly. THe blood vesels will stop growing out to those areas.

This is worse case. But it's the price for toughening. I agree with Damian Mavis. It's even worse on the hands. Toughing a joint were i bends only ruins the soft bone structur in the joint.

/Yari

[muayThaiPerson]

i agree with the milk deal but is hitting a bag barefist safe?

[tarabos]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

i agree with the milk deal but is hitting a bag barefist safe?

not as safe as hitting it with wrapped hands. however, if you have been hitting the bag for a while now your wrists will be able to take the bare-handed workout better.

still...it's a lot easier to injure a hand when it isn't wrapped.

[Jay Bell]

If you hit something harder then your hands, you are doing damage. That is not debatable, but medical fact. Microfractures are horrible realities...and the older you get, the more apparent they make themselves. Microfractures making bone stronger is also a myth.

As far as hitting heavybags with no gloves...that depends on you. How is your striking alignment? If it's off...you can seriously hurt yourself. Hence the 'boxer breaks'..


it's a lot easier to injure a hand when it isn't wrapped.

Very true. Wraps act as a brace for the wrist and hand. It creates the alignment, even if the person wearing the wraps hasn't created that alignment for themselves.

[chufeng]

"in fact, all of them i would say have had a boxer's fracture at least once. if not, they're pretty lucky."

NO...
"boxer's fractures" are more common in the street than in the ring...I've lived around boxers all of my life...only ONE has sustained a boxer's fracture (and he got it in a street fight without his hands wrapped).

Proper training and proper wrapping of the hands (that's why a good coach is so important) will prevent this fracture (caused by hitting wrong in the first place).

Never try a new technique "full blast."
Work up to it slowly so you develop proper alignment and strengthen the joints to take the punishment.

Enthusiasm is great, but probably the cause for more injuries than anything else...take your time...train correctly, and you'll get there...boxer's fractures take a VERY long time to heal due to poor blood supply...the down time is NOT worth rushing your training.

:asian:
chufeng

[muayThaiPerson]

oh right, thats wat i meant. when i said barefist i meant the hands were wrapped but contact is without gloves. dont microfractured heal?

[Jay Bell]

chufeng,

Much agreed!


dont microfractured heal?

Most often, no.

[muayThaiPerson]

NO?!?!??

arent more cells produced!?

[chufeng]

Most fractures will heal if given enough time to mend.
Most bones will lay more bone down when under stress...

However, if you have a fracture and continue to reinjure it, it will probably not mend and become a source for chronic inflammation.

"microfractures" are probably not even noticed by most folks...yeah the bone is a little sore, but that is because you've been training, right?

So, the area doesn't get a chance to heal as most folks just keep pounding away at the injured area...

If you rest it, though, (about six weeks) it will heal.

:asian:
chufeng

[Elfan]

None of those silling bags, I like hitting people ;-)

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by chufeng

Most fractures will heal if given enough time to mend.
Most bones will lay more bone down when under stress...

However, if you have a fracture and continue to reinjure it, it will probably not mend and become a source for chronic inflammation.

"microfractures" are probably not even noticed by most folks...yeah the bone is a little sore, but that is because you've been training, right?

So, the area doesn't get a chance to heal as most folks just keep pounding away at the injured area...

If you rest it, though, (about six weeks) it will heal.

:asian:
chufeng

how much pounding until the fracture becomes permanent? and what kind of pounding, heavy bags or just pads

[Yari]

Originally posted by chufeng

Most fractures will heal if given enough time to mend.
Most bones will lay more bone down when under stress...
If you rest it, though, (about six weeks) it will heal.

:asian:
chufeng

No, not quite. If there is a frature the bone wil have been permantly damaged. It's true that the bone will grow together, but the bone material bywich the bone grows together, is of another consistance than the rest of the bone.

What happens is when you have a material that has a different micro structure, is that stress on the material is strong/hard on the area ( the area around were the bone was broken). On micro fractures, you'll just be getting worse and worse, each time you heal. Even though you've "healed".

Worse is it in a joint, because the surface of were you knuckles are, are a bare part of the joint. With this I mean that this area is were the finger joint moves. It has to be smooth to be without pain or problems of locking. If you get a micro fracture here, there will always be a knick in the smooth area. It will slowly chick away in your joint. In the end you could end up with arthritis (sp?).

I know this is a little bit religon. But I don't mind people doing it. They should just know the possible consequenses. Just like smoking and drinking. Just like that not alle smokers get lung cancer, som people don't have problems when the get old. But do you want to find out when your 40 or 50, and not be able to use your hands to the extent you want to?

/Yari

[chufeng]

"how much pounding until the fracture becomes permanent?"

Good question...and I don't have an answer for it...everyone is different...some people can run 7 miles everyday without problems...others develop stress fractures in their lower legs, ankles, or feet when they run as little as two miles a day...

If I knew the answer to this question, I'd become very wealthy in a short period of time...but sadly, I don't know the answer.

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

Yari,

I tried to follow what you were saying, but you lost me.

You said: "No, not quite. If there is a frature the bone wil have been permantly damaged. It's true that the bone will grow together, but the bone material bywich the bone grows together, is of another consistance than the rest of the bone.

What happens is when you have a material that has a different micro structure, is that stress on the material is strong/hard on the area ( the area around were the bone was broken). On micro fractures, you'll just be getting worse and worse, each time you heal. Even though you've "healed".

Worse is it in a joint, because the surface of were you knuckles are, are a bare part of the joint. With this I mean that this area is were the finger joint moves. It has to be smooth to be without pain or problems of locking. If you get a micro fracture here, there will always be a knick in the smooth area. It will slowly chick away in your joint. In the end you could end up with arthritis (sp?)."


Truth is, fractured areas, when allowed to heal, are oftentimes stronger than the surrounding bone...this is because of the EXTRA calcium laid down to effect a repair...BUT, if you don't allow healing to occur, then you have a problem...

I think we are both saying the same thing, but are approaching it from different angles.

:asian:
chufeng

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by chufeng

"how much pounding until the fracture becomes permanent?"

Good question...and I don't have an answer for it...everyone is different...some people can run 7 miles everyday without problems...others develop stress fractures in their lower legs, ankles, or feet when they run as little as two miles a day...

If I knew the answer to this question, I'd become very wealthy in a short period of time...but sadly, I don't know the answer.

:asian:
chufeng

ive never heard of leg fractures from running....hmmm, thanks:asian:

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by chufeng

Yari,

I tried to follow what you were saying, but you lost me.

You said: "No, not quite. If there is a frature the bone wil have been permantly damaged. It's true that the bone will grow together, but the bone material bywich the bone grows together, is of another consistance than the rest of the bone.

What happens is when you have a material that has a different micro structure, is that stress on the material is strong/hard on the area ( the area around were the bone was broken). On micro fractures, you'll just be getting worse and worse, each time you heal. Even though you've "healed".

Worse is it in a joint, because the surface of were you knuckles are, are a bare part of the joint. With this I mean that this area is were the finger joint moves. It has to be smooth to be without pain or problems of locking. If you get a micro fracture here, there will always be a knick in the smooth area. It will slowly chick away in your joint. In the end you could end up with arthritis (sp?)."


Truth is, fractured areas, when allowed to heal, are oftentimes stronger than the surrounding bone...this is because of the EXTRA calcium laid down to effect a repair...BUT, if you don't allow healing to occur, then you have a problem...

I think we are both saying the same thing, but are approaching it from different angles.

:asian:
chufeng

thats what i thought also, that the bones that are healed grow thicker

[chufeng]

MuayThai...

You posted:
"ive never heard of leg fractures from running....hmmm, thanks"

The fractures are called strees fractures. I've seen them in the heel bone (calcaneus) and in the lower part of the leg (tibia and fibula)...they develop because the stressors put on them are acute (high impact in a short time)...

In the military, we see this fracture fairly frequently (less now than in the 70s because of our understanding of the cause)...

The same type of fracture will occur in the hand or wrist with sudden increases in stress in those areas (like a beginner pounding the snot out of a heavy bag before he understands how to make a proper fist)...

:asian:
chufeng

[Yari]

Originally posted by chufeng

Yari,

I tried to follow what you were saying, but you lost me.

..........

I think we are both saying the same thing, but are approaching it from different angles.

:asian:
chufeng

My english isn't that good, so my point isn't always that easy to tell.

It's true that were the fracture is the bone is harder, but hte area between the fracture and non-fracture is "weakend". Take a lollipop stick. It looks like a firm straight through stick. The tree is one peice. If you make a notch in it, and try to break the stick it will probably break were the notch is.

The oppesite is also tru. If you take som tape, and tape an area, and try and break the stick, it'll break right beside the tape.

The tape represents the broken bone that has healed.

NOw some people will say that if you break all the bone, and just grow "tape", ist should be hard. But no, the structure of the bone is harder, but more brittle. In small area's you'll no notice it, but over larer areas it wouldn't, plus that the growth will not be 'harmonious', and the micro structure will be uneven. Uneven micro structure give s at bigger chance of fracture.....

Now I'm talking to much.

/Yari

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

so what your saying is for us martial artist, who kick heavy bags and get our shins toughend, we will all notice side effects when we're 50?

Kicking the heavy bag alone won't toughen your shins that much or cause any long term damage. Kicking harder things and rolling a rolling pin up and down your shins can. My instructor has seen many kickboxers and the likes suffer the consequences later in life. If you're thinking of becoming a ring fighter you don't have a choice and will have to toughen your body. If your not then it is unnecessarilty risky.

Cheers
Sammy

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by Yari

My english isn't that good, so my point isn't always that easy to tell.

It's true that were the fracture is the bone is harder, but hte area between the fracture and non-fracture is "weakend". Take a lollipop stick. It looks like a firm straight through stick. The tree is one peice. If you make a notch in it, and try to break the stick it will probably break were the notch is.

The oppesite is also tru. If you take som tape, and tape an area, and try and break the stick, it'll break right beside the tape.

The tape represents the broken bone that has healed.

NOw some people will say that if you break all the bone, and just grow "tape", ist should be hard. But no, the structure of the bone is harder, but more brittle. In small area's you'll no notice it, but over larer areas it wouldn't, plus that the growth will not be 'harmonious', and the micro structure will be uneven. Uneven micro structure give s at bigger chance of fracture.....

Now I'm talking to much.

/Yari

are u talking about an imbalance in bone density? becuase i dont think the density will be so different that it will break at a differetnt place due to the imbalance