getting to the heart of taiji

[Taiji fan]

I have recently conducted and interview with an Indoor student of Chen Zhen Lei who was visiting the UK last month. He was very interested to see what was happening on the British taiji scene but also did comment on the fairly poor understanding of taiji by Western teachers. It does seem that the way taiji is practised in China and the way it is practised in the West are somewhat different. For instance, he said that there were only 5 recognised styles in China....Chen, Yang, Wu, Woo, and Sun. He said that when China closed its doors, much of the genuine information regarding taiji had not made it out and many of the texts that were translated were written in 'old' Chinese that even scholars had difficulty understanding and as a result had been embellished or just plainly incorrectly tranlated which he thought was partly why Western taiji has so many variations from teacher to teacher. Essentially much of what we see practised in the West lacks authenticity and many western teachers have little understanding of the complexities of the styles and have gone on to 'make it up' albeit in a well meaning way. This has lead to the creation of 'new' styles and misinterpreation of exsisting ones. He was pleased to see the level of interest in the UK though and hopes that now more people are seeking out the origins and aiming to reach as high a level possible and study the art true to its founders.

[East Winds]

Taji Fan,

I think you are correct. The problem is that I can learn, say 24step, from a video and then set myself up as a teacher of Taiji. I could also probably claim that my lineage came from the person featured on the video! There are a great many "snake oil sellers" out there and there seems to be little control or regulation of their teaching. Another part of the problem is the teacher who never bothers (or never feels the need) to update his/her own form. Taiji is a never ending journey of discovery. The teacher who does not feel the need for correction has a poor understanding of Tajiquan. As for the "new ager's" the least said the better!

Regards

[Taiji fan]

There are a great many "snake oil sellers" out there and there seems to be little control or regulation of their teaching thats true, although I am not sure how you could regulate it, at some point that means someone assuming control and thenlike most things politics get in the way. Taiji does seems to lack any kind of standardisation with reagrds to arts such as Karate, where at a given level the student will know x amount of stuff. In Taiji, you often find that out of 20 schools they will also have such different ideas of what they are doing....... Sometimes the main people running the show don't have as much knowledge as they first seem to and have only managed to elivate their status because they have been around for so long not necessarily because they are any good at what they do.it is a difficult situation I am not sure how it could be treated objectively

[East Winds]

Taiji Fan,

Yes you are right. Regulatory bodies are generally governed by politics. But then so is our whole life.:mad: However the governing bodies do exert some sort of regulation into what I suspect would otherwise quickly develop into chaos. My governing body for instance will only accept you if you are teaching one of the "recognised" Taijiquan forms. This at least would exclude the "new agers" and the "dance" people :D Fortunately it also excludes the "franchise" taiji societies:p

Not sure I'm in favour of "gradings" though. Would we not just be back into the world of political grading again?

No, what we have is very far from perfect, but it is better than nothing at all I think.:cool:

What is the position in other countries with accrediting teachers?

Very best wishes

[Arithon]

Better than nothing? I disagree. You described system where, unless you already know something, you have no idea whether what you are being taught will actually be useful, either in a martial or health context. Nothing would probably be better than that.

By the way, who do these taijiquan forms have to be recognised by? If it is the Chinese government I would be very wary of them.

Gradings would be fine if the result could be trusted. Failing a real grading atleast shows you that you aren't up to the minimum standard for the belt.

I think that with a martial form of taiji you can atleast see if you are progressing compared to the students around you. You can test yourself against others and see if you really are getting anything from your training.

[yilisifu]

I think a grading system is sorely needed. Other well-known Chinese martial arts leaders do, too.

The system I teach, Yilichuan, instituted a grading system many years ago and it has worked very well.

[East Winds]

Arithon,

You are right. Until you know something about what you are doing, you have no way of judging its value. The "franchise" Tai Chi Societies can hold on to their members because they do not allow them to explore other forms, therefore they do not know any better.

Yiliquan,

I have experience of gradings in other martial arts and the problem has always been the same. Standardisation! I am not against gradings and indeed they can often provide a very strong incentive to training. However, if gradings have nothing to back them up or no standard against which they can be judged, they are worthless pieces of paper (or coloured belts as the case may be). Having visited your web site, I am convinced that your grading system will be strong, fair and worthwhile. However if I set up my own school and instituted gradings and charged $100 a time and handed out couloured belts as and when. What would I be judging my standards against? How would a blue belt in Yang style compare with a blue belt in Chen or Wu or Sun? Would I be pandering to anything other than the ego of my students or the benefit of my bank balance? Indeed this very problem arose in Taijiquan a number of years ago and resulted in the competition routines being evolved. Yet, I have six different videos of six different Masters performing 24 step. Every one is different!!! How would I grade one against the other?

I should not need a coloured belt to display my proficiency in my art. My very bearing, attitute and conduct should do that!

Very Best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

[Taiji fan]

I have recently introduced a grading system within my taiji school...while I agree with what east winds has said
I should not need a coloured belt to display my proficiency in my art. My very bearing, attitute and conduct should do that! I decided to offer some tangible levels of achievemnt to my students to prevent the fustration that I had when I left my first teacher and had no idea of what level I was at in the grand scheme of things.....I had assisted in class and taken classes when my teacher was away...did that make me a teacher? there was no standardised curriculumn and as I have found out since working with my current teacher of nearly 3 years.....I knew very little. So this was why I introduced certain levels or standards to keep a progression in the classes. It is largely based on the external understanding of the body requirements.....eg for level one things like being able to demonstrate correct distances for bow step......its not rocket science, but I have seen people train for years and still do their basic stances incorrectly. In my 'grading system' I hope that at each level all students will have been able to demonstrate an understanding of the same requirements....thus being a standard level. I am not juding what we do in our school against any other school, so yes my system is only applicable in my school, however I hope that it will enable us to run in a more structured way and that should any of my students go on to teach I will have confidence in their abilities because I will have assesed them on at least the mechanics ....which, judging by some of the rubbish passed off as taiji these days, is a helluva lot more than what is taught in some places. Incidently I don't call it a belt system.


By the way, who do these taijiquan forms have to be recognised by? If it is the Chinese government I would be very wary of them. Arithon, the only people necessary to recognise the taiji forms are the families....Yang family, Chen family etc.

[East Winds]

Tajifan,

You have made some very good points and I cannot argue with what you and Yiliquan have said. Honest and responsible gradings have value, as is clearly the case with both your schools. The problem I would have of course is knowing whether I was dealing with a "snake oil seller". I see the Taoist Tai Chi Society accrediting Instructors who have as little as 18 months experience of "Tai Chee" and then being let loose on the general public to run classes. Certainly they do not offer gradings or belts, but I wonder what level of instruction I would be receiving?

It is certainly good to know that you are progressing in the art that you are studying, but as always, the more I learn about Taiji, the more I realise there is to learn about Taiji. I do not offer gradings in my school, merely because after 15 years of training, I am still a student and wonder where a particular colour of belt would place one of my students in the greater scheme of the Tiji world? I wonder what colour of belt my present teacher would give me? (Perhaps I do not want know!!:shrug: )

There are certainly good arguments for and against, but for the present I must come down on the side of the against.

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied "Yes keep doing it"

Very best wishes

[yilisifu]

Taiji Fan,
You are, of course, quite right. There SHOULD be a "standard" against which we measure, but to whom or what do we turn?

Karate ran into this same problem long ago and now we have many different systems which have different standards for various ranks......I suspect that will be the way Taiji may turn out, too.

It is admittedly a real problem and one which needs to be seriously disussed.......

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
I have recently conducted and interview with an Indoor student of Chen Zhen Lei who was visiting the UK last month. He was very interested to see what was happening on the British taiji scene but also did comment on the fairly poor understanding of taiji by Western teachers. It does seem that the way taiji is practised in China and the way it is practised in the West are somewhat different.

This is one major problem I have with “Asian” teachers. Many of them seem to feel you must be from the same genetic gene pool as the art came from to be good at it.
Every once in a while some Japanese will give me grief about being American and how I can’t possible fathom the true essence Karate since I am not Japanese. Funny thing is they will say that even if they are years behind you in training or even if you could drop them on their pompous asses in a nanosecond.
So for me it just sounds totally stupid since Karate is an Okinawan art and Okinawans are genetically different than Japanese. So by the Japanese guy’s logic he is just as lacking as I am.
I have met some Chinese that are this way as well but Japanese tend to be this way to a greater extant.



Originally posted by Taiji fan
For instance, he said that there were only 5 recognised styles in China....Chen, Yang, Wu, Woo, and Sun. He said that when China closed its doors, much of the genuine information regarding taiji had not made it out and many of the texts that were translated were written in 'old' Chinese that even scholars had difficulty understanding and as a result had been embellished or just plainly incorrectly tranlated which he thought was partly why Western taiji has so many variations from teacher to teacher.

I lived in Taiwan for several years and met many really good Chinese martial arts figures.
Oddly enough they said most of the “good” TaiChi/Kung Fu people left China in 1948~49 and went to other Chinese populated countries. I thought this might have been said due to National pride and hatred from communism, but after traveling to China and seeing for myself I tended to agree.
Most of what China has done to their martial arts is similar to what they did to their kanji and that was to “unify” (ugh) the systems so everyone is one the “same page” more or less. This was essentially supposed to bring the standards up to the same level. However, just as communism is supposed to make all people equally prosperous and doesn’t, so too did the “unifying” of martial arts. Communism just made everyone basically equally poor and “unifying” the arts made everyone basically equally so-so in skill.
I have just made a pretty broad generalization since there are 1.2 billion Chinese and a good number do martial arts, but by and large from what I a saw I thought the skill level and “purity” was better in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore.
As for the reading of old Chinese………I doubt they would have trouble reading and understanding it. There are plenty of scholars that can read texts from 400 BC with no problem.



Originally posted by Taiji fan
Essentially much of what we see practised in the West lacks authenticity and many western teachers have little understanding of the complexities of the styles and have gone on to 'make it up' albeit in a well meaning way. This has lead to the creation of 'new' styles and misinterpreation of exsisting ones. He was pleased to see the level of interest in the UK though and hopes that now more people are seeking out the origins and aiming to reach as high a level possible and study the art true to its founders.

This happens in almost every art but is not limited to western countries.
I have seen plenty of fake instructors and dodgy martial arts in Asia as I have seen in the west. Asia has just as many “dan” factories as well.

[chufeng]

That whole "genetics" argument really cheeses my crack...

When I was in Ft. Leonard Wood, Mo., I worked with a lady who was from Bavaria (married to a caucasian officer), NOT a naturalized citizen, who complained about soldiers who went to Korea and brought back "foreigners" for wives...turned my stomach...when I told her I was married to a Filippina, she said, "that's different, they were occupied by Spain and are almost white..." I then reminded her to not forget to inform INS about her recent address change...

When in Hawaii, I met many an angry Samoan who wanted white folks to leave...many of them called me an immigrant...so, I simply asked them where they were from...other than the original Hawaiians, EVERYONE on the islands were immigrants...

Also, while in Hawaii, I shared YiLi's ideas with a Chinese teenager, who belonged to a local "Chinese Association."
When I asked him to share some of his style, he said he couldn't...apparently, unless you were not only Chinese, but of a specific NAME in Chinese, you weren't worthy of the teachings...

Master Arthur Lee and his son (now headmaster of the FutGa system) welcomed me with open arms and shared a wonderful Shaolin system with me...for that openness, Master Lee was ostrasized by the Chinese community (Sifu Lee was the first on the island of Oahu to teach non-Chinese)...

and on and on...

Each and everyone who reads this post has it within themselves to be the very best...it is simply a matter of working hard...

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Taiji Fan,
You are, of course, quite right. There SHOULD be a "standard" against which we measure, but to whom or what do we turn?

Karate ran into this same problem long ago and now we have many different systems which have different standards for various ranks......I suspect that will be the way Taiji may turn out, too.


Good question.
I definitely don’t think having a single entity in control of the grading standard is the way to go.

I think we would see a “dumbing down” of any art that had such a system.
In Japan they have the JKF which is huge organization that has a universal grading standard. This was supposed to bring the level of karate up, however, I still see people with bloated ranks that can’t perform the simplest techniques.
Also, having universal grading standard in Karate for example has made all the lesser-known aspects of the art that much lesser known.
For example, in the 15 years I have lived in Japan I have yet to find a dojo that teaches tuite (not to mention one that even knows what it is), emphasizes kata bunkai, or any other aspect of “old style” karate.
Case in point when I spoke with the head of the JKF (8th or 9th dan in Wado Ryu) and asked him for his thoughts on tuite he had no idea what I was talking about. I asked him what he thought the opening move of a certain kata was (Naihanchi), he said it was an “Okinawan bow”. I said I disagreed and used him for an “uke” (crash dummy) to demonstrate the technique. He didn’t like being used for an “uke” nor did he care for the fact I did it in front of a room full of people from his organization.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

Also, while in Hawaii, I shared YiLi's ideas with a Chinese teenager, who belonged to a local "Chinese Association."
When I asked him to share some of his style, he said he couldn't...apparently, unless you were not only Chinese, but of a specific NAME in Chinese, you weren't worthy of the teachings...
Master Arthur Lee and his son (now headmaster of the FutGa system) welcomed me with open arms and shared a wonderful Shaolin system with me...for that openness, Master Lee was ostrasized by the Chinese community (Sifu Lee was the first on the island of Oahu to teach non-Chinese)...
and on and on...


Don’t even get me started on the “racism in the MA” path………..I have too much experience with that after living here. It really pisses me off.
In fact if I ever write a book that will be several chapters unto itself.

[Erkki]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
This is one major problem I have with “Asian” teachers. Many of them seem to feel you must be from the same genetic gene pool as the art came from to be good at it.
Every once in a while some Japanese will give me grief about being American and how I can’t possible fathom the true essence Karate since I am not Japanese.

So if some of the Japanese believe that statement to be true, would it then also be true that the Japanese can't possibly fathom the true essence of baseball, since they are not American?

;)

Oh yeah, "Hi" from another Yili guy!!! :D

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Erkki
So if some of the Japanese believe that statement to be true, would it then also be true that the Japanese can't possibly fathom the true essence of baseball, since they are not American?


I have actually used that scenario with them and their reply seems to be that western things art don’t have the depth and scope of Japanese things and are therefore not so difficult to comprehend. :rolleyes:
Sadly enough there are still plenty of people in Japanese martial arts that think that way. But the odd thing is, most young Japanese are clueless to martial arts or “Things Japanese” in general.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I have actually used that scenario with them and their reply seems to be that western things art don’t have the depth and scope of Japanese things and are therefore not so difficult to comprehend. :rolleyes:

I take it you don't agree?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
I take it you don't agree?

For the most part no I don’t.

For example, Shinto plays a big part in Sumo. Most, maybe all, Sum wrestlers are not Shintoists and only go through the perfunctory Shinto ceremonies of Sumo.
The real “kicker” is Sumo is actually Mongolian and was “imported” to Japan.

This is the same with many other things that people generally think of as “Japanese”.

Tea ceremony is another good example………it was started in China.
Many Japanese don’t even understand the “whys” and “what fors” of their own culture, so it is rather ridiculous to say that foreigners couldn’t.

[Erkki]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I have actually used that scenario with them and their reply seems to be that western things art don’t have the depth and scope of Japanese things and are therefore not so difficult to comprehend. :rolleyes:


Hahaha!!! Figures. :rolleyes: It's a wonder, since our simple American sport is so easy to comprehend, that MLB isn't overrun with Japanese players. :confused:

[yilisifu]

I've run into the exact same problem with both Japanese and Chinese. I'd have paid good money to watch you dump the Wado-ryu high muckey-muck on his duff....:D

Sadly, many Americans have bought into this same idea; that only the Chinese or Japanese or Okinawans REALLY know a given martial art.....that's poppycock.

When I was in China, I saw what you spoke about, Ryushikan. It was awful. Oddly enough, these same people are now stepping forward and saying, "By the way, you're doing that wrong."
"Please show me the correct way," you ask. "You must attend my seminar and pay xxx dollars first, and then I will show you" is the usual response, more or less.

Sadly, real kung-fu (of any kind) in China is pretty much dead. The forms are there. The techniques are there, for the most part. But fighting skill? Gone. The Cultural Revolution put the tombstone on the grave of kung-fu in China. During that time, NO ONE practiced kung-fu openly and this meant that those who did, did so secretly and gained almost no firsthand experience in fighting.
In fact, once the communists took power, kung-fu went underground for the most part and no one got much experience in such types of training.
The communists took power in 1949, I believe. I would go so far as to guess that unless one put in a good deal of time training prior to that year, one's experience in training real kung-fu (which includes sparring and full-speed applications) is either very limited or non-existant.

I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but it's a fact. I've been there and seen it (as you have)......

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
I've run into the exact same problem with both Japanese and Chinese. I'd have paid good money to watch you dump the Wado-ryu high muckey-muck on his duff....:D

He was small potatoes.
I wish I had a photo of the expression on his face when he got up though.
His face just showed a total loss for words…………but looked as if he might have been saying to himself "Oh God, I have really "F-ed" up this time".
I was actually nice to him and apologized for dumping him on his ass and asked if he was OK several times through out the day.



Originally posted by yilisifu
Sadly, many Americans have bought into this same idea; that only the Chinese or Japanese or Okinawans REALLY know a given martial art.....that's poppycock.

I have met some Japanese and Okinawan Karateka that are supposed to be “da bomb” by some westerners accounts but what I saw of them they were just really sloppy.
One man's garbage is another man's steak I guess.


Originally posted by yilisifu
I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but it's a fact. I've been there and seen it (as you have)......

I get flamed for the same thing. And it is always by the people that have never been there or done it but seem to think they know better for some odd reason.

[chufeng]

Quote by YiLiSifu:


When I was in China, I saw what you spoke about, Ryushikan. It was awful. Oddly enough, these same people are now stepping forward and saying, "By the way, you're doing that wrong."
"Please show me the correct way," you ask. "You must attend my seminar and pay xxx dollars first, and then I will show you" is the usual response, more or less.

I saw advertisement for a TaiJi seminar in the midwest...cost was $100 for one day and $150 for two...

About three months later, the very SAME Taiji instructor offered a seminar on fixing the mistakes taught in the first seminar...cost...$100 per day...

What a deal...pay out the nose for wrong information only to be offered an opportunity to fix it for the same price...

:asian:
chufeng

[Taiji fan]

Can I just point some thing out here. The guy I intereveiwed did not say you have to be Chinese to understand Taijiquan, what he said was the lack of ability of wester taiji players had come from the fact they had not had access to high level teachers....the Taiwan argument is pretty lame as far as taijiquan goes the Chen family and the Yang family do not live in Taiwan.....he said that British taiji teachers lacked the knowledge because they were trying to work stuff out from crudely translated texts and lack of access to the top people, even the way taijiquan is judged in competition is done differently here. He hoped that with access to better training British taiji players would reach higher standards and that of those studying with the families in China.....it has nothing to do with genetics or racism....:rolleyes:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
Can I just point some thing out here. The guy I intereveiwed did not say you have to be Chinese to understand Taijiquan, what he said was the lack of ability of wester taiji players had come from the fact they had not had access to high level teachers

What he said may be true. Most westerners don’t have access to high-level instruction, but many do, and they don’t need to hoik all the way to China to get it.
However, if that’s his argument I could just as easily say the same about many Chinese MA people I have seen. And I have seen some real crap in my days in China……..so by his logic I could say they sucked because they didn’t have access to high-level teachers as well. There will always be skilled and not so skilled MA people teaching, what people should do is find what suits them.


Originally posted by Taiji fan
....the Taiwan argument is pretty lame as far as taijiquan goes the Chen family and the Yang family do not live in Taiwan

Actually no it is not lame, as I was not referring solely to TaiChi but Chinese Martial Arts in general.
As far as TaiChi goes…..does one really have to study from one the Chens or Yangs to get good instruction? Do they offer good instruction or do people just refer to them for “name value”?
The reason why I ask is because I have seen famous MA people that were touted as the end all beat all to their art/style but they “blew dog”.


Originally posted by Taiji fan
.....he said that British taiji teachers lacked the knowledge because they were trying to work stuff out from crudely translated texts and lack of access to the top people, even the way taijiquan is judged in competition is done differently here. He hoped that with access to better training British taiji players would reach higher standards and that of those studying with the families in China.....it has nothing to do with genetics or racism....:rolleyes:

Tournaments are not always a litmus test to ones skill level or lack of. More often than not they are political hotbeds that don’t always measure the arts worthiness but are self serving vehicles for promoting an agenda.

[yilisifu]

For me, the real skill of a martial artists, be he/she a Chinese stylist or anything else, is how effectively they can apply their art under stressful and unrehearsed conditions. Many "Masters" demonstrate their skill by saying, "OK, let me show you...here, throw a punch..." That's a no brainer. He knows what the attack is and when it's coming. To demonstrate ANY style in that fashion is child's play.

And so I am led into another story. A senior student (of over two decades) of a very well-known Taiji teacher visited the school of one of my students one day. He practiced push-hands with them (which I dispute as a method by which to teach fighting skills; it is really only useful as a sensitivity exercise) and did quite well. My impression was that he was a bit impressed with himself.
One of my seniors then asked if he could actually fight with his Taiji and of course, the fellow said he could. So they squared off. They shifted round for a bit, then my student fired a driving reverse punch (out of Xingyi) at the guy (we DO practice that . Alot.) and had to slam on the brakes as the poor fellow hadn't even raised his hands to defend himself.
He simply had no idea what to do. They repeated this exercise a few more times and each time, the visitor was caught flat-footed and unable to defend himself even vaguely.

I understand what the Chinese fellow who was interviewed was saying but it's a very familiar arguement and I would ask, "What are we doing wrong?"

[Taiji fan]

What he said may be true. Most westerners don’t have access to high-level instruction, but many do, and they don’t need to hoik all the way to China to get it. never said they did...this teacher along with Cheng Zheng Lei and Chen Xiao Wang make regular trips to the UK.

Actually no it is not lame, as I was not referring solely to TaiChi but Chinese Martial Arts in general. it is lame as far as the taiji argument goes...this thread is about taiji

As far as TaiChi goes…..does one really have to study from one the Chens or Yangs to get good instruction? if those are the styles you study then why got to the monkey when you can go to the organ grinder...I have seen far to many teachers call their style Yang and be as far away from the principles taught by the family as they can be, its not about a 'name' its about learning from the source. It about getting to the goodies without having to constantly sift through the crap.
Tournaments are not always a litmus test to ones skill level or lack of. More often than not they are political hotbeds that don’t always measure the arts worthiness but are self serving vehicles for promoting an agenda. it has nothing to do with skill or level his comments were to indicate that we had also rearranged the manner in which sompettinos were judged to suit ourselves and if we are going to compete on a world stage ie the Olympics, there is much work to be done at even the organisational level.


I understand what the Chinese fellow who was interviewed was saying but it's a very familiar arguement and I would ask, "What are we doing wrong?" what are we doing wrong? plenty as far as incorrect taiji is concerned. There is no dispute on wether people are good martial artists or not, the argument is not even at that level yet, it is simply that in the fact that people who have had minimal training, minium access to a teacher of a decent level have brought taiji to this country and it has continued to be of a fairly basic standard for the last 20 years. It has been embellished by those wishing to be good taiji fighters when they have not really understood the art (however well meaning they have been) it has been turning into something quite rediculous by the 'new agers'

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

it is lame as far as the taiji argument goes...this thread is about taiji



I see. Have you lived in Taiwan or China and compared the two?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

if those are the styles you study then why got to the monkey when you can go to the organ grinder...I have seen far to many teachers call their style Yang and be as far away from the principles taught by the family as they can be, its not about a 'name' its about learning from the source. It about getting to the goodies without having to constantly sift through the crap.

The reason why I asked is because in the Karate world, for example, many folks believe the best place to learn Funakoshi style Shotokan Karate is at the JKA. Although the JKA is very famous this couldn’t be further from the truth. A better lesser know place is from a Mr. Akamine in Okinawa.
I was just wondering if the “Big Houses” for TaiChi had similar situations.

[Taiji fan]

I see. Have you lived in Taiwan or China and compared the two? uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan. I have no doubt there are many fine martial artists in Taiwan, that is not what I am arguing.
The reason why I asked is because in the Karate world, for example, many folks believe the best place to learn Funakoshi style Shotokan Karate is at the JKA. Although the JKA is very famous this couldn’t be further from the truth. A better lesser know place is from a Mr. Akamine in Okinawa. I do not study karate so I do not have any idea of that. I do however study Yang family taijiquan have have found that much of what I have seen has lacked any of the depth that has come from the Yangs themself. Are there good non chinese teachers? Of course there are, because they have had high level tuition and held true to the principles that the founders have laid down, they haven't added their own 'interpretations'. which is largely what has watered down taijiquan in this country.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan.

Gettin' kinda snippy, aren't ya?
I was just curious. BTW, you didn't answer the question.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Taiji fan
uh which proves? what...the Yang and Chen families live in China end of story...if you are going to the head of the style you are not going to Taiwan.

Not sure if the point has been made in this thread or not, but it should be noted that just because you train with the "head" of a style, it does not necessarily mean you are getting the best instruction, nor receiving the most information...


I do however study Yang family taijiquan have have found that much of what I have seen has lacked any of the depth that has come from the Yangs themself. Are there good non chinese teachers? Of course there are, because they have had high level tuition and held true to the principles that the founders have laid down, they haven't added their own 'interpretations'. which is largely what has watered down taijiquan in this country.

I agree that most martial arts (not just CMA, either) in the US have little in common with their ancestral roots. I think it is rare for MA in the US today to be worth much at all... Sad to say, but unfortunately true...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
.. I think it is rare for MA in the US today to be worth much at all... Sad to say, but unfortunately true...


Which MA? All MA in the US?

[Taiji fan]

:erg:
Gettin' kinda snippy, aren't ya? am I? well it wasn't intended. No haven't lived in neither Taiwan or China, as I said Taiwan has no relevence to where the Yangs and Chens live.


Not sure if the point has been made in this thread or not, but it should be noted that just because you train with the "head" of a style, it does not necessarily mean you are getting the best instruction, nor receiving the most information... Yiliquan 1 I do agree with you too a point, but you have obviously never seen the dire state of taijiquan in the UK as it has been taught so far from what the families intended. There are smalll numbers of teachers who are really teachng good stuff and mostly they are the ones who have gone outside the UK and even Europe for instruction. Every community centre here offers a 'tai cheeeeee' class the standard here is pretty diabolical....well meaning buit low level....people train for years and are never even taught the correct basic stances.

[yilisifu]

I must admit that I don't what the state of Taiji in the UK...sounds like a bunch of new age crispies have been teaching there. In the uS, we have a goodly number of similar wannabees, but there are also some good teachers...

What is discouraging is that for the most part, the vast majority of Taiji practicioners (including teachers) cannot use their art in any practical sense (ie., for actual fighting). Many of them THINK they can, but they are sadly mistaken.

Perhaps it is this kind of thing to which the Chinese fellow was referring.

[Taiji fan]

Yilisifu said.
What is discouraging is that for the most part, the vast majority of Taiji practicioners (including teachers) cannot use their art in any practical sense (ie., for actual fighting). Many of them THINK they can, but they are sadly mistaken and what this has also lead to is some pretty reasonable martial artists, making up stuff but selling it under the banner of taijiquan. Many of those who profess to be able to fight with taiji, are not using the taiji applications but simply bits and pieces from other arts, they can still fight but it is still not taiji fighting......

[yilisifu]

Yes, that's a fairly common thing in the US as well. OK - NOW I think I understand what you have been talking about.

I agree that much of the "real" Taiji has not been taught to people - but that also includes China. Real Taiji there is as rare as it is here. The outer form LOOKS authentic enough, but it's like a doughnut - nothing in the center.

The OLD training methods were quite rigorous; pretty much the opposite of what the new agers view as Taiji (or Bagua, for that matter). One Chinese friend of mine watched a Taiji demo by the student of a well-known teacher here and said it was "dead style of Taiji." No life. No spirit.

The problem is that many people nowadays get into Taiji because they've heard that it's so good for your health and it's so EASY and GENTLE to practice, with no STRAINING and it moves nice and SLOW...horsepoop. They wouldn't last fifteen minutes in a real, old-fashioned Taiji class where training is extremely strenuous, painful, causes muscles to ache and cramp and makes you sweat into your socks.......

[Taiji fan]

Yes, you have hit the nail right on the head.....infact I heard a story, can't remember who it was refering too but it concerned two brothers, their taiji training was so hard that one ran away and the other tried to commit suicide.....

[chufeng]

Moving slowly is much harder than moving fast...
...and the slower you can move (correctly) the faster you actually become...Doing TaiJi correctly is like perpetual MaBu training...

:asian:
chufeng

[TkdWarrior]

taiji fan the story comes from the Yang Family itself...
it's about Yang Banhou/PanHou n yang shou hou
one tried to commit suicide n other tried to run away n become monk but Lu chan found him n make him come back...
-TkdWarrior-

[Taiji fan]

:o TKDWarrior....thank you fopr making me feel thouroughly embarrased........Like I know my arts history...ooops

:D

[TkdWarrior]

:D don't worry u were not embarrased by Pure TKDist ;)
BTW i do Sun(73) & Yang(24/42) styles :) :cool:
-TkdWarrior-

[yilisifu]

Yes, if you read the histories of these grothers (as I'm sure you have) and others who became well-known in the art, you can easily see that their training was extremely strenuous and even brutal. Not at all what we see nowadays (what I call "fields and flowers" Taiji).....

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Yes, if you read the histories of these grothers (as I'm sure you have) and others who became well-known in the art, you can easily see that their training was extremely strenuous and even brutal. Not at all what we see nowadays (what I call "fields and flowers" Taiji).....


I would be very interested in knowing what kinds of drills you are referring to. All I have encountered in a supposedly martial arts oriented version of Sun style Taiji is push hands, forms and Qigong.

Are they similar to, for example, Ba Gua body conditioning exercises and two man fighting sets?

FC

[yilisifu]

Well, it doesn't involve the same measure of body twisting that one sees in Bagua.....I nevcer had much use for two-man sets as they tend to develop fixed responses.

But.

The practice of individual parts of postures used to be heavily emphasized (these are akin to single basic techniques) along with stepping and body shifting exercises.

Push-hands was always used only as a sensitivity exercise. Nowadays, a lot of people tend to think that it actually prepares you for fighting but nothing could be further from the truth. People have misunderstood the nature and meaning of "adhere" or "sticking" energy and this has led to this misconception, I think.

Chigong training begins as a gentle method but eventually becomes quite strenuous - even painful at times and it is practiced in stages over a long period of time. This includes fajin;the ability to emit energy through various parts of the body.

Old-fashioned Taiji training actually involved the use of some weight-training devices (not as we think of them in body-building training in the Occident) and exercises, heavy bag exercises, and other such things.

I train my students in this same manner (although they also learn Bagua and Xingyi) and they develop very high-level fighting skills.

[TkdWarrior]

excercises like very low postures n very very slow moving, excercises with heavy ball etc etc... i think u'll classify as killing enuff... then some reaaallllll fightings :D
i do like two man fighting sets but seriously i dont' want to be bind with them(as yilisifu already said)...
there's lot of info on peter lam's site(n i forgot the link, anyone?)
-TkdWarrior-

[East Winds]

It is arrant nonsense to say that "real" taiji in China is rare! If you go to China as a tourist, you will see tourist Taiji. If you go to train you will see "real" taiji. Incidentally peple who think that taji is ONLY about fighting have a serious gap in their knowledge and training schedule and would perhaps be inclined to think that "real" taiji was rare. I would however agree with Taijifan that "made up" forms have no place in the IMA's.

Best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by East Winds
..... Incidentally peple who think that taji is ONLY about fighting....

I thought the opposite is true. Most people don't think much about the fighting capability of taiji practitioners.

Just curious, how many taiji practitioners can really fight? How many of the so called masters are just hiding behind some myth?

[yilisifu]

Having been to China - to train - I KNOW that real Taiji is rare. This is true of many others who have gone there to train. The forms are authentic enough, but true fighting skill is almost non-existant.

No, Taiji isn't just about fighting. No real martial art is. But if one cannot apply it in that way, one is being seriously short-changed and learning only half an art.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by yilisifu
.....but true fighting skill is almost non-existant.....


Are you just referring to Taiji in China?

I would venture to say that 9999 out of 10000 Taiji practitioners cannot fight to save his life. I am aware of the story about Kyokushin founder Mas Oyama was defeated at the hands of a Taiji elder and became his student. That is more like the exception than the norm.

[chufeng]

Nonsense???

China has 1.2 billion+ people...
If there is a concentration of TaiJi in a couple of villages, that still qualifies as RARE...You see "common" would mean that in any city or village one could find a TaiJi instructor who still had "The Heart of TaiJi" to pass on...that is not the case, however...

YiLiSifu did not go to China as a tourist...
He was invited to go as a representative of Chinese martial arts as practiced in the United States...he met several of the REAL martial artists while he was over there...THEY told him about how RARE real fighting skill was in China...the focus had been turned toward health maintenance and showy demonstration type stuff.

I agree with J.Napalm...very few people who practice TaiJi can fight with it...those that can are the exception, not the rule.

Perhaps you, EastWinds, have a deeper understanding of your art than most...that still does not make it common...you are, however, uncommon.

:asian:
chufeng

[East Winds]

Chufeng,

You mis-represent what I said. I did not say that fighting Taiji was common. I merely stated that it was not rare. There is a significant difference. And yes of course you are right. The focus has been turned towards health maintenance. And again yes, in a population of 1.2 billion (your figures), I would be extremely surprised if the majority could use Taiji as a fighting art! You need to forget the Beijing's and the Shanghai's if you want to find "real" taiji. But of course REAL fighters will never advertise themselves, or boast of having humiliated a teacher in front of his students by demonstrating a technique. But by their very demeanour, manner and method of teaching, you KNOW they can fight. They don't need to demonstrate it!

And Yilisifu you are also correct. If you cannot use Taiji to fight you have only learned half the art. And of course, conversely, if you use Taji ONLY to fight, you have also only learned half the art. Too many people forget that Taiji also has a Yin element.

Someone asked on another thread what was the difference between external and internal arts. I think on this thread we are slowly finding out!

Very best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Ta Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

[chufeng]

Eastwinds, we've had discussions in the past regarding TaiJi and the internal arts...I think we both agree on most points...I certainly agree that there is more to TaiJi than fighting...much more...but to ignore that part is wrong, as well...'nuff said...

I guess our dispute (if you can call it that) stems from the definition of rare.

I think it rare that people study TaiJi...
...and I think it is even more rare to find people who study TaiJi who really know what they are doing.

OK, maybe "common" is not what you said...but, please define rare for me...
1:100,000?


:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Maybe my understanding of the history of Taiji is incorrect, but wasn't the origin of Chen Taiji a combination of local village skills mixed with the skills passed on by a soldier?

It was my understanding that the entire "not for fighting" aspect of Taiji was a much later development (likely due to the added qigong practice and development).

It would seem to me (as a soldier) that it would be odd for a military force to teach meditational and philosophical skills for the well-being of their troops... The primary focus for soldiers is fighting - powerfully, and right now. Little time is available for allowing the soldiers to develop their "yin side."

Just curious. I know what Taiji is today, I am addressing what it was at the moment of its conception...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by East Winds
....But by their very demeanour, manner and method of teaching, you KNOW they can fight. They don't need to demonstrate it!


This is hardly sufficient to judge. I believe the expression, "looks good on paper and sounds good in theory" comes to mind. :asian:

I would venture to say that failure to realistically test the effectiveness of their techniques and skills, is an open invitation to "rude awakening". Hopefully they never have to use their skills.

[yilisifu]

Exactly. I have met numerous martial artists who have (or had) sterling reputations as fighters because of their appearance, demeanor, and talk. They could certainly talk the talk.

I also witnessed them get the stuffing pounded out of them (often by those very people they insulted). Clearly, they couldn't walk the walk.

[East Winds]

"Walk the Walk, Talk the Talk, Getting the stuffing pounded out of them". Are we REALLY talking about an internal art here? If we are, then I'm afraid our definitions must be remarkably different as must have been our teachings. It would appear that the essence has been lost or at least become obscured, much like present day Judo.

And Yiliquan1, Sorry, I don't know the REAL history of Taiji, nor do I suspect does anyone else.

"Whosoever knows how to lead well is not warlike : Whosoever knows how to fight well is not angry : Whosoever knows how to conquer enemies does not fight them : Whosoever knows how to use men well, keeps himself below"

These are the tennets of a real internal art. These are the tennets taught by my Master. If you ignore them, you cannot claim to be practising an internal art!

Best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, "Yes keep doing it"

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by East Winds
"Walk the Walk, Talk the Talk, Getting the stuffing pounded out of them". Are we REALLY talking about an internal art here? If we are, then I'm afraid our definitions must be remarkably different as must have been our teachings. It would appear that the essence has been lost or at least become obscured, much like present day Judo.

Since you are in the UK you may wish to have a look at a TV program produced by the BBC back in the mid 1980’s called “Way of the Warrior”.
Look for the one that had a man in it called Hung Yi Shang (Tai Chi was the theme of the show)…….I think it will answer your question and be an eye opener for you at the same time.
I had the good fortune to meet Hung Yi Shang when I lived in Taiwan.

[chufeng]

If the martial applications won't work in an unrehearsed, full tilt boogie, attack...then you aren't learning the martial applications. The only way to test that is to train, full tilt boogie, from time to time.

Certainly the philosophical, the intrinsic, the esoteric are important...probably MORE important...but, to say you are learning a martial art and then never test whether it works is burying your head in the sand...

If you do train hard and fast from time to time, good for you...but your posts seem to indicate that WE somehow don't "get it" because we like to mix it up...

:asian:
chufeng

[East Winds]

Chufeng,

Could not agree more!! You've put it in a nut shell. Yes I do train "full tilt" FROM TIME TO TIME. Yes I do practise applications full speed. It just seemed from the posts here, that that type of training was the be all and end all of training! That the fighting aspect was ALL important! Just trying to put the balanced point of view that fighting is the last resort in a conflict situation. But if you need to, you can!

Best wishes



"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Keep doing it"

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds
"Walk the Walk, Talk the Talk, Getting the stuffing pounded out of them". Are we REALLY talking about an internal art here?

You bet.


If we are, then I'm afraid our definitions must be remarkably different as must have been our teachings. It would appear that the essence has been lost or at least become obscured, much like present day Judo.

It would appear that the essence has been lost or obscured if a person genuinely believes that fighting arts, regardless of their esoteric nature, evolved to what they are without having to prove themselves time and time again... If I recall correctly, most, if not all, of the luminaries of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua had to do quite a bit of "put up or shut up" over the years. Many Xingyi and Bagua practitioners were guards of one sort or another. Why? Because they believed fighting was not the "way" of their art? Hardly.


"Whosoever knows how to lead well is not warlike : Whosoever knows how to fight well is not angry : Whosoever knows how to conquer enemies does not fight them : Whosoever knows how to use men well, keeps himself below"

These are the tennets of a real internal art. These are the tennets taught by my Master. If you ignore them, you cannot claim to be practising an internal art!

Then I guess by your definition and logic if someone is not following the tenets set out by your teacher, they are not studying an internal art. Those sayings have merit, but sound a whole lot like someone echoing the Tao Te Ching - a semi-religious book. When did martial arts, internal or otherwise, require religious teaching to qualify their martial nature? Religion has surely accompanied many arts over the years, but remove the religion and the fighting art remains.

Internal and External are relative and mislabeling terms. They are artificial contrivances applied originally by people who didn't understand the terms today. The longer I practice my "internal" boxing, the more I realize how inappropriate both terms are, and how much "internal martial arts" has come to symbolize some new-age, fluffy, hand holding, crystal wearing, feather carrying, animal feces.

Martial arts are about fighting. To say they aren't is laughable. If they aren't, then why do we do so? The philosophical and spiritual development is a result of the fighting training. Warriors who have been exposed to combat and warfare tend to be far more peaceful than the young bucks who have yet to see it. Why? Experience. So as we train and fight and learn, we develop those philosophical and spiritual advances that we all feel are the true aim of martial study.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[East Winds]

Yiliquan1,

Thank you! Keep training and one day you may begin to understand the internal nature of Taijiquan.

Incidentally, what form of Taijiquan do you Yiliquan guys train?


Regards

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"

[chufeng]

EastWinds,


It just seemed from the posts here, that that type of training was the be all and end all of training! That the fighting aspect was ALL important!

The "new age" taiji practitioners can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack...THIS type of taiji is prevalent in the U.S.

Certainly, there are some schools that offer decent instruction...and the majority of training revolves around form practice, qigong, and push hands...with the occasional combat applications thrown in for good measure...

The emphasis in YiLiQuan is NOT to fight...
The choice NOT to fight must come from a position of strength...
The ethics, or morality, of choosing not to fight are MEANINGLESS if you don't have the ability to do so...
We do train in the combat applications...hoping that we never need to use them...our training is realistic in that the attacks are full force...the defenses though, follow the tenet of non-resistance and softness...the counters are intrinsic in nature...

What methods of TaiJi do we train in?
The simplified 24 step form is our beginner's form...
The much longer "combined" set is our senior form...
I realize that neither of these forms are representative of Yang or Chen style TaiJi...but they are the forms we use and they DO teach many of the fundamentals of TaiJi...
Our other internal arts include XingYi and BaGua...

WE don't claim to know as much about TaiJi as you do...
WE don't think that any ONE system has all of the answers...
WE don't think that you have all of the answers but we are willing to share ideas...

To assume that Yiliquan1 does not have a grasp of the "internal" is like gazing into a crystal ball...I assure you he does understand...but he and I both can learn more...

Good day

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds
Yiliquan1,

Thank you! Keep training and one day you may begin to understand the internal nature of Taijiquan.

Excuse me? :confused:

At what point did I somehow get rated as not knowing the internal nature of Taijiquan?

Here's the thing -

A punch does not "teach" a philosophical principle. It may be used as an allegorical reference to a philosophical principle to communicate a larger meaning, but a punch is still a punch (until it isn't).

The practical application of that punch is not to display to the student a meditative concept, but rather to crush flesh and bone beneath it (until such force is no longer needed).

I do fully understand (the beginnings) of "internal philosophy," however my understanding simply finds a different method of expression than yours...

Yiliquan is primarily a philosophy that finds its expression and a simple method of communication via physical techniques and methods of dealing with incoming aggression. At first you learn to fight. Later you learn how to use the exact strategies and techniques you learned to fight with to deal with non-physical attacks.

I think you and I have similar understandings, just, as I said, different expressions of our understandings.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[East Winds]

Chufeng and Yiliquan1,

Thanks for the information. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I also teach 24 step, but only for health. However I do teach it as I would teach Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan and not in the "Wushu" or "Competition" way that you normally see it. Interestingly enough, there was no member of the Yang family on the committee which formulated this form. I have seen the combined form performed many times but have no experience of it myself.

It seems that you guys don't place much emphasis of pushing hands. Can I ask how you train and practise your Jings (Jins)?

Best wishes



"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied "Yes, keep doing it!"

[Taiji fan]

What methods of TaiJi do we train in? The simplified 24 step form is our beginner's form...
The much longer "combined" set is our senior form...
I realize that neither of these forms are representative of Yang or Chen style TaiJi...but they are the forms we use and they DO teach many of the fundamentals of TaiJi...
:) now I understand why our discussions tend to go awry, and also possibly what the Chinese gentleman was refering to in the interview. While these forms were devised in China, unlike the Cheng Man Ching forms, they really have little bearing on what it is like to study a family style.......this is not a my style is better than yours statement.....I studied the simplified form for 8 years continually and it was only upon meeting and subsequently studying with a Trad. Yang teacher that I saw what a huge difference there were in the styles. The simplified form teaches little more than how to move slowley. It has become a form more for show than to have even any more than superficial health benefits. The moves are all still applications but, the over emphaised, embellished moves render the applications useless when practiced as per the form. This is not the case in Trad. Yang where the movements are, at the very basic level, mechanically the same as the way they are 'performed' in the sequence. There is a feel good factor when going through simplified, the same as any kind of movement, but to really get into the internal aspect of taiji means understanding (at quite some depth) why the body is lined up the way it is and the understanding (by that I mean demonstrating in your actual practice...not reading a book and being able to recite it) the method of the 10 essences. It is a hugely complex art in this way.
My teacher is from Yang Zhen Ji's lineage (having studied directly with him). He is not the favoured representitive of the family by the Chinese government, his taiji is different than even Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun (who is an acomplished taiji player). If you get a chance to experience a teacher who studies the family style, don't pass it up, you really will be astounded. I abandoned the simplifed form and wondered what the hell I had been doing all those years after just a couple of sessions with my current teacher.
East Winds: Interesting that you teach the simplifed form " I do teach it as I would teach Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan" I guess that would probably be a good way doing it, but I bet that means you are not popular with the establishement.........Just thinking over moves you would have to modify....grasp sparrows tail for a start! ;)

[East Winds]

Taijifan,

Yes, you are correct. None of my students would ever win a "Simplified" competition. I teach 24 step, to incorporate Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences (with particular emphasis on the first 5). This of course changes the postural and structural requirements that are normally present in the "competition" form. It does however return a more representative "Yang" flavour to the form. It is also the way Master Christopher Pei of the United States Wushu Academy teaches that particular form.

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, Yes, keep doing it"

Best wishes

[Taiji fan]

What I found with the way simplified was taught (at least to me) was that the emphasis was on performance and not structure. The movemnt from frame to frame smoothly was more important than establishing your root and really getting an understanding of the weight changes. Often we would be shifting the weight before the lead foot was in full contact with the ground.
the reason I thought of grasp sparrows tail was the application of the roll back into squeeze...we were taught to do a large sweeping movement for roll back, which at the end, we let our opponant go :rolleyes: and then went on to squeeze. My teacher places alot of emphaisis on the first essence (high spirit) and that without it the otheres can not be in place sucessfully. This was never even mentioned in the 8 years I sudied simplified. Maybe I just had a bad teacher...it is always possible to be wise after the event..:asian:

[East Winds]

Can't argue with any of that Taijifan!

It has been said on this board that "real" Taiji does not exist any more. "Real" Taiji DOES exist!!! It is the original essence that has been lost with the introduction and proliferation of "modern" competition forms. (24 step simplified, 48 combined and 88 step). They contain none of Yang Cheng-fu's original 10 essences. And as you say Taijifan, if you do not even incorporate the first essence (High Spirit), how can you hope to be practising "real" taiji? And by that I mean fighting taiji!!! The Wushu organisations have a lot to answer for!

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my master replied, "Yes, keep doing it!"

Very best wishes