belt stripes

[kingkong89]

i have a question, traditionally when a student gets their black belt they are then known as first dan, what i was wondering if they had one red stripe on there belt it still signifies first dan, because 2 red stripes means second dan. what do you say:asian: :karate:

[chinto01]

That was the way it was done in the dojo I started at. Since moving on the dojo that I am at now does not put stripes on Black Belts.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Saki]

I just don't think you need any strip on your belt. A Black Belt is a Black Belt. It should be something that is "known" as to who is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher. If I was visiting a dojo, i'd always line up last of Black Belts untill someone asked and said I should move up the line. I sure as heck don't want strips on my Black Belt- that just seems like an ego stroke to me.

Just my opinion. So- to answer the question- in the 3 styles I have been in- NO- no one wore stripes on their Black Belt.

Heck- I think stripes on underrank are silly and not needed.

[Kong Soo Do]

I've mentioned this before here on the board; when George Matson (first American Uechi Ryu BB) was training in Okinwa, the students he trained with wore white belts. Their Karate was extremely powerful and later he learned they were all Godan (5th Dan). They just never got around to getting a BB and didn't think it would help their training if they got one. That can be applied to stripes as well. Good for the ego I suppose but doesn't make a difference in your training.

[Bill Mattocks]

In my dojo, it's only the kids who wear stripes on their belts. Adults do not, and black belts definitely do not.

[Steve]

I think it depends entirely upon what the conventions are in both the style and the school you train.

Stripes are pretty common in BJJ, although not all schools use them. Since it's typical to keep a colored belt for a couple of years, stripes are a handy middle ground between belt promotions. Black belts for anything other than competition ranking could be considered all about ego, stripes or not. If competition isn't a part of your style, what's the point of rank at all, if not to stroke one's ego?

[Thesemindz]

The kenpo I trained in had single red stripes for the first four ranks of black, then a solid five inch red bar, then a bar and stripes for six through nine, then two solid red bars for tenth.

Stripes are no more an ego stroke than any other ranking system is. It all comes down to how and why ranks are used within the style. They aren't inherently good or bad, they just are. Some people use the red on their belts as a weapon to intimidate others, some use it to signify the amount of material they've been exposed to, some don't bother with stripes at all. Some don't bother with belts at all. I have yet to see a belt or a stripe on a belt be the difference in a physical encounter.


-Rob

[stone_dragone]

In my original school, black belts are black belts. Some have stripes for degrees, some don't. Everyone knows who's who.

In my TKD school, most wear the association embroidered belt with roman numerical rank (I - V) - 5th was the highest I saw in the school and I'm not sure how the bigger wigs did it.

Third school had rank stripes on one side - white for jr bb, yellow fir teen bb, and red for adult bb (different sets of expectations).

Once I got to Kenpo, the black belt convention is as described above (red stripes and bars) worn on both sides.

When I go visiting, I wear whatever is appropriate.

Stripes do not always equal ego... Unless they do.


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[Cyriacus]

Well, here you get a Gold Embroided Roman Numeral Number on your Belt.
Makes sense to me.

[tinker1]

Thinking back, I can't recall any of my earliest teachers having anything on their belts. I didn't see anything like that until the 70's. I wonder if embroidery machines back then couldn't do karate belts?People... Americans.. Europeans... Like goals. I've trained in lots of schools and systems that didn't give belts. Wing Lam, from whom I studied northern Sil Lum back in the early 70's used to joke saying that all he had was a white belt.. Because he wore a white rope around his waist, while we, his students, all wore black sashes. Later when I ran my own school, I found goals a useful motivator for my students. Goals not only with rank are useful, but also flexibility, strength, and endurance.

[oftheherd1]

Silly me. I always thought stripes (and tapes) were for commercial gain. A goal that one had to test for and the test had to be paid for.

In the Jhoon Rhee TKD I once studied, and in the Hapkido I later studied, we had colored belts, but no stripes. There were no stripes on black belts either. You just asked what a person's BB rank was.

[Kong Soo Do]

I could see stripes on kyu/gup belts for children, I suppose, as a motivtional tool. An adult shouldn't need them for motivation....should they? As far as black belts, well...maybe this is just silly talk, but shouldn't a persons skill speak for their level? And if they are of an age that they can't 'do', perhaps their knowledge and teaching ability speak for itself rather than some embroidered cloth?

Seems back in the day before belts that everyone in the school knew who the teacher was and who the senior students were just by looking at them. BTW, I haven't worn a belt since 2005 and no one in my school has failed to recognize me as the teacher. ;)

[Steve]

Silly me. I always thought stripes (and tapes) were for commercial gain. A goal that one had to test for and the test had to be paid for.

In the Jhoon Rhee TKD I once studied, and in the Hapkido I later studied, we had colored belts, but no stripes. There were no stripes on black belts either. You just asked what a person's BB rank was.
Part of what I really like about BJJ is that there is a very specific, rational reason for the belt colors. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that this is the same reason Kano gave belts out in the first place at the Kodokan: to match up opponents of reasonably equivalent skill/experience.

I will admit that the implication that stripes are a way of selling out rings hollow to me. Once again, it depends entirely upon the culture and norms of the style within which you train. If belt testing and rank progression is a revenue stream for the hosting school, you could have 5 colors and no stripes and I'd consider it selling out. In other words, paying for a color or paying for a stripe... what's the difference?

If your school doesn't charge fees for rank progression, you could have 100 different belt colors or stripes, and I'd see no problem with it.

How many colored belts did you have? Did you pay to test for those colored belts? What about dan testing? My understanding is that often the price goes up at black belt. Is that the case at your school?

I don't know about any other style, but at my school, which is pretty typical for BJJ, you don't test for a new belt or a new stripe. You don't pay for them, either. At the end of class every month or two, as we're lining up, Coach pulls out some athletic tape and, occasionally, a new belt.

[oftheherd1]

How many colored belts did you have? Did you pay to test for those colored belts? What about dan testing? My understanding is that often the price goes up at black belt. Is that the case at your school?

...

With Jhoon Rhee the progression was white, green, blue, brown, black. In Sung Moo Kwan Hapkido it was white, yellow, blue, red, black. In both, 2 each until brown/red, where it was 4, the BB.

Although I can see your point about any color belts being a cop out, why increase the amount of steps by two or more, each presumably needing another paid test? In my Hapkido, yes, there was a nominal fee for colored belt tests. At BB, there was a fee for practice test, and for actual BB test, which was normally at the Korean Hapkido Federation's headquarters in Seoul. In Jhoon Rhee's TKD I recall a test fee for colored belts. I am sure there was one for BB, but I didn't get that far.

[Steve]

Why pay? Why test? Unless your style incorporates competition where matching up equivalent competitors, why have belts at all?

[Kong Soo Do]

If competition isn't a part of your style, what's the point of rank at all, if not to stroke one's ego?

I believe this stems from Funakoshi Sensei to be honest. In 1924, Funakoshi Sensei implemented the Dan/kyu rank system. He was personal friends of Kano Jigoro Sensei and asked if he could use the system, Kano Jigoro Sensei gave his permission. This was to satisfy several Japanese requirements placed on Funakoshi Sensei i.e. establish a rank structure, uniform etc. Remember, at his time in history, Japan was extremely Imperialistic and martial. Ranks structures were ingrained in the society so it follows that it would be so in Karate as well. Competitions may have played a very small part of the requirement, but it would have been implemented regardless of competition or not. So originally at least, it was more a societal thing than ego (though ego plays a part in many things we do, including rank).

And if we're honest, ego still plays a part. If not, people would care about the color of their belt and/or number of stripes. They would be content to let their skill and/or knowledge speak for itself. Same in a competition venue, you really don't need colored belts to match people of comparative skill levels. That is taken care of during registration. Same in a school setting, students pretty much know who-is-who. I suppose I'm a bit of a throw-back on this (and many other) points. Like I mentioned, I haven't worn a belt since 2005 and even before then it was spotty at best. Same with the students. They knew who I was and I, like a good instructor, knew who they were and what level they were at.

:)

[Cyriacus]

Come to think of it, Depending on your Style, couldnt Belts help to Compartmentalise when things are Taught?

[Steve]

I believe this stems from Funakoshi Sensei to be honest. In 1924, Funakoshi Sensei implemented the Dan/kyu rank system. He was personal friends of Kano Jigoro Sensei and asked if he could use the system, Kano Jigoro Sensei gave his permission. This was to satisfy several Japanese requirements placed on Funakoshi Sensei i.e. establish a rank structure, uniform etc. Remember, at his time in history, Japan was extremely Imperialistic and martial. Ranks structures were ingrained in the society so it follows that it would be so in Karate as well. Competitions may have played a very small part of the requirement, but it would have been implemented regardless of competition or not. So originally at least, it was more a societal thing than ego (though ego plays a part in many things we do, including rank).

And if we're honest, ego still plays a part. If not, people would care about the color of their belt and/or number of stripes. They would be content to let their skill and/or knowledge speak for itself. Same in a competition venue, you really don't need colored belts to match people of comparative skill levels. That is taken care of during registration. Same in a school setting, students pretty much know who-is-who. I suppose I'm a bit of a throw-back on this (and many other) points. Like I mentioned, I haven't worn a belt since 2005 and even before then it was spotty at best. Same with the students. They knew who I was and I, like a good instructor, knew who they were and what level they were at.

:)I was with you until you got to the competition part. When you have 500 competitors registering for an event, color of belts works as well now as it did in the late 1800s/early 1900s. While BJJ could eliminate the belts and move to a beginner/novice/advanced/elite model such as is commonly used in sub grappling, there's a practical reason to keep them. It's the same reason they were originally developed, and there's no reason to change. It's a convention.

One key distinction, however, is that this is a convention that remains practical. And the other key here is that in BJJ, they are not paid for.

[MAist25]

It seems odd to me that so many people question the purpose of belts or even rank systems as a whole. People always criticize belts, sashes, stripes, etc. yet they are more often than not the ones with the "fanciest" belts. I think everyone understands that belts arent really necessary at all, but people, especially in our culture, just simply enjoy tying on their belt each class because it means something to them. We like to have physical and tangible things that represent the time and effort we put into our arts. Is it an ego thing? Maybe, but not necessarily. Is this feeling like we need to have a physical object to make us more secure about ourselves a good thing? Not really, but thats pretty much how things are today. Belts are great to hide behind when your skill and knowledge arent equal to what that belt is supposed to represent. Maybe i just woke up on the wrong side of the bed today lol

[KempoGuy06]

im indifferent about the belts. In SKK we have the traditional colors as well as some striped belts higher up to break up the ranks. the we have black belt and 1st -10th degree. I like the belts simply because its a mile marker system in my opinion but if my instructor was to do away with it i wouldnt care.

B

[Thesemindz]

Come to think of it, Depending on your Style, couldnt Belts help to Compartmentalise when things are Taught?

As I understand it, this is the only reason belts exist.


-Rob

[Thesemindz]

Why pay? Why test? Unless your style incorporates competition where matching up equivalent competitors, why have belts at all?

Because some styles teach the material in a progressive manner where earlier skills are the foundation for later skills. In cases like this, it isn't about competition, it's about organizing the curriculum. Could you do this without belts? Of course. But many schools choose to use belts for this purpose.


-Rob

[Thesemindz]

One key distinction, however, is that this is a convention that remains practical. And the other key here is that in BJJ, they are not paid for.

I paid for my tests. It didn't bother me. Color ranks were fifteen dollars, and my black belt test was a hundred. Considering that the tests were special events that occurred outside normal school hours and were officiated over by a panel of black belt instructors I don't think that's unreasonable at all. My black belt test was six hours long and had six black belt instructors with well over a hundred years of combined martial arts experience, I don't think paying two bucks an hour for their time was inappropriate.

Are there schools that push students to test and charge huge fees for belts? Sure. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone who charges for what they do is a thief. Experts deserve to be compensated for their expertise. I appreciate that in BJJ ranking is more informal, and I don't think that makes it any less legitimate. But in the school I came up in, testing for rank was an important and intimate ritual. Different strokes.


-Rob

[Kong Soo Do]

Some very good comments in this thread :)


When you have 500 competitors registering for an event, color of belts works as well now as it did in the late 1800s/early 1900s.

Point taken.


And the other key here is that in BJJ, they are not paid for.

Can't argue with that at all.

From Thesemindz

I paid for my tests. It didn't bother me. Color ranks were fifteen dollars, and my black belt test was a hundred. Considering that the tests were special events that occurred outside normal school hours and were officiated over by a panel of black belt instructors I don't think that's unreasonable at all. My black belt test was six hours long and had six black belt instructors with well over a hundred years of combined martial arts experience, I don't think paying two bucks an hour for their time was inappropriate.

In this circumstance I agree, it isn't inappropriate at all. Very reasonable. Much better than those places that charge $50 for a piece of tape.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why pay? Why test?
Why test? For the same reason that we take tests in school. Also, it forces the student to perform under a different kind of pressure than that of competition. Also, a test should be used to evaluate the student and to help determine where they need to be focusing on in order to progress.

As for why pay, I have made many statements on this forum to the effect that students should not be paying for colored belt tests at all. As for dan grades, I can understand a nominal fee to cover association costs and such, but really, it shouldn't go much beyond that.

I do not charge my students for kyu/geub tests.


Unless your style incorporates competition where matching up equivalent competitors, why have belts at all?
One reason is that with a large class, it helps the instructor at a glance to see who is at what level. That and some people function well with visual indicators of progress.

Another is that people expect that there are colored belts in a martial arts class.

Daniel

[KempoGuy06]

We have tests and we have test fees. Yellow through blue/green stripe is $25 (not to unreasonable). Green through 1st degree brown is $50 (i was a little shocked at this until i test for green and it was 5 hours long) and i believe Black and up is $100. I have been training for a little over 5 year and at only $225 for test thus far i really cant complain. There is a local school that charges WAY more than that and it is rumored that they have a $500 black belt test but they are also joked on as the local McDojo so there you go.

B

[stone_dragone]

Much better than those places that charge $50 for a piece of tape.

Off topic...this reminds me of a recent trip to the mechanic for state inspection. They wanted tocharge me $75 to diagnose my "Check Engine" light. I asked why I was paying $75 for them to hook up a lttle box to my steering column...they said "We're not charging you to hook up the box...we're charging you to read the numbers off the box."

They're not charging for the tape...they're charging for the expertise of putting the tape on the belt!

[KempoGuy06]

Off topic...this reminds me of a recent trip to the mechanic for state inspection. They wanted tocharge me $75 to diagnose my "Check Engine" light. I asked why I was paying $75 for them to hook up a lttle box to my steering column...they said "We're not charging you to hook up the box...we're charging you to read the numbers off the box."

They're not charging for the tape...they're charging for the expertise of putting the tape on the belt!

That is a good way to put it.

a little more about me...

I dont mind paying the test fees especially since my instructor worked out a deal with me when i couldnt afford to train anymore. In exchange for being able to continue to train i had to clean the school...not a bad deal. Also he works BJJ with me in private for no charge. He does it more so he has a body to work with but i also get to train and learn for free.

So whats a couple $$$ over my lifetime in tests fees. Nothing in the grand scheme of things

B

[OKenpo942]

Hmmm. Why do lieutenants have one bar and a captain two on their collars? Or a sgt. with his stripes, or a corporal? Why the stars or oak cluster? I don't know. Maybe so that outsiders or newbies know who's who. I agree that everyone that trains at a certain location regularly should know where everyone is in the food chain (just like on a military base), but I also think it is helpful for those that are visiting or the new folks.

We never wore belts at all at the place where I trained except on testing day (we did not have to pay for testing) or during demos (most likely at another school) and at the occasional tournament. I can see it both ways, but think that it can be helpful. Don't much care either way, but I do think ego and/or $$$ can be a factor as well. We'll see on the mat.

James

[Steve]

Hmmm. Why do lieutenants have one bar and a captain two on their collars? Or a sgt. with his stripes, or a corporal? Why the stars or oak cluster? I don't know. Maybe so that outsiders or newbies know who's who. I agree that everyone that trains at a certain location regularly should know where everyone is in the food chain (just like on a military base), but I also think it is helpful for those that are visiting or the new folks.

We never wore belts at all at the place where I trained except on testing day (we did not have to pay for testing) or during demos (most likely at another school) and at the occasional tournament. I can see it both ways, but think that it can be helpful. Don't much care either way, but I do think ego and/or $$$ can be a factor as well. We'll see on the mat.

JamesNothing at all wrong with this, but not my cup of tea. I served my time in the military. :) I think I'm more of a fan of the casual heirarchy, like most clubs and schools are run, where the pecking order is informal.

[OKenpo942]

Nothing at all wrong with this, but not my cup of tea. I served my time in the military. :) I think I'm more of a fan of the casual heirarchy, like most clubs and schools are run, where the pecking order is informal.

I prefer the informal as well. I was just playing devil's advocate to those who think it is silly or only serves the ego. It does have a purpose right or wrong.

I really like the way promotions are done at most BJJ outfits. Very informal. I know the way it was done while I trained BJJ. Everyone would be paired up and rolling, then all of a sudden, something would hit you or someone else in the back, or head, or whatever. You would turn to see what it was and see a new belt lying on the floor. Everyone would stop to congratulate you then go back to business as usual. Very cool. Basically, when you are ready, you get promoted. No test dates, etc. You just train & your skill speaks for itself.

Promotions happened so infrequently that it was never expected and always a special moment for the recipient of the new grade. Personally, I think this is a great way to do it. The emphasis is on the material and its application rather than on the rank itself.

James

[KempoGuy06]

To me, in all honesty, this topic is like religion. It just keeps going around and around and around. Ranks are good, ranks are bad. Tests are good, tests are bad. Paying to test is good...etc, etc, etc. We can all go back and forth and make all the analogies we want and we will still get nowhere.

The only truth, in my opinion that is, is whether or not the person can handle themselves. They could have no belt or one that blinks and flashes and plays a song for all i care but if they dont have the skill to handle whatever situation comes their way than it makes no difference.

But like the old saying going: opinions are like *******s...everybody has one

B

[Saki]

I think we might have taken this question or issue and gotten a little confused. There are belt ranks and then there is belt Stripes.
I will be the first to say that I am a bit more old fashion. Heck- I'd prefer just having white and black for belt color if a belt system is needed or wanted. The Belt color system seems to be good and works. It seems that the belt colors system solves a lot of the issues and problems.

BUT- the adding of stripes on the colored belts- is just to much to me. I have heard the arguement that "it helps me to know where they are" and this makes me think this instructor should maybe NOT be an instructor. I also have heard the "well, people need to have small victories to help they stay on path." OMG!!!! when I heard this- it almost made me laugh out loud as well as yell. What? so- an adult under rank needs to be rewarded every other week? If this doesn't water down your style.... We are adults- we should be able to go 'X' months before the next belt rank without adding 10 belt stripes with tape. ( I might be able to tolerate this with kids and I mean KIDS- once they get old enough to start understanding the value of hard work- then no more belt stripes.

I have seen schools that charge for test and ones that don't- sorta think that falls into the "contract" issue. I don't see a big issue for a small charge for the test (cover cost of new belt and other expenses)

Anyway- I still love martial arts and I invite and encourage people everyday to go visit a school and learn an art.

respectfully

[Monroe]

I didn't realize people paid to test. I hate tests (any and all kinds). Having to pay for it just solidifies that I'll skip tests and I have a wonderful excuse. Unless it's the difference between getting a driver's license, leaving the bunny hill and snowboardin on the black diamond or I get to do something more fun, I'm not going to voluntarily test for anything.

I think the belts are for those who feel a desire to succeed/accomplish. I don't see what's wrong with that. They'll probably push further ahead than me and enjoy that. People do what works for them.

[Cyriacus]

I didn't realize people paid to test. I hate tests (any and all kinds). Having to pay for it just solidifies that I'll skip tests and I have a wonderful excuse. Unless it's the difference between getting a driver's license, leaving the bunny hill and snowboardin on the black diamond or I get to do something more fun, I'm not going to voluntarily test for anything.

I think the belts are for those who feel a desire to succeed/accomplish. I don't see what's wrong with that. They'll probably push further ahead than me and enjoy that. People do what works for them.

Its a matter of where you Train.
In Karate for example, a White Belt wont be taught Yellow Belt Material.
So if you never Grade, youll never learn anything but White Belt Material at Low White Belt Standards.
Not all Places have you Pay for it. Just some.
And all the Tests are, is Training. Just like you normally would. Only with someone watching.

[Monroe]

Its a matter of where you Train.
In Karate for example, a White Belt wont be taught Yellow Belt Material.
So if you never Grade, youll never learn anything but White Belt Material at Low White Belt Standards.
Not all Places have you Pay for it. Just some.
And all the Tests are, is Training. Just like you normally would. Only with someone watching.

I was always an underachiever. I'll stick around and get pretty good at things I enjoy. Adrenalin is a good reward. Dorito's are pretty good. And when you get good enough at something that it just happens naturally. I'm willing to work towards that.

[jks9199]

Actually, it all depends on the school. Some karate schools or TKD or other arts segregate classes by rank but many don't. All my students generally train the same material but I expect different levels of understanding based on the student's skill level.

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