One of the central debates I see recurring among the MA community today is whether the MMA has moved the MA forward, backward, or is irrelevant.

I wanted to see what you thought, and hopefully why some of you believe as you do.

Forward, it has brought some much needed realism back into the martial arts. And while all systems do not fit the MMA mold, a lot of what is learnt from the ideas can still be useful knowledge. A lot of BS gets eliminated, and a emphasis on testing things in a non-static situation is a good thing.

As a TMA practitioner for a couple of decades+, I am going to say that it has both helped and hurt things, but that the same thing could be said about any martial arts system.

First the negative:

Some people get enamored with the pure fighting aspect of the martial arts, and ignore many wonderful things about the non-sparring parts of the systems. Also, some people look at full contact matches, and grow impatient when I tell them that we don't do full contact here at the dojo.

I'm more than happy to answer a student's question, as to why they need to learn the basics, learn the kata, etc. It's only natural for the students to ask questions, and this is almost always encouraged.

It's when I have to answer questions coming from a student who says "Why do I have to do these stupid kata? This is ********, that it's taking away from my fighting time."

I'm not going to pin the blame on the MMA, though, since this kind of individual would probably try to find a way to quit sooner, rather than later. In this case, it's not really a matter of the MMA being bad, but rather, someone interpreting it badly.

After all, it comes down to a personal decision of someone to do what they do. The bottle of Jack Daniels, for example, did not cause Chappaqudick!



Now on to the positive:

The popularity of MMA has brought in people to come visit the dojo to see what we're about, and from those people, I can actually enroll a fair number of them. Thus, the popularity of MMA has helpd us overcome one of the more difficult tasks, and that's to get the people in the dojo in the first place.


All in all? The positives far, far, outweigh the negatives. Thus, I would say that overall, it does help.

I would say it's mostly helped. I hang round my gym in uniform before and after classes, a few people have approached me asking about what we do, they generally say they were interested in MMA but aren't sure if that's what they want to do so are looking at everything available. These are mostly young men (20's and 30's) but also women all ages between 20 and 60.

The concept that the arts is mostly fighting does seem to be forward in the minds of the ones that mention MMA but the ones who just want fighting aren't going to stick around no matter how they found us.

What it seems to have brought, is an increased awareness of the arts as a whole. Not that they now see if for the first time or anything, it's more like there's an increased mind to think "oh there's a person in a white uniform let's go have a chat". If people suit TKD, Karate, Kung Foo, Aikido, Hapkido or anything else more, they are more likely to settle with that then MMA.

Any positive publicity is good in my eyes. If it brings one more student over, then it's positive publicity, if 1 student leaves... then I reckon they'll have dropped out anyway.

It may have made self defense a bit harder overall as a greater number of people (in particuular, those who like fighting but prefer not to spend time in a dojo/dojang building character) are familiarized with some easy-to-use effective fighting techniques and may even get some practice in with informal backyard emulation.

Raising the bar is always a good thing :)

i think it's hurt the martial arts community some by stunting our growth as human beings. the general attitude of most mma'ers (there are exceptions) is to develop the body almost exclusively. there's no emphasis on mental and spiritual growth, contribution to society and community, martial arts as a tool for evolution. that's a step back by 15-20 years for martial arts in america and i find it unfortunate and limiting.

at the same time, it has raised awareness in general. and since there's no such thing as bad publicity, anything that gets folks to want to train is a good thing.

finally, it has made the tma schools nicer places to train. that 23 year old hothead who kept hurting all his training partners and insulting the women. he's over at an mma school these days. the rest of us get to train with grownups now.

so i think it's a wash overall.

i should also add that the hothead i just mentioned is getting the training he wants in the first place. everybody wins.

IMHO, I think it has done both, but I lean towards saying its done more good. As Andrew pointed out, it brought the aliveness and resistance aspect more into the spotlight. It also brought the importance of grappling into the mix as well.

As far as the negatives go, I think that some people feel that it is the end all, be all of training and everything else is garbage.

IMHO, keeping an open mind is the way to go.

I believe both but with the majority of hurting, to many rules just like sport Karate or Olympic TKD. True it goes alot further but with that being said it has taken the Art out of Martial ARt and added the sport aspect just like there counter parts.

Hard to say because there is no real "Martial Arts Community" as a single entity. There are lots of smaller communities that loosely interact and inter-relate and the rise of MMA popularity has impacted differnt aspects of the martial arts world in different ways

Hard to say because there is no real "Martial Arts Community" as a single entity. There are lots of smaller communities that loosely interact and inter-relate and the rise of MMA popularity has impacted differnt aspects of the martial arts world in different ways

i'd disagree pretty strongly with that notion. there are different cliques and cabals and allegiances, but martial artists as a whole are impacted by MMA. just like they were when The Karate Kid came out. just like we were when ninjutsu became the next big fad in the 80s.

i think this forum is an example of how strong the community as a whole really is. i mean, seriously. if you're at a party where you don't know anybody who do you sit down and jaw with, the guy who's into macrame or the guy who's into martial arts -- regardless of which art he studies?

To be honest, regardless of what art the MMA players have trained in, I don't think it really reflects anything about the arts.

No relevance to me

i'd disagree pretty strongly with that notion. there are different cliques and cabals and allegiances, but martial artists as a whole are impacted by MMA. just like they were when The Karate Kid came out. just like we were when ninjutsu became the next big fad in the 80s.

i think this forum is an example of how strong the community as a whole really is. i mean, seriously. if you're at a party where you don't know anybody who do you sit down and jaw with, the guy who's into macrame or the guy who's into martial arts -- regardless of which art he studies?

Actually, I'd rather talk to the guy who does something I have not tried yet. You may learn something new. 99% of the time, the guy practicing martial arts is going to be a BS artist who I'd have no interest in. The exception would be a person I know with whom I can have a converstion and find out how everthing is going in life. Otherwise, I'd pass. Now, if he's a hockey fan we can have a long conversation.

Well. There is no such thing as bad publicity. On the other hand - I hate MMA for giving far too many people the opinion that MMA is the solution to reality based fighting.

Hard to say because there is no real "Martial Arts Community" as a single entity. There are lots of smaller communities that loosely interact and inter-relate and the rise of MMA popularity has impacted differnt aspects of the martial arts world in different ways

I'd have to agree with you. The martial arts scene here in Ireland is completely different from the one in America, therefore the way they've been affected is completely different. Here in Ireland, MMA has been an almost purely positive effect, the only negative being the ever present internet rivalries ;)

I'd have to agree with you. The martial arts scene here in Ireland is completely different from the one in America, therefore the way they've been affected is completely different. Here in Ireland, MMA has been an almost purely positive effect, the only negative being the ever present internet rivalries ;)

I have to agree with you! I think MMA in the States is also a different animal from what it is here.
Shotgun I take it you've been on the Cagewarriors forum then lol?

I have to agree with you! I think MMA in the States is also a different animal from what it is here.
Shotgun I take it you've been on the Cagewarriors forum then lol?

Heh no not yet, but Ive seen enough on the Irish boards forum. It gets very very silly :)
English scene seems pretty similar to the Irish one, but one of my "home-boys" had the dubious pleasure of informing me he found the American MMA scene to be most "wack".

he found the American MMA scene to be
most "wack".

It's not the American MMA scene, its the American scene in general :lol:

Heh no not yet, but Ive seen enough on the Irish boards forum. It gets very very silly :)
English scene seems pretty similar to the Irish one, but one of my "home-boys" had the dubious pleasure of informing me he found the American MMA scene to be most "wack".

I get the feeling—and this has been remarked on in other threads—that there's a kind of intense factional hostility in the US MA scene that isn't present in a lot of other Western countries (remember the infamous dojo/dojo punchups in the 1960s, which someone raised in one of the KMA threads a few weeks back—the whole narrative premise of The Karate Kid and any number of Walker, Texas Ranger episodes?). It occurred to me that maybe one reason for all that is that when Asian countries began exporting their MAs, via expatriate instructors trying to make a living and US servicemen returning home from posts in the Far East who had trained in local MAs, the rivalries between MA schools that were a feature of dojo/dojang culture were brought back, and reenacted in a sense on US soil. That may have injected into MA culture a kind of aggressive preoccupation with system purity, lineage, who betrayed who, and so on that isn't nearly as evident, from what Tez and others have suggested elsewhere, in the UK scene. The evolving MMA world would pick up on that... not that it doesn't happen elsewhere, but it seems to have the greatest intensity and toxicity hereabouts...

To be honest, regardless of what art the MMA players have trained in, I don't think it really reflects anything about the arts.
Exactly. You don't focus on one style, like USSD (Kenpo) or most other schools. I know many people just do MA today to be physically fit these days too though, which is seen in every school, but much more in MMA schools. I go to USSD, and the low ranked belts only care about being fit, but when you get to a high rank starting usually at green belt, they are serious about MA, and they don't do it to be fit- there's too much to learn and it's too serious. In MMA, they don't focus on challenging techniques (From what I've heard), so you could be a 4th degree black belt and not give a crap about MA, you just want to be fit.

In MMA, they don't focus on challenging techniques (From what I've heard), so you could be a 4th degree black belt and not give a crap about MA, you just want to be fit.

I'd love to know where you heard that. MMA tends to be gross-motor skill based than most MA, and the techniques are commonly drilled with resistant opponents and through free-sparring.
So while the techniques are themselves straightforward, the manner in which they are drilled is intensely challenging.
So no, its not just about the fitness ;)

Anything that gets people out of their normally sedentary ways and into a gym / dojo / dojang and actually training, becoming physically active (and hopefully learning something valuable) is a good thing.

Anything that elevates the standard or increases the expectation of what is being offered is a good thing.

TMA isn't for everyone, MMA isn't for everyone, the creation of options and an awareness that there are options is a good thing.

And for those of us that love TMA and MMA - it's a GREAT thing.

***

The only negative I see is the over-representation of the 'bad-boy' attitude in MMA, it gets old.

MMA has been very bad for martial arts in two aspects:

1. Your average MMA learns enough kicking, boxing, and grappling to get into a ring and fight. I've seen MMA fighters on TV, and for the most part, all they want to is box and grapple. The fighting is really not very good. In fact, I can only watch a typical Pride/K-1/UFC match for a few minutes before I get really bored. Aside from bad boxing and kicking, the ground fighting is essentially two guys waiting for each other to make a bad move.

2. Traditional MA is based on respect, manners, and listening to your Instructor. So what happens is people want to learn martial arts because they see MMA guys on TV or read about them. Then when they find out they actually to be patient, have respect for their teacher, and listen, they don't want to do it because the MMA guys don't do it. Why should you follow traditional MA etiquette and manners when these UFC guys get away with not doing it? Then, when you emphasize these points, they look at you like their offended they should even have to.

MMA has been very bad for martial arts in two aspects:

2. Traditional MA is based on respect, manners, and listening to your Instructor. So what happens is people want to learn martial arts because they see MMA guys on TV or read about them. Then when they find out they actually to be patient, have respect for their teacher, and listen, they don't want to do it because the MMA guys don't do it. Why should you follow traditional MA etiquette and manners when these UFC guys get away with not doing it? Then, when you emphasize these points, they look at you like their offended they should even have to.

What on earth makes you think there's no etiquette in MMA? Numerous individuals still bow upon entering the ring, or bow to the opponent. Fighters with a Muay Thai background commonly perform the rituals of their art prior to fight.
Fighters from more Western styles still shake hands or touch gloves prior to a fight, and after the fight will often show a great deal of respect to each other.
So, there is still a strong element of etiquette, manners, and respect in MMA. It just may take a different form than the one you espouse yourself. Perhaps if you were to explain it in that manner, students would be more receptive to it?

1. Your average MMA learns enough kicking, boxing, and grappling to get into a ring and fight.

If you want to play that card, then it is equally fair to say that most traditional martial artists simply learn a few kata, and learn the basic techniques required to point-spar.

Obviously, both statements are generalisations. Many MMA fighters are very competent martial artists, as are many TMA fighters.

2. Traditional MA is based on respect, manners, and listening to your Instructor.

I disagree. Traditional martial arts are based on the study of violence on a personal level. Respect, manners and listening to your superiors are the hallmarks of a well raised person, and are completely seperate things to martial arts. A person can be an excellent martial artist and still be rude, arrogant and over-bearing, while at the same time being well mannered, polite and respectful does not make one a good martial artist.

So what happens is people want to learn martial arts because they see MMA guys on TV or read about them. Then when they find out they actually to be patient, have respect for their teacher, and listen, they don't want to do it because the MMA guys don't do it. Why should you follow traditional MA etiquette and manners when these UFC guys get away with not doing it? Then, when you emphasize these points, they look at you like their offended they should even have to.

The problem here is they have enrolled in the wrong style of class. These people obviously would have been more at home in an actual MMA gym, or a boxing or wrestling gym than a TMA school.

The problem is not that these people are inferior, or that their views and opinions are wrong. Simply that they have gone looking in the wrong places to find what they want.

I think the MMA have been very good for the martial arts in general. Anything that causes people to question what they are doing is a good thing.

. Many MMA fighters are very competent martial artists, as are many TMA fighters.

That about covers it.

Some others raised a valid point why they dislike MMA as well:
As far as MMA fighters are concerned, their way is the ONLY way. To them, non MMA styles are absolutely useless and getting into the ring or cage is the only way to prove that your art is superior. This is fascism pure and simple, because to defend your art is to invite their wrath and contempt. I don't practice judo or karate, but I also respect your right to practice them and see their benefits. As far as MMA fighters are concerned, if you are not a MMA fighter, you're wasting your time.

And viewing fighting as what it's all about is very one dimensional. Real martial arts are much more than simply being able to fight. Because if fighting were all it's about, you wouldn't need the -Do arts just get into the ring or cage and go at it.

Some others raised a valid point why they dislike MMA as well:
As far as MMA fighters are concerned, their way is the ONLY way. To them, non MMA styles are absolutely useless and getting into the ring or cage is the only way to prove that your art is superior. This is fascism pure and simple, because to defend your art is to invite their wrath and contempt. I don't practice judo or karate, but I also respect your right to practice them and see their benefits. As far as MMA fighters are concerned, if you are not a MMA fighter, you're wasting your time.

Thats one of the reasons I like it.

I hasten to point out that over-bearing holier-than-thou MMA types are certainly no fun, and the resulting internet flame wars are largerly a waste of time.

However, the MMA stance of 'If you think it works, prove it' encourages everyone to ask themselves 'well, will what I do actually work when I need it?'. Obviously this doesn't mean you have to get in the octagon or the ring and try it out, but it does mean you should always question the efficacy of your techniques and training methods, which is something I think a lot of TMA people had stopped doing, and many still aren't doing.

And viewing fighting as what it's all about is very one dimensional. Real martial arts are much more than simply being able to fight. Because if fighting were all it's about, you wouldn't need the -Do arts just get into the ring or cage and go at it.

It's not just fighting. It's the study of violence. Manners and respect are nice, but they are something you should learn from your parents, not your MA instructor.

Some others raised a valid point why they dislike MMA as well:
As far as MMA fighters are concerned, their way is the ONLY way. To them, non MMA styles are absolutely useless and getting into the ring or cage is the only way to prove that your art is superior. This is fascism pure and simple, because to defend your art is to invite their wrath and contempt. I don't practice judo or karate, but I also respect your right to practice them and see their benefits. As far as MMA fighters are concerned, if you are not a MMA fighter, you're wasting your time.

And viewing fighting as what it's all about is very one dimensional. Real martial arts are much more than simply being able to fight. Because if fighting were all it's about, you wouldn't need the -Do arts just get into the ring or cage and go at it.

And viewing MMA fighters as if that is what we are all about is equally one dimensional is it not?

You seem to be making some pretty sweeping generalizations about MMA, and while it may apply to some it certainely does not apply to all. Either that or you should also accept that TKD is a shallow copy of karate, its practitioners do watered down versions of the Okinawan forms and there fighting is limited to bouncing around throwing kicks without any use of there arms or knowledge of grappling whatsoever.

See, we MMA folks can apply stereotypes too ;)

Actually, there is nothing in the WTF rules that states fighters cannot punch. However, the way the fights go makes it very difficult to do so most of them don't. There is a difference between not being allowed to punch (we are), and it being very difficult to based on how they fight. All things considered, there aren't that many rules. Certainly not that different from what others do. You can't kick to the groin, poke the eyes, bite, or sweep the legs in the name of safety. We're not trying to hurt each other.
And I've seen plenty of fighters get knocked out because they had their hands down.

I think you have completely missed the point of my post. It had nothing to do with rules, but if you want to go that way MMA has far fewer, it had to do with making sweeping generalizations about an entire style and its practitioners.

the MMA stance of 'If you think it works, prove it' encourages everyone to ask themselves 'well, will what I do actually work when I need it?'. Obviously this doesn't mean you have to get in the octagon or the ring and try it out, but it does mean you should always question the efficacy of your techniques and training methods, which is something I think a lot of TMA people had stopped doing, and many still aren't doing.

To me, this is the value of MMA for the MA community in general. We TMA's must ask, If that guy in the ring did that on the street, how would/could I counter or avoid? And if there's nothing legitimate in my toolbox now (doesn't mean it's not in the art, but maybe I just don't have the tool), how can I remedy that?

Some others raised a valid point why they dislike MMA as well:
As far as MMA fighters are concerned, their way is the ONLY way. To them, non MMA styles are absolutely useless and getting into the ring or cage is the only way to prove that your art is superior. This is fascism pure and simple, because to defend your art is to invite their wrath and contempt. I don't practice judo or karate, but I also respect your right to practice them and see their benefits. As far as MMA fighters are concerned, if you are not a MMA fighter, you're wasting your time.

And viewing fighting as what it's all about is very one dimensional. Real martial arts are much more than simply being able to fight. Because if fighting were all it's about, you wouldn't need the -Do arts just get into the ring or cage and go at it.

Wow. Godwins Law in action- As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Ok first off, how is facism? If you are still in a position where you can voice a complaint about it safely, then its clearly not facism. Were it facism the MMA police would even now be bursting down the door, dragging you from your bed and silencing you forever for your heinous internet crimes.
Now I would like you to note, the clear lack of balaclava clad men raiding your home. This in itself should tell, no its not really facism, pure and simple.

Second, how many MMA practioners have you actually talked to? You're attemtping to paint a picture of a grim conspiracy of MMA fighters, who all train the exact same way, and dismiss anything different.
Thats not just innacurate, its actually completely misunderstanding MMA.
There is no one MMA style. It is a composite, made up other styles. That particular make up varies wildy depending on the club. In some clubs its a mixture of Muay Thai, Wrestling and Brazilian Jujitsu. In mine, its a mix of Kyokushin Karate, Boxing, Judo and Submission Grappling.
So to say MMA dismisses other styles is ludricous, when the very nature of MMA is to mix styles, and pressure test your styles against others.

Third, real martial arts? You just prior gave out about how MMA doesn't consider other stuff real, yet here you are doing the exact same thing, dismissing it as not a "real" martial art, because it doesn't follow your way of doing things. Tad hypocritical don't you think?
You learn discipline in MMA. You learn strength and control in MMA. You learn respect in MMA. You learn dedication in MMA.
But these are things you learn from training, not from talking about them.
And thats the key thing here, these are all qualities present in MMA, but we don't feel any need to make a big deal out of them the way others might, since they're so obvious a part of what we do.

I believe it has certainly hurt the Martial Arts Community. Now, all martial arts used in self defence are being measured by how their practitioners perform in the octagon.

I think that the octagon fighters are great and it takes a certain type of person to get in there. However, comparing a ring-style competition to an actual self-defense scenario is apples to oranges.

Wow. Godwins Law in action- As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Ok first off, how is facism? If you are still in a position where you can voice a complaint about it safely, then its clearly not facism. Were it facism the MMA police would even now be bursting down the door, dragging you from your bed and silencing you forever for your heinous internet crimes.
Now I would like you to note, the clear lack of balaclava clad men raiding your home. This in itself should tell, no its not really facism, pure and simple.

Second, how many MMA practioners have you actually talked to? You're attemtping to paint a picture of a grim conspiracy of MMA fighters, who all train the exact same way, and dismiss anything different.
Thats not just innacurate, its actually completely misunderstanding MMA.
There is no one MMA style. It is a composite, made up other styles. That particular make up varies wildy depending on the club. In some clubs its a mixture of Muay Thai, Wrestling and Brazilian Jujitsu. In mine, its a mix of Kyokushin Karate, Boxing, Judo and Submission Grappling.
So to say MMA dismisses other styles is ludricous, when the very nature of MMA is to mix styles, and pressure test your styles against others.

Third, real martial arts? You just prior gave out about how MMA doesn't consider other stuff real, yet here you are doing the exact same thing, dismissing it as not a "real" martial art, because it doesn't follow your way of doing things. Tad hypocritical don't you think?
You learn discipline in MMA. You learn strength and control in MMA. You learn respect in MMA. You learn dedication in MMA.
But these are things you learn from training, not from talking about them.
And thats the key thing here, these are all qualities present in MMA, but we don't feel any need to make a big deal out of them the way others might, since they're so obvious a part of what we do.

I agree with you. Leave the Nazis and Fascism out of a friendly discussion.

I believe it has certainly hurt the Martial Arts Community. Now, all martial arts used in self defence are being measured by how their practitioners perform in the octagon.

I think that the octagon fighters are great and it takes a certain type of person to get in there. However, comparing a ring-style competition to an actual self-defense scenario is apples to oranges.

Heh, actually they're being measured by your ability to perform them regularly against a resisting opponent. That doesn't mean getting in the ring, it means pressure testing. After all, if you can't perform the techniques against a resisting opponent in a controlled environment, what makes you think you could perform them in an uncontrolled one?
Thats an open question, not aimed at you in specific.

It's not really relevant to me.

Heh, actually they're being measured by your ability to perform them regularly against a resisting opponent. That doesn't mean getting in the ring, it means pressure testing. After all, if you can't perform the techniques against a resisting opponent in a controlled environment, what makes you think you could perform them in an uncontrolled one?

As I said earlier, as a TMA guy this is the key thing that MMA provides. I don't feel the need to test my strategy and techniques in any MMA setting, but I do want to know they have a chance of working against a resisting, unpredictable opponent. Doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me :ultracool. Just MHO of what's good for myself and my students.

While I've seen some "MMA" guys who were jerks, I've seen many TMA's that were as well. It simply goes with the territory. Most of the people I've met that study what everyone is calling 'Mixed Martial Arts', have been great guys. One locally has asked via a friend about some help in the striking arena (as that's my thing) and I've found him to be extremely respectful, humble and an all around great guy. He came from a wrestling background (shocking I know hehe).

I think everyone has said it a few times now though, broad generalizations are lame. It's a kind of prejudice against people of a certain 'something' be that an art, color, language or what have you. And while I DO put violent criminals into one large group, that's my own perhaps... shortcoming.

I've seen the arts in general increase in visibility and public awareness, as well as public understanding, greatly over the last few decades. I think the UFC/K1/IFL/Pride/WCL etc... those are simply showing another aspect of them in a form that people accept. Boxing has been popular for millennia, this is just a few variations of a very old theme.

So for me? I think it has helped a great deal, granted there are few tools in the shed, but most seem to be good guys/gals from what I've personally met.

Anyone who refuses to see how MMA has helped TMA's shed their recent complacency (as a whole - I'm sure your TMA never got complacent ;) ) and provide a much needed spark to get other arts to re-evaluate some of their practices, is in denial.

Do I believe that MMA's are the best? At what? No I don't.

Do I believe that MMa's have created division and controversy? Yes.

Do I believe that some people on both sides of the argument are morons and egomaniacs? Yes.

Do I believe that MMa's have hurt TMA's? No - not unless there was already something seriously wrong with a particular school.

It's cyclical (we TMa practitioners should be familiar with this concept, shouldn't we?) TMA's were at first thought esoteric and mystical, then Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris (and Bill Wallace, etc etc etc) showed us how they could really kick butt for real - suddenly it was combat that counted. We were most recently back into the mindset of "Learn the technique = kick ass". The philosophy had once again usurped the practical. MMA's showed us just how important live training and physical fitness was to a successful practitioner of sport. This has caught on in the mainstream and people are once again thinking greatness is determined by win / loss records. I have always believed that the truth was in the middle.

I think we can all admit that if you are in great shape, you have a better chance of surviving a violent encounter - as a whole. Yeah sure, the grand master of 65 years old may be able to kick but on a very fit 20 year old with basic skills, but that fit 20 year old will beat the other 20 year old who watches movies when he should be sparing. And when those two 20 year olds are 65, the one who stayed fit will be a master, the other one won't.

JMHO.

I think Tradrockrat has made some great points. My own take on it is, there are MMAists who pursue an aggressive and negative agenda when they talk about TMAs, but that's not the fault of MMA, or the MMA community per se. There are aggressive and negative individuals all over the map, and advocates of one TMA against another can be just as arrogantly dismissive as any MMA fan's wholesale putdowns of the TMAs as a group. But the existence of the MMA scene has thrown into relief a problem that the TMAs have been saddled with for quite a while, and that can only be a good thing.

What I'm getting at is that the TMAs were created in one cultural/historical context and have been transplanted to a radically different one, and in effect have had to reinvent themselves on North American and European soil, something which I don't think has been at all easy.

There have been a lot of comments on other threads about the differences in the levels of, on the one hand, everyday danger and vulnerbility that led to the original creation of these unromaniticized, brutal, all-business fighting systems in Asian societies, and on the other hand, their spread to prosperous, largely middle-class, privileged Western clienteles; the upshot is, these arts just do not have the same essential relevance to survival here, now that they did there, then. Increasingly, the basis for TMAs in the West has become sport competition, part of the larger entertainment economy, which something we do big-time. So you have Olympic TKD and sport karate (the two are almost indistinguishable) as the defaults for how these TMAs are presented to their First World clientele. And as people have noted, on MT and elsewhere, over and over, these martial sport developments are governed by scoring systems which are highly artificial and specialized, leading to serious changes—my own description would be `distortions'—in technical content.

What the MMA competitions have done is shove in the face of these TMA contests the spectacle of relatively open-ended fighting with minimum emphasis on artificial style and acrobatic glitz. From my own experience watching WTF-style TKD on the one hand, and UFC-style fighting on the other, I'd have to say that the latter looks way more unrestricted and hard-edged than the former. My own feeling is that Matsumura's bloody, violent street fights in 19th c. Shuri alleys were way nastier than what we've seen on the UFC circuit, but the two have much more in common than either has with modern sport karate competition. So this leaves karate in its Okinawan, Japanese and Korean variants with a big problem: what are they going to be in the 21st century? Are they going to continue to go more and more in the direction of artificial, stylized competition, whose artificiality becomes more and more highlighted by comparison with MMA competition? That's one possibility. But another is that the TMAs will recover their original purpose as combat arts, designed to use tried-and-true, completely unconstrained techniques to damage a violent, untrained but aggressive attacker to the point where he has to leave the fight no matter how bad his original intentions were—return, in effect, to the karate that Matsumura developed and taught, and its subsequent offshoots. Some practitioners will go with the first possibility and some with the second, but the existence of MMA-style competitions helps force TMA practitioners to face the problem of deciding whether they want their art to take the form of a clearly unrealistic arena sport, on the one hand, or... something else, on the other. To me this is a good outcome....

The only effects I see that MMA has had on TMA are

It gives a whole lot of people reason to discuss, argue fight over what is better Ad nauseam and it always comes down to “yes it is” “no its not” (repeat) :deadhorse

And it does point out that many in TMA no longer train as hard as they use to. Face it guys the MMA folks train very hard. This does not however prove anything is more effective that another. If this were the case then in the winter snow shoveling would by far be a better year round exercise than swimming because you can’t swim in winter. This is of course talking about exercising outside and in places that get snow in the winter.

If a TMA person trains like they should they are very effective. If an MMA person trains as the majority does then they are very effective. And as far as what works on the street, I hope neither ever has to find out.

It gives a whole lot of people reason to discuss, argue fight over what is better Ad nauseam and it always comes down to “yes it is” “no its not” (repeat) :deadhorse


Nah, that was getting done long before MMA came into the spotlight.

"Shotokan is watered down Okinawan Karate"

"Karate lacks the depth of Kung Fu"

"TKD is a butchered up copy of Shotokan"

Remember those?

Or how about the fun that followed Bruce Lee? Crosstraining vs not? Or JKD concepts vs Original JKD?

Boxing vs Karate was a fun one as well.

And of course Judo vs Karate.

Kendo vs Olympic Fencing.

Judo vs Jujitsu.

These fights are not a reult of MMA, they're a result of people being people.

OK

It gives a whole lot of people a new reason to discuss, argue fight over what is better Ad nauseam and it always comes down to “yes it is” “no its not” (repeat) :deadhorse

OK

It gives a whole lot of people a new reason to discuss, argue fight over what is better Ad nauseam and it always comes down to “yes it is” “no its not” (repeat) :deadhorse

And its almost as fun as talking about Ashida Kim! :p

MMA has brought more visibility to martial arts period, and I certainly think that making Martial Arts as a whole more visible is a good thing. The bad thing is the combination of noobs who swear by it without even having taken the time to truly explore the wider world of the martial arts and the Taekwondo Mcdojangs that are starting to advertise themselves as being MMA schools or having MMA programs when they are little more than korean footsy parlors with crappling (crappy grappling, not the good stuff) thrown in for good measure. Of course, mcdojangs do that with reality based self defense too, so this is no surprise. I wouldn't want to learn that roundhouse gun disarm, neither would I want anyone else to learn it and have false confidence/stupidity from it. The martial arts can be so absurd at times :banghead:.

that 23 year old hothead who kept hurting all his training partners and insulting the women. he's over at an mma school these days.

Do you guys think there is people like that at the MMA schools? I was thinking of going to one of the MMA schools for some more realistic training, but not if the guys there are aggressive, drug using, and are the type that show zero sportsmanship.

Do you think the people at the MMA schools would train bad people? If I were an instructor I wouldn't ever want to train someone who would use what he learned in my class for something bad.

Do you guys think there is people like that at the MMA schools? I was thinking of going to one of the MMA schools for some more realistic training, but not if the guys there are aggressive, drug using, and are the type that show zero sportsmanship.

Do you think the people at the MMA schools would train bad people? If I were an instructor I wouldn't ever want to train someone who would use what he learned in my class for something bad.

No.

Things like this depend on the instructor(s) more then the school. There are good and bad people in more traditional arts, RBSD systems, Boxing, Muay thai, MMA, you name it.

If you wanted a comparison I'd say MMA is more like a football team or a hockey team, where traditional arts are more like a academic class. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think as a generalization it will work.

There will be different demographics, but not in the sense of one being bad and the other good. Both can be either, but they do it in different ways.

Do you guys think there is people like that at the MMA schools? I was thinking of going to one of the MMA schools for some more realistic training, but not if the guys there are aggressive, drug using, and are the type that show zero sportsmanship.

Do you think the people at the MMA schools would train bad people? If I were an instructor I wouldn't ever want to train someone who would use what he learned in my class for something bad.

The 23 year old who beats up on people and insults women would not be welcome at any MMA club/class I know. He would be shown the door PDQ.
Training in an MMA class is surprisingly not much different from training in a TMA class. It may seem more informal but good manners and care for others is very much the order of the day. Techniques are practised only to the point where you feel the lock/choke whatever coming on never to the point of pain. MMAers don't feel they have to prove in a class how tough they are. It may even surprise you to know that there are women training too lol.
MMA classes teach MMA here rarely do they teach SD, that's a different class so if you want to learn to defend yourself go somewhere that does specifically SD. MMA classes very rarely aggressive, they are intense and hard working. We don't fight in class, we train and spar. The sportsmanship is of a very high level in the class as it is on the fights themselves. They may be trying to knock each others block off in the ring/cage but afterwards they are showing each other moves they've done!
Most fighters I know over here come from a TMA background, I knew at least four who are TKD blackbelts (Rosi Sexton who fights in Bodog is one), one I know, Sami Berik comes from a CMA background.
As with all martial arts, there are good schools and bad, good instructors and bad , good students and bad students. The art they practice doesn't make them that way, they do so don't blame MMA or TMA, it's the way of the world.

No.

Things like this depend on the instructor(s) more then the school. There are good and bad people in more traditional arts, RBSD systems, Boxing, Muay thai, MMA, you name it.

If you wanted a comparison I'd say MMA is more like a football team or a hockey team, where traditional arts are more like a academic class. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think as a generalization it will work.

There will be different demographics, but not in the sense of one being bad and the other good. Both can be either, but they do it in different ways.

Nicely put Andrew! I have met some great friends through BJJ and MMA training. Great people and true friends. I have also met a few jerks but no more than where I have trained in any other system. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

The 23 year old who beats up on people and insults women would not be welcome at any MMA club/class I know. He would be shown the door PDQ.
Training in an MMA class is surprisingly not much different from training in a TMA class. It may seem more informal but good manners and care for others is very much the order of the day. Techniques are practised only to the point where you feel the lock/choke whatever coming on never to the point of pain. MMAers don't feel they have to prove in a class how tough they are. It may even surprise you to know that there are women training too lol.
MMA classes teach MMA here rarely do they teach SD, that's a different class so if you want to learn to defend yourself go somewhere that does specifically SD. MMA classes very rarely aggressive, they are intense and hard working. We don't fight in class, we train and spar. The sportsmanship is of a very high level in the class as it is on the fights themselves. They may be trying to knock each others block off in the ring/cage but afterwards they are showing each other moves they've done!
Most fighters I know over here come from a TMA background, I knew at least four who are TKD blackbelts (Rosi Sexton who fights in Bodog is one), one I know, Sami Berik comes from a CMA background.
As with all martial arts, there are good schools and bad, good instructors and bad , good students and bad students. The art they practice doesn't make them that way, they do so don't blame MMA or TMA, it's the way of the world.

Exactly, alot of mma people may be more intimidating due to what people read about mma on the web so on. The guys can sometimes get a little cocky, but its no different than in traditional schools. One benefit of MMA schools IMO is that the training can is serious, and there isn't many there that are halfassing it like you find at those wonderful mcdojos that have so degraded tma.

A lot of the internet loudmouths don't actually train in anything, they just are Ultimate Fighter fans, which is a step below WWE fans. Some might start, but few people with that attitude last long in any class.

Others it is a case of "Internet annonymity + Otherwise normal person = Complete jackass"

But in order to safely train a contact sport you have to check your ego at the door, otherwise people get hurt. Anyone that can't do that won't last in a class.

Thugs come in all shapes and sizes, and can be found at a TMA or MMA school, depending on what the owner decides to accept.

I've known certain TMA schools that had a legitimate lineage back to the founder of their art, that didn't encourage sportsmanship or good behavior, and it was no surprise that most of the community thought of them as breeding grounds for thugs.

And yes, there are going to be some MMA schools out there that do the same thing. It just comes down to who's running the show, and what they decide to tolerate.

Most martial arts schools, whether they are TMA or MMA, aren't going to tolerate thuggery.

A lot of the internet loudmouths don't actually train in anything, they just are Ultimate Fighter fans, which is a step below WWE fans. Some might start, but few people with that attitude last long in any class.

Yup that is about it.

I have talked to online and in person quite a few MMA guys and I have the greatest respect for there dedication and attitude. It reminds me of TMA of the old in the old days actually

Thugs come in all shapes and sizes, and can be found at a TMA or MMA school, depending on what the owner decides to accept.

Very VERY true

When you think about the historical ties of each of the Martial Arts out there, and how the art was born into being, you can kind of see where I'm going with what I'm about to say. In a not so strange way, many of the martial arts we've come to know have similarities with one another, some in techniques as simple as the common round house kick or a simple leg sweep. When you think about it, a martial art is a living breathing creation that expands and grows over time, even some of the more traditional arts have adapted techniques not necessarily from their own cultural heritage. As controversial as this may sound, I can't help but wonder if every art in existence today isn't more or less an MMA art. Sure some arts cling to traditional training, but I don't think that many of them can deny either being either a branch of, or closely related to another form of martial art.

I don't know how many of you folks have ever really watched and studied the "Human Weapon" series that's currently being aired, but in just about every episode I see something that closely resembles a technique from another style. Even in studying a few different styles I've seen things that are a little too similar to be mere coincidence. I think the MMA popularity promotes open minds and is actually helping the entire MA and MMA community to grow. I won't deny that while I frown upon the MMA in general due to the brutality it exhibits, I do watch matches occasionally and enjoy seeing some of the techniques being used. To be really honest, its the schools that should probably be asked this question instead of the individuals, many schools teach self defense not how to pummel someone into paste in an octagon arena, so if anyone is offended or finds it to be unacceptable it would be the schools.

If you wanted a comparison I'd say MMA is more like a football team or a hockey team, where traditional arts are more like a academic class. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think as a generalization it will work.

There will be different demographics, but not in the sense of one being bad and the other good. Both can be either, but they do it in different ways.

I like this comparison. Of course, some academic classes have labs/fieldwork/clinicals, where you are required to demonstrate your knowledge. There are arts that are like this, too, that up the ante so to speak, with harder contact & pressure testing.

I'm hard pressed to say anything that hasn't already been said. MMA has done some good things for martial arts in general. It's increased the popularity of martial arts, certainly, or at least a few of them. It's also brought the import of contact and ground fighting back to the game TMA-ers. However, many folks have left perfectly good arts after watching a BJJ fighter submit someone, when a little basic ground training and takedown defenses added to their current art would have served them better.
Many now think that MMA represents reality when it is in all actuality a very sterile environment. Fight shorts, a clean floor that's softer than hardwood or concrete, and a completely one-on-one fight that you see coming, with no chance of friends or weapons coming into it.
(With this in mind, Pro Wrestling is more realistic!!!)
MMA is as far from reality as many non- or light contact TMAs, it's just at the other end of the spectrum. A happy medium is necessary.

I don't think its hurt anything, but I do liken the MMA "phenomenon" to the song "Son of A Plunder" by Disturbed.

I voted no relevance to me. The clubs I train at (a traditional Wado school and a more modern Ju Jutsu place) probably wouldn`t be doing anything different if there were no UFC and I don`t really know anyone that is in the arts because of MMA popularity. Never really watched a fight myself for that matter.

I voted no relevance to me. The clubs I train at (a traditional Wado school and a more modern Ju Jutsu place) probably wouldn`t be doing anything different if there were no UFC and I don`t really know anyone that is in the arts because of MMA popularity. Never really watched a fight myself for that matter.

YOU'VE NEVER SEEN MMA!?! Where do you live, Norway??? :wink2:

YOU'VE NEVER SEEN MMA!?! Where do you live, Norway??? :wink2:

Yeah, and beware or I`ll smite you with the might of Thor!
Actually I got much better things to do with my time.

Yeah, and beware or I`ll smite you with the might of Thor!
Actually I got much better things to do with my time.

Awww, come on, I'm worth the time to smite. Really.:tantrum:

Awww, come on, I'm worth the time to smite. Really.:tantrum:

Smiting is good. I`ll bring my warhammer along next time I am in the neighborhood. http://www.vogelforen.de/images/smilies/hammer.gif
I was just thinking MMA shows are not worth my time to watch when I can work, train, be with my girl or sleep instead.

Smiting is good. I`ll bring my warhammer along next time I am in the neighborhood. http://www.vogelforen.de/images/smilies/hammer.gif
I was just thinking MMA shows are not worth my time to watch when I can work, train, be with my girl or sleep instead.

Oh. Well, in that case, you're pretty right on.

I think their ego's are usually very large like a professional boxer or any other prize fighters, and things have hurt the perception of the martial arts more then helped... They are prize fighters, and a prize fight is about money and entertainment and not survival.. so I would say hurt it...

I don't see it as a martial art any more than professional wrestling can be said to be a martial art...

I think their ego's are usually very large like a professional boxer or any other prize fighters, and things have hurt the perception of the martial arts more then helped... They are prize fighters, and a prize fight is about money and entertainment and not survival.. so I would say hurt it...

How many MMA fighters do you know? I know most of them in the UK and one from the States and I can put my hand on my heart and say very very few have egos let alone very large ones. Many fighters fight semi pro or amateur so don't get paid. There are very healthy club leagues where again no one gets paid. I would suggest you are basing your views on watching the UFC which has very little to do with grassroots MMA.
As for it not being a martial art, come train with us and see for yourself instead of making sweeping statements that sound condescending and snobbish.

All I know is that every time a new Steven Seagal movie hits DVD, it's bad for Aikido dojos because you get a new influx of ponytails.

Some people just want to fight...even in TMA we discuss the "real world possibilities" of certain techniques. I can't fault them for that. It's who they are.

How many MMA fighters do you know? I know most of them in the UK and one from the States and I can put my hand on my heart and say very very few have egos let alone very large ones. Many fighters fight semi pro or amateur so don't get paid. There are very healthy club leagues where again no one gets paid. I would suggest you are basing your views on watching the UFC which has very little to do with grassroots MMA.
As for it not being a martial art, come train with us and see for yourself instead of making sweeping statements that sound condescending and snobbish.

I have to say based on the few real MMA people I have had a chance to talk with I agree with you.

Also I believe that many MMA people train incredibly hard much the way TMA did in the old days.

I think their ego's are usually very large like a professional boxer or any other prize fighters, and things have hurt the perception of the martial arts more then helped... They are prize fighters, and a prize fight is about money and entertainment and not survival.. so I would say hurt it...
I have to respectfully disagree with you. I train at a gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA as well as traditional MA's. The whole "prize fighter" mentality of the large ego and the assumption that it is all "about money and entertainment" is rather dismissive of men (and women) who train very diligently, sincerely and are extremely dedicated.

The fact is, most people who train MMA will never fight in a large event and even if they do it is definitely not about the money because even at the higher levels the payouts are small unless you are one of the few Randy Coutures or Chuck Liddells.

Of course there are fighters with large egos. I think anytime you have any high level athlete who has dedicated their life to a sport and is confident in their ability they will be accused of having "ego". The guys that I have trained with that have fought in the UFC, IFL, and KOTC are the most helpful, accomodating guys who are sincerely interested in making the sport grow. They do that through training others, seminars and making sure even the newest noob that walks through the door is given the opportunity to train without being harmed and encouraged even though they may never want to be a UFC fighter.

I think people who see MMA as harming the public perception of Martial Arts in general are people who don't really know what MMA is or have no experience with the training and methodology behind it. They are all too eager to condemn is as thuggery and "street-fighting" without taking into account the countless hours these competitors put into studying all ranges of combat.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I train at a gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA as well as traditional MA's. The whole "prize fighter" mentality of the large ego and the assumption that it is all "about money and entertainment" is rather dismissive of men (and women) who train very diligently, sincerely and are extremely dedicated.

The fact is, most people who train MMA will never fight in a large event and even if they do it is definitely not about the money because even at the higher levels the payouts are small unless you are one of the few Randy Coutures or Chuck Liddells.

Of course there are fighters with large egos. I think anytime you have any high level athlete who has dedicated their life to a sport and is confident in their ability they will be accused of having "ego". The guys that I have trained with that have fought in the UFC, IFL, and KOTC are the most helpful, accomodating guys who are sincerely interested in making the sport grow. They do that through training others, seminars and making sure even the newest noob that walks through the door is given the opportunity to train without being harmed and encouraged even though they may never want to be a UFC fighter.

I think people who see MMA as harming the public perception of Martial Arts in general are people who don't really know what MMA is or have no experience with the training and methodology behind it. They are all too eager to condemn is as thuggery and "street-fighting" without taking into account the countless hours these competitors put into studying all ranges of combat.

could be, all I can say is the few I have personally met who do cage fights and train in MMA in my aria have had large egos .. that is not a huge number and so perhaps I have just had the misfortune to meet ones that were taught the wrong attitude or just had that kind of ego before and kept it.

could be, all I can say is the few I have personally met who do cage fights and train in MMA in my aria have had large egos .. that is not a huge number and so perhaps I have just had the misfortune to meet ones that were taught the wrong attitude or just had that kind of ego before and kept it.

I think all and any of the martial arts can attract the person who has an inflated ego and wants boasting/bullying rights over others. One thing I've found is that anyone who says they are a 'cagefighter' very likely isn't as the genuine article will say they are a fighter or they fight MMA. Again as with all martial arts there are going to be the McDojos and the people who instil the wrong attitude. I do hope though you get to meet some of the 'good guys'.

I think all and any of the martial arts can attract the person who has an inflated ego and wants boasting/bullying rights over others. One thing I've found is that anyone who says they are a 'cagefighter' very likely isn't as the genuine article will say they are a fighter or they fight MMA. Again as with all martial arts there are going to be the McDojos and the people who instil the wrong attitude. I do hope though you get to meet some of the 'good guys'.I have come to believe Tez3, among other posters of similar opinion, is right. I admittedly used to think MMA fighters were all rude and arrogant. But I recently have interacted with two different MMA training studios in the area, which just happen to be back to back on the same lot. One fits the ugly stereotype :whip: but the other, which is also growing like crazy--I've sent some of my students there who realize they don't want to do TMA--is run by some of the most experienced, humble, respectful fight veterans I've met. So of course, all their fighters exhibit the same attitudes. :asian: ;)