I can't find my "Infinite Insights" book at the moment. Anyone have the list of titles that go with Rank at the black levels?

Thanx.

:uhoh:

I dug out my infinite Insights volumes and blew the dust off of them. So that I can help you out.

Kenpo Black Belt Titles are as follows:

JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.

Hope this helps.

d

Thanx.:D

Canadian ranking system

1st black.........Wiener dog

2nd black....... Hot dog

3rd black....... Horn dog

4th black...... Big dawg

5th black...... 3 legged dog



Big love from the west Coast
Brian - mean dog- clougherty

I have a joke for you.

A hillbilly was sitting naked on his porch whittling with a dull knife when it slipped and cut off his penis.

The penis looked up at him and said, "Man, I know we've had some fist fights but I never thought you'd pull a knife on me."

:rofl:

If you think about it, these books are close to at least 11 years old. They're still an ok read, although a bit "wordy," but what changes do you think would have been made to the system by now?

I myself think they would have gone to the 10/16/20 technique bel system. I also think that there would be a bigger emphasis on nerve strikes within the techniques, (BUT NOT TO THE EXCEPTION OF PLACING ALL THE IMPORTANCE ON THEM) more joint locks and grappling, and a greater emphasis on knife and stickwork.

Any thoughts?
:confused:

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.


I must say, this reads like puffery. Was it really necessary for someone to create a new title for each and every one of the ten ranks? I think I'd rather be a Senior Professor than an Associate Master of the Arts, from the sound of it. I really don't mean to insult anyone's art, but it seems so self-important to generate this list of titles that is so extensive, so patterned, and so unconnected to the ranks that they are difficult to remember.

No more puffy than any other art. There are titles and crap all over the place. Guru, Shihan, Sensei, Sifu, Punong Guru, Professor, Datu.

I think they maybe sound odd to you because you don't hear them regularily. For me, the arnis titles sound funny.

Other than that you have to remember that Parker wanted to make the art more "American" because that is where he was and wanted it to be. That is why the new titles where created.

The curriculum of Kenpo is very patterned and extensive, almost military like.
:D

Originally posted by GouRonin
No more puffy than any other art. There are titles and crap all over the place. Guru, Shihan, Sensei, Sifu, Punong Guru, Professor, Datu.

I think they maybe sound odd to you because you don't hear them regularily. For me, the arnis titles sound funny.


Perhaps there is some of that, but I am not aware of another art that has a separate title for each and every one of the ten degrees of black belt. I imagine there are others; I just can't name one. Also, bear in mind that some of the titles you cite--shihan, datu--are not given automatically with a promotion to every person but rather as a separate honor to some.


Other than that you have to remember that Parker wanted to make the art more "American" because that is where he was and wanted it to be. That is why the new titles where created.


Yes, I can understand that. It's hard making a new tradition. This one seems especially forced. Are these titles often used, say in introducing a person or when listing their name?

They are really only formal titles. Most of the people who have them prefer "Mr." or "Mrs" etc because those are the titles we use in our society. In fact most American Kenpo schools will not use the word "Sensei" or Sifu" for the most part as Parker wanted to get away from the asian use of them and go with what we as a society use.

Again, he called it "American Kenpo" for this reason. One thing about them that I do like is that he made 1st black a Junior instructor. This sort of de-mystified the idea of a Black belt being all powerful. he really did a lot of work de-mystifying the arts and trying to make them into the science they are.

:asian:

At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere. This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ass-kicking ruffians.

Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect. Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.

It was all part of elevating ass kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.

Originally posted by vincefuess
At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere.

I wasn't fully aware of this, though it sounds somewhat familiar. This makes a bit more sense, then.


Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect. Look at the old pics from the late 60s

Yes, I can picture them--I do remember seeing those pictures.

In Infinite Insights (whichever volume the rank titles are listed), SGM Parker explains his reasoning in assigning these titles to the various ranks. I gave you my "nutshell version". SGM Parker was very keen on higher education, he was quite a mover and shaker at Brigham Young University when he was there! His wife tells of those days in her book "Memories of Ed Parker".

Titles are only a sign of respect if they are said with heart felt sincerity. If you say the title to someone it is respectful, if you insist on the title it is pompous.

Most of the time we callthe person Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. with their last name. That is respectful as well. Some people put too much stock into titles, it is a waste of breath for some.

When I teach I am Mr. Broad, I don't care who it is on my floor, during that time that is my name. When I am off the floor, I am Rob. I have been called many other names, but lets just stick with Rob.

Yes the whore lives

More people call me "Gou" now than my real name. Soon my real name will be forgotten. LOL!

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
I dug out my infinite Insights volumes and blew the dust off of them. So that I can help you out.

Kenpo Black Belt Titles are as follows:

JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.

Hope this helps.

d I would just like to know if this title ranking is universal among the majority of the American Kenpo Schools because Master Tatum gives the 3rd Dan the Senior Title And 4th Dan the Head Instructor Title. This could be a misprint? The 10th Dan has no title. It just states that " The rank is so respected by peers and students that the persons word affects the course of the art'. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Actually the titles have change alot over the years, back in the late 60's and early 70's 3rd degree black belts were called Masters.

Proffesor has always been above Master. Many people also call the following.
8th: Associate Master of the Arts,
9th: Master of the Arts,
10th: Grand Master of the Arts,
and Senior Grand Master of the Arts reserved only for the founder of a system.

The Infinite Insights Into Kenpo were all written at least 10 years before they were published, so much of the information contained in them is also dated.

In Hawaii professor is the highest title. It means you are the founder or head of your system/orginization

Oh You Whooooo its Gou.......:asian:

What are the conventions for the use of GM and SGM (which I understand means either Supreme or SeniorGrandmaster) in kenpo? Are they for 10th degrees only as Not Important suggests?

No, Not Important is a little off in his/her information. As listed in the Infinite Insights Book 2 page 10, the correct Black Belt titles are as follows........

1st Degree Black = Junior Instructor
2nd Degree Black = Associate Instructor
3ed Degree Black = Head Instructor
4th Degree Black = Senior Instructor
5th Degree Black = Associate Professor
6th Degree Black = Professor
7th Degree Black = Senior Professor
8th Degree Black = Associate Master
9th Degree Black = Master
10th Degree Black = Senior Master

GrandMaster and Senior GrandMaster are not mentioned.

After Mr. Parker died many of the loyal higest ranking Black Belts started referring to Mr. Parker as the "Senior" Grand Master. This was done out of respect to maintain Edmund K. Parker's position in proper perspective in relation to HIS art (American Kenpo) since several of his top Black Belts moved on to become Founders, 10th Degrees & Grandmasters of thier own Ed Parker Kenpo Systems. The fitting title spread throughout the world and stuck.



:asian:

I find it interesting how when Mr. Parker died a lot of the high ranking black belts said there would never be another 10th degree as that was Mr. Parker's only. Yet here we are 10 years later and you need all of your limbs to count the number of 10th degrees on. Just currious how others feel.

:asian:

Chuck

Many left and did their own thing while Mr. Parker was alive, so it is no surprise that this happened, besides, if you check history, every major martial arts organization has had splits from its top people either prior to the main leader passing or soon there after.

In a perfect world it sure would be nice to have a higher degree of order and unity. I guess we will just have to accept the State as it is today and do as we always have done which is search for the truth until you find it.

When you do, be appreciatiave of what you have and try to give back to the future generations.

:asian:

But what are they doing? It looks like Ed Parker's American Kenpo to me, and he can be the only 10th there. One thing I allways admired about Mr. Parker was his humility about his rank. He dies and suddenly a lot of his top black belts believe they are now 10th.

:asian:

Chuck

Well, everyone has their own agendas. So each broke off and did what they thought best or were forced to do.

Joe Palanzo was the first to immediately leave the IKKA and develop his own organization. He is first last and always a businessman, I salute him for his talent.

Larry Tatum was not in the IKKA for a couple of years prior to Mr. Parker's death so he started his own thing.

Now we are down to 3 choices......

Dave Hebler was not in the mix for some time so he began the OKKA, same with Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA.

Several others got together and formed the AKSC (LaBounty, Kelly, Planas, White, Trejo, Sepulveda, Conatser, Duffy, Speakman, Hawkins, Edmund Jr. and a host of other black belt..... but this didn't serve as a promotional organization so several broke out of that and formed their own organizations: Hawkins UKS, Speakman's AKKS, Conatser's IKKO, Duffy's AKF, Paul Mills eventually started the AKKI, Mike Pick with his UKF,m Skip Hancock kept with his Kenpo 2000 group, and others that I may off the top of my head have missed no disrespect intended.

Each talented individuals that are Keeping Kenpo alive and well as each sees fit ..... all have differing talents and objectives and all are doing a fine job today with their own groups.

:asian:

At first it was viewed as evil, but with an honest eye one sees that it has always been the case, and ever shall be. The martial arts have always split and divided, just as our own cells do. Purists want a pure source, but there really is no such thing. As knowledge is handed down, it is colored by those who hand it down. Once in awhile, we are blessed with a man like Ed Parker who is capable of encompassing and translating knowledge in such a manner as to be truly revolutionary. He took what he (at first) learned from Chow and revolutionized it- not only that- but he was a great communicator and teacher. He himself presented the material as a flowing, learning, changing, evolving thing.

It is a waste of time to dispute- it is better to absorb and learn. I do not posess the mind or skill of Ed Parker, and I will never make an impact on the world like he did. BUT- Kenpo is a part of me, and I share it how I can with those I can. I'm okay with that.

One legacy Ed Paker left for us is that of open-mindedness tempered with wisdom. Most everyone you meet has something to offer, just be willing to absorb it. I never met the man, but I feel he would agree with that statement. His teachings meant different things to different people, but they were HUGE nonethe less. I think that is a bigger picture.

Sorry- I am feeling particularly introspective tonight.

Vince

I didn't know that Tatum had broken away from Parker before he died. Do you know why? I thought he did it after Mr. Parker died so he could be out of the shadows so to speak.
Good answer though GoldenDragon7.

:asian:

Chuck

I heard through a few other Kenpoists that Tatum had fallen out with Mr. Parker over Tatum's zeal for having sex with students- one of whom got mad and turned things ugly. This is only hearsay, an I am posting it here to see if any of you can either dispell it or give it credence.

I heard this from a couple of totally unrelated sources, so it is either a fairly widespread rumor, or perhaps true.

I had an instructor once who used his school as a meat market and it caused tons of trouble. The temptation can be great, but it must be avoided.

If people want to use their dojo for that, hell, it's their school. I used to be opposed it until I remembered, you reap what you sow.

I mean, IF Tatum was like that, what about it? I never hear anything bad about his Kenpo.

If you don't like what he does, don't train there. I have left schools for similar reasons. I didn't like it so I left people who didn't mind it to their own.

Sounds like the "Balded God" once again shows who the boss is.

:rofl:

Chuck

I don't train American kenpo karate. I train Ed Parker's Kenpo karate.

which is a big diferents in my eyes. Ed Parker's kenpo left the americas long ago about 40 year ago.

I'm not much for halliluja U.S.A it's all about an art developed by a man not a nation. America can not take credit for this. But I understand in there internal identification process in the US the name came about.

I train a system. Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate period
And I train and teach it in Sweden and in any other place that are interested to see my personal style of the art ( my interpretation).
Which has been formed by many instructors during the years.

Respectfully
Ingmar Johansson
Sweden



:angel: :viking3: :viking2: :mp5:

With all due respect, Ed Parker "HIMSELF" was the one that termed what he wanted his art called which was Ed Parker's "American" Kenpo. He purposely dropped the Karate in recent years. This particular "term" (American) came into play in or around early 1980. Mr. Parker's desire was to desginate that this was the first Art to be actually formed on American soil, not a transplanted system from another cournty such as many of the Chinese Arts which have been here for many many years prior. Okinawan, Japanese and Korean Arts followed as well. American is not trying to claim title Ed Parker was.

I agree with you that Ed Parker's Art, did in fact, become truly international (Canada, Mexico, Chile, as well as other South American countires, Australia, Japan, Ireland, England, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and other surrounding European courntries years ago.

I'm sure he meant no disrespect to other countries by the use of the term "American". and I also agree with you that our art is greatly about the Art and the man that developed it and not so much the country, but you must realize that Mr. Parker was a proud patriot by his own choice.

I train the same system as you do. Ed Parker's American Kenpo. I think you should call it Ed Parker's Kenpo, (that would be my second preferable choice) since Mr. Parker eventually wanted the term "Karate" dropped from his systems name due to it being Japanese or Okinawan in origin.

Keep in mind, there are several "Names" for the same system (Ed Parker's American Kenpo) such as Kenpo Karate, Chinese Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo Karate, Ed Parker's Karate, Ed Parker's Kenpo, Parkers Kenpo Karate, and several others.

No matter what you call it, it still is "Kenpo" and that like you stated is really the main thrust of what we should focus on. I have friends in "Kenpo" that use many of the terms listed above to designate their businesses but it is just a matter of semantics. If it comes to a history lesson then I will state the facts for the record, other than that ....... lets just learn from each other regardless what you call it.

So, Ingmar, call it what makes you feel good, I still respect you for the great job that you are doing in Sweden!


:asian:

Thank you Dennis for your historical input. It was interesting to read that Mr Parker took out the word karate in a very early stage.

I know there is a big diferent between our countries. Karate is in many peoples ears a negative word here in Sweden. Therefore we have taken out the word from our name. Our schools name is Kenpo self-defence studio and it has done us very good.

And not signing my letters with Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate and leave the word karate out is not a bad idea.

The word karate make me think on a hard Japanese system with very low stances. Something we don't do. I feel the word karate gives us unjust name for something we are not.

I have to think a little on the idea to only sign my letters with Ed Parker's Kenpo. That is food for thought.

I agree no organisation or name can change the feelings I have for my martial art friends independent what they call themselves.

Ones again thank you for your kind words.

Respectfully

Ingmar Johansson
Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate Sweden






:asian: :rtfm: :viking2: :viking3: :asian:

Yes, we are on the same page. I only use the word when I have to for business recognition. Here in the US, Karate is the one word everyone knows and thinks or references some form of Martial Arts with. Kung Fu, Kenpo, Shotokan, Wado, Praying Mantis, Won Hop Kuen Do, Escrima, Kali, Tae Kwon Do or many other words when used alone does not give the General Public a quick "one word" reference to what business is in this location.

I know of many different typed of Martial Art Studios (most of them listed above) across the American that only use the name "Karate" on their sign. It is less expensive and has that one word eye catching ability. Once people come into the stuios each one then explains exactly which version of "Martial Art" they are doing.

:asian:

Remember our conversation in the restaurant? I found that in "Triggered Salute" that the bicep insert was taking away my technique as I wanted it. But if I change the angle of the strike I can use it to not only check the arm but also use opposing forces. Thanks for giving me a outside look at what I was doing!
:iws:

I'm glad I could help you
Oh by the way who are you???????

Hiiiii, hiiii
Ingmar

:moon: :moon: :moon: :moon:

Hey Gou

Is Jaybacca your friend. Did you know that vaca meens cow in spanish. Is there any relation there.

By the way when is your mexican judo classes begining.
But I guess its all Pats fault!!!!!

Ingmar
El Vikingo

:boing1: :hammer: :viking2: :viking3:

No, Wookies are not even close to cows! Wayyyyyyy too hairy! LOL

Judo know if he has a gun.......
Judo know if he has a knife.....

What I do know is the difference between Karate
and Judo........

Karate is the Art of Self Defense....

Judo is what you make Bagels out of!

:rofl:

:asian:

After working with Gou last sunday something was rank, but I don't think it was his title.

Is he morphing into a Babby Wookie toooooooooooooo!

:confused:

I think maybe it was the peanuts ripening.

If he runs out of water .............. he could always peanuts!
:rofl:

Judo is what u make bagels out of. only you could think that one up

Judo know if I have a gun........

Judo know if I have a knive........

Now go practice... Thursting Lance.... will ya!!

:asian:

Originally posted by vincefuess

At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere. This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ass-kicking ruffians.

Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect. Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.

It was all part of elevating ass kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.

I can remember wearing a Blazer with the Crest on it, meeting Mrs Parker and some of the family off the plane in Jersey, Europe. That was in the early 90's.

I think these days, people go for the jackets with their name and crest on the back. Probably because we don't dress smartly as much as in the "old days"

Les

Great String guys!!!
:asian:

Thanks for the brief history Dennis, it makes it clearer in my head ... and I was around then. UKS was formed initially with Mr. Speakman and Mr. Hawkins before some business dispute forced a separation and Mr. Speakman and John Sepuveda getting together.

After Larry Tatum left, Bryan Hawkins managed the West LA school, that was part of my reason for going with them, besides I had seen him teach and done seminars that rocked.

I am glad some of the controversy is dying down now and people are getting on with teaching the Art. There are different things emphasized as different instructors have different interest, strengths, or relationships with Mr. Parker.

Excellent post "They Call Me Bruce??"

Keep it Real,
-Michael

Originally posted by GouRonin

I have a joke for you.

A hillbilly was sitting naked on his porch whittling with a dull knife when it slipped and cut off his penis.

The penis looked up at him and said, "Man, I know we've had some fist fights but I never thought you'd pull a knife on me."

:rofl:

Duuuude!!!!:shrug:

Yawn

in the school I train at, anyone who is teaching a class is addressed as Mr. or Ms., whether they're a black belt or not. The reasoning being that they are in front of the class and you are in the class because they know something you don't, and you need to respect that, and appreciate that they are willing to share. As a brown belt, I teach some classes, and when I'm teaching people address me as Ms. when I'm not teaching I get called by my first name. black belts, however, when in the studio, are always addressed as Mr. or Ms., whether they're teaching or not. Outside the studio, its up to them. I have some instructors that insist on first names outside the school, and some that prefer Mr. or Ms. all the time. We don't really hold with the fancy titles. I think I've only heard my instructor addressed by a title once or twice in the nine years I've trained with him.

Our school works very similarly to Nightingale's. Black ranks and instructors (identified by a red gi top) are called "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms.", accordingly. When taking class, all students are referred to by their first names. Outside of class, when in street clothes, the students still call the instructors and Black Belts by "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms.".....but that's just the way it's always been.

My head instructor actually wants people to call him by his first name when they are on a friendly basis with him. I am, and I still can't bring myself to do it....;)....same goes with the higher rank Black Belts.....can't call them anything but by their "social" titles (Mr, Mrs, etc.).

I have read of the advanced titles, but have never actually seen them in practice. I don't disagree with them, but just haven't seen them used.

Peace--

hehe. I know what you mean...

my sparring instructor for about two years and I became good friends. he told me a million times to call him John, but it took me a few months to get used to it. now when I see him in the studio, I have to remind myself to call him Mr. instead of by his first name. he'd laugh it off, but if my head instructor heard it, I'd be doing push-ups for a year because brown belts ought to know better. LOL.

Agreed,

Mr and Mrs or Ms. isn't a bad way to address everyone in a studio. That way there is a general respect that travels across the board.

jb:asian:

Originally posted by tonbo

[

My head instructor actually wants people to call him by his first name when they are on a friendly basis with him. I am, and I still can't bring myself to do it....;)....same goes with the higher rank Black Belts.....can't call them anything but by their "social" titles (Mr, Mrs, etc.).

Peace-- [/B]

At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"

Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek" My student was stunned.

Les

Originally posted by Les



At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"

Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek" My student was stunned.

Les

Is this really that big of a deal? My assumption would be that eveyone would give everyone a common level of respect. I agree with calling instructors Mr & Mrs, but I don't think that is that big of a deal. Maybe I've just been exposed to the system for so long that the pecking order feels very natural. As long as respect is given to instructor and student everything is cool.

jb

Originally posted by jbkenpo

Is this really that big of a deal?

jb [/B]

Actually Jason, it's not a big deal for me. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly, but for my Orange belt student, it was a big deal.

He hasn't been with me long, and is still tuned to the formalities of his previous school. (Perhaps they are more formal than me)

Think back to when you were an Orange belt, how would you have reacted then?

Really, I was just making a comment. No big deal.

Les

"When you drink the water, remember the spring from which it came" Paul Mills

When I told my students we may be dropping the title "Sensei", they were quite put out. We'll see where it goes.

Larry Tatum wrote an article on the rank titles that appeared in (I believe) Black Belt Magazine. I have the article (with his permission) posted on my website.

Dave

:confused:
:asian:

yes please...

enlighten us!
or at least give us the website addy!

:)

http://www.kenpokarateshreveport.com/Larry%20Tatum.htm

From Dave Hoppers site.......

:asian:

very informative...thanks.

others may vary a little..........:asian:

I believe in the beginning or ending of that article he stated that he changed some wording (left some stuff out and put others in he thought was necessary). I've got that article around here somewhere.
Jason Farnsworth