How old should a person be for Black Belt? Do you draw a distinction between Black Belt and Jr.Black Belt and if so at what age does a person cross the threshold from 'Jr.' to adult? Is it a specific age, level of maturity or aquired knowledge/proficiency base? Do you make the decision on Black based on your system (in our case Kenpo), associtaion or local laws?


Just wondering...


Peace,
Sandor

I'm a big advocate of people being at least 18 before they get their black. Huk Planas once told me that "How you get your rank is how you give rank." There is a reason he doesn't teach kids.

Junior black belts are excellent incentives. But they are just that. Junior. I believe you have an excellent system set up at your school Sandor and I applaud you on it.


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

Might want to do a search on the boards, since I think we covered this topic pretty well a few months ago.

Cthulhu

but seeing how there are a lot more users now than before I figured it wouldn't hurt to revisit :D

Here's what I posted back when the question was first put forth on the board

Personally, I don't think a person should be allowed to test for black belt until they're 18. Not only do the younger students most likely not the have physical development required, but there has to be a level of maturity for the rank. Also, I think it's important that the person earning the black belt be a legal adult, just in case they have to use their skills and somebody gets seriously hurt.

However, it should be taken on a case by case basis, for some people. I've met a few (very few) 16 year-olds who were more mature than 26 year-olds. If that 16 year-old had been with me for several (5+) years, and demonstrated maturity, I may let them test for black belt. Other than that, I think the 'junior black belt' is a good idea for children and young teens. When they turn 18, they can then test for a black belt.

Cthulhu

Judging from what I have seen of junior black belts- they are really only gymanstics or dance experts. They got some moves, but have no grasp of the mentality behind the moves.

Moving into the teen years, I have seen some young practitioners who deserved the black belt they wore at 16yo- but a minimum of 18 years is a very good idea.

I feel better about seeing junior BB's in TKD uniforms than Kenpo. The way most TKD schools teach, even the adults are junior black belts.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I hear that the TKD guys send 8 year old assasins if you diss their art.

Oh Man!!!! I don't know about you, Gou- but I would feel a bit bad about slapping a nasty rendition of five swords on an 8yo TKD hotshot! But then again, if the little focker had the goolies to bring it to my door....

Then again, that stuff is hard to pull off from a squat...

I had too many smileys in my last post and it got axed. Dammit, just trying to pay my dues here!!!:D

When do I get my friggin yellow belt??????????:mad: :mad: :mad:

ROFL, Vince! We're not worried about ranks, are we???
;)

Originally posted by vincefuess
When do I get my friggin yellow belt??????????

Kaith, have you told him about the MartialTalk belt testing fees yet? :D

This white thing is too bright- it hurts my grizzled old well-blackened eyes!!

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!

I think a child can have their Black Belt when they can beat an adult for it. Now that I am advocating the beating of children, I can imagine all the horrible emails I will recieve.

I think a person must be able to hold their head up high as a Black Belt. It is not the children wearing these belts fault, it is the instructor who has cow towed to the parents and money. When an instructor sells belts to children they are also selling their own soul, at the cost of innocent children.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I think a person must be able to hold their head up high as a Black Belt. It is not the children wearing these belts fault, it is the instructor who has cow towed to the parents and money. When an instructor sells belts to children they are also selling their own soul, at the cost of innocent children.

I'm not sure what the effect or cost is to children--the pride is false but then many parents instill false pride in their children. That is a mistake, I believe, but my point is that it is not a rare one.

But I agree most strongly that it is the fault of instructors who are facing the financial realities of being a full-time martial arts instructor--I don't believe I've ever met a part-time instructor who gives these out; it only happnes amongst those who depend on it for their livelihood--and that it is a sad situation. One could argue that the black belt itself is only a roughly 120 year old tradition in judo and less in every other art in whihc it is used and they are not giving a menkyo kaiden to 8 year olds, but I still believe it is disrespectful and inappropriate. These children can not possibly be the independent instructors and users of the arts that an adult black belt can. It's ridiculous--an embarrassment.

I would like to think that these teachers' teachers are rolling over in their graves.

It does hurt these children if they ever have to defend themselvesand think they are up to the task and find out they can not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Many adults today have issues and esteem problems from people telling them they are better than they actually were in their childhood. I too see many full time instructors fall into this trap, and i am starting to see it in some part time instructors who would rather give a worthless belt than deal with some Karate Mom.

Black belt maturity comes from inside. It represents a strength of spirit. I have known some kids who were terrific at performing martial arts, but on the inside, they were still kids. The black belt stands for much more than punching, kicking and cartwheels- it signifies a strength of spirit. Like the edge of a blade- anybody can grind a sharp edge on it, but it takes an experienced craftsman to put an edge on it that will last through repeated usage and remain keen. Maturity is key to black belt excellence.

Vince - Hope the yellow calmer on the old eye balls. We gotta budget the smilies.... I think its a limit of 10 per post. And no fair posting 3x just to get em all out. :)

Hmm....MT Belt test fees.... Ok, $30, and you can have an "Official" Martial Talk Black Belt. Requirements? Must have the requisit # posts, and your check clears. If under 18, your mom has to yell at me alot too. :D

I agree with you guys. I'm sorry, but unless the kid is the reincarnation of Bruce Lee, there aint no 8yr old truely deserving of the black belt, or title of "Sensei". I understand the self-estesteme bit, but I think your right. It can lead to false confidence, which can lead to serious tragedy.

:asian:

If I pay $500 now, can I just be called GOD. I don't want people getting upset by that comment it is just a joke.

Sure. :) I can go with that. :)

Oh man- just ten per post???:confused: I love these smiley guys!:D Can't get enough:cool: These little dudes are too much fun:rolleyes: Do ya have one that barfs?:eek: That would be awesome;) and useful!!:rofl:

Tangent....

http://forums.rustaz.com/misc.php?action=showsmilies

Go shopping and PM me the top couple y'all like. Might add em next upgrade.

BTW: Fan-Cons another forum I run. Needs people. :)

:)

/tangent

Barf is great!!! Bomb would be quite useful here. Blue boingy was cool, but not sure how to use him.

I kind of like the the tank, it is what I would want to have with me at a knife fight.

The barfing doesn't do much for me but the flush was cool.

I like the 18 year age limit as a guideline. Jr. BB for those under that age. If a younger student shows the maturity, and the skill then the instructor can evaluate that student for Black Belt. I believe those cases would be rare.

I agree that there are too many 8 and 9 year old blackbelts out there. It seems that 18 would be a good general rule with few excepteions. If a 16 year old has been training diligently for 10 years and demonstrates the proper attitude and skills, it seems unfair to say that the person cannot earn a black belt until s/he is 18.

But then again, I saw an orange belt that I used to study with who was incredibly respected. He could mop the floor with many black belts (certainly any that did not deserve the rank and probably some that did). The guy was huge, powerful, incredibly quick for a 250+ pound man, and had studied various martial arts for nearly 10 years! He just was not interested in earning belt rank. While I was there, the senior instructor insisted that the person work towards gaining rank and he quickly advanced. The rank was certainly deserved.

If you're good (or bad for that matter) it really doesn't matter what belt you're wearing. I guess any student who was under 18 who really deserved a black belt could live with wearing a brown belt, and those that couldn't probably don't deserve the black belt rank to begin with. Now I've gone and contradicted my intitial statement.

I guess it's a case by case decision to be decided by the instructor. Many will base that decision on $$$$.

Jim

The general consensus of this post seems to be that a mature
child around the age of 16, if well deserved, should be given
his black belt, but otherwise .. wait until he's 18. At my school,
my instructor gives Jr Black Belts to his kids, basically, in taekwon
do. Then they start to earn tabs on that belt, for doing
techniques in the kenpo curriculumn. At this point, they're of an
age where they can ascertain that this style is different from that
of TKD, and the techniques can have fatal results. That's where
the maturity comes in for me, and I think it's something that
should be considered. Teaching a 5 year old kid how to blind
a guy that fights him over the monkey bars sure seems a bit
harsh to me. I say it over and over again, I'm new to kenpo,
so fill me in on the knowledge I'm missing here .. but I'm not
sure that kenpo should be taught to young kids.

Once a "kid" has received his junior black belt, then gotten all
of his tabs, then he'll start coming to the adult class .. it does
take awhile to get there, so typically the kids are 16. They
test as adults at the next belt test, and if they pass, then they
receive a purple belt. Going from there, to black in 2 years
would be a hell of a task. You get to come to the adult class
regardless at 16, but those guys that have received their
Jr Black Belts have serious skills when they get there!

Ever since that damn chimpanzee got his black belt it's been nothing but hell in a handbasket.

We tended to teach the kenpo techniques with modified targets to anyone (adults included) that we felt could not be trusted with the full technique. That begs the question of why these people (at least the adults) were being taught in the first place but I think that really boiled down to money and not wanting to remove a student and cause an issue when there were other ways to circumvent the problem. It also provided the student with the opportunity to mature or otherwise change their ways. Seems reasonable for children.

Jim

Lets try and look at the other side of the coin. How old is too old to get a Black Belt. One of the local instructors where I live was just in the newspaper for promoting 3 senior citizen ladies to Black Belt. They all have been with him for two years, one is 74, one 69, and the third 67. They all are studying Tae Kwon Do, yet none of them can't kick over their waist. They can't break boards, and they have their own special 45 minute class once a week. To me it seems like just another publicity stunt. Is there an age when someone shouldn't get their Black Belt.

What do you all think?

I am willing to cut a bit more slack for old timers getting their black belts, though it IS generally a publicity stunt. At least the old folk are on the completing end of life's journey, so giving them an honorary black belt isn't likely to screw them up the way it could a kid- y'know, thinking rewards in life come easy.

This may make me look like a jerk, but what the heck...

I would like it better if the people in question were given honorary black belts. To me, a black belt can imply that one day, the person will pass the art on. A person who has just trained for a year or so is not going to be capable of passing the art on...especially if the person can't do many of the techniques.

Giving actual rank to the very young or very old is great for publicity and most certainly gives the people a great sense of accomplishment, but it trivializes what I have worked so hard for. And I just don't like that. An honorary black belt with some sort of certificate stating the belt is for outstanding achievement or something is just as good.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Lets try and look at the other side of the coin. How old is too old to get a Black Belt.

This is I think different from the idea of giving a black belt to those too young to understand and teach. It's more akin to giving a black belt to a physically handicapped person. I've never had to face the issue of giving a belt to someone clearly unable to perform the technique due to such limitations--I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd like to be inclusive but I'd also like people to be able to demonstrate and not merely explain the techniques. I suspect I would err on the side of granting a belt to someone who was doing their best and who understood the techniques. I don't find it an easy issue. Medical schools face similar issues all the time. Blind individuals have been graduated but people with other disabilities have not always been allowed to study. Should every medical school graduate be a potential surgeon?

Originally posted by vincefuess

I feel better about seeing junior BB's in TKD uniforms than Kenpo. The way most TKD schools teach, even the adults are junior black belts.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


Now that isnt very nice vince... Funny but not nice.

Originally posted by arnisador


This is I think different from the idea of giving a black belt to those too young to understand and teach. It's more akin to giving a black belt to a physically handicapped person. I've never had to face the issue of giving a belt to someone clearly unable to perform the technique due to such limitations--I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd like to be inclusive but I'd also like people to be able to demonstrate and not merely explain the techniques. I suspect I would err on the side of granting a belt to someone who was doing their best and who understood the techniques. I don't find it an easy issue. Medical schools face similar issues all the time. Blind individuals have been graduated but people with other disabilities have not always been allowed to study. Should every medical school graduate be a potential surgeon?

You bring up some very interesting points. If I may, I'll share my perspective on 'geriatric' dans. One of the instructors I have studied under promoted a student to black not so long ago. Not a big deal in the big picture until you stop to realize the student started as a white belt at 71. At 76 he earned his rank and is one heck of a black belt not to mention the inspirational factor of seeing a person so advanced in years acheive the rank. Old folks can hit, and hit hard. They need the material because they are potential victims of violent crime due to their age. I have no problem with the promotion at all. Like I said it is inspiring especially considering my father passed away at that age.

This is entirely a different issue than the Jr. black issue. A senior not only understands the implications of their rank (a child can't really fathom what shodan means when they are 6 yrs old). I also don't have a problem with physically disabled promotions to black. I know a parapalegic who you wouldn't want to mess with. The tenacity and drive to get the rank couppled with the specialized material they have to develop based upon their own limitations makes Kenpo ideal for them.

Bruce Lee, who was an inspiring athlete and martial artist often stated that he acheived his proficiency in the arts in spite of his own physical disability. Food for thought.

One other thing, you made a reference to doctors which is an analogy I often use in class. You have two students who graduate from med school, both are doctors. One is an A student, the other barely passes by some miraculous feat of mathematics. Still both are doctors and the question becomes; Which one do you want to perform surgurey on you?

I think Sandor has stated the issue to a 'T'. If you want to put age restrictions on getting a black belt then you have to define what the criteria for getting said black belt is.

The point is you are a better person when you get your black than when you start classes.

I know, I know there is some technical proficiency involved here. But picture this, you practise for 30 years and due to some sort of illness you can't perform the way you used to. Should you be demoted then because you don't fit somebody's ideal of what a black belt should do or should you tailor your art to keep it's effectivness and yet allow you to actually do the techniques. That was one of Mr. Parker's great contributions. He said that the art should fit the person not the other way around.

This doesn't really apply to the under 18 situation, I believe in junior black belts and keeping them seperate until they are ready to bang with the adults (within reason of course, don't throw them to the 19 year old 1st degrees) Then move them up and start them learning the real stuff, by the time they are ready to grade again they will be 18 or over.

Our job as teachers is to inspire and instill confidence not kick the crap out of people just because they are not as talented as the next guy.

This has been a great thread to watch unfold! :asian:

One of my favorite martial arts websites (Shotokan Planet) has some interesting comments on what the dan rankings mean in Japan:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/rankhistory.html

My favorite comment:

"You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."

Of course a bb in kenpo has it's own meaning and that meaning comes mostly from the relationship between you and the person who decides you are to wear the rank and partly from the community in which you operate.

Cheers,

Shine, 10'th dan in joie de vivre :lol:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shine
[B]
My favorite comment:

["You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."]

I agree with this totally..........

First of all, I don't think this thread is out of line, but I do think it my be a little counter productive for the older generation who may want to train but may be a little insecure about their age and abilities. And on the otherside of the coin this thread may take away the feeling of pride that some of the older readers may feel from attaining their black belts.

I think there is much more to attaining a black belt then just being able to physically perform techniques. I feel that in order to attain a black belt, one must have heart. Having heart to go out there and train with all the young'ins every day shows a different form of physical strength. For example, to push yourself when you know that you have severe asthma and not allowing that to stop your drive to learn and excel, I think heart is a good substitute for the criteria of physical prowness......
I don't think that just because someone is older they should have it easier then me, but they should be allowed to show a different attribute to replace certain ones that time my have taken from them.
I have trained with many from the "older" crowd, and they taught me many lessons about heart and having them around displaying their love for the arts, helps me to strive harder and not take my attributes for granted....
and after awhile seeing them grow and adapt their training to who they are is where they prove the right to wear a black belt.....

I think this statement sums it all up
[Of course a black belt has it's own meaning and that meaning comes mostly from the relationship between you and the person who decides you are to wear the rank and partly from the community in which you operate.]

Just my 2 cents........
Thanks
Bob
p.s. Final note: don't teach to many of your tricks to the "older" generation, because they will come back to use it on you at a later date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I am still regretting it to this day!!!!!!!!!!! Way to go GEO...........

Since I am the one who directed this into who old is too old for Black Belt. I must say that I am not against seniors getting a Black Belt, actually I am all for it. My problem is with the schools that use seniors getting Belts as a publicity stunt. Most of the time these people now have a false sense of secuirty because the program has mean modified so much so that they can get thru it. I have met several senior citizens that have earned a Black Belt, many deserve it, some do not. I feel bad for these people who have had the program so modified and then have smoke blown up their arse to think that they can actually defens themselves.

I hope more seniors train, do the best they can, earn their Black Belt even if the program has been modified to fit them. Just lets hope the instructor is giving them their rank for what they have accomplished not for another story in the newspaper.

Originally posted by shine
..."You can hold dan rank not only in the martial-arts, but also in calligraphy,
flower arrangement, and even baseball."

...

Musashi wrote about how a true warrior mastered many ways. For three years Musashi sat locked away, no human contact save the visitations of his keepers who brought him food and Takuan who brought him a seemingly endless supply of books. Essentually a prison sentence, the result of a wise bargain between Takuan and the Emporer for Shienmen Takezo's crimes against the state. His adventure in life was really beginning when Takuan and the Emporer released him. An incredible education, natural skills and some incredible luck... He was bound to be a great man. I digress.

The reason I am rambling about Musashi is he made an incredible effort to understand and master the other arts, perhaps being one of Japan's first renaissance men in that context and became an accomplished caligrapher/artist/sculptor. I have often wondered if this was the way before his time or a result of it.

It doesn't surprise me that dans are awarded for mastery of other things.

Thanks for the link :)

Peace,
Sandor

Originally posted by Sandor

It doesn't surprise me that dans are awarded for mastery of other things.

Me either. I'm on the phone with Trojan, Ramses, and Sheik right now pleading my case.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by GouRonin


Me either. I'm on the phone with Trojan, Ramses, and Sheik right now pleading my case.
:rolleyes:

Hehehe ROFLMAO! That, my friend, was the funniest thing I've seen you post all year!

As for myslef I belive that a Black Belt should have more meaning than doing X number of forms and Xy number of self defence. A person should have the mental ability to tell right from wrong just from unjust and be of legal age to take the consiquences for his actions.
Now I am not saying a person with mental handicaps can not atttain a Blak Belt but that is a whole other subject.
On the other hand I live in a country where oe can not serve in the military and kill there country's enemys until they are 18
Please forgive spellin mitakes I spell poorly
Shadow

I agree 18 is a good age (legal adult)

I was 16 when I got my first degree black belt, and 18 when I got my second, now I will be 20 when I get my 3rd.

:D

What I always find interesting about these sorts of discussions--and the discussions over whether or not kids can earn a legit black belt--is that they always rely on a binary opposition: "their," illegitimacy vs. "my," unspoken perfection.

At some level, in some fashion, all of us black belts suck. We all of us--well, darn near--at some level, in some fashion, fall short of the criteria for legit black belt status.

Among the reasons you need to be advanced to promote students to black belt is this: you need to be advanced enough to be able to take the whole student into account.

Of course, this is open to considerable abuse...I guess one of the reasons for the kenpo system is to give us SOME sort of reasonably-objective criteria...

The only reason that I have gone through these belts so quickly is

1. I am a quick learner
2. I have a photo graphic memory
3. I practice at home to make my self better, which has paid off in my eyes
4. I am a profectionist when it comes to martial arts, I said I did not want to test for my second brown when I was supose to because I thought I was not ready
5. I started when I was 13 and I was to big for the kids class so I started in the adult class

If I wasn't this lucky I would not have red stripes I would have white.

I am not trying to be mean that is just what I want to say about that.

I thought i'd add my 2 cents.

Since i have a child in karate.

My son's instructor, has an 8 year son her self who is JUST got a Junior black belt,,, BUT, he still have to go through teen/adult belt before he gets his * true black belt*

I don't think age has as much to do with it as much as maturity, understanding and ability. LOL i'm no expert, just from what i'm learning..

I thought this post was great because i notice a student older teen, with a black belt with a white stripe on the end, and this belt wasn't on the wall, MOST belts are in order on the walls, So i asked the my son instructor and she said he's a junior black, then she pointed to her son who also has same title Junior BUT 2 very different belts. She said this older teen i think he was turning 17, was going for his black very soon. I watched him teacher a famaily class while the instructor was talking to us. very impressive.

Norma

:D

What I have seen in to many Schools though it is tough to transition to a higher intensity when you go from the junior ranks to the senior ranks. They tend to still not have allot of intensity when they are hitting. Thus they tend to get frustrated when they join the adults.

Thanks for listening.

Rick

I think as far as a junior black belt goes, it is a very good self esteem builder, but for a black belt the age would vary depending on the maturity of the person. There should however be a minimum age requirement due to some people mature quicker than others but are still not mentally ready to deal with the repurcussions of doing some of the material in the art. I believe it should be based on a certain skill level and the ability to not fight at every opportunity.

I'm 47 with my first Black. My 15 year old son started with me 7 years ago and has his Junior Black. The interesting thing is that he is actually the better martial artist. He remembers the techniques better and generally has better technique. I find that he has internalized the art far better than me and when challenged with unfamiliar holds or unexpected attacks acts in a more natural and frankly more effective manner.

I believe that people should be able to earn an adult blackbelt when they are able to train and test with adults at adult standards. Very few 14 year olds will qualify for this standard, some 21 year olds still don't qualify.

I don´t mind oldies getting black belts as long as they deserve them. I think those ladies should kick higher or stick with a lower belt basically. I also don´t mind the idea of young black belts. Again I think they need to be judged by the same standard. My class doesn´t have any black belts yet but some of the yellow and orange belt kids of seven to ten years or so are very serious and dedicated. I don´t see the harm of them getting to black belt in a few years´time as long as they have a good attitude and can do the stuff.

Musashi wrote about how a true warrior mastered many ways. For three years Musashi sat locked away, no human contact save the visitations of his keepers who brought him food and Takuan who brought him a seemingly endless supply of books. Essentually a prison sentence, the result of a wise bargain between Takuan and the Emporer for Shienmen Takezo's crimes against the state. His adventure in life was really beginning when Takuan and the Emporer released him. An incredible education, natural skills and some incredible luck... He was bound to be a great man. I digress.

The reason I am rambling about Musashi is he made an incredible effort to understand and master the other arts, perhaps being one of Japan's first renaissance men in that context and became an accomplished caligrapher/artist/sculptor. I have often wondered if this was the way before his time or a result of it.

It doesn't surprise me that dans are awarded for mastery of other things.

Thanks for the link :)

Peace,
Sandor

Are you sure that that "actually" happened? I know it is part of Eiji Yoshikawa's excellent dramatization (which I am currently re-reading) but I have never heard that told as one of the "real" stories. Your point stands regaurdless by the way, I'm just curious.

I recently watched the Samurai I--II--III movies and it's in there too (was it 3 years?). I don't know what the facts are though!

if its main purpose is to hold up one pants.

if a kid lacks the "maturity", focus, discipline, etc. he won't stick with it long enough to know anyway.

Last year I saw a news website that stated two 3 1/2 year old boys just received their rank of (2nd Degree Black Belt)Nidan....

To me that just spits on a black belt to the point that it becomes a #1 Supersized at McDondalds.....

Belts are great for kids and give goals, but when they are frequently given out they pretty much become a Youth Sports Trophy for participating.

Back on topic...

I say 21 for blackbelt, so students can drink the pain away after a couple hours of beat downs..Junior Blackbelt is a good idea for kids, but the real deal should be kept only for adults who can handle everything that goes with being a blackbelt.

Last year I saw a news website that stated two 3 1/2 year old boys just received their rank of (2nd Degree Black Belt)Nidan....

To me that just spits on a black belt to the point that it becomes a #1 Supersized at McDondalds.....

Belts are great for kids and give goals, but when they are frequently given out they pretty much become a Youth Sports Trophy for participating.

Back on topic...

I say 21 for blackbelt, so students can drink the pain away after a couple hours of beat downs..Junior Blackbelt is a good idea for kids, but the real deal should be kept only for adults who can handle everything that goes with being a blackbelt.


I know exactly what you mean! It used to bother me that when kids had a black belt and I knew that I could take them( as a manner of speaking) :uhyeah: . Then in recent years it started bothering me when I would meet other black belt from other schools that would say stuff like please don't hit me hard :idunno: . Just wait a second! I thought you were a nidan or yondan. What the heck! I just don't worry about it. I form my own opinion about most students and just keep it to myself. I think that is best.

On the flip side of that coin my instructor's son is 22 started when he was 9 is only an orange belt (is really really really good orange belt). Man talk about tough promotion cycle.

I could live with a person of fourteen having a black belt if they´ve been training since six or so. But they must be able to punch and kick with adult strength. I believe there are some that could. I´m not sure setting a precise age limit is a good idea as strength varies so much. There is a fearsome nine-year-old white belt in my class who punches with all his weight behind it. The adults have begun to decide this is the only kid they don´t need to go easy on. Last week our teacher (2nd Dan) had to sit down for five minutes with tears in his eyes after this little bruiser kicked him where it really hurts!

I could live with a person of fourteen having a black belt if they´ve been training since six or so. But they must be able to punch and kick with adult strength. I believe there are some that could. I´m not sure setting a precise age limit is a good idea as strength varies so much. There is a fearsome nine-year-old white belt in my class who punches with all his weight behind it. The adults have begun to decide this is the only kid they don´t need to go easy on. Last week our teacher (2nd Dan) had to sit down for five minutes with tears in his eyes after this little bruiser kicked him where it really hurts!
I started training at 6, knew the material for BB by 12, but by-laws said I couldn't have it till 16, minimum. At 14, I sparred with a Tang Soo Doo 4th Dan, 34 years old, and about 200 lbs, and whooped him. My immediate instructor decided to by-pass the by-laws, and grant me my shodan.

That being said, I make 'em wait till 18. (What a butthead).

Witha all that being said what should a "junior black belt" look like? black with a white stripe down the middle or what I have never personally seen one that looks like and thing other than a regular black belt.

What I have always seen was a black belt with a white tip.

At my old school Jr. BB were black belts with the lettering and such in gold. We had from 1st to 3rd deg Jr. BB's These kids then continues to train in Jr. BB classes, typically learning various weapons forms. Eventually at a certain age they moved up to the adult classes at which point they wore black belts with a colored stripe through it. They would test with adult requirements now and when they promoted they would get a new belt with the black on the outside and current adult color as a stripe through the middle. Kind of like a normal belt with a black stripe through it, this was the reverse.

For my two cents on the original topic, personally in terms of the whole age thing, I earned my BB at 17. I think I was mature enough for it and to understand the significance of it. Though I do agree that the younger kids who haven't even hit puberty yet typically aren't ready for an adult BB, I do think that it should be dependent upon maturity as much as age. And at 15 or 16 if someone has the skill and maturity for the BB I don't think they should be denied just because of their age. I've met some 15 or 16 yr olds that would surpass some 30 yr olds in terms of their maturity and understanding about life.