Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

In our branch of TKD we train with very little or very soft contact, at least amongst the coloured belts, there's no point in hurting each other to train. When we do contact, we use kick shields and focus pads to contact with.
I believe their may be a touch more contact amongst the Dan ranks but not having seen these train I can't be totally sure, it wouldn't make sense to me to have anyone kicking holes out of each other though when there's other methods of getting the power in your kicks.

I'm sure the hospital has enough to do without patching us lot up too.

Contact is always good. Whether you are working with tools, kicks, hand strikes, trapping or joint locking and finally grappling. In IRT contact is important whether it be light or full contact. Great thread. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Light Contact to learn the technique. Whether its Striking, Grappling, or Groundfighting, its all fairly relaxed when learning the move itself, its more important to develop form than power at this point.

Medium-Full Contact to practice applying the technique, in either drills or sparring. We have the form, now up the power/speed/etc and apply it on a resisting opponent.
Attempts to sacrifice form for power usually end rather badly at this point. We're pretty strict on that. The pain makes me weep like little girl. Sob.

Contact is a big requirement especially if the goal of training is self defense. The training hall is the place to make the mistakes and correct them, rather than getting a surprise when someone is really trying to knock your head off.

Of course, depending on the ranks involved, contact should be geared accordingly. If two white belts are working together, contact should probably be little to none until that control aspect can be built.

For myself, I like a mixture. Sometimes when running thru a technique, it'll be light contact. The 'attack' is still going to be realistic, just on a slower scale. Then there are times when its good to pick up the pace, and really throw those strikes. Keeps it real and it keeps ya on your toes! :ultracool

Mike

Contact is always good. Whether you are working with tools, kicks, hand strikes, trapping or joint locking and finally grappling. In IRT contact is important whether it be light or full contact. Great thread. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Excellent thread..http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifI'm with Brian on this...When I train with Father Greek at seminars we go at it big time...

Light Contact to learn the technique. Whether its Striking, Grappling, or Groundfighting, its all fairly relaxed when learning the move itself, its more important to develop form than power at this point.

Medium-Full Contact to practice applying the technique, in either drills or sparring. We have the form, now up the power/speed/etc and apply it on a resisting opponent.
Attempts to sacrifice form for power usually end rather badly at this point. We're pretty strict on that. The pain makes me weep like little girl. Sob.

Ditto.

MJS put it across with nice brevity I think. When I did Lau, sparring was always deemed to be 'as full contact as your rank permits' i.e. the higher you were the more 'physicality' was deemed acceptable.

Of course back then, the concept of being padded up meant wearing shin guards so you soon learned, Sensei Pain being rather efficient :eek:.

Contact is always good. Whether you are working with tools, kicks, hand strikes, trapping or joint locking and finally grappling. In IRT contact is important whether it be light or full contact. Great thread. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif


I would agree with what Brian said

Contact is a big requirement especially if the goal of training is self defense. The training hall is the place to make the mistakes and correct them, rather than getting a surprise when someone is really trying to knock your head off.

Of course, depending on the ranks involved, contact should be geared accordingly. If two white belts are working together, contact should probably be little to none until that control aspect can be built.

For myself, I like a mixture. Sometimes when running thru a technique, it'll be light contact. The 'attack' is still going to be realistic, just on a slower scale. Then there are times when its good to pick up the pace, and really throw those strikes. Keeps it real and it keeps ya on your toes! :ultracool

Mike

Agreed, Mike, especially the graduated degree of contact/force. Don't want my higher ranks to go out and be surprised at what reality is like. On the other hand, don't want them to sustain permanent injuries in the training hall, either. As we increase the level of force over time, students are able to handle the increased contact--often even welcome it. This is a good thing. :) On the other hand, as you said, sometimes it's good just to take it easy. Don't always want to wear the killer face in training; actually can lead to burnout after four or five years, imho.

i like contact.. unfortunatly at our school we keep it lite contact..i think that i will help condition your body.. im all for it. :D

Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

1. Where I train the level of contact varies depending on many variables, but anywhere from light to full.

2. There are alot of opinions regarding this topic. I feel the whole range of contact is important and has its place and purposes. For example,
light contact can be used when first trying new techniques and hard contact can be used to allow you to learn something about yourself. Medium contact can be used to turn it up but still stay mostly safe.

3. Answered above

I feel the whole range of contact is important and has its place and purposes. For example, light contact can be used when first trying new techniques and hard contact can be used to allow you to learn something about yourself. Medium contact can be used to turn it up but still stay mostly safe.

Very astute. :asian:

Of doesn't it depend on what art you train in also?

Very astute. :asian:

Thank you sir

Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

There is always contact in our training. It is often between soft and hard contact. Another words, I get alot of bruises, but then I bruise easily. In fact, you can tell if someone trains in the bujinkan by the bruises they carry! :rofl:

I think some contact is important. I think it is part of shugyo "forge the spirit".

I have tried to tell my students that contact must be made when practicing, some understand some just seem to refuse to make contact until hurt or angry. Controlled sparring without contact, to me, is like shadow boxing or fighting oneself in a mirror.
As the old saying goes "if you have never been hit how do you know how you will react when hit".

-How much contact do you train with??

A lot, I do Traditional Taiji and you have push hands and then there is Xingyi applications

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile??

A lot, I do Traditional Taiji and you have push hands, if you want to understand Taiji and use it as it is meant to be used as a MA you need a lot of push hands

In Xingyi applications, I will just say it appears that most people that train Xingyi are into pain :uhyeah:

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

Balance is a good thing. But I have seen more of it in Taiji than Xingyi, but then I am fairly new to xingyi by comparison to taiji. But then again, Xingyi tends to be more aggressive than Taiji.

I agree 100% with TShadowChaser. :boxing:

We train from very light contact when first doing a technique, to downright jarring your teeth loose. It depends on the persons training together and the technique. Shoot some days I even get to go home WITHOUT a new bruise (not very often, but it has happened.) I do hate the days when the technique is done with a bo staff or hanbo; contact is usually hard and painful, but very quick to remember. Just as an "oh, by the way..." a wooden tanto training knife can cause a fella to bleed :( don't ask, I stabbed myself in the head because I couldn't let go and was tied up into a pretzel when I hit the mat.

I like a good thumping now and again.

I find that the adults at the studio tend to be a bit old and creeky (me too), so getting up of the ground after a take down, for the fourth or fifth time does seem to take more time. I have a tremendous amount of fun with the lower ranks and with the younger students.

When the kids come across from the Kenpo Kids class - where there is very little contact - and move up through the adult levels, I love to have them turn up the heat on me. I don't mind taking the hits ... and I believe it is good for them to know what a real impact will feel like on their joints and muscles.

Regardless of the age of my training partner, when reversing the principle, we start lightly and work up the force level.

I have a blast with Five Swords. First, getting my counterpart to understand how the first block must be a solid strike to stop my incoming punch, and then to have them turn up the heat on their strikes. We'll ratchet up the force quite a bit. Sometimes, I need to remind the students they get to hit me five times versus my one attempted hit.

:)

I do hate the days when the technique is done with a bo staff or hanbo; contact is usually hard and painful, but very quick to remember.

It doesn't take much from a bo or hanbo to really hurt. That is why we don't let beginners train with wooden training weapons until they have achieved a certain level of control. For them, it is padded weapons.

Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

I train in both SKK and BJJ.

For SKK in depends what you are talking about or what we are covering. If we are just practicing targeting on each other there will be either no contact or very little. If we are doing defese techs where there are take downs it will very with the belts. The same applys to the kempos. If you are including sparring in this than obviously there will be contact but it is always slow at first and the fastest we go is a medium pace, some times me and one of the BB will go at a faster pace only becuase I can take the hits and it makes me better to have someone with good control coming at me fast.

In my BJJ contact is essintial. If training drill or techs we use what is necessary, but if we are having free rolls we will set a pace at the beginning and go from there.

B

As the old saying goes "if you have never been hit how do you know how you will react when hit".

Bravo..Well said...Some of the officers in the academy haven't been in a serious fist fight since grade school..They need to understand what it feels like to take a hit so when it happens on the street that won't go crazy and lose focus..That can REALLY get you hurt...

It doesn't take much from a bo or hanbo to really hurt

true.
Many years ago I was working out with my top student and he landed a strong technique on my left hand. The results was 3 broken bones in my hand. He stopped after he saw the pain on my face and me dropping the stick I had in it, that resulted in him getting hit with the other short stick I had in my other hand.
Yes he stopped out of concern but I was afraid it would become a natural reaction for him and he was in law enforcement so I wanted to break the reaction before it became a habit.
Contact happens and we must learn to deal with it and to our response as an attacker not just defender

true.
Many years ago I was working out with my top student and he landed a strong technique on my left hand. The results was 3 broken bones in my hand. He stopped after he saw the pain on my face and me dropping the stick I had in it, that resulted in him getting hit with the other short stick I had in my other hand.
Yes he stopped out of concern but I was afraid it would become a natural reaction for him and he was in law enforcement so I wanted to break the reaction before it became a habit.
Contact happens and we must learn to deal with it and to our response as an attacker not just defender

That's a profound point. Moreso because you taught this lesson on the spot, without advantage of preparation. The student was lucky to have such a fine teacher. :) Kudos. :ultracool

At our school the rules are: no legs or head shots until brown belt (instructors, however, will probably hit you in the face if you don't keep your guard up); all gear must be worn until brown, after that it's at your own discretion; contact as hard or soft as you and your partner can agree upon; groin shots are encouraged.

The kickboxing class is full contact and sometimes the kickboxers forget to pare it back in karate class, so occasionally there is leg/head contact. I actually like this because 1) it's a reality check; and 2) it's good to have the opportunity to shake off a painful shot. You have to know what it feels like so you know what to expect IRL.

it also teaches the student that just because the rules say no shots to that area it dose not mean they can forget to block attacks to those area

It doesn't take much from a bo or hanbo to really hurt. That is why we don't let beginners train with wooden training weapons until they have achieved a certain level of control. For them, it is padded weapons.


Quite true! Plus it is fun to watch their faces the first time they train without the padded weapons and even a light contact gives that "Oooh, that would hurt a LOT at speed!" feeling. It really opens the eyes to how much damage a walking stick, an umbrella, or cane would be able to do if pressed into service. I think there has to be a bit of contact to get that across to somebody who has never really been hit for real. Not excessive of course, that would just be stupid; but enough for the concept to click that this is GOING to hurt someone if done for real.

Great thing you did Tshadowchaser! It hurt sure, but it wouldn't have stopped the fight and we all have to remember that. I had my collerbone and shoulder broken during training (My fault mostly) and it was an eye opener for most people in class when I just got up off the floor, laughed at my brother and told him what happened, tucked my arm into my Gi top, then calmly walked off the floor and put my things away with my good side, to drive up the the hospital. In a fight, it would have slowed me down a step, but not stopped if it were a true encounter.

Yeah, we had some hard contact.

I think there has to be a bit of contact to get that across to somebody who has never really been hit for real. Not excessive of course, that would just be stupid; but enough for the concept to click that this is GOING to hurt someone if done for real.


Oh definitely! The deer in the headlights look! :D

Hurting is OK, injuring is NOT.

Quite true! Plus it is fun to watch their faces the first time they train without the padded weapons and even a light contact gives that "Oooh, that would hurt a LOT at speed!" feeling. It really opens the eyes to how much damage a walking stick, an umbrella, or cane would be able to do if pressed into service. I think there has to be a bit of contact to get that across to somebody who has never really been hit for real. Not excessive of course, that would just be stupid; but enough for the concept to click that this is GOING to hurt someone if done for real.

Important point.

Great thing you did Tshadowchaser! It hurt sure, but it wouldn't have stopped the fight and we all have to remember that. I had my collerbone and shoulder broken during training (My fault mostly) and it was an eye opener for most people in class when I just got up off the floor, laughed at my brother and told him what happened, tucked my arm into my Gi top, then calmly walked off the floor and put my things away with my good side, to drive up the the hospital. In a fight, it would have slowed me down a step, but not stopped if it were a true encounter.

Yeah, we had some hard contact.

This is something that doesn't get talked about much in 'the' studio. Too often we assume that if we do X the pain will force him to do Y. But what if it doesn't? Great illustration, Bydand (sorry, I bolded your quote, but for a good cause).

Important point.



This is something that doesn't get talked about much in 'the' studio. Too often we assume that if we do X the pain will force him to do Y. But what if it doesn't?


That is why I say it isn't about pain compliance, it is about control. Of course pain can be interjected at any point if necessary, but control isn't obtained through pain.

That is why I say it isn't about pain compliance, it is about control. Of course pain can be interjected at any point if necessary, but control isn't obtained through pain.

Very good point!

That is why I say it isn't about pain compliance, it is about control. Of course pain can be interjected at any point if necessary, but control isn't obtained through pain.

That's a good saying. Think I'll steal it. :D

I get your point, but could you give some specific examples so I make sure I understand? Always looking to learn something. :)

I think there has to be a bit of contact to get that across to somebody who has never really been hit for real. Not excessive of course, that would just be stupid; but enough for the concept to click that this is GOING to hurt someone if done for real.



Quite true, this is why we practice full contact stuff on our kick-shields, full contact to another person's body, the way we do it, is going to break bones, on a kick shield, it's going to knock you back a few steps and make you think a bit. One of the guys kicked me in the stomach by accident while sparring a couple of months back, he got past my block and it hurt, my god it hurt and he didn't do it very hard at all it was just a well timed, well placed kick, but my stomach killed for two hours. I stepped back into it and give it back a bit but I hate to think what he'd have done to me if he'd gone full power.

That's a good saying. Think I'll steal it. :D

I get your point, but could you give some specific examples so I make sure I understand? Always looking to learn something. :)

It is hard to explain... :) Much easier to demonstrate. However, I will try to ramble about a few physiological things.

Take joint locks for example. You can lock someone up and not apply it until is painful. An outside wrist twist is a fantasticly simple example. Yes, there is a point that it can hurt, but the lock is on before the pain happens (if done correctly).

These things work alot like twisting a chain. The chain can be twisted until all the segments are locked up and the chain become rigid. The body does the same thing. However, pain occurs when the limit has been overextended.

Often pain is applied when whatever is being done is applied incorrectly and is forced. The pain causes them to submit, reinforcing the idea that it was done correctly.

Take joint locks for example. You can lock someone up and not apply it until is painful.

These things work alot like twisting a chain. The chain can be twisted until all the segments are locked up and the chain become rigid. The body does the same thing. However, pain occurs when the limit has been overextended.

OK, we're on the same page. I call this the difference between mechanical and neurological pressure. We can lock up or takedown someone using just mechanics. It controls them, but may not hurt. But if we take the pressure (leverage, power of strike, etc.) further, the pain begins and nerves transmit pain signals to the brain.

Example: I use a standing armbar to take someone to the gound, and maintain the hold (mechanical). If the opponent gets it and submits, I go no further. But if he continues to resist, I can apply pressure to the elbow, thus threatening to hyperextend it. This causes pain (neurological), and in a training setting he taps out. Sound right? (You're helping me clarify something for myself here).

OK, we're on the same page. I call this the difference between mechanical and neurological pressure. We can lock up or takedown someone using just mechanics. It controls them, but may not hurt. But if we take the pressure (leverage, power of strike, etc.) further, the pain begins and nerves transmit pain signals to the brain.

Example: I use a standing armbar to take someone to the gound, and maintain the hold (mechanical). If the opponent gets it and submits, I go no further. But if he continues to resist, I can apply pressure to the elbow, thus threatening to hyperextend it. This causes pain (neurological), and in a training setting he taps out. Sound right? (You're helping me clarify something for myself here).

Sounds spot on to me! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif The ability to apply pain (or in effect let them apply pain to themselves) is a bonus but must never be relied up as a founding principle to build upon. Of course IMO.

That is why I firmly believe that when someone is good, they can subdue someone without causing pain and at the same allow the attacker to inflict pain upon themselves. It is simply how hungry for pain is the attacker. Essentially, they hurt themselves.

IMO, when things are done correctly it doesn't matter if they have an intolerance to pain or are hopped up on drugs, because body mechanics work and are consistent.

Greetings – Contact is a very broad term.
We live in a physical realm, you can not
Learn to interact in this realm without Physical
Contact.

We can not learn to strike objects by striking the air,
This is the function of makiwara.

We can not learn to use the force of our opponent
Against him without contact , which allows us to
Feel the interactions of these forces (theirs and ours).
This is the function of Push hands or kakie

We must condition the mind to remain focused
And Practice to learn to breath correctly regardless
Of circumstance, this is the function of sanchin and
Shime testing .

We must discipline the body and condition it
To withstand the demands of our training regimen ,
This is hojo-undo and limb / torso conditioning.

Yet even with all this mentioned, I do not think I have
Answered your question, I believe you are asking
How hard , I strike my students, or have them strike
In kumite or training drills,

My answer to this aspect, is that hard contact is
Not necessary if you are training hard using the
Above methods. I expect my student to use control,
And respect, and to not harm each other while training.

But then, I train for duration ( of my life) , and not for
The short term goal of ring action, from which most soon retire
(often with chronic injury) .

I have found that training takes its toll on the body
Over time regardless of hard contact in Kumite, but
IMO Hard contact leads to greater injury then necessary
to learn to defend oneself , and ultimately to burnout.

So it is a trade off, you can punish your body
Relentlessly for a short period of time ,
Or you can train for longevity.

I choose longevity, and would rather fade away
Then burn out : )

Rust never sleeps, but a good coat of primer and some
paint does help.

Romney^..^

Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

Alot

Alot

Alot of both

We aint here to learn Ballet...........

How much contact do you train with?

Both very little and pretty hard

How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

I'm not really into the "full contact" a.k.a. "tough" game , i love to train on things that involve balance and very little/light contact.

Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

For bujinkan i think it's a mix of hard and soft indeed , but that could be just me ;)

My contact in training varies depending who I am in front of and what we are doing. I general reflect back on my opponent what they are giving out. Some people don't like to play rough. Also when training self-defenses I like to go slow and easy until I feel comfortable then progress harder and faster to make good muscle memory and have confidence in the technique. I don't think that you can do it at full force with out the very real threat of life and limb.

-How much contact do you train with?

I train from no contact (forms, katas) to full contact (with some protection gear).

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

For me pain is a great teacher (empty hand, sticks, and other tools). I have practiced air karate and full contact MA. I prefer the contact. You get a better feel for the technique. You learn to deal with the pain. You get an idea of how much you can take and dish out.

Ed Parker "To hear is to disbelieve, to see is to be deceived.....feeling is believing!"

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

I am not sure if it's balanced, but I do practice both hard and soft contact.
Hard blocks and strikes with take downs.
Soft blocks and strikes with take downs.

Some of the techniques require a partner to cooperate for safety reasons.
Other techniques we go slow for the muscle to encode the moves into memory.
We hit the bags and mitts hard.
We hit each other hard (depends on the studio I go to).

If a person wants to learn MA for self defense I currently lean toward physical contact.

If a person wants to learn a sword art like using the katana, iaido is wonderful, but there is no real physical contact (until you add the aikido moves..hehe).

Martial Arts training is obviously a physical activity and its going to involve contact. My questions are as follows:

-How much contact do you train with?

-How much contact is necessary to make the training worthwhile?

-Do you include a balance of both hard and soft contact or is it mostly geared towards one in particular?

I train with as much contact as my training partner is willing to go with. I take into account the skill level of my partner and our relative size and strength, but for the most part if you want to spar hard I'll spar hard. If you want to spar soft I'll spar soft.

Worthwhile is a nebulous term. How much contact you need in your training is entirely dependent on what objective you're training to reach. If you want to be a good fighter than you need to trin with medium to hard contact as often as possible. If you want to be good at point fighting tournaments than you need to traing light contact point sparring. If you want to be a great fencer then you need to fence under the conditions that you will compete.

I don't fight at heavy contact without protective gear anymore. I've had broken ribs in the past as well as a few concussion(Football, karate, and an IED in Iraq) have left me very protective of the little gray matter I have remaining so now I gear up.

Mark